Hey Scott,
Are there any matches that you know are great yet don't particularly like watching? For example, I realize this is blasphemous, but I know Savage vs. Steamboat from WM III is an amazing match, however I'd much rather watch the Savage vs. Jake Roberts/Heel vs. Heel match from SNME in 1986.
HH v. Shawn Michaels after Summerslam 2002 immediately springs to mind. I literally never want to watch them wrestle each other again. John Cena v. Kurt Angle was supposed to be really good but bored the pants off me, much like most of Cena's output between Thuganomics and the Punk feud. The Big Show-Sheamus matches were generally really good last year but I have no desire to ever watch them again.
The thing is that most of the matches I rate highly are ones that I enjoy watching. If it's something where I only know it's great objectively but don't enjoy the experience, then I usually downgrade the rating and also make a note in the review. HHH-Shawn HITC from 2004 is the most notable example of that.
Bret/Shawn Iron Man. They do all the right things minus the spotty selling but it bores the piss out of me every time. I'll take HHH/Rock over it any day.
ReplyDeleteI was thinking about Cena/Angle earlier today. I think the Cena debut is a little overrated (despite the couple hope spots, it was still basically a jobber match where Angle worked just a little harder than usual), but it promised a greater match down the line which never really came as Cena hadn't found his zone until well after Kurt had left. Though impossible now, I salivate at the thought of 2003 Angle vs Modern Cena. I even think modern Angle vs. modern Cena could top any of the matches they've had so far.
ReplyDeleteWrestlemania 28...AGE IN THE CAGE.
ReplyDeleteFlair/Steamboat
ReplyDeleteI'll play this game.
ReplyDelete2003 Angle vs. Punk or Bryan.
Taker vs. Mankind Hell in the Cell. No desire to see Foley almost due for our viewing pleasure again
ReplyDeleteBoth would be great, but if I could only choose one it would be Bryan. Punk might make for a better angle but Bryan would be the better match. I could imagine a Yes vs. Ankle Lock reversal spot being taken past the point of absurdity to a groundbreaking extreme.
ReplyDeleteThis. The whole point of an Iron Man is to have a "scoreboard chase," to make a wrestling match into something like a hockey game or football game. If Bret and HBK were both pissy about taking the first fall, then make the first fall a countout or DQ so both men are still technically "unbeaten" officially but one of them is now facing a 1-0 deficit. Say, Shawn crashes and burns on that crossbody to the outside and gets counted out, or Bret accidentally headbutts Michaels low during a leapfrog (the Windham/Steamboat spot) and gets DQ'ed.
ReplyDeleteI find this rewatchable due to the Ross/Lawler commentary. I feel like I could listen to just a recording of their comments and feel like I was right there, without actually seeing the footage itself.
ReplyDeleteIs it lazy or accurate to just say that basically the entire "WWE main event style" booking of the last 5-6 years has given the vast majority of bouts no re-watch value? So many bouts have the same finisher/kickout, finisher/kickout, turn to the hard camera-REAL finisher ending sequence that it's hard to really get any to stand out.
ReplyDeleteThe exceptions are unique bouts like Punk/Cena at MITB, the Undertaker/Michaels Wrestlemania matches, Lesnar/Cena, Lesnar/Punk, many of the Shield's matches from December 2012-April 2013 since they all either put twists on the finisher-heavy formula or the atmosphere is just so unreal that it elevates the generic match layout. I could also note that many Punk/Bryan matches are quite good and rewatchable since they're experienced enough to not just run through the same routine every time, like a lot of WWE-only products.
Scott touched on this with Sheamus/Big Show, but WWE has also driven so many feuds into the ground that no ONE match stands out in a big rivalry. Ziggler and Kofi have wrestled each other probably 100 times on WWE television and while they're all the same good, solid **1/2 star bout, they never get higher than that. Del Rio is booked to do nothing but wrestle his feuding rivals over and over again until all the matches just blend into one.
Taker Triple-H WM 27. I just personally found it slow and plodding. I know what they were going for but since the match never had much fire it just made both guys look tired and broken down as performers, especially Taker, by the end.
ReplyDeleteYep, having an Ironman match between two guys who don't want to job to each other is a gigantic waste of time. Could have accomplished the same thing without the stip. Although the crowd would have been curious as to why the ME started with an hour ten left in the show
ReplyDeleteI don't think a lot of people would call HHH/Shawn HITC "great"; I thought the lot of us here believed it to be a 40-minute snoozer.
ReplyDeleteMost of The Rock's matches. Once the Attitude Era was well and truly over, in some respects the main event scene upped its level of physicality and we've been treated to over a decade of Shawn Michaels breaking **** on bad nights.
ReplyDeleteI love The Rock and miss the guy he used to be, but in hindsight he was too much Hulk Hogan and not enough Steve Austin for my tastes; too much formula, not enough spontaneity. The crowds ate it up so I suppose that's all that counts.
Even Cena's a Rock-like guy, but you can't tell me Rock circa 2000 could have pulled off a match on the same level as Cena/Punk.
I have an idea (and this is approaching dangerously insane levels).
ReplyDeleteWhy not have a gimmick match where pinfalls/submissions don't count for a certain amount of time. Basically you can't lose or win until a certain amount of time has passed. Then you get into the match proper.
Whichever one is better at calling matches and Angle would actually listen to.
ReplyDeleteI think that ADR implements enough psychology in his matches that he gives them some replay value.
ReplyDeleteI could watch him kick the shit out of Ziggler for ever.
They should have just given it 40 minutes or so in a regular match. I think it was a cool concept but I do remember being bored to tears watching it. Was just the wrong two guys.
ReplyDeleteI'm the biggest Rock fanboy on the planet, he's my all-time favorite, so I'm admittedly really biased. While I feel he definitely did have a formula (he sold like fucking DEATH as a face and that got annoying sometimes), I have watched his prime stuff objectively and I still think it's fantastic. Cena/Punk was special because of Cena's character and how much the people hated him. I think if you told Rock to go out and have that same sort of match, he still would have performed damn well. I know his matches with Punk get hate now but I truly believe that Punk/Rock at Elimination Chamber was a great match.
ReplyDeleteBooooo hisssss
ReplyDeleteSteve Austin had spontaneity? I don't think wander through the crowd repeatedly exchanging punches with undertaker is particularly spontaneous.
ReplyDeleteJust rewatched them a couple weeks ago. Still great.
ReplyDeleteYeah, I skip that one every time it's on a DVD I'm watching.
ReplyDeleteSo we're to judge a level of talent on a handful of matches during the nadir of their career? I guess Shawn Michaels wasn't that great if we're to go by WM14.
ReplyDeleteI've never really loved Rock in-ring. Something about his body language and phyisicality seemed very weird to me. He always stood really tall and barrel-chested but he always looked very loose and he tried to do mat wrestling stuff, and with his big build he just didn't quite look right to me. Objectively he was great, but I'm right with you on not really digging it.
ReplyDeleteSame. I know its great but it involves dedicating more attention span than I like to give anymore. Once was enough.
ReplyDeleteI actually think the story of the match would be better with Punk. If I have any knock on Bryan, and its a very small complaint that can be a plus in some ways, is that he will go too far down the rabbit hole of doing shootish wrestling sequences even if it doesn't quite work best for that match. But with someone like Angle that could still be fun. Punk on the other hand could play either heel or face against Angle brilliantly and it'd be a very different type of match.
ReplyDeleteThe nadir? When he was the wwe champ and the height of his drawing power?
ReplyDeleteRock's best phase as a worker was actually during The Alliance. Of course no one goes back and watches the Alliance era. He some real cool matches with RVD and Rhino as well as some others good ones.
ReplyDeleteThe recent Flair hate drives me nuts.
ReplyDeleteI find the Rock - Triple H Iron Man very watchable. I watches it a few months back and I was very into it. I need to re-watch the Brock-Angle one, I only ever saw it the first time it aired. HBK-Bret was technically good but very lame.
ReplyDeleteAbsolutely, the nadir of his in-ring ability.
ReplyDeleteI'll cut you off. What I meant by spontaneity was that, whether following a main event-style wrestling formula or not, Austin's movements and timing looked natural rather than predictable or telegraphed.
Yes, this.
ReplyDeleteTake nearly any match Scott has reviewed of Rock's, and knock about a half a star off it and that's how I feel about it.
Was going to post this. I found Flair/Funk 100x more enjoyable.
ReplyDeleteSame with me. It's the same reason why I have seen the Rumble 92 a million times.
ReplyDeleteYea I agree. He worked hard, really improved, and had great matches due to other intangibles hed bring to a match but there were usually a few spots per match he just looked awkward.
ReplyDeleteFlair/Funk is overrated too.
ReplyDeleteIt's not Flair hate.
ReplyDeleteChicken Wings and double pins. Fuck that noise.
ReplyDeleteI really can't get into most 70's/80's stuff, including most of those "one-hour classics" that Flair was so known for. Actually, most of Flair's stuff around that time, other than his matches with Steamboat, can't hold my attention.
ReplyDeleteI don't even consider it a good match, but i'll totally agree.
ReplyDeleteWhy is that Flair hate? I can't get through Flair/Steamboat either.
ReplyDeleteOh man, is complaining that I overrate Rock's matches a thing again?
ReplyDeleteFor some reason I never got into any of the Punk/Bryan matches during the past couple of years. Punk/Jericho for that matter. Punk "plays" better to me as the David vs other Goliaths. Him vs Brock or Cena were fantastic.
ReplyDeleteHmm, and you could have 5 guys on each side and put it inside a cage with two rings.
ReplyDeleteThat's crazy and would never work.
ReplyDeleteSorry, but The Rock is probably one of the most underrated in-ring performers there is. His selling was top notch, his timing impeccable, and I highly disagree that his matches devolved into some type of formula. His matches with Foley contrast with his matches HHH, which contrast with his Austin matches, which contrast with his matches with Benoit, which contrast with his matches with Jericho, which contrast with his matches with Angle... and on and on. The guy was a 4-4.5 star machine from 2000-2002 while consistently holding his own against vastly different wrestlers.
ReplyDeleteIf I may add to that: The Rikishi match from Survivor Series 2000 had no business being anywhere near a good, and it was tremendous. I will also add that in my opinion working with Benoit really helped him take his work to the next level.
ReplyDeleteYou admittedly don't like Flair, therefore your opinion on his matches is naturally going to be lower. There for your comments are hardly objective.
ReplyDeleteThe Grantland article came out and now everyone hates Flair-Steamboat, fuck THAT noise.
ReplyDeleteI'm not sure anyone ever said it was good other than the WWE hype machine.
ReplyDeleteI'm not sure you could pay me to watch a best of Alberto DVD.
ReplyDeleteI agree with both of those sentiments. I remember thinking that nothing would top the HHH-Jericho match at Fully Loaded, but Benoit-Rock matched it. Then, Rock and Benoit pulled off another entertaining main event a couple months later even with a couple of lugs at the time (can't remember if it was Taker and Kane or not). The Rock definitely matured as a worker after his matches with Benoit.
ReplyDeleteI didn't see hate anywhere in his precious comment.
ReplyDeleteAnd I didn't like Flair/Steamboat waaaay before any silly article.
I didn't watch Flair-Steamboat until after I read all the great things about it. After watching I was confused as to why they were considered so great. I'll watch Michaels-Taker at WM 25 a hundred times over before I watch a match from that trilogy.
ReplyDeleteWell, let's face it, it's not like he's doing it again and again, It's already in the can, might as well enjoy it.
ReplyDeleteI think I would give Kofi/Ziggler an up to 3 stars, but you are correct, there's only so many times you can watch it.
ReplyDeleteI think to best illustrate your point just look at the Rock/Cena series. I heard all sorts of people give it 3.5 stars because.....
I watched it and enjoyed it, but kind of nominally. I guess it felt like a big fight, but then again I never had anything invested in Cena, so it got a shrug out of me.
I think I might be the only person that enjoyed it.
ReplyDeleteNot everybody. Here's some objectivity.... I don't like Flair, and I don't really like most of his work past 1995, but that series with Steamboat was phenomenal. Of course I think a lot of it has to do with me actually watching back then. Younger fans who began watching later mightnot enjoy it as much.
ReplyDeleteI didn't care for the Punk/Jericho matches, either. Not "bad" by any means, but definitely disappointing.
ReplyDeleteI agree, for the most part. His timing was GREAT, but his selling was so cartoony (all wide-open mouthed and "AAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!") and his move application often looked completely sloppy, like there was no contact made at all.
ReplyDeleteOf course, this probably made him the best guy to wrestle ever- the crowds ate his stuff up, he was wildly popular, and most of his moves probably wouldn't have broken an egg (remember his Belly-To-Belly Suplex that was basically him just lightly touching the other guy and then spinning around?). Very easy, safe match that draws a big reaction.
I'd say he's more just stating his opinion than complaining about yours being "wrong". Pointing out different tastes, and all that.
ReplyDeleteMe, I usually drop a half a star off when you review matches featuring Canadians. Unless it was Benoit, because he was the best. In the ring.
I always found Rock/HHH to be a bit too ploddy and "Main Event Brawl"-ish for my tastes. Like they literally went outside the ring to brawl fifteen times or something. I don't remember the exact number, but it was a LOT. Granted, Bret/Shawn did the same thing with submissions, but at least those had psychology behind them (until Bret stopped selling the arm, of course).
ReplyDeleteAh, you hurt me to the core with such blasphemy!
ReplyDeleteI agree about the double pin, especially since it didn't even look like both guys' shoulders were down. The most unforgivable part is them repeating that exact same finish in their match years later.
ReplyDeleteI'd have to think that Punk/Bryan has a decent chance of headlining "WM" this year.
ReplyDeletehe's pretty good in ring. just that he never gets booked with the ME-ers like Cena. He had some kickass matches with Cena and Punk during autumn 2011. His chemistry with Christian is always off the charts,
ReplyDeleteI think hour long matches are mostly done now to fluff the egos of the wrestlers doing them.
ReplyDeleteWell, he is restricted because he isn't a "real main-eventer" and thus is restricted in what he can do in the ring.
ReplyDeleteHis match with Christian was really good. Kind of turned me around on him.
ReplyDeleteWhich one?
ReplyDeleteCause he had some baller ones back in 2011. That was what convinced me he could work. His Edge stuff wasn't bad, but you could tell he was holding back out of Edge's fragility.
Ah, my bad. The recent Summerslam match. I skipped to the finish the first time, then on re-watching was like "Wow, this is some hot shit"
ReplyDeleteFlair-Windham from WWE's first Flair dvd. Fell asleep the first time I tried to watch it and wasn't impressed when I did get through it.
ReplyDeleteBret-HBK Iron Man match. The match itself is fine but it defeats the whole point of the iron man gimmick if no falls take place. Even a double pin or double countout would have at least put points on the board...
Sting/Flair from the first Clash. Just okay to me, no where near the star making performance that it was hyped to be.
On the opposite end of the spectrum, I love every Steamboat/Savage house show match that I've tracked down on youtube. Also the second ever Hogan/Flair was better than all there other matches that I've seen over the years. The other ones rely way too much on outside interfernce (perfect in wwf and sherri in wcw) while Heenan only did a couple spots.
I was dreading the rematch but admittedly I enjoyed it alot.
ReplyDeleteI figured it was that one. But he's had a lot of good matches with Christian.
ReplyDeleteMr. Cage and ADR are both good workers, I never really got people thumbing their noses at them. Sure they aren't always in the most interesting angles, but they almost always bust their ass to entertain us.
Flair-Windham from Jan. '87? WOW! Never heard that before.
ReplyDeleteSpeaking of falling asleep, Hart-Michaels Iron Man. What a snooze fest. Boring, laid back southern California crowd didn't help. Never have a match like that in southern CAL.
ADD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
ReplyDeleteGIVE ME A BREAK. You don't like REAL wrestling if you don't like those.
ReplyDeleteThe "I Quit" match is slightly, but only because of all the 90's era violence. As far as '89 and before goes, it's a solid four stars out of five. I do find the "Great American Bash" match a tad better overall.
ReplyDeleteWhat?!?! I found it to be quite fitting and neat that they paid homage to that in '94.
ReplyDeleteIt's all from a bunch of overly patriotic Canadian Bret Hart sycophants who only hate Flair because their hero dogs him. I'll bet you a million bucks none of these people would say a dam thing about Flair if the great (and highly overrated) Bret Hart hadn't said something before.
ReplyDeleteI like that they reused the spot, but I hate that it was the finish. Why wouldn't Steamboat release the Chicken Wing when last time it resulted in a double pin situation? Did he not want to win? Was he incapable of learning? Is that the only possible result of Flair meeting Steamboat? To me it was lazy booking. Let's just use an old finish instead of write a new one. I dislike the Michaels/Hart Ironman match for the same reason.
ReplyDeleteSee Jabroniville's comment.
ReplyDeleteYep. I have no ill will towards Rock by any means, I'm just one of the guys who digs him a *liiiiiittle* bit less.
ReplyDeleteAnd yeah, as far as safety goes he was probably top notch, but there was nothing he did that mady anybody wince, "oooooh!!"
I can see a case here. Flair/Steamboat is an NWA feud; Flair/Funk was closer to what you could call a WCW feud, mostly because it was a bigger personal issue.
ReplyDeleteAlso, fantasy re-booking idea: Switch the round-robin tournament to the November Clash and have Funk cheat like hell to win it and earn his "last shot" at Flair and the belt at Starrcade -- keep the I Quit stip, add the blood we saw at the Baltimore Bash, and '89 closes on a much higher note for the promotion.
I totally dig the HHH/Rock ladder match from SS '98, too.
ReplyDeleteAt the time, it was a terrific ide to have an Iron Man Match between the two of them. It was just booked and played out wrong.
ReplyDeleteThe Superdome match drags, but the Chicago and Nashville matches that bookend the series were fantastic. The Chicago match is my favorite of the three.
ReplyDeleteYep. I could probably recite the commentary from the 92 Rumble word for word at this point. Gorilla and Heenan are just as big a part of that match's success as the Rumble itself.
ReplyDeleteActually, I would say it's the other way around. The NWA was all about some blood feuds which is essentially what Flair/Funk was. Steamboat/Flair was a respect thing and it's just not what fans like myself wanted to see.
ReplyDeleteIt's great that Steamboat was/is regarded as such a great guy, but it just doesn't make for an interesting feud.