Hi Scott - Thanks again for passing along this article to be published at Place to Be Nation. We really appreciate your partnership. Here's the link for your readers:
It's a little unfair to call the "We're running out of time!" the "nWo finish". That one was a mainstay of Crockett programming and probably other territories.
Yeah, that's been part of TV wrestling for a pretty long time. Using it for a show-ending brawl (no match, no chance for a proper "close") is okay. Using it to non-finish a match is bad booking.
To be fair, DQs in three-ways aren't an issue as long as they CONTINUE THE MATCH with the remaining participants (like they would have done in ECW). In fact, having a three-way where you COULD have the scenario of, say, the champion snookering the referee into DQ'ing one of his opponents Eddie Guerrero-style in order to improve his odds would make for a REAL interesting dynamic. It's annoying that WWE doesn't get this and has never played around with a rule like that, AFAIK.
Yeah, I think distraction finishes are the worst. Especially the ones where the heel/face leaves the ring to chase his arch-nemesis and forgets he had a match and gets counted out. In this age, finding creative ways to end matches has dried up. I think RAW and Smackdown have, over the years, spoiled the average fan with giving away major mid-card and main event caliber matches on free TV. I understand that you have 12 PPV's to book around. Back when there were only 4-5 PPV a year, and before RAW, you could have the one weekly feature match, which was used to set up feuds. These usually ended in DQ. I was fine with that. But now you have major matches 6-9 times PER SHOW. It sucks, because you know it's not going back to the way it was. But when two guys are facing each other on PPV, and you saw this very match 2-3 months ago, it's not fresh. You can't have every match end with a run in DQ.
Yeah, I was just about to mention this. I can't even remember Kurt doing it to Brock Lesnar. I do remember the Undertaker thing, mostly because of those atrocious snakeskin pants.
The most loathsome finish I've ever seen was at Rock Bottom 1998. In the title match, Rock passed out in the mandible claw so Foley seemingly won the title. But McMahon said that since Rock never said "I quit" or tapped out, that the title didn't change hands because "the title can only change hands on pin or submission" and Rock didn't truly submit. Bullshit to end all bullshit.
Check it out: http://youtu.be/FmOuUaYxplk?t=24m54s
On your first point: I completely agree, WWE needs to spice up 3 way dances a lot. If you watch the original WWF triple threats from 1997 it's amazing how much better they are than what we get now. A lot more happens than the formulaic one guys gets knocked out and the other two fight.
Also agree with your latter point and the Shamrock example is the best one. But, like many of these finishes, they're only good in moderation.
Amusingly one of the early Raws ran out of time right as Undertaker was about to go on. They also ran out of time during MAIN EVENT PROMOS on several occasions shortly after being granted overrun.
This rarely happens (only happened once?), but I'd add the finish to the Foley/Rock I quit match as well. You edited together a recording of Foley saying I quit and then had someone play it? Really? I guess this is a subcategory of Dusty Finish, technically.
The Cat losing being WCW Commish to Mike Sanders by countout in a kickboxing match. A minor one, but irritating - when feds don't remember the stips for prior matche
I remember when I first starting doing RAW again in 2011 and Michael Cole would talk about how triple-threat matches were no-DQ and I was like "WTF? Since when?" and apparently this was a thing that had gone down while I wasn't watching. And then last night, suddenly it's a DQ again because they can't think of any better finish. WHO'S RIGHT NOW?
Subset of this pet peeve that I forgot about: Double disqualifications in #1 contender matches, which lead to both guys getting the title shot in a triple threat match. You both suck, here's a title shot!
It makes sense in some way though. Who do you give the match to if someone gets DQ'd in a triple? Ideally you just keep the match going as a singles, but otherwise you just have a no contest. Or imagine if someone in a triple gets attacked by outside interference. Does he just win by default?
I always figured in those 4 team anyone can tag anyone matches that when they do the spot like when the Outlaws pinned each other, theoretically they just got pinned & suffered a loss, so it should really eliminate them from the match. It'd be a cool spot for heels to try that and then find out from the GM that they just screwed themselves out of a win, if they ever did another mstch like that.
I was just at an indy show with like 400 people and they did the "rival calls you out on the big screen" bit,but this time both guys just watched it,shrugged their shoulders,and kept fighting. The one who got called out DID lose,but he lost clean. Kind of interesting way to subvert a dumb trope. Probably would have been more exciting if I knew who any of the three guys were.
"Ryback, you're on the greatest losing streak on PPVs not seen since the days of Chris Jericho as a full time performer. Here's a shot at the WWE Title at our next PPV!"
"Referee five-counts are there for a dramatic tool to build tension, not to actually stop the match! Especially not if it’s a supposed babyface beating on someone in the corner until he’s disqualified, "
My opinion, if your not gonna bother acting like that rule means something, then don't bother enforcing it or it's consequences. Say if Austin is in a pissed off mood and he breaks this rule, BUT it actually goes somewhere within the context of the storyline, that doesn't really bother me, it bothers me when it doesn't go anywhere.
Even though it died with WCW (I think), I'm still sore at the "pull the referee out of the ring" finish. Partly because it was so overused, but mostly because the person on the outside usually waited until the count was two-and-a-half to even start pulling, making the referee look like even more of an idiot than usual. "Oh my, someone is pulling at my legs. Even though this in no way affects the pinfall occurring in front of me or obstructs my view of it, I must nevertheless stop counting immediately."
Good article Scott. I FUCKING HATE the music distraction causing the babyface to get pinned finish.
ReplyDeleteIf I was a wrestler, I'd just ignore it.
Good article!
ReplyDeleteReally enjoyed the return of Angry Scott Keith I grew up on in the late 90s.
Especially when ranting against Dusty Rhodes.
It's a little unfair to call the "We're running out of time!" the "nWo finish". That one was a mainstay of Crockett programming and probably other territories.
ReplyDeleteYeah, that's been part of TV wrestling for a pretty long time. Using it for a show-ending brawl (no match, no chance for a proper "close") is okay. Using it to non-finish a match is bad booking.
ReplyDeleteI agree. JCP did use it to end matches, but TV in that era was a completely different thing.
ReplyDeleteI had to put in an Editor's Note when they totally called a DQ in a triple-threat match LAST NIGHT. What great timing. Cracked me up, Scott.
ReplyDeleteTo be fair, DQs in three-ways aren't an issue as long as they CONTINUE THE MATCH with the remaining participants (like they would have done in ECW). In fact, having a three-way where you COULD have the scenario of, say, the champion snookering the referee into DQ'ing one of his opponents Eddie Guerrero-style in order to improve his odds would make for a REAL interesting dynamic. It's annoying that WWE doesn't get this and has never played around with a rule like that, AFAIK.
ReplyDeleteHey! You're BOOKED to lose. You don't have the power to ignore it. Now, watch this video, while I pull your tights.
ReplyDeleteYeah, I think distraction finishes are the worst. Especially the ones where the heel/face leaves the ring to chase his arch-nemesis and forgets he had a match and gets counted out. In this age, finding creative ways to end matches has dried up. I think RAW and Smackdown have, over the years, spoiled the average fan with giving away major mid-card and main event caliber matches on free TV. I understand that you have 12 PPV's to book around. Back when there were only 4-5 PPV a year, and before RAW, you could have the one weekly feature match, which was used to set up feuds. These usually ended in DQ. I was fine with that. But now you have major matches 6-9 times PER SHOW. It sucks, because you know it's not going back to the way it was. But when two guys are facing each other on PPV, and you saw this very match 2-3 months ago, it's not fresh. You can't have every match end with a run in DQ.
ReplyDeleteWhat are "Things Pat Patterson would say?"
ReplyDeleteDidn't we know Eric Angle before 2003? Kurt did the 'twin finish' at Survivor Series 2000.
ReplyDeleteYeah, I was just about to mention this. I can't even remember Kurt doing it to Brock Lesnar. I do remember the Undertaker thing, mostly because of those atrocious snakeskin pants.
ReplyDeleteAlso acceptable: "Is that a foreign object in your tights, or are you glad I gave you a rear bear hug?"
ReplyDeleteAh yes - I knew it wasn't Fully Loaded 2000 but I also remember it happening in 2000. Survivor Series makes sense.
ReplyDeleteThe most loathsome finish I've ever seen was at Rock Bottom 1998. In the title match, Rock passed out in the mandible claw so Foley seemingly won the title. But McMahon said that since Rock never said "I quit" or tapped out, that the title didn't change hands because "the title can only change hands on pin or submission" and Rock didn't truly submit. Bullshit to end all bullshit.
ReplyDeleteCheck it out:
http://youtu.be/FmOuUaYxplk?t=24m54s
On your first point: I completely agree, WWE needs to spice up 3 way dances a lot. If you watch the original WWF triple threats from 1997 it's amazing how much better they are than what we get now. A lot more happens than the formulaic one guys gets knocked out and the other two fight.
ReplyDeleteAlso agree with your latter point and the Shamrock example is the best one. But, like many of these finishes, they're only good in moderation.
They need to do away with it immediately. So stupid.
ReplyDeleteAmusingly one of the early Raws ran out of time right as Undertaker was about to go on. They also ran out of time during MAIN EVENT PROMOS on several occasions shortly after being granted overrun.
ReplyDeleteThis rarely happens (only happened once?), but I'd add the finish to the Foley/Rock I quit match as well. You edited together a recording of Foley saying I quit and then had someone play it? Really? I guess this is a subcategory of Dusty Finish, technically.
ReplyDeleteThe Cat losing being WCW Commish to Mike Sanders by countout in a kickboxing match.
ReplyDeleteA minor one, but irritating - when feds don't remember the stips for prior matche
I remember when I first starting doing RAW again in 2011 and Michael Cole would talk about how triple-threat matches were no-DQ and I was like "WTF? Since when?" and apparently this was a thing that had gone down while I wasn't watching. And then last night, suddenly it's a DQ again because they can't think of any better finish. WHO'S RIGHT NOW?
ReplyDeleteSubset of this pet peeve that I forgot about: Double disqualifications in #1 contender matches, which lead to both guys getting the title shot in a triple threat match. You both suck, here's a title shot!
Nash's Gauntlet match against the New Blood (Where the AIR got one, if not two of the pinfalls) is also a great one.
ReplyDeleteIt makes sense in some way though. Who do you give the match to if someone gets DQ'd in a triple? Ideally you just keep the match going as a singles, but otherwise you just have a no contest. Or imagine if someone in a triple gets attacked by outside interference. Does he just win by default?
ReplyDeleteRedacted. Cuz I'm dumb.
ReplyDeleteI always figured in those 4 team anyone can tag anyone matches that when they do the spot like when the Outlaws pinned each other, theoretically they just got pinned & suffered a loss, so it should really eliminate them from the match. It'd be a cool spot for heels to try that and then find out from the GM that they just screwed themselves out of a win, if they ever did another mstch like that.
ReplyDeleteThe problem? They don't have four teams.
How about that Nash vs New Blood match where they were just counting his wins despite not even touching the opponent?
ReplyDeleteI was just at an indy show with like 400 people and they did the "rival calls you out on the big screen" bit,but this time both guys just watched it,shrugged their shoulders,and kept fighting. The one who got called out DID lose,but he lost clean. Kind of interesting way to subvert a dumb trope. Probably would have been more exciting if I knew who any of the three guys were.
ReplyDeleteWish that the GSN Pyramid went long enough to put this in the $100 spot on the Winner's Circle or whatever the second subject was.
ReplyDeleteHow about Hulk Hogan beating Vader in a strap match by dragging Ric Flair around the ring.
ReplyDeleteYes they do.
ReplyDeleteThe Shield
ReplyDeleteThe Usos
Prime Time Players
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Someone help me out here?
That was awesome though, considering he screwed Foley out of the title when Foley never tapped out to the Sharpshooter.
ReplyDeleteOr better yet, earlier this year:
ReplyDelete"Ryback, you're on the greatest losing streak on PPVs not seen since the days of Chris Jericho as a full time performer. Here's a shot at the WWE Title at our next PPV!"
The Wyatts
ReplyDeleteThree Man Band
Swagger/Cesaro
Okay, fine, they suck. But still.
That was an innocent joke and you had to go and kill it. Monster!
ReplyDeleteThere are no innocent jokes!
ReplyDeleteI only ruined it because I challenged myself to think of more than four.
It was most certainly a challenge.
"Referee five-counts are there for a dramatic tool to build tension, not to actually stop the match! Especially not if it’s a supposed babyface beating on someone in the corner until he’s disqualified, "
ReplyDeleteMy opinion, if your not gonna bother acting like that rule means something, then don't bother enforcing it or it's consequences. Say if Austin is in a pissed off mood and he breaks this rule, BUT it actually goes somewhere within the context of the storyline, that doesn't really bother me, it bothers me when it doesn't go anywhere.
Even though it died with WCW (I think), I'm still sore at the "pull the referee out of the ring" finish. Partly because it was so overused, but mostly because the person on the outside usually waited until the count was two-and-a-half to even start pulling, making the referee look like even more of an idiot than usual. "Oh my, someone is pulling at my legs. Even though this in no way affects the pinfall occurring in front of me or obstructs my view of it, I must nevertheless stop counting immediately."
ReplyDeleteYou forgot Los Matadores!
ReplyDeleteWhere's ''Dude pins other dude with German Suplex but other dude gets shoulder up so dude pins himself?''
ReplyDeleteIntertwined with ''Both men pinned, so both men declared no. 1 contender'', which only worked when HHH/Mankind did it.