Skip to main content

Michaels/Sid question

Hey Scott, all this talk of Sid and Shawn on the blog got me thinking. We all know the stories of Michaels being difficult behind the scenes, especially when it came to dropping titles, but I don't remember ever hearing anything about him having a problem losing the belt to Sid at Survivor Series '96, which seems really out of character all things considered. Its hard to believe Shawn was totally cool with a 7-8 month title reign. Was it because he promised the belt back at the Rumble?
 
-Joey

Yeah, he was friends with Sid, and the idea was always to build up to him regaining the title in his hometown at the Rumble.  

Comments

  1. Reigns bashing. All is right with the world.

    ReplyDelete
  2. ARRRRGH THE BARBARIANFebruary 28, 2015 at 3:44 PM

    I think I'd rather veto a job to Taker than Sid.

    ReplyDelete
  3. The glimpse into the mindset of some wrestling fans that we get via these emails is kinda scary sometimes

    ReplyDelete
  4. Love it when Scott trolls his readers.

    ReplyDelete
  5. Wyatt vs Undertaker is going to suck. Worst match of tie year level of suckage.

    ReplyDelete
  6. Was WWF as a brand drawing at the time or it was it still very much on the shoulders of the champ to bring in the crowds? Was HBK a decent draw? I don't think I've ever seen it discussed.

    ReplyDelete
  7. I get the feeling there is no long term booking, they just make it up as they go each month. Short sighted goals rather than the long term and it will bite them in the ass once Cena leaves (if ever) and they've not built anyone else up.

    ReplyDelete
  8. Diesel/Mabel outdrew Shawn/Vader at Summerslam. Aside from that though most business went up from 1995 but not by much.


    Raw's lowest ever rating was headlined by World Champ HBK vs Stone Cold Steve Austin so these things are hard to pinpoint.

    ReplyDelete
  9. If they'd restricted his program with HHH to just the Summerslam match it wouldn't have done him any harm at all. Remember, Brock dominated the match and won clean by submission. Drawing it out was the problem.

    ReplyDelete
  10. So your a Roman Reigns fan?

    ReplyDelete
  11. Reigns already HAS run through the entire roster, and still nobody cares.

    ReplyDelete
  12. According to Bob Holly Sid was not a fan of HBK, Hall and Nash.

    ReplyDelete
  13. HEY Brey got a nice rub from cena and he'll get a nice rub from taker. He must be pretty excited from all the rubbing.

    ReplyDelete
  14. Quit dodging the question. :P

    ReplyDelete
  15. Dougie is going to no sell your smiley face.

    ReplyDelete
  16. Shawn was also champion when the nWo angle was beginning, so while Raw managed to get a small streak going (from April 15 to May 13, the two last weeks with Raw getting a big ratings difference for some reason), by May WCW got on a hot streak and dominated the ratings for the next 2 years. As far as drawing people to houseshows went, I've seen several people mention that the Diesel reign was terrible from an attendance standpoint, but I'd have to check History of WWE to make sure.

    ReplyDelete
  17. I think he has a lot of upside.

    ReplyDelete
  18. Same reason why Flair dropped the belt to Garvin. He wanted to win it back and knew Sid wasn't going to be a long term champion.

    ReplyDelete
  19. So, if you decide to make a new superstar through Lesnar and Reigns isn't your pick, then who is? Ambrose? Rollins?

    ReplyDelete
  20. He does, but he's WAY OUT OF HIS LEAGUE going up against Lesnar at Wrestlemania. The guy's fanfare going in to this is nearly non-existant.

    ReplyDelete
  21. If Lesnar was undefeated from 2012 until now, it wouldn't change the fact that Reigns is being taken from muscle background character in a 3-man stable to world champion in 3 1/2 months.

    ReplyDelete
  22. I was about to say the same thing. And apparently Bob rode with Sid a lot and knew him pretty well, at that time

    ReplyDelete
  23. I think Shawn was a guy who kept business steady, but not really a "draw" as the word is most often used. He kept people engaged by virtue of being such a great performer, but Shawn being the kind of pretty boy heartthrob that Vince wanted to be wasn't gonna goose any demographics besides young girls.

    ReplyDelete
  24. WM XI also had a slightly bigger buyrate than XII. Funy enough, the February 1996 IYH more than double the rating the previous IYH had (0.75 to a 0.35)!

    ReplyDelete
  25. No he hasn't. He's defeated Orton and Bryan and exchanged wins with Big Show.

    ReplyDelete
  26. I don't even think (in hindsight) Lesnar needed to break the Streak: the Summerslam match alone was enough to get him over as a mega-monster. Even coming off a loss to 'Taker (do the standard destroying of 'Taker the Raw after 'Mania to give him a reason to disappear), would fans (a fair amount of whom have bought into WWE's "wins and losses don't matter") have reacted significantly differently to Lesnar's destruction of Cena? The booking of that match got him over as champ. Just have Paul say "for the past 3 months, my client, Brock Lesnar, has been focused on getting revenge for the only loss that matters: his loss to John Cena at Extreme Rules two years ago." Brock bouncing and smirking in the ring is enough, even though beating 'Taker obviously added to the mystique.



    If Brock was undefeated, Reigns would (/kayfabe) have even less of a chance because of how weakly he has been booked.


    And Bray going over Cena earlier would mean that Bray would have challenged for the title at Summerslam last year right after Cena won the title.

    ReplyDelete
  27. Bryan, who in turn makes the next Superstar a year or so from now.

    Parallel to that you also book the Intercontinental Championship smarter & stronger so that you have a pool of guys you can attempt to elevate in case your top guy gets hurt or doesn't pan out.

    The only guy WWE has booked well over the last year or so is Lesnar, and that's because his deal literally kept him off TV and out of Creative's hands. Seth Rollins & Rusev have been used well, but far from perfectly. Everyone else has been horribly mishandled: even their cash cow John Cena.

    ReplyDelete
  28. If you want to use Brock to give someone the rub, then it should be someone new who hasn't won the world title (the three Shield guys or Wyatt or somebody). If you want the best match possible, then it should be Bryan. Bryan doesn't need the rub, and going over Lesnar wouldn't make him any more over than he already is (or was, until a few weeks ago). That's not an argument against a Bryan/Lesnar match; just saying that he has enough credibility already that he doesn't *need* a rub that big at this point.

    ReplyDelete
  29. He was a poor draw. History (both WWE history and fan history) has re-written him as a big draw and an "icon". At the end of the day, Shawn was an amazing performer and something of a failure as the face of the company.

    ReplyDelete
  30. No matter what they did with Brock, he's a beast because of his history and just look at him.

    Reigns did make the roster his bitch, he was undefeated until February. And he had clean wins over Orton and Rollins, the top heels in the company. He's was constantly built strong, and got the Poochie treatment during his hernia.

    Other than choosing the wrong guy IMO, I don't think they've significantly messed up.

    ReplyDelete
  31. Exactly - the first Trips match was fine, and gave Brock the rub of beating the "biggest" (full-time) name they have. Dragging it out is what killed it.

    ReplyDelete
  32. YankeesHoganTripleHFanFebruary 28, 2015 at 4:43 PM

    I want Roman to beat Brock. I want Cena to beat rusev.....I want to see The Undertaker beat Bray...Most of all...MOST OF ALL I want to see Hunter beat Sting...I want to see the smarks burn. Die in flames.

    ReplyDelete
  33. People tend to forget Shawn's reign went up against the hottest wrestling angle of all time.

    ReplyDelete
  34. I remember seeing an early poster for Survivor Series 96 that featured HBK vs Vader. I know Sid beat Vader at the previous PPV to get the title shot but it seems like Vader may have been the original plan to get the belt until Rumble 97.

    ReplyDelete
  35. I blame the LA crowd. All they had to do was give him the "leave the memories alone" moment! Couldn't they have sucked it up and taken one for the team! ?

    ReplyDelete
  36. That was my point.

    ReplyDelete
  37. It'll make last years match look like 25's.

    ReplyDelete
  38. Where do you go then for mania? I suppose my dream world would have been Cena/Taker, Brock/Rock.

    ReplyDelete
  39. My point was if they wanted Reigns to be the chosen one they could have gone about things much better and if they had, the reactions may have been different.

    No 50/50 booking

    Leave him off the mic or keep things short and simple.

    Again mirror the Corbin push.

    ReplyDelete
  40. I don't know...I think a loss at WM to the obviously old and broken down Undertaker would have dealt Brocks credibility a huge blow.

    ReplyDelete
  41. Big monster whose run through everyone vs guy who has done the same. Seems pretty money making to me.

    ReplyDelete
  42. I say don't even do Taker vs Lesnar. Shit do Cena/taker there.

    ReplyDelete
  43. How about Lesnar vs Ziggler then?

    ReplyDelete
  44. Virgil's Gimmick TableFebruary 28, 2015 at 5:00 PM

    This is the biggest problem with WWE writing. They want all the big fight hype for these matches without actually doing any of the leg work cause WRITING IS HARD!!!

    ReplyDelete
  45. They want to make a hit single without any actual lyrics, instruments, and melody to speak of. They think if they just say something, people will believe it regardless of veracity, and in the internet age that's a really stupid approach.

    ReplyDelete
  46. They're obviously determined to have the match. But if Reigns dosen't manage to build the required momentum going in, they do have the option of putting Brock over, and then having him and Reigns do the big respect thing. I mean, Shawn losing at XI and Rock losing at 2000 didn't do either man any harm in the long run. Reigns getting the title when he's not ready would be more harmful than losing a hard fought battle to Brock and having his eventual title run rolled over until he is ready.

    ReplyDelete
  47. The problem isn't the guy, it's the role and the booking. If Dean Ambrose was being sold as superior to Hulk Hogan and Andre The Giant combined in 1988 while doing his Carrot Top gimmick, people would loathe it.

    If Bryan was being sold as superior to Austin, Rock, Michaels, Sammartino, etc. while doing... Anything, really, people would loathe it.

    Reigns catches the flak, but the bigger problem is that people can see the Next John Cena being built before their eyes. The invincible, infallible, world-beating superman doesn't work in 2015 for anyone over the age of 9.

    ReplyDelete
  48. Damn straight. I don't think they realize how close they are to wrecking any chance for Reigns to ever be taken seriously as a top-level guy. In fact, I'd bet money they don't.

    ReplyDelete
  49. Sure, why not? I can't imagine it ever being believable that Ziggler could beat Lesnar (and you could say that about everyone on the roster of course, but Ziggler with his size and shitty offence is a worse candidate than many) but maybe they could book it like Eddie/Brock, with even more wacky hijinks to justify Ziggler going over.

    ReplyDelete
  50. Yup. Cornette confirmed it in his 1997 timeline shoot.

    ReplyDelete
  51. Where does Ultimate Warrior fit in if he stuck around?


    I think the original original plan was HBK vs Warrior at MSG for Survivor Series.

    ReplyDelete
  52. I don't think they were friends, necessarily. I don't think Shawn or the Kliq had anything against him, though, and when Vince offered to make him the next Hogan and Sid said "HERP DERP NO I WANNA BE A BIG SCARY HEEL" and doubled/tripled down on it, they knew he wasn't a guy who was gonna outpolitic or threaten them.

    ReplyDelete
  53. The think to keep in mind is that at the time, Shawn and the rest of the Clique were huge hypocrites

    ReplyDelete
  54. Nash and HBK were the ones who brought him back in 95.

    ReplyDelete
  55. Big Show to now? You mean Punk to now?

    ReplyDelete
  56. MaffewOfBotchamaniaFebruary 28, 2015 at 5:38 PM

    Nah, he was a ''Also Starring...'' in 1996.

    Interesting to think if HBK could have carried Warrior '96.

    ReplyDelete
  57. Yeah, I think they saw value in having a big, scary dude who could work either role and posed no threat to them.

    ReplyDelete
  58. I think he's gener recognized as having not been great draw as champ, and like cult said, he was going up against the hottest angle ever being run by an organization with much deeper pockets.

    ReplyDelete
  59. I remember there being an urban legend that the Blu Brothers roughed up Shawn and Sid saved him.

    ReplyDelete
  60. I'm on board with your trolling with the exception of the Yankees part.

    ReplyDelete
  61. Harris Boys did fuck him up but Sid didn't save him. The Brothers Harris just decided to not kill him.

    ReplyDelete
  62. Herp and derp are not words.

    ReplyDelete
  63. HowmuchdoesthisguyweighFebruary 28, 2015 at 5:54 PM

    Disagree

    ReplyDelete
  64. Wasn't Bob in that car flipping accident with Sid in mid 97? I know 2 Cold was.

    ReplyDelete
  65. HBK v Austin in late 96 drew a 1.8 rating.

    ReplyDelete
  66. thanks I had no idea really good save there

    ReplyDelete
  67. You got it, bud.

    ReplyDelete
  68. HBK is just the sort of guy to make sure he has a supportive (for him) workplace.

    ReplyDelete
  69. I actually want HHH to beat Sting as well, even though I know it has 0% chance of happening.

    ReplyDelete
  70. I really see both shows as overall being weak, but the December '95 PPV had little momentum going in, while the February '96 card at least had the first ever "is the title shot going to be in doubt for Mania" angle.

    ReplyDelete
  71. Like how he brought in his brother, his brother in law, his other brother in law, his sister..

    ReplyDelete
  72. I think so. Furans and/or Lafaun to?

    ReplyDelete
  73. I don't think anyone here really gives a fuck who goes over in HHH/sting. I think they should put HHH over, actually

    ReplyDelete
  74. Nash told that story ... him and Hall were in Europe or something so Shawn's muscle was gone and he kept mouthing off.

    ReplyDelete
  75. Sid was kind of honorary Cliqiue member - Shawn and Nash talked McMahon into hiring him back in 1995. Vince wanted nothing to do with him after offering him "Hogan's spot" and him declining it, and then the Arn stabbing that basically blackballed him.

    ReplyDelete
  76. Eh. I see where your coming from but people said that about Orton when he turned face and got dumped by evolution then beat by hhh. Reigns is still young. He'll probably be wrestling in his 40's and people will forget by then just like Orton.

    ReplyDelete
  77. Having 8 minutes with fandango?!?

    ReplyDelete
  78. Fat, Ugly Inner-City SweathogFebruary 28, 2015 at 8:17 PM

    Cena vs Taker, Bryan vs HHH, Orton vs Batista, Lesnar vs Punk. But Punk left anyway

    ReplyDelete
  79. Fat, Ugly Inner-City SweathogFebruary 28, 2015 at 8:20 PM

    Brock vs Taker a year early. Undefeated Lesnar vs Streak. Cena vs Rock. Punk vs HHH.

    ReplyDelete
  80. By that same token though, who was gonna draw better against the NWO.

    Shawn didn't make bank, but he starved off bankruptcy in a company with no star power.

    That has to count for something doesn't it?

    ReplyDelete
  81. Bret has nothing to do with this.

    ReplyDelete
  82. Hey, Shawn is the first one today to acknowledge what an asshole he was at the time.

    ReplyDelete
  83. I remember on that "Bret vs Shawn" DVD, Bret openly says he thinks Shawn gets a raw deal over "not drawing as champ" as it didn't matter who was champion, the NWO would still have pushed WCW to the top.

    ReplyDelete
  84. Sid was "easy luggage." I rather seem Vader as champ, but they were never going to let Vader be Vader in the F - so ...

    ReplyDelete
  85. I didn't like Shawn in 1996. I thought he was a girl and had no business with Hogan's title.

    I gained some respect for Shawn with the Mankind match, but really they guy danced and loved to take his pants off. I liked him better as the heel.

    When he came back in 2002, I was still not a Christian but I thought maybe he had at least matured and I likec him a little more.

    Still thought Sid should have been the next Hogan though.

    ReplyDelete
  86. Austin didn't get over until "Bubba" Hart dropped him on his head. Just seeing Austin being tough enough to keep working won me over to him.

    ReplyDelete
  87. Yep that's it really. Even when you could admire his ability to bring the goods in his actual matches, it was difficult to really get into a character who came down to the ring in a little leather cap and would take off his chaps and earrings as "Sexy Boy" played in the background. Shawn was pretty over... with young girls and the gay demographic. But the WWF audience was, and probably always will be, dominated by young males. Shawn was just never gonna win over that demographic entirely with his character being what it was.

    ReplyDelete
  88. I wanted to see Taker with the belt again, but seriously his opponents were Busch league in 1997. He had feuded with Mankind for months. Austin was not ready. Ron Simmons in 1997? Bahaha! Vader in a replacement foregone conclusion match and then jobbing it to Bret. Hindsight as been kinder to the reign as the Mankind match is decent and Vader and Taker have a solid match too in spite of Vader jobbing uselessly. The Simmons match with all the Nation nonsense is what it was and yeah the Bret match was awesome to boot.

    ReplyDelete
  89. Hartkiller really has an unhealthy obsession about this. Everyone needs to ignore him and not engage him in debate so he stops. Plus we need to alert real-life Bret AND Shawn to file restraining orders and hire bodyguards. Bret because he's probably gonna get murdered, and Shawn because he's probably gonna get kidnapped, kept in a well, forced to wear a dress and rub the lotion on its skin.

    ReplyDelete
  90. I just find it funny. The HBK defending is one thing, but there's bringing Bret into every debate.

    ReplyDelete
  91. Stop talking about the dress!

    ReplyDelete
  92. the problem isn't how lesnar or reigns was pushed but that bryan never lost the title and that he came back before the rumble.

    ReplyDelete
  93. My assumption is that they think that their audience believes that wrestling is fake. They do not, to varying degrees. If fans thought it was fake, they would accept that this is just another villain like any other movie and either enjoy the show (ala many of the villain of the week TV shows) or move on. They don't believe or understand why outsiders really believe they understand the business unless they themselves ran a multi billion dollar global corporation. It is hard to respect the opinions of people who criticize one's business acumen without actually being able to match or at least experience said business acumen. Sad but true.

    Not entirely unlike Bossman having a match against Hogan, or anyone paying the least bit of attention to leaping freaking Lanny Poffo.

    ReplyDelete
  94. Well, yes...writing is in fact hard. Hence why you do not have a best seller, been published or even get paid a cent for writing anything. (To be honest, I am assuming some of these. Have you been published or paid for writing?)

    ReplyDelete
  95. It worked for Gwen Stefani so why not?

    ReplyDelete
  96. Then, why build a product on something so scarce? Wrestling existed in a world before scripts. Say bad things about your opponent, shit talk, and make a match. WWE has made this too complicated.

    ReplyDelete
  97. I've bitched about the same thing the second that Streak ended. Sure, they've done a good job and all, but I feel like Scott is no-selling the cache of Brock being "the 1" AND being undefeated in pro wrestling for over a decade. And we could have that if he hadn't lost to Cena & Trips, both of whom, btw, gained nothing from those wins whatsoever besides Hunetr being able to brag to his kids that he beat Lesnar.

    ReplyDelete
  98. The Yankees do a fine job of trolling themselves.

    ReplyDelete
  99. Well
    1) writing is hard
    2) writing for an audience that lies in a gray zone between the mentality of last generation and this one is an exercise in frustration.
    3) you're also writing across cultures since you're a global product.
    4) writing in a committee is an exercise in frustration.
    5) writing in a committee where every action is second guessed, decisions are changed multiple times daily and every move is critiqued is frustrating, difficult, not to mention mentally and emotionally draining.

    ReplyDelete
  100. I don't care how good they've made him look recently. He's 7-3 since returning to the WWE. That is not the record of "the most dominant force in WWE history."

    ReplyDelete
  101. What drives me crazy about Cena winning that first lesnar match is that the whole story between 28 and 29 is cena being down to lead to his triumph in the rematch. They blew the thing in his first ppv after the rock loss at 28. Doesnt have much to overcome after beating a monster like that. So even besides what many think about the misuse of Lesnar they goofed up the whole cena year long story from the start. That match was just awesome best of the modern series between them.

    People would have been so much more into lesnar-taker if he was undefeated upon return. Same as if Punk was still the champion at 29 folks would think "well the streak is over here since he wont stop lesnar or wont win the title"

    ReplyDelete
  102. All true statements which illustrate my point - the current business model of the WWE is that scripting ADDS to the show, but I think it is subtracting from it. When the audience is diverse, the audience is transitioning in taste, part of the audience is a large committee, and the amount of content is greater than the ability to write it, detail-filled scripts are a bad choice. It's easier to get committee agreement on promo bulletpoints or a table of contents for a 25 minute jaw-session in the middle of the ring than on every show detail. Moving back to a "traditional wrestling content creation model" makes more sense, but no one working in WWE creative is going to suggest it because that will cost them their jobs.

    ReplyDelete
  103. Eh. Both have pros and cons. Frankly I'm more interested in how it works for international markets.

    ReplyDelete

Post a Comment