Sunday, February 15, 2015

WWE's Fingerpoke of Doom

Scott,

A lot of fans - myself included - are of the opinion that the overall WWE product now is more unwatchable than ever.  Where you can pinpoint both the second that Ralph's heart rips in half and the moment WCW began to sink (the "Fingerpoke of Doom"), do you think there is a similar moment in recent WWE history?

For me, it is WrestleMania 27.  No matter your opinion on The Miz headlining the show, the way the match was booked was mind boggling for any match, let alone a Mania main event.  The Rock - who hadn't so much as laced up the boots in seven years - standing tall at the end of the show and the WWE Champion left to be an afterthought.  I suppose they had a chance to recover with CM Punk winning the title in Chicago, but we all know how that went...

What would you classify as your WWE "Fingerpoke" moment?

​HHH booking himself to go over CM Punk at Night of Champions 2011, which was pretty much Punk's hottest point and the time when they could have made him into a new top level WM-draw superstar.  And then he jobbed and now he's gone.  I don't think it directly killed the company's momentum or anything, but he was the last guy who could have been the guy to be bigger than the company and they deliberately killed him off.  ​

251 comments:

  1. What show are you guys watching? KOTR?

    ReplyDelete
  2. I would have said Royal Rumble 2014, but they had enough sense to fix it.


    I would have said Royal Rumble 2015, but they fixed it the next night on the blizzard Raw. But then they went again and undid it, so how about last week's Raw with Seth Rollins and Daniel Bryan being thrust into a match to face Reigns (because The Rock helped Reigns beat down two guys already eliminated in the Rumble and then Rusev).

    ReplyDelete
  3. I dont think they want a guy bigger than the company....

    ReplyDelete
  4. The Love-Matic Grampa!February 15, 2015 at 10:19 AM

    To me, it was Cena beating Nexus clean after taking a DDT on the cement floor at Summerslam 2010. At that point, you realized that WWE was unwilling to take any real risks and would always play it safe with SuperCena or a variation thereof. And sure enough, even when there's been a faint glimmer of hope since (Punk, Brock, Bryan), WWE has remained true to form.

    ReplyDelete
  5. It was billed as Hogan's last match. Of course it goes last.

    I wish they set up today's WM like that one, where it was basically two shows put together with the 2 main events. Would make the 4-hour length easier to deal with it if was booked like 2 2-hour shows.

    The first part of WM 8 is one of my favorite stretches of wrestling ever. Fun HBK match, cool Taker squash, incredible IC title match and Flair/Savage. So perfect.

    ReplyDelete
  6. A lot of fans - myself included - are of the opinion that the overall WWE product now is more unwatchable than ever.

    Yet you keep watching.

    ReplyDelete
  7. I think he meant that the e-mailer keeps watching.

    ReplyDelete
  8. How does he know that?

    ReplyDelete
  9. A bit of an exaggeration?

    ReplyDelete
  10. Did you know that people write reviews and WWE posts clips of their shows so you don't have to tune in to know what's going on?

    ReplyDelete
  11. I think this downtrend has been going on for 15 years. WWE hit their peak in 2000. When Stephanie did not turn on HHH and side with Kurt Angle at Unforgiven, it has been downhill (more or less) since then.

    ReplyDelete
  12. Yeah, I watched the first 2 minutes of The Godfather. I hate weddings. Totally unwatchable.

    ReplyDelete
  13. I 100% agree with this. That was the true turning point for me.

    ReplyDelete
  14. Agreed. Too bad everything after Flair/Savage sucked.

    ReplyDelete
  15. ...mad about what?

    ReplyDelete
  16. The thing is, the actual wrestlers and wrestling for WWE is very good. Hell, just look at the triple threat from the Rumble and the survivor series main event.


    The booking is in the toilet, but as long as the wrestling holds up i'll keep watching.


    And NXT is awesome.


    And i agee about Punk being hobbled being ridiculous.

    ReplyDelete
  17. I'm not sure what I failed at, but yes. I'm furious.

    ReplyDelete
  18. When you consider they went later out of their way to add booing sounds to replays of Sid tossing him out of the Rumble, I'd say no.

    ReplyDelete
  19. You've just spoilt the beginning for Meekin.

    ReplyDelete
  20. if you don't like long-tights Tatanka than I can't really respect your wrestling opinions.

    ReplyDelete
  21. I was never a Tatanka fan, no matter the length of tights he was wearing.

    ReplyDelete
  22. What boggles my mind is how tired the main show is, where everyone has faced everyone multiple times, and where somehow Big Show and Kane are still main eventing...and then you have NXT Rival with a mind blowing 4 star #1 contender's match, a 4 star women's match, and then a nearly 5 star championship match. All three matches had a great build and story and then great in ring execution. The difference is just night and day.

    ReplyDelete
  23. a quick 15 minute look in every few weeks along with reviews and general feedback online can tell you that.

    ReplyDelete
  24. Because if it wasn't for Hulk Hogan, you people wouldn't be here. If it wasn't for Hulk Hogan, Eric Bischoff would still be selling meat from a truck in Minneapolis. And if it wasn't for Hulk Hogan, all of these "Johnny come latelys" that you see out here wrestling wouldn't be here.

    ReplyDelete
  25. For me it will always be not turning Cena heel, and it's not too late. Any point between his feud with Edge and now would've worked wonderfully. Not doing Undertaker vs. Cena at Wrestlemania, the perfect catalyst for a turn, is a disgrace. My favorite point of the CM Punk podcast was him destroying the theory that Cena needs to stay face because of Make A Wish and merchandise. All the wrestlers do Make A Wish and any wrestler can have their shirts and stuff prominently featured. Not doing the turn defied any and all wrestling logic.


    There have also been at least 5 or 6 guys that could have been main eventers or at least solid mid card talents that just got buried - Ryder, Ziggler, Cesaro, Cody Rhodes, Ryback, Dean Ambrose, and the list goes on and on. CM Punk and Daniel Bryan's treatment was / still is completely disgusting and anti money paying fan.


    I also a Network roll out as just the library while slowly adding current PPV's is a much better plan than the arrogance of killing PPV while providing a piss poor homogenized product.

    ReplyDelete
  26. Exactly. They are more about branding than anything else. They have also structured things to make those who leave replaceable and not see much of a swing in terms of decreases ratings or revenue.

    With that beig said, there creative direction is horrible at the moment and if not careful, they might actually see thugs get a lot worse if they are not careful

    ReplyDelete
  27. glad you like the wrestling. For me you have two issues. First is that I generally have to care about he performers to enjoy matches. I can get into a 5 star match or two with no storyline but not a whole show. It is why I don't enjoy ROH or New Japan or some of the other stuff people say to watch. The second issue is that for me, most of the wrestling is formulatic. LIke was said in another thread, so much of it is "trained in" to the wrestlers. Matches are generally structured similar, too many of the same matchups (mostly a too much TV issue), selling is spottier than ever (also a problem with indies), commentary is bad etc. It's just not booking for me. It's the total in ring package being bland most of the time (sometimes I do enjoy it such as the main at Survivor Series 2014) AND the booking. Combine that with the fact that I have never liked Cena since day one (hated his rapper thing too) and Orton and that doesn't leave too much to enjoy.

    ReplyDelete
  28. My personal Fingerpoke was last year's Rumble. It left such a sour taste in my mouth that even though they ended up putting Bryan in the Wrestlemania main event anyway, for the first time in fifteen years I didn't watch it. Punk and Bryan had been pretty much the only two guys I cared about to any great degree for the last several years, and after last year's shitshow one was gone and the other had to drag the writers kicking & screaming into booking him to reflect his popularity. I don't think I've watched a full show since.

    ReplyDelete
  29. you know you hear that but doesn't anyone think that Cena leaving would be even worse than Hogan or Austin or Rock? By keeping everyone interchangeable you leave yourself more vulnerable when a star leaves. At least with Hogan or Austin or Rock you still had Savage, Warrior, Bret, Shawn, UT, Foley, HHH, etc.

    ReplyDelete
  30. How much influence/say do the investors and stockholders have in the direction of the company? Did they say put so and so as part of creative? Did they say none of this and none of that? Do they favor a particular wrestler and say they don't like the look of a guy? I feel like Vince's hands are tied to make things a little edgy.

    ReplyDelete
  31. Hogan/Sid did pretty good houseshow business so in WWF's mind that was the big draw for the show and it'd be hard to argue against it.

    ReplyDelete
  32. that was bad booking. They really booked Hogan to look like a whiner during that period. Hogan was stil over if you don't do that.

    ReplyDelete
  33. Agreed. I barely watch the tv shows (Smackdown is getting better) but the wrestlers actually very good and do great things in the ring when allowed too.

    ReplyDelete
  34. yep. Hogan was over in the match. But the fans hated the ending with Hogan being a dickwad, particularly after being a whiner for the past month since the title was upheld.

    ReplyDelete
  35. My moment would be watching CM Punk in the 2014 Rumble. He was my favorite wrestler of the last decade, and Money in the Bank 2011 was my my favorite PPV. So seeing what bad shape they sent him out in was the low point for me. Someone in the back needed to make a call and say, you can't go out there, for your own well-being. It was irresponsible.

    ReplyDelete
  36. I don't think this is true. By the sounds of those conference call reports, it sounds like Vince and company are working the investors like the straight up carnies that they are. I actually think Vince thinks this is what is best for his company. I would be really curious to know what the people at USA think of the product.

    ReplyDelete
  37. The moment Austin turned heel. Everything after WM17 has just existed to chase the same highs and it will never be able to.

    ReplyDelete
  38. The show was still watchable for almost decade when they were a publicly traded company. That's always a cop out answer IMO. All the shit we hate now (50-50, no angles in the mid card/interchangeable roster, same matches every week, bad writing etc) seemed to start around the HD switch though.

    ReplyDelete
  39. and they did it again this year!

    ReplyDelete
  40. when I first read the question, this event was the first one to come into my mind

    ReplyDelete
  41. If Cena left, it would be the Age of Orton!

    ReplyDelete
  42. I think the emailer was a little harsh with that opinion. The wrestling itself is good. I think we have to realize that we're not really part of the demographic. We're too smart for our own good. The company aims at pre teens that aren't looking for office politics or reading spoilers. Or for the Audience Of One. Either way, if things were really that bad, we wouldn't be watching and be talking about something else on here.

    ReplyDelete
  43. You may enjoy RoH if you watch the older stuff with guys that are in the big leagues now. I followed from '05 to maybe '09 or '10, the stories were pretty well told and you'll see a lot of familiar faces. The product has been kinda bland for a few years now.

    ReplyDelete
  44. Some of the wrestling is better but you can look at a PPV card two weeks before the show and know what matches to watch and what matches to skip because basically all the of the mid card is just the exact same match with the same 5 interchangeable finishes. But there will be two or possibly 3 matches each ppv or maybe one on a raw or smackdown where they let them do a show. You already will know exactly what matches those are going to be without even needing to watch the whole show and there is no reason to even see the other matches because the finishes don't even mean anything, so why bother?

    ReplyDelete
  45. That's why looking back I can say it was probably my turning point, because much like with Scott's example with Punk, even though he ended up winning the belt it was the moment where WWE made it clear what they really thought of the guy.

    ReplyDelete
  46. yep. I havent cared about a single Usos match this year. Mizdow or the Dust brothers, who cares?

    ReplyDelete
  47. The day this company stopped being the WWF, it has been all downhill. Sure, there have been a few times through the years where some decent angles and matches were stumbled upon but for the most part it has become a watered down product....

    ReplyDelete
  48. I think Punk still could be a big star outside of wrestling, but fuck if I know what field it would be in. I don't see UFC panning out for him long term for whatever reason.

    ReplyDelete
  49. Theberzerker Von HUSSingtonFebruary 15, 2015 at 11:07 AM

    Honestly, I think it's been a succession of Fingerpokes. Failing to turn Cena heel, failing to cash in on Hardy in '08, the way they botched the Nexus angle, the Fall of Punk, Royal Fumble 2014, now Royal Fumble 2015... The official start of the decline was after WMX-7 and the failure of the InVasion angle, but the failures compound on each other year after year really just changes it to a Fistfuck of Doom rather than a fingerpoke.


    As soon as they crested the very top of the mountain and started to slip down, they've been panically trying to slow their fall ever since. They're a man drowning in quicksand, the more they try to climb the mountain again the further down they fall. And this is why NXT is SUCCEEDING, because it's not trying to rule the fucking world...it's just focusing on itself and being the best wrestling show it can be.

    ReplyDelete
  50. As long as USA is making money and no one is threatening to boycott, they're happy. As far as the content goes, USA has had its share of clunkers. This is no worse. I brought it up in another thread how wrestling is built on lies and deceit yet these investors consciously do business with this company.

    ReplyDelete
  51. agreed. They had some really great wrestling up through early 2002. For me the fingerpoke of doom moment was Hogan coming back. Sure they still had some great work and some good angles (I liked Evolution) for the next 3 or 4 years but my enjoyment really went down at that point. It was no longer appointment TV. If I missed the show, oh well. And in 2006 I just stopped watching.

    ReplyDelete
  52. fistfuck of doom. Hah. I think that is availabe on RedTube

    ReplyDelete
  53. To this day I don't understand why they didn't reverse Hogan and Sid's positions. Hogan throws Sid out, Sid grabs Hogan's arm, and yanks him out with Flair's help. Exact same result without making your big hero look like a dick.

    ReplyDelete
  54. It's the logical progression of the Kiss My Ass Club.

    ReplyDelete
  55. Maybe I'm the only one but I really enjoyed Hogan's comeback. He had some matches and was fantastic on Smackdown. He put Brock Lesnar over HUGE at a time when Brock really needed it. Other than his awful match with Undertaker I thought it was a damn fun run and gave us some nice closure on Hulkamania.

    ReplyDelete
  56. Neither the investors nor the USA Network have any say in the product. USA has guidelines about what Vince *can't* do, and will express concerns from a standards & practices standpoint, but all they "demand" from WWE are assurances that they're getting the best quality product possible. Given the amount they gave WWE in the latest TV deal, and if you do some rough math to figure out how much that breaks down to per hour of programming, USA & SyFy are likely quite content with what WWE is doing at the moment.

    ReplyDelete
  57. I actually think having Hogan be the final WWF champion was a good idea. The feud with Taker that followed pretty much showed us where the company was going though and we have been dragged behind Taker's bike with the Hulkster ever since....

    ReplyDelete
  58. The time it was most jarring to me is when Cena and Rock did absolutely nothing to build up the rematch they had at wrestlemania 29. The company doing that lazy of a build for that huge match just because they knew people would buy anyways really left a bad taste in my mouth and really underscored everything else that was wrong for me.


    However my most recent tap out on watching week to week didn't come until a Raw or two after wrestlemania xxx when I realized that HHH was still going to be the guy every week.

    ReplyDelete
  59. I had no nostalgia at that point. His run in WCW just killed every once of goodwill I had for the guy. I was never a full fledged Hulkamaniac but I rooted for him against Piper, Andre, Bundy, etc. I rented the videos. But his WCW run just made me despise the guy, both for his painfully boring promos with Bischoff/ring work and for his backstage shenanigans. For me there was no going home. But I don't blame Hogan totally for 2002 being the downfall. Jericho got shunted down the card from that point. Rock became part time. HHH got more power. UT was still god awful in his biker phase. It was just a perfect storm of yuck with a bit of gold mixed in (jericho benoit, guerrero, etc.)

    ReplyDelete
  60. Punk would have complained that "you can't tell me I can't go out there!"

    ReplyDelete
  61. It's not surprising that Big Steph became head of creative in fall 2000

    ReplyDelete
  62. That was dumb but it's no like it killed Kurt Angle's push, he won the belt a month later, over The Rock no less.

    ReplyDelete
  63. And it was so predictable. There was no way Cena was losing so who cared....

    ReplyDelete
  64. It's not a turning point for me, but it was a definitely a missed opportunity for a HUGE feud. I don't know why that storyline came screeching to a halt.

    ReplyDelete
  65. And got his win back over HHH at the Rumble.

    ReplyDelete
  66. But I will say again, I don't think Cena has it in him now to REALLY go all out in a heel role. I just truly don't.

    The problem too with the make a wish stuff is that Cena's dedication to it is just so much greater than any others

    You are spot on though about Cena vs Taker.

    ReplyDelete
  67. I agree...and that's why you need the guy in charge backstage, whether that's Hunter or Vince or whoever, to tell him, with doctors present, that they're not letting him do it.

    ReplyDelete
  68. Sadly I think WWE is exactly what Vince wants it to be--maybe has always aspired to it to be, and a part of that was brought up by someone below: WWE doesn't want a star bigger than the company. Vince has built the company to that vaunted position of being a billion dollar brand. It's now a corporate machine that will continue to generate modest profits with minimum maintenance. But Vince himself is still the guy looking for mainstream respectability, holds onto old grudges too long, can be as petty as anyone, and wallows in his regrets. One thing we know about Vince is that every time he's built a top star, when they've left the company to go elsewhere, or especially walk away from wrestling to go to Hollywood, Vince has felt betrayed. Even when most have gone back you see there's still this bitterness in McMahon over their leaving that he never lets go of.

    I think because of that when John Cena became the guy, who the company built almost from scratch through their developmental system, and Vince saw in him a guy who was very loyal, the decision seems to have been made to never again put the success of the company on the shoulders of a guy who wasn't 100% WWE. If Vince has his way he'll never again elevate a guy who can achieve mainstream success away from the ring, or even have ambitions to do so. He could have done it with Punk, he's had two years now to do it with Bryan... hell, he could be building the entire company around Lesnar right now, but he won't, because he resents that Lesnar left and became a bigger legitimate star.

    Roman Reigns is everything Vince is looking for in his next long-term top guy. It's probably not a Fingerpoke of Doom per se, but much of WWE's future course was laid whenever Vince not only embraced Cena as his guy, but decided he was the template for all top guys to follow, which has ultimately played a big part in the booking, style & format of what we see today.

    Whether you ascribe it solely to Vince trying to avoid being hurt personally, or see it as WWE embracing a business model that will collect a safe dollar while foregoing the risk of earning more, or a combination of both, WWE has charted a course which seems destined to slowly lose them fans over time as they alienate the older ones, while straying farther and farther away from the basics that attract new ones.

    ReplyDelete
  69. I'm also going toss out not bringing guys in "as is" and giving guys those awful name generator names. There is no reason someone like AJ Styles or Bobby Roode couldn't just come in as is and contribute to the product. WWE really benefited from bringing in guys like Chris Benoit, Booker T, Randy Savage, Kurt Angle, etc. without having to change their name and basterdize their gimmick.

    ReplyDelete
  70. For me, it's Rock beating Punk for the title. There was a lot of bad stuff before that ,for sure,but there always is.

    ReplyDelete
  71. Cena already was a fantastic heel, he's playing a heel in an upcoming movie and frankly I think he is more of a heel in real life than people give him credit for. He got almost as big of a free pass on his divorce as Russell Wilson got.

    ReplyDelete
  72. While I agreed with 99% of what Punk said in his podcast, I didn't see eye to eye on him on the Cena/Make A Wish stuff. I think Punk was looking at a relatively short period of time when he said something along the lines of "I was doing as much as he was." In the grand scheme of things, even if Cena's appearances do get more publicity, the numbers simply don't lie. The guy has the established RECORD as most wishes granted. That has nothing to do with what's shown on TV.


    Same goes for appearances. Again, in a certain period of time Punk may have been making as many appearances as him, but in the grand scheme of things I would bet (and I don't have numbers to back this up) that he was blowing Punk away.


    Having said that, it's all kinda silly. Freakin' Bray Wyatt just granted a wish and the Miz does more appearances than 90% of the roster. Turning Cena heel doesn't mean he has to disappear into the abyss.

    ReplyDelete
  73. I think it's a combination of a couple of factors. It was billed as Hogan's retirement match, it had a huge surprise ending with Warrior returning that couldn't be anywhere but the end of the show, and frankly, and I hate to say it cause I love both guys, but Savage and Flair weren't THAT big of deal. Savage spent most of the prior year "retired" and Flair's title reign lasted a mere two months after his huge Royal Rumble win. Cesaro's push lasted about as long. Heck Flair was back down in the bush-leagues a year later.

    ReplyDelete
  74. oh man I love that match

    ReplyDelete
  75. A fucking porn star took a picture with the belt over her ass, the dude is a heel

    ReplyDelete
  76. Having the biggest star in the world beat your disgruntled Waffle House fry cook champ always is a bad move in hindsight...

    ReplyDelete
  77. I agree that Cena got a free pass with his divorce and that it's incredibly messed up to cheat on your spouse, but I think it's unfair to say that he's a "heel in life." From all accounts, he seems like a pretty good guy. Even Punk, who is more critical of people than most are, said he was a good guy.

    ReplyDelete
  78. Some things are bigger than the belt. As said people thought is was Hogan's last match. If it had been, and maybe in a more perfect world, seeing Savage FINALLY go over him with Flair/Perfect attacking and warrior coming back at the end for the save would have been a thing of beauty.

    ReplyDelete
  79. Guess you can say the WWE is like the Simpsons. They both hit their creative peak years ago, but because they still make money and have enough of a audience to keep them on TV, both products are a shell of their former selfs but we keep tuning in and go to the shows because of our loyality to them for making such an impact long ago.

    ReplyDelete
  80. Early to mid-90's WWF was basically the same as it is now but on a much smaller scale. Vince was trying to play it safe by putting out a watered-down, kid & family friendly product. What we have today is pretty much what Vince was aspiring to then. Back then was probably legitimately worse because of the lesser talent, but it was also still closer to traditional wrestling, so perhaps a bit easier to forgive by fans who could overlook the worst of it. By the same token today feels worse to those same fans because today gas so much more talent being wasted, and the overall presentation has strayed so far from what wrestling used to be.

    ReplyDelete
  81. He's a good guy but he has some prickish qualities that he can play up that I'm sure people would boo. The guy the high school QB that fucks the prom queen, he is a natural heel.

    ReplyDelete
  82. I don't think being divorced makes you a heel. And one can also say he learned a lot from it....like he's not the marriage type.

    ReplyDelete
  83. I actually didn't mind that in and of itself. It turned Triple H heel (which he should have been, if he's going to remain an on-air character) and it gave Orton more direction than he had had in years. However, the story ended with Orton remaining champion and moving on to new challengers and Daniel Bryan moving down the card. THAT'S where they messed up. If they had done pretty much everything the same, but ended the story with Bryan coming out on top, I think it would have been just fine.

    ReplyDelete
  84. I like Waffle House. I don't know what you've got against Waffle House...
    Anyway, it just seems stupid to have a part time middle aged guy (even if it is The Rock) beat the hottest heel and longest champion for the past 25 years just to get the title to Cena. The match between Rock/Cena sucked, too, and just seemed, to me at least, like the point where everything went down

    ReplyDelete
  85. Miz gets too much hate for his title run. His big matches were against a 60+ year old announcer and needed Michael Cole's help in getting the win. No one could win in that scenario.
    He also got a concussion in his WM match. Give the guy a break.

    ReplyDelete
  86. But it made money and no matter if we love it or hate it, that is what the wrestling biz has always been about...

    ReplyDelete
  87. I always forget the Simpsons is still on. I gave up watching it when I noticed I was getting mad while watching it. I figured they had almost 10 good years and I should let it go for the people who were still enjoying it. I got over it and found something else to do.

    I'm not saying I'm some great guy or anything, just that looking back on it, that was really a big moment for me...to just let go of the stuff I didn't enjoy anymore. It's like Marvel & DC comics...I don't like what they've become and I just stopped reading them one day. I still stick my toe in the water and read occasional superhero books, but it there's suddenly a lot of bloodshed or huge, "never be the same again" changes, I just look at it funny and find something else to do.

    You're totally right...I just think I've finally gotten to a place where I can interact with comics and wrestling and not get too invested in any of it. I was really upset when Punk quit, but I got over it a day or two later.

    ReplyDelete
  88. Rock/ Cena II could've still happened. Just it wouldn't be for the title.
    I would've had Punk VS Taker as a Streak VS Streak match, myself.

    ReplyDelete
  89. I vaguely remember his run. It seems like he was always booked to look like a chump. No one can succeed in that environment.

    ReplyDelete
  90. Steen beating on Generico for 20-30 minutes with him just refusing to pack it in was money no matter how many times they ran it.

    Looks like NXT has seen that with Owens and Zayne

    ReplyDelete
  91. He was booked like Jericho in his Undisputed title run, except even worse.

    ReplyDelete
  92. I love the Rock more than any heterosexual man should, but I still don't understand why he beat Punk. The story of Punk's long reign beating all comers basically went nowhere and Rock/Cena would have drawn regardless of a title being involved.

    ReplyDelete
  93. That couldve been fine too but Rock was always getting that title and Punk was always going to lose it. I dont think Punk gets that long reign if the endgame isnt dropping it to the Rock. Its kind of like Bray getting built up for Taker today....

    ReplyDelete
  94. I got a charge out of listening the CM Punk podcast with Colt Cabana, but I got over it too. Sad that he's not part of the company anymore, but life goes on. Time to find another favorite...

    ReplyDelete
  95. I vaguely remember this.

    ReplyDelete
  96. Punk only got that long reign to drop it to the Rock. He doesnt get that long run if Rock/Cena isnt happening....

    ReplyDelete
  97. Everyone except Cena is booked to look like a chump.

    ReplyDelete
  98. If we use single crowds as examples, HHH got a damn loud " SHAWN IS BETTER" chant a couple years ago.

    ReplyDelete
  99. Undisputed title run. Supposibly the biggest moment in history with the unionification of the two biggest titles in America. Should have been treated like a big deal right? Not only was it an afterthought and put in the background of the HHH/Stef feud, but wasn't Jericho walking a dog and picking up poop? It's almost like a cruel joke on him and a few decades of wrestling right there.

    ReplyDelete
  100. 2 or 3 guys with history all being pushed strongly and meeting with identical 5-0 WM streaks could be fun.

    ReplyDelete
  101. We got Hogan - Rock out of that PPV and that was about as special of a match as I have ever seen. I'll take it I guess.

    ReplyDelete
  102. But to answer the question, WM 17 was the peak and the company has been descending ever since. The creative high, no more competition, nearly 70k in attendence. Where do you go from there?

    ReplyDelete
  103. Well you know, brother...

    ReplyDelete
  104. YankeesHoganTripleHFanFebruary 15, 2015 at 11:55 AM

    Hunter is playing the long game,,,CM Punk? He's GONE. GONE. GONE.GONE. GONE.GONE.GONE.GONE.GONE GONE. GONE GONE GONE GONE GONE GONE GONE GONE

    ReplyDelete
  105. I'm not ripping on that WrestleMania at all. My only compliant from that was Austin nearly being in the mid card. But Hogan/Rock - a magicial atmosphere that I look back at with great fondness.

    ReplyDelete
  106. Id say NOC 2011 as well. I was saying the product was awesome during that whole Summer of Punk until the realization that we were getting more of the same. Hadn't seen wrestling for 2yrs since hadnt even posted on the BoD and only came back for NXT. It pissed me off that bad.

    ReplyDelete
  107. Which is really stupid. The Rock, and to a lesser extent SCSA, transcending wrestling only did good things for WWE. Killing Punk's momentum was probably the most brain dead decision made in recent memory by WWE. And that's saying a lot.

    ReplyDelete
  108. Cena was a great heel and could easily return to it:
    http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x1xfkf_cena-raps-on-undertaker-in-graveyar_sport

    ReplyDelete
  109. But we got Brock pointlessly beating Taker's streak instead! You would sacrifice that just for a Cena heel turn?!

    ReplyDelete
  110. The funny thing is that half the posters around here were trying to defend how they handled Punk in 2011. Ridiculous then, ridiculous now.

    ReplyDelete
  111. Yeah, even the leadup to WM was all about Cena and Rock. His motivation and character going into that match literally became "Hey guys, what about me?!" Not a great storyline for the supposed top guy in the company.

    ReplyDelete
  112. Finger poke of doom moment came nearly a decade ago. Vince's son Hornswoggle. Vince having a son should have been a hot storyline. Instead we got 2 years of comedy that accomplished nothing.

    ReplyDelete
  113. They'd have to elevate new people. Oh no!

    ReplyDelete
  114. "I just think I've finally gotten to a place where I can interact with comics and wrestling and not get too invested in any of it"

    That's awesome. I would daresay things would be a lot easier for a lot of people if they were able to get to that place.

    ReplyDelete
  115. Not because of any wrestler it didn't. Guys don't draw anymore. It's the wwe name that does.

    ReplyDelete
  116. I don't know how "incredibly" messed up it is to cheat on your spouse. Something like 30-40 percent of men and women do it. It's not a good guy thing to do, but I wouldn't say "incredibly" messed up.

    ReplyDelete
  117. Punk in 2011, Bryan in 2013 and again now.

    ReplyDelete
  118. Totally agree, it's one of the most cringe inducing moments of his career. The match is nothing special either.

    ReplyDelete
  119. Careful scott. You didn't mention D Bry as a transcendent star. Gonna get some hate mail.

    ReplyDelete
  120. Watching MNW "Mistskes on the Battlefield" and Hogan goes "I'm still asking that question.. Why Hulk Hogan didn't wrestle Ric Flair at Wrestlemania" ..... Sure.....

    ReplyDelete
  121. Not calling Daniel Bryan the $100 stock price guy is tantamount to not shaking hands with the undertaker.

    ReplyDelete
  122. Nobody cares about the fucking mcmahons. We got enough of that with Cripplinda in 2001.

    ReplyDelete
  123. WM8 is a favourite of mine. Even though I love it, I think I'd have loved it even more if it was Hogan/Flair, Taker/Sid, Savage/Jake and LOD defending the Tag straps.

    ReplyDelete
  124. "JBL is poopy" Written on JBL's limo. That was the moment that Cena left is rapper gimmick behind forever and became "John Cena" and hasnt changed since.

    ReplyDelete
  125. Forbes just wrote an article talking about Vince is the businessman of the future or whatever...I'm not sure he's worried. Not saying that to be condescending or anything, just pointing out he may not really be driven t change w feedback like that.

    ReplyDelete
  126. Cheating on your spouse makes you a heel.

    ReplyDelete
  127. Why did everyone think Macho had time left? He started around the same time Hulk did.

    ReplyDelete
  128. The Poochy act didn't have long term staying power.

    ReplyDelete
  129. Key word WAS. Remember, all that was pre Ubber face Cena who seems to really be caught up in the whole wanting to be a hero to kids thing.

    ReplyDelete
  130. You didn't like him selling for el torito I get it?

    ReplyDelete
  131. If every works out perfectly, what's the ideal WM 8 card?

    Flair v Hogan
    Savage v Roberts
    Piper v Hart
    Take v sid
    Michaels v Jannetty
    LOD v money inc

    Then whatever filler you like?

    ReplyDelete
  132. Given the track record of wrestlers wives and girlfriends getting involved in storylines and the effect on those relationships, can anyone really blame the guy? I think that actually demonstrated his knowledge of the history of the business better than anything else. :)

    ReplyDelete
  133. Do we know she didn't as well? Point is he did learn a very valuable lesson from it. "I'm rich, good looking, and pussy is going to always be around." I think it's beyond dumb for any celebrity to get married.

    ReplyDelete
  134. I never saw the screw job from Austin on Bryan coming at all. In fact a year and a half later even the mention of it still shocks me ;)

    ReplyDelete
  135. Anything would have been better than what we ended up with for a decade afterwards. I would have preferred "John Cena.... Dog Catcher" and have him come out dressed like the beagle boys from Duck Tales, then what we got.

    ReplyDelete
  136. Shit man.... its not that bad... Do you know what your saying?

    ReplyDelete
  137. You're really drawing straws if you have a problem with that RAW moment when both of them returned.

    ReplyDelete
  138. He also went on the howard stern show and bragged about banging 5 (or 3, I think 5 though) at once.

    ReplyDelete
  139. Sorry. Got carried away in the moment.

    ReplyDelete
  140. I wasn't watching at the time, so I just need this clarified. Punk is given the green light to break the fourth wall in a manner never previously afforded a wrestler, the entire program is built around him for months, he pins Cena and gets to "walk out" of the company with the Championship....
    Then after all that, his big return match receives the lowest Summerslam buyrate in 15 years?
    And people are confused why WWE didn't go all in on him?

    ReplyDelete
  141. You would doom us to Cena vs Rick Steiner?

    ReplyDelete
  142. I think if it had been someone other than Papa Shango on the run in the whole main event might be locked out a little differently. I mean you have Hulk Hogan, Ultimate Warrior and Sid- with a combined 20+ world title reigns and 10+ Wrestlemania main events between them) and the fourth guy is s pure gimmick whose biggest career success would come 9 years later as a pimp.

    Problem is they had just face turned Taker, Flair and Savage were tied up, Shawn, Razor, Brett and even Yoko were still at least a year away, Jake had just be destroyed and Piper would have been out of place.

    Yeah- it should have been Hogan/Flair, but I think people look back more fondly if Warrior saves Hogan from two Hall of Fame calibre attackers- not Sid and a guy who would not get a run with Hulk on the house show circuit in the 80s

    That might have been the single most stacked roster ever- but it was really handled weirdly

    ReplyDelete
  143. I have always thought people thinking Punk was going to be the next breakout star were more wishfully thinking than based in the realities of the situation. HHH going over or not going over wouldn't have made much difference, I feel. If he went over HHH and then still had crappy feuds with John Laurinitis for 6 months, it's still the same result.

    ReplyDelete
  144. Hornswoggle being Vince's son seems to be the turning point when WWE became about bad comedy and nonsense over wrestling. That's the main reason I chose it as WWE's fingerpoke of doom moment.

    ReplyDelete
  145. Big show vs Orton got low buyrates. Both are still main eventers.

    ReplyDelete
  146. I don't think it's my place to judge them for what they do, merely to observe them doing it.

    ReplyDelete
  147. I would think the Finger Poke Of Doom for me came this past Rumble and ALLLLLL the nonsense that surrounded it and everything that came out since then

    ReplyDelete
  148. Wow. I don't remember that at all - goes to show how imprinted the current version of Cena is, I guess. And I sure as hell can't imagine anyone, let alone Cena, taking a piss on a tombstone right there on TV these days! Obviously this is well before Linda's Senate run...

    ReplyDelete
  149. I thought your point was that Cena getting divorced didn't make him a real life heel. I was just saying that if Cena cheated on his spouse, he's still a real life heel, regardless of whether she did as well or not. Not having the integrity to respect the commitment you made someone is being a heel.
    Now, whether one thinks it's dumb to make that commitment in the first place (as you stated) or whether someone "learns a lesson" from it doesn't negate them being a heel for violating that commitment.

    ReplyDelete
  150. I don't think there's just one Fingerpooe moment - it's more like a continuum of them. One that I haven't seen mentioned here (apologies if I missed it) was Linda McM's Senate run - arguably, it forced the company to dial things way back.

    ReplyDelete
  151. Sojust out of curiousity SK, assuming the actual match pairings were locked in stone, would you have done the Warrior surprise differently or simply had the matches and post match outcomes go as they did but in a different order?

    ReplyDelete
  152. That kind of shit is why I won't ever trust Hunter to run a wrestling company. His fragile ego syndrome makes him a huge threat to the business.

    ReplyDelete
  153. The Komen Foundation partnership. I'm fine with the celebrity guest hosts (except for Grumpy Cat) as "shit the WWE does," but the pink ropes and pink merchandise just screams desperation for "things that will look good on press releases that we can hand out before earnings calls"

    ReplyDelete
  154. Well no one should have to sell for El Torito, so yeah. But mostly it was watching my fave out there looking like every step was pure agony.

    ReplyDelete
  155. My Client, bROCK Lesnar!February 15, 2015 at 1:29 PM

    TNA fucking up over and over so that there could never be true competition is what did it.

    ReplyDelete
  156. Theberzerker Von HUSSingtonFebruary 15, 2015 at 1:32 PM

    The sad fact is a very large part of their audience are mindless couch potatoes who just watch it because it's on and pop for HHH & Show & Kane because they remember them from the Attitude era.

    ReplyDelete
  157. Theberzerker Von HUSSingtonFebruary 15, 2015 at 1:36 PM

    Yeah, WECW being run solely by Paul in a reinvention of the Dangerous Alliance angle would have made money hand over fist. But RAW in Tacoma frightened Vince too badly to let anyone else but the McMahons head everything.

    ReplyDelete
  158. "...but he was the last guy who could have been the guy to be bigger than the company and they deliberately killed him off."


    :: pondering ::


    I can't believe I never saw this before. It's so obvious. Follow Hoss on this one, kids.


    Assume, for a moment, that Scott was right. CM Punk was the last guy who had a chance to be bigger than the company and they killed him off. Who was Punk's last significant opponent?


    Undertaker. Dead man.

    Who was effectively killed off at the last WM?

    Undertaker. Dead man.

    Who killed him? Baaarrrock Lesnar. This same man also beat the hell out of Punk, and he destroyed Cena. So, what's going to happen?

    CM Punk will be back. At the next WM, as a new character. He will essentially assume the Undertaker's role - DM Punk.


    Or, you know. Not.


    #HossBooking

    ReplyDelete
  159. He will come out after Lesnar's match and point, then ascend into the rafters. Or, Jannetty will. Something.


    #HossBooking

    ReplyDelete
  160. Punk was never going to be bigger than the company. Come back down to reality, please.


    The overbooked loss to HHH didn't help him but sure as hell didn't "kill him off". He got the belt shortly after and literally stayed in the main event for years. Also despite being a face he held that belt longer than all 8 of Rock's reigns combined. Before feuding with the Rock and Undertaker.


    I dunno, this notion that WWE didn't give Punk enough is absurd to me. He got everything and more.

    ReplyDelete
  161. Except that Cena was still often at the top of the card without the belt.

    ReplyDelete
  162. I more or less agree with this. We have no way of knowing for sure obviously, but I don't think Punk was ever going to be the megastar people thought he would. For me, the big tragedy of that summer/fall wasn't the mishandling of Punk specifically, it was them not making the most out of the highly interesting (to me anyway) conspiracy stuff, which concerned the whole roster rather than just one guy.

    ReplyDelete
  163. After his initial extended main event run, Orton spent several years as an upper midcarder before he turned heel at SummerSlam '13. Also, Bryan drew an even worse buyrate with Orton than Show did, and they treated him pretty well.

    ReplyDelete
  164. Some guys draw more than others. The Rock is indisputably a much bigger deal than Punk.

    ReplyDelete
  165. I remember Bryan from "Bryan and Vinny" saying something to the effect "TNA has had no downfall. To have a downfall you need to have a rise. TNA's existence has been a series of falls, over and over." It's true; TNA's "Fingerpoke of Doom" moment was when they launched.

    ReplyDelete
  166. For mine, it was Summerslam 2004. Chris Benoit was a breath of fresh air at the top; so let's stick him with Kane and Big Show for a couple of months with no story or plan; then have him drop the belt to Orton because Orton.
    More than anything, that was the "we don't care about your guy, we're going to keep shoving our guy down your throats" moment. And 10 years later, all the same people are still making the same decisions...

    ReplyDelete
  167. Adam "Colorado" CurryFebruary 15, 2015 at 2:10 PM

    Miz is terrible, he deserves all the hate he gets.

    ReplyDelete
  168. Regarding the "Fingerpoke of Doom:" while it was very bad moment in WCW history, it is by no means what killed the company. WCW had problems so deep in it's overall structure that even when it was doing good, it was doing so in spite of its' serious problems. Which, in a way, is what WWF/E has done. Even at it's most successful, it's greatest strength has always been what ultimately kills it (Vince).

    ReplyDelete
  169. Yeah, that is when I noticed things were . . . . . . different.

    ReplyDelete
  170. Adam "Colorado" CurryFebruary 15, 2015 at 2:12 PM

    Agreed. That officially kicked off the part timer era.

    ReplyDelete
  171. I'm gonna have to agree with the boss here; for all his big talk, HHH really should've put Punk over in a crazy brawl, the way Mick did for him and Orton years before. Funny enough, both Bryan and The Shield DID get to go over HHH in a big way, so maybe it was just HHH having heat with Punk.

    ReplyDelete
  172. I actually enjoyed the silent build (it was different), but could have done without the forced SIGN POINTING.


    I know their product is PG, but even kids and senile old people could have connected the dots ("hey, let's fight at Wrestlemania") without their hand being held through a parade of sign-pointing.


    Also incase anyone had blacked it out of their memory: this match was the bright spot of that show. WM27 was bad. Really bad. Jupiter Ascending bad.

    ReplyDelete
  173. It's kind of sad that the guy HHH put over the strongest and cleanest ended up murdering his family and being stripped from WWE history.


    Ok, it's very sad.

    ReplyDelete
  174. Adam "Colorado" CurryFebruary 15, 2015 at 2:15 PM

    If I had to pick a moment for them it would be Raven jobbing to Jarrett.

    ReplyDelete
  175. seemed a little fresher from a bit less exposure and having two heel runs and two face runs.

    ReplyDelete
  176. Yeah, the Bischoff episode has guys openly talking on how Bischoff had no idea how Hogan and Nash were playing him like a fiddle in WCW.

    ReplyDelete
  177. Hogan could have easily destroyed Ric Flair - he was "worthy" of the spot.

    ReplyDelete
  178. I'd say that if you consider the FoD the moment WCW jumps the shark, that can be when WWE indirectly jumped the shark, or was heading towards it. Cause that begat all the moves that ended the company in 2001, and to me the inVasion was the point of no return.

    ReplyDelete
  179. The day Hogan dies, he will be buried at the top of Mount Everest, because Hogan will never lay down under anyone.

    ReplyDelete
  180. Yeah if Flair was going over Savage then this would have been absolutely appropriate. But, of course, Flair wasn't and Hogan was Hogan. It's like asking why dogs like their asses. It's what Hogan does. And no way he was gonna allow Savage to close WM alone in his glory.

    ReplyDelete
  181. HTM reign. He lucked out of every loss till Rock got it back.

    ReplyDelete
  182. Oddly, that guy is what led to another possible permanent shark jump. As it helped beget PG which I am shocked no one has mentioned given how many people whine about it (yet forget the attempts at reviving Attitude, like Katie Vick)

    ReplyDelete
  183. I honestly think Punk tapped into the frustration of a growing part of the crowd, it was an amazing few months but like every other moment that could have changed the company since it "won" the Monday night war, we will never know because they threw it to one side before anything happened. Imagine if WWE had done something with Nexus other than job them to Cena, then Punk hits his stride, then Brock Returns then Bryan starts the Yes movement. Stack those completely blown chances against what we actually got since 2011.

    ReplyDelete