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WCW PPV Main Events

> Hi Scott,
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>  
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> We all know about post 1994 WCW PPVs having pretty terrible main events and you generally tuned in just for the undercard, but surely there were exceptions to the rule? Were there any WCW PPV main events that weren't a complete shambles? Do you have any favourites?
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> I've only seen a small portion of WCW's PPVs so thought it best to ask someone in the know.
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>  

Flair v Bret from Souled Out 98 was really good, for one.  Plus there was a good six man at Slamboree 97 with the nWo v Horsemen.  I'm sure there's more I'm forgetting. 

Comments

  1. I immediately think of the four-way match with Randy Savage as the guest referee from Spring Stampede 1999.

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  2. Halloween Havoc 1998 - DDP v Goldberg

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  3. I thought Fall Brawl 96 with the Sting walkout was good, mostly for the angle.

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  4. I would put that up too. For some reason I was thinking Warrior/hogan went on last, but it didn't. Best match of Goldberg's career, probably because it was meticulously planned out by DDP

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  5. Yup, this was the first one I thought of.

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  6. The Royal Rumble/ War games hybrid main event from Uncensored 97 with the awesome ending

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  7. The main event of Souled Out was a Lex Luger/Randy Savage splintered nWo clusterfuck.



    Lord knows why WCW thought they should end with that instead of showing off their brand new acquisition at the height of his value.

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  8. DDP v Goldberg at Halloween Havoc 1998 is pretty good.

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  9. Really? I didn't see that one, though I remember ordering the show...

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  10. http://www.rspwfaq.net/2012/05/assorted-may-per-view-countdown-wcw_19.html



    You didn't particularly care for that 6 man match or Slamboree 97 in general.

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  11. Extant1979 - Mr. Cable AccessDecember 21, 2014 at 4:24 PM

    Doesn't count if you ordered it live.

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  12. Goldberg v Bret Hart at Starrcade 1999 isn't bad until the overbooked ending.

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  13. Tune into Nitro to find out!

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  14. I always thought Kevin Greene was not half bad in that Slamboree 1997 match, his promos weren't bad either actually.

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  15. Goldberg/Steiner had pretty good chemistry together and a shame we never got a full blown main event feud between the two. They had a good match in 2000 at Fall Brawl, I believe and Steiner also had a good match with Booker at the PPV where he won the tite and another good one with DDP in 2001.

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  16. Greed actually has a couple great matches on the undercard--the cruiserweight singles and tag matches and a weirdly strong opener between Jason Jet and Kwee Wee.

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  17. I was a huge mark for EZ Money and a shame he didn't achieve more.

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  18. Savage and Flair from Superbrawl 6?'

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  19. Bret/Benoit was also a good one where Bret won the title at Mayhem, but disappointing given they just had a ***** match a monnth earlier.

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  20. Just watched that show yesterday and the commentators pushed him to the moon. He probably would have been built to a great match with Shane Helms if the company hadn't folded so soon after.

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  21. I watched the Owen tribute last night for the first time in a while.

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  22. Savage/ddp spring stampede 97

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  23. ddp/goldberg fer ser hh98

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  24. It's a shame we never got to see that. I believe EZ could have gotten over in the same way Tajiri and RVD got over in 2001, so it's sadly understandable that WWF didn't sign him after the buyout because he most likely would've threatened a lot of guys spots.

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  25. What was the buyrate for that show, you remember? It'd be interesting if they did a decent number given they were pushing a hot new act to the main event and the world title wasn't defended on the show.

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  26. scott in 1997 was a pretty terrible recapper.

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  27. How does that hold up?

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  28. From memory it seemed like a fun main event and one of the rare nWo shows where they actually sent the fans home happy.

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  29. Yeah - sorry - I misread it originally.

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  30. the show was "advertised" as having 3 main events which back than they didnt do as much as today fwiw.

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  31. Flair/Savage GAB 95 is solid.
    Giant/Sting Slamboree 96 is fun.
    Bash 96 is of course historic and must see...
    War Games 96 again for history and the angle.
    Uncensored 97, more for what happens AFTER the main event.
    DDP/Savage Spring Stampede 97.
    The aforementioned Slamboree 97 six man.
    DDP/Goldberg Havoc 98.

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  32. Bret was finally getting in a groove in WCW of putting on descent matches where it looked like he gave a shit, than boom goldberg kicks him into next decade literally. I wonder if in 2000 if Bret was healthy if maybe we could have gotten much more out of him? than eventually do his WWF return in '02. Him vs Shawn woulda done some business.

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  33. My Roku comes with a button right on the remote for Netflix, as well as Hulu Plus & VUDU. WWE needs to get with these hardware manufacturers and see how much it costs for that button. At the very least get their logo on the boxes like all those guys do. Work out a deal for the network to be preloaded. Get a paper insert in the box for every Roku, bluray player, XBox, PS4--offering a discount, or even a free trial week/month. Why isn't there an insert in every WWE DVD & bluray case? Was there anything in the box if you bought WWE 2K15? There should have been.

    When I bought my Roku there were inserts offering 5 free movies on VUDU, a free movie on MGO, and a free trial for Hulu Plus. WWE needs to get in on that.

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  34. MikeyMike, JuggernautDecember 21, 2014 at 5:11 PM

    I didn't mind The Fall Brawl 97 WarGames outside of the Hennig turn.

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  35. Bret/Angle would have made me giddy.

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  36. Agreed. I like Mongo, but I definitely think Greene would have been a better choice for a Horseman.

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  37. Actually, he was one of the guys along with Mike Sanders and Lash Leroux who got picked up in the WCW purchase and sent to the HWA developmental territory. Wikipedia says he was released in July 2002.

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  38. Greed isn't the worst show in the world. It's not great, but it's not as bad as that era would suggest.

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  39. these matchups all assuming brets decline in health is all goldberegs fault. (which i admit its fun to blame him for ending my favorites career)

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  40. This was one of my favorite WCW shows from top to bottom. I can watch the whole thing without skipping matches.

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  41. If the Owen/concussion thing hadn't have happened, I'm pretty sure Bret would have been back in the WWF ring as soon as WCW closed up shop, but in a world where the Owen incident took place and Bret was still healthy, I imagine Bret would have ended up in TNA along with Sting.

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  42. idk by '02 and '03 wasn't relationship getting a lil better? wasnt there a bret dvd in '02 or something?

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  43. Booker T and Kevin. Nash had a cage match that was good. Not sure it's a main event but Goldberg and Scott Steiner had a badass brawl too.

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  44. It was in '05/06 I think, It took quite a few years before Bret/Vince were on speaking terms again.

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  45. Booker was bringing the goods on a regular basis in WCW, which is weird because as soon as he went to WWF, his ring work seriously declined.

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  46. Booker got a lot of heat for working too stiff with Austin so I guess he just went down the cautious/don't try and step on anyone's toes from that point on.

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  47. 20$ said it did better than wm 13 at least.

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  48. hogan/rodman v lugar/giant was pretty epic

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  49. Virgil's Gimmick TableDecember 21, 2014 at 5:46 PM

    DDP vs Goldberg and DDP vs Savage were both awesome.

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  50. late 2000/2001 wcw was awesome

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  51. Vader vs. Hogan - SuperBrawl V

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  52. Because Savage is a draw and Flair and Hart aren't. Didnt Bischoff have that famous quote where he said only Hogan, Savage and Piper had ever drawn any money and that's why they were always in the main event.

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  53. That's why Bischoff is in the business of selling beer right now and not in the wrestling business anymore.

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  54. didnt that buyrate do a crazy number???

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  55. Goldberg vs DDP at Halloween Havoc 98, nicely saved the crowd after the disaster of Hogan/Warrior....and of course a snafu with the PPV companies meant most of the audience at home missed it.

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  56. And Bret's concussion.

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  57. Came in here to post just that. SK didn't like it but I found it a lot of fun, and DDP winning the title is a great moment.

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  58. i dont know if it was the main event, but it was sure good. 3 count v the jung dragons in a gold record ladder match (winner retrieved 3 counts famed and much deserved gold record "forget platiinum" - evan karagis) I know it was on the same ppv in 2000 as the battle for the rights to the word "T" between Booker (lost his street cred and the word T at the time) vs. Big "T". If you mine right in WCW 2000 you find some gold!

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  59. Yes, 3 Count vs Jung Dragons main evented all the shows all over the country, which is why WCW is bankrupt today.

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  60. yes it made a lot of money for the company

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  61. it was super epic when Tank Abbot was 3 count's #1 fan!!! wasnt he paid like 2 million$ to parade around all year and make an ass out of himself??? Nothing beats his Match Vs Big Al Skins on a Pole stipulation (winner takes down the leather jacket off the pole). He not only retrieved the leather jacket but took a knife to Al's throat yelling "I'm going to fcuking KILL YOU!" audibly. That always on his feet sharp thinking Schiavone saved the day by saying "Tank was merely going to shave Al's beard off", problem was Big Al had no beard and was as clean shaven as a man in a Gilette commercial. LOL WCW 2000.

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  62. still a very solid match to this day. its on youtube...

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  63. yea right when the ship was turning they went out of business. 2001 was off to a smoking start as far as ppvs go.

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  64. There was a great Flair / Piper match on that show with Flair bumping like a maniac to have a good match with his old buddy.

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  65. I wouldn't go that far. They were still pushing guys like Roadwarrior Animal and Rick Steiner as something meaningful in 2001.

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  66. LOL why u mad bro?

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  67. Really good?? I love Bret and Flair but that Souled Out match was a total rehash of their 1992 title match....right down to having the exact same finish (superplex->sharpshooter).

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  68. LOL - TJ based on Danimal's link...in the comments...

    "I think Tyler Black/Seth Rollins will have the hardest time getting over no matter what they do with him since he's such a bland guy overall. I mean despite being a former ROH champ most consider his singles run there a failure due to the fans not connecting with him.





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    Share ›

    Ry Murphy johntcole • 3 years ago

    He needs a mouthpiece, for sure. Pairing him up with a spunky Diva like Kaitlin or someone would help him out tremendously. He's got good body language charisma in his matches, which is more important since he won't have much mic time to get himself over initially, but he'll be a Justin Gabriel in the midcard for a long while without someone to help him out."

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  69. What about when Hogan pushed the Giant off the top of the building after the EPIC monster truck battle and then the Giant came back and beat Hogan "right here in this very ring" for the title? Best main event EVER!!!

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  70. And you're not exaggerating it's almost identical. They must have been competing to see who could come closest to wrestling the same match.

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  71. WCW was like a reward for guys who worked hard and were draws earlier in their career. Now they can coast and make the easy money.

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  72. Even if that's true, that means it's an issue that's outside of the consumer's hands.

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  73. Goldberg vs. DDP, Halloween Havoc 1998
    Savage vs. DDP in '97 (I think that was main event?)

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  74. Or 100,000 people who wanted to spend $55 once as opposed to $10 a month.

    I made this point before. If you're a person who orders WM and maybe one other PPV a year (on average) with no interest in the archives, the Network makes no sense for you.

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  75. This, again, wilfully ignores that the two services are designed to appeal to different audiences.

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  76. A healthy/happy Bret Hart in 2001/02 would have been the perfect guy to lead the Invasion of WWF

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  77. Stan, do you not understand the term "broadband infrastructure"? I'm talking about the technology and internet access. I'm not comparing WWE Network and Netflix subscribers.

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  78. I thought his couple of promos as leader of the nWo were pretty bad, I can't see that working. He's kind of dry to start with but worse when he's not feeling what he's saying. His Anti-America/Austin/Shawn stuff was great but he probably would have just gone through the motions as a heel.

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  79. Whenever the stroke was, that's when Vince and Bret made up.

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  80. I thought you meant the Owen is Raw tribute.

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  81. Is that the one where the Wolf-PAC, who never put anyone over and killed the company, each took a fall on the finish for Poor Ric and Roddy?

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  82. That WAS pretty awesome. I remember when that cut out and was shown the next night. Was that a planned ploy? Cause that's some cold blooded shit right there.

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  83. The Network was free in November.

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  84. That was pretty cool. I like how it put over The Giant as a completely unstoppable monster. No one knew who he was. No one knew where he came from. And he couldn't be stopped. Man vs gravity - gravity almost always wins.

    But not against the Giant. Good times.

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  85. His stroke was 2002. I think it still took a few more years for Bret and Vince to make up. Bret didn't initially make up with Vince because life was too short etc but made up with him because WWE was about to produce a burial DVD of him.

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  86. We knew who he was. He was Andre's baby boy.

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  87. What didn't you like about the turn?

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  88. If Hennig had took Arn's dog named Spot's spot or Arn's liver spot's spot then I would have been fine with the turn. But the fact he took took Arn's spot just left a bad taste in my mouth.

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  89. Nope. WCW screwed up by having the show go over without telling the cable companies so they cut the PPV feed just before the main event was to start. So they had to go ahead and show it for free.

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  90. I wonder if DDP/Malone vs Hogan/Rodman the next year did better.

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  91. Giant and Hogan fought many times but Havoc 95 was probably the least sucky match they had. Either that or Hog Wild where Show played dead for 30 mins after taking a belt shot.

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  92. Hogan's the perfect testament to this. I loved the "Hollywood" promos and ring entrances, but his matches were the laziest, most uninspired crap in wrestling history. At the time I thought "well he's pretty old, what should I expect?" But in 2002 when he returned to WWF, you can say whatever you want about those matches but you can't say the effort wasn't there. He was definitely trying in 2002 (even if the execution wasn't really there). That's one of the many differences between working for Vince and working for Eric: Vince demanded you give it your all, Eric was happy if you let him drink beer and ride motorcycles with you.

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  93. I'm so flabbergasted by this that I think at least a few thousand of them had to have ordered thinking it was free, given how much free Survivor Series was promoted. Maybe I think too little of my fellow wrestling fan, but cmon, you met some of these people?

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  94. I wouldnt doubt. Its unbelievable how bad that buyrate was

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  95. A man is more than his father, you know.

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  96. Not being obtuse but what do you mean? What left a bad taste by Hennig taking Arn's spot before the turn?

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  97. It was stupid for two reasons:


    1) From a creative standpoint it was bad because Arn retired a couple of weeks before the PPV where he delivered a very moving promo where he introduced Hennig as his replacement and Hennig turning on the Horsemen basically shat on everything the Horsemen had built up at that point.


    2) From a business POV it was also bad because there was no reason nWo couldn't have done the job here since nothing was on the line. Plus if they kept Horsemen strong, WCW could have milked a couple more months of Hogan vs Flair and Hogan vs Hennig. It was also a dumb move on Hennig's part because he went from potential main eventer as a Horsemen to a midcard nWo goof.

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  98. I seem to recall Nash talking about wrestling Hogan and how he cranked on a move pretty tightly and Hogan said to him "Easy brother, we've already got their money"

    Pretty much describes how a lot of those guys on guaranteed contracts wrestled.

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  99. Ha, Hogan's awesome. He has no shame.

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  100. Probably because The Giant was pretty lean in '95 and could still move around at a decent speed, but slowly became a bigger fat ass as time went by.

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  101. You forgot the biggest part! The YETAAYYYY!! That character drew so much money that Ted Turner had to build a second CNN tower to hold all of it.

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  102. Yeah those 2001shows had solid wrestling. Which is funny bc the promotion was dying and everyone knew it.

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  103. Mmmmmmm. Beer

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  104. Heck I didn't think Luger/Giant GAB '96 was all that bad.

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  105. 1) Hence great emotional heel turn. One that 16 years later elicits the response the bookers wanted from you. Where is the negative? Everyone was joining the nWo and this allowed the turn to actually have resonance. I have no idea how long it was planned though.

    2) Not gonna argue this too much...too subjective and unknown. We don't know if Hennig would have been a main eventer. In fact pretty sure he wasn't going to as the Horsemen weren't for long. Should nWo have jobbed? I dunno. Whatever. Personally I think the emotional turn was a much more satisfying "event" than just another match. But that's just me - again too subjective.

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  106. It makes sense to go with what works. What doesn't though is not building other guys to someday take those spots.

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  107. Yes, it automatically elicits a response because it was stupid and counter productive and it should serve a lesson to future bookers on not what to do. Plus everyone joining the nWo was actually the problem with the nWo and why the faction became watered down the way it did.



    Also it gave everyone a bad taste in their mouth because a week later Nash basically mocked Arn's heartfelt promo. That would have been fine if the endgame was the Horsemn getting their revenge at the PPV by destroying the nWo, but it didn't happen. Instead nWo humiliated the Horsemen and then beat them showing that they were ineffective threats. There's no story there and no way for a company to draw money based of that story.


    This was akin to WM19 where HHH told Booker that he was beneath him and then proves himself right by actually beating him when common sense dictated that Booker should have won.

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  108. i guess my hot box was exempt bc the ppv didnt cut off at my house in nj, but i remember the controversy and how ppl were fuming online.

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  109. his '02 run he actually wrestled younger guys who could carry him to better matches as well.

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  110. hahaha if he said that i'm sorry that is fucking hilarious and awesome!

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  111. yea they actually were hinting at and pushing that he was the spawn of Andre haha.

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  112. was it the belt or jimmy harts megaphone??? my memory is a lil fuzzy, but it was great how he sold it and laid in the ring during hulks bday party right after he jobbed haha.

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  113. i think that show crushed as well. espec. with the bulls jazz rodman malone connection. Malone gave the funniest looking diamond cutters.

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  114. also Flair was about to go on his loooong hiatus, so the horsemen were done.

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  115. didnt flair run to the back trying to start a real fight when that Nash Syxx n Hall goof on the horseman was running?? They blindsided them with that video package is what ive heard.

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  116. he was living in a complete haze when delivered those promos bc of the side effects of his nasty concussion. It wasnt until like 3 or 4 months later when he returned on a random thunder where he sounded competent and delivered that great promo on goldberg and his big "potato" he gave him.

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  117. i guess there are alot of ppl outside the us that are not as astute as Scott and the rest of the Canadians and some English folk on this board that have the network no problem.

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  118. That was probably the most depressing show I've ever seen.The beating goes on forever and ever and it's brutal. It wasn't even the nWo A-Team, I think their team had Bagwell and Konnan on it.

    I believe the original ending to the Nash mockery promo was the Horsemen running in and running them off, but that got nixed at the last minute. As ziggaman said, Flair apparently did go ballastic backstage because it made them all look so bad to just take that shit and not break everybody's legs.

    It doesn't help either that the Hennig turn set up a match between Flair and Hennig at Havoc that Flair didn't win, followed by another Hennig win at WW3. Never got revenge. I guess a year later Flair beat Bischoff at the SECOND ATTEMPT which was some small measure of revenge. Blah.

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  119. Think it did about an 0.5/0.6 or something. Most non-Hogan PPV's did about that during 96/97

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  120. Could he drink as well as Mongo could though? That was the criteria.

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  121. That match seemed to be on Nitro every single week back then as well.

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  122. That's not actually what happened. Another one of those "Death of WCW" rumors that persist contrary to information actually reported in The Observer at the time.

    WCW did request clearance from the PPV companies for Halloween Havoc 1998 to go long, several weeks in advance (which is one of the reasons they were filling it out with those interview segments). They'd had previous issues with the shows running long (Halloween Havoc 1996 and Road Wild 1997 both ran slightly long and got cut off early).

    The issue was that a good chunk of local cable companies controlled access to those feeds via timers and didn't override the automated systems that typically cap the broadcast of a PPV feed to about a three hour maximum -- it primarily impacted cable companies that didn't include the immediate replay as part of the purchase.

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  123. Yeah, that's a really great show overall.



    Besides the usual suspects that have great matches, Hogan/Rodman vs Luger/Giant actually has a sense of spectacle about it and is not embarrassing, Flair/Piper do a good job, and that Glacier/Cat vs Mortis/Wrath match is extremely entertaining.

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  124. It's okay for what it is. The problem was between Mongo's heel turn and Bischoff getting powerbombed off of the stage, it felt a bit anti-climactic.

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  125. Bash at the Beach 1997 did a good number, but Bash at the Beach 1998 definitely surpassed it.

    BATB 1998 did close to the numbers of Starrcade 1997 IIRC on PPV, so it's at least the second most bought WCW PPV ever.

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  126. yes bash at the beach 98 had more than 100k more buys than 97

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  127. Spring Stampede 1997 and Great American Bash 1997 both did about 200,000 buys, pretty solid numbers for 1997.



    Starrcade, Halloween Havoc, Uncensored, Bash at the Beach, and Superbrawl all surpassed them though -- although WCW really got hottest near the end of the year.

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  128. That's a really good match actually, as long as you watch the non-Turner Home Video version, which does all kinds of crazy panning and cropping in everything but the wide shots to block out the blood and Flair's ass.

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  129. I love that angle. I think that's kind of where Hollywood Hogan stopped getting 'cool heel heat' too and started getting "I hate your guts" heat. Making fun of the Savage/Liz divorce, spitting on her and then everyone tearing up the set was a pretty good visual.

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  130. Yeah, just a great match -- and really the kind of match WCW needed to be putting on in their main events to compete with the WWF at that point. The WCW undercards were light years ahead of the WWF at that point, if they could put something passable together for a main event once in awhile they'd really had something, but they seemed to always close out the PPVs on a sour note.

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  131. Yeah, to say Hogan was mailing it in would be an understatement, although it helped that he was working against younger guys in 2002 too -- his matches with Triple H and Undertaker were atrocious.


    Hogan worked hard in 1994 to early 1995 to try and win over WCW crowds, but after the Vader feud until he left, I don't think he really had one strong one on one match in terms of the work.



    I guess it shows how much personality matters in wrestling -- his shows almost always popped huge buy-rates despite the fact he did nothing in the ring.

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  132. yea hulk was too busy getting his win back that he went way over the allotted time with warrior just in his entrance alone...

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  133. On a side-note, while DDP/Savage are decent matches at Spring Stampede and Great American Bash (I'd go about *** 1/4 to *** 1/2 on each). I think that Halloween Havoc match is by far their strongest outing (def more like ****+).

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  134. Besides Japan, Hogan was always about kicks and punches and sometimes a bodyslam or a back suplex or so. I never saw a big difference between his 80s WWF or 90s WCW or 00s WWE stint.

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  135. Yeah, his schtick was always the same.

    The big thing I notice though was his foot speed -- in 1985 in particular he was more like a Goldberg/Warrior type, just a lot more kinetic in the ring. He did everything a lot faster and with more intensity.

    His matches really started to settle into formula once you got to 1988, although obviously he was still pretty athletic.

    He started to slow down noticeably in the fall of 1991 I think -- when he started dropping muscle mass around the Undertaker feud. I would say that his late 1991/1992/1993 matches don't differ much from his WCW ones at all.

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  136. Same here. I was watching on my "non-licensed" box in Orlando and had no idea what people were talking about.

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  137. Magic cable boxes. That's so 90s! :)

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  138. Oh, it absolutely was anti-climatic. To the point where I think they should've just went home early on the PPV to sell the "the boss just got powerbombed off the stage" angle.

    Sure, it screws the PPV customer, but they'd get in that business soon enough anyway. Run Giant/Luger dark match main event for the live crowd, and then run it for real on Nitro the next night and give em whatever time they need to do it. You know what the final segment was on the followup Nitro? Mean Gene announcing the 3 man team for Bash at the Beach. Hell, with Lex now officially part of the team, maybe Hall and Nash do a run-in there to screw him out of the title.

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  139. Yup, ZERO reason Bagwell, Konnan, and Syxx couldn't have done the job there. Should've been the only time where the babyfaces won the coin toss and it's a prolonged Horsemen beatdown on Bagwell, then Konnan, then Syxx, and then Nash walks out rather than enters the cage. Horsemen leave the B-Team laying, win on a figure four, a crossface, and a torture rack from Mongo or something. Good guys get the big win... you can run the Hennig turn later. But you can't run that finish at that show after that angle. You just can't.

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  140. Meadow Woods reprazent yo. I didn't watch the show but no one i knew had any issues in Orlando. Actually people were pissed at buying a show and then getting the match free.

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  141. Well the thing was...hey look over there...

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  142. Bischoff was such a beaten puppy, he only thought Vinces guys were good. meanwhile a company with Goldberg, DDP, Steiner , Booker etc on top is one witha chance at competing.

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  143. And of course this was before The Shield made it clear he was earmarked for greatness. I was right about the body language though. He's pretty inarguably the BITW in WWE right now.

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  144. I think if you have to use a vpn and a wrong US address to get the network where you live, there IS a problem, but it is nour your fault.

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  145. It was when he debuted at King of the Ring and dropped Austin wrong on the announce table. Austin was really paranoid about his neck (rightfully so), I'm sure your right that it had a lot to do with it.


    Then again, all those WCW guys had to eat shit during the Invasion.

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  146. how THAT feud didn't generate millions is beyond me. Oh right ... Hogan.

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  147. WCW was weird because Bischoff was SO obsessed with television - he worked for a television company - that Nitro was by far more important than pay per views. Hogan, especially after dropping the title to Sting, was regularly not on pay per views. Random matches like Bret/Flair, Luger/Savage or that bizarre GAB 98 headlined shows. The big matches like Luger/Hogan 97, Goldberg/Hogan 98, and the Goldberg/Hart rematch nWo 2000 reveal in 99 all happened on Nitro.


    WWF needed ppv revenue to operate, WCW needed television revenue to keep their corporate masters happy. Totally different philosophy.

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