Who wants to discuss RAW when we can discuss what I think about stuff totally unrelated to RAW? Also, I'm doing the NXT recap/discussion thing on the Sporting News starting this Thursday as well, so that's pretty cool.
I'd always heard Bishoff wanted SuperBrawl as their biggest card. That's why they had the World War 3 winner get his title shot there, to mimmick the Royal Rumble/WrestleMania connection and I guess maybe he figured with it being in Febuary before Mania in March, he could potentially get in more casual "big card buys" before they blow the $ on Mania instead.
I'm with Bayless about wondering if Orton actually got clocked in the head for real. He was acting very weird and sluggish for a good part of the match.
And JBL seemed particularly bad on commentary during parts of the Orton/Rollins match.
I've heard SuperBrawl, the Great American Bash, *and* Halloween Havoc were all at one time considered their Wrestlemania-level PPV by Bischoff. For whatever reason, he never cared for Starrcade.
Vince has only just learned about the dot com era, and realized that, by starting a new paradigm, he gets to define his own parameters for success. In this case, the more "signups" the better, even if it's the same person using his fifth email address.
I always remembered Scott Hall wrestling for the title at SuperBrawl in 98, but then your Uncensored post reminded me they did Hogan VS Sting rematch at SuperBrawl that year after stripping Sting of the title after Starcade.
They didn't have a ton of other choices in 2000 though. Maybe Steiner VS Sting, but I don't remember him being around at that time (I think he last wrestled at Halloween Havoc that year?). Steiner VS DDP was maybe the other option, but he and Nash were feuding with the Natural Born Thrillers at the time. Booker T VS Steiner was played out a bit, Goldberg couldn't get a shot because of that silly streak beating stipulation Russo gave him and nobody wanted to see Jarrett as a face.
The Hogan match. HBK, while not my style is still an otherworldly talent, and crummy performances from guys like that are like Itzhak Perlman mailing it in.
That depends WHEN you start "HBK" from. Because when he started suing that name in early 1992(?) he had lots of very bad matches. He only became a better singles wrestler some time later.
Steiner vs Goldberg was the best possible match they could have done to draw. Yeah, I know they did the stupid stip gimmick for Goldberg, but it's wrestling where it's common to ignore and forget things when it starts getting inconvenient.
And besides Sid was the worst choice at the time where ANYBODY but Sid would have been a better choice. Sid just had the whole negative stigma at the time, which Kane and Show have now.
I know I'm in the minority here, but I don't think they were dicking around with him. Bryan was in the main event almost that entire time between the SummerSlam 2013 build and WrestleMania XXX, with the exception being the brief time he feuded with the Wyatts. And even then, Bryan segments were opening and closing out RAW and Smackdown pretty much every week. He was the focus of the company, even if he wasn't as dominant as his fans wanted him to be booked. And while WWE held off Bryan's big coronation title victory until WM, he rarely lost in the ring in that stretch, he won the title at NOC (having it taken back the next night) and during the Abeyance period, Bryan never lost the title or a title shot cleanly.
The great part about the Fabulous Blackbirds is that winning the belt is almost secondary as long as they protect Woods. Woods gets the heat and the teams fight like hell to just shut him up.
I disagree as they stated to use Bryan as a step up feud for Cena. Orton beats Bryan at Hell in a Cell , 2 PPV later faces Cena. Bray beats Bryan at Rumble, 2 PPV later faces Cena. Even after Bryan won the world title he had to face Kane in a Russo-like fued, meanwhile shield vs. evolution was the fued pushed on TV.
Yeah, it's nice Cena is giving all the lowercard guys competitive matches, but it's not like those lower card have gone onto do better things after the Cena match. Cody Rhodes is pretty much stuck in the same spot he is now than before the Cena match and it's not like Cody has gotten more over since the Cena match.
But if they used the whole US open challenge for Rusev instead of Cena, at least it'd be designed to get one guy over.
Not denying that, but Zayn and Neville are going back to NXT (I think) so by the time they get called up to the main roster again, their matches would have been forgotton about.
It drew money but the matches sucked and has very little rewatchability factor. It's like Transformers. Those movies made a whole bunch of money, but those movies sucked.
This wasn't always the case. The whole Wrestlemania mystique thing didn't set in until around Wrestlemania 14 or so. Before that there were tons of Wrestlemanias that were just another ppv and not treated as a big deal by anyone working them.
Yeah after Orton won the title, I remember Orton giving Bryan a title shot on a random Smackdown show, which Orton won cleanly. There were obviously no long term plans for Bryan at WM30 before fans forced their hand.
With the exception for a few WM's, Wrestlemania had always been treated as a big deal for the most part. WM14 was basically the first time that WWE started celebrating WM's rich history.
I'd say that during the Bischoff era of WCW which is the only time anyone ever watched the damn product anyway. You had about four major ppvs.
Superbrawl 95 had Hogan/Vader, 96 was Hogan/Giant, 97 was Hogan/Piper, 98 was Hogan/Sting. All very huge main event matches for WCW.
Then you had Bash at the Beach 94 is Hogan/Flair, 95 Hogan/Vader, 96 the Outsiders, 97 Luger/Giant vs. Hogan/Rodman, 98 DDP/Malone vs. HoganRodman
Halloween Havoc 94 is Hogan/Flair, 95 is Giant/Hogan, 96 is Savage/Hogan which isn't that big of a deal really. 97 was Hogan/Piper this match was shit on wrestling quality wise but it drew a monster buyrate second biggest buyrate of the year and at that time it was the biggest buyrate in the history of the company until Starrcade of that year. 98 Goldberg/DDP, Hogan/Warrior
And then you had your Starrcade Main Events Hogan/Piper, Hogan/Sting, Nash/Goldberg (which drew the third biggest buyrate in WCW history)
The damage wasn't caused from Hogan/Piper and Hogan/Sting. The damage was caused after those matches. Hell Superbrawl IX (99) did 485,000 buys in 99 that was huge. It did more buys than WWF King of the Ring and Survivor Series that year.
So thats 2 and a half years after Hogan/Piper and they company is still doing just fine so that certainly didn't have any long term damage. Its also a year and a half after Sting/Hogan that supposedly killed the company.
So I don't think its accurate at all to say that there was a long term damage atleast no long term damage that was caused by any of those pay per views or their results.
Oh I'd definitely disagree on Hogan vs. Sting. That was the one big moment that they had built up to for years and they screwed it up worse than probably any big main event in history.
In the entertainment business if something makes money a lot of it then it doesn't suck. Thats the entire point of the medium is to make money. I think its been proven time and time again that niche hardcore fans of any medium are much harder to satisfy than the mainstream masses. Everything from wrestling, to music (Nickleback are huge), to movies (Transformers all make like a billion dollars).
Not to mention that there are a TON of good matches on all three of those shows. Dragon/Malenko was good, Liger/Rey was good, Jarrett/Benoit, Eddie/DDP, Eddie/Dean, Saturn/Benoit, and on and on. The main events weren't ***** NJPW classics but they weren't meant to be. So yeah I don't agree that any of it sucked. The matches were good, they made a ton of money, and they put on marquee main events that a lot of people paid a lot of money to watch and then were satisfied enough to continue to pay a lot of money every month for years on end for a similar product.
The numbers don't support that though. The numbers say that people were still watching WCW in droves for well over a year. Again Supberawl IX (99) out drew Survivor Series and King of the Ring that year. Their TV rating the show before Starrcade was a 4.6 which was their highest rating ever at that point. They held a 4.0 or higher rating for all but one show after that until May of 1999. So yeah it wasn't that main event that killed WCW. They are still drawing 4.0's or damn near two years after that and a year after Goldberg/Nash so that main event or the one after it didn't screw up anything. People were still tuning in and paying a lot of money to watch their ppv's damn near all of 1999.
Right and the first time the workers really gave a damn about treating it like a big deal. I'm not saying there weren't great matches obviously there was but you never hear about anyone saying "man it was Wrestlemania 8 I just knew I had to put on the match of the night".
I'm sure they're good at it but copying Macho Man and Hogan is pretty much a dry well at this point. Sandow is good enough to be his own man and Curtis has proven all he needed was Mic time to develop himself.
With Daniel Bryan potentially done -- or at least out for a while -- would it be a bad idea for WWE to quickly move Sami Zayn up the card to fill that everyman/underdog main-event (or hovering near main event) role that Bryan leaves behind?
"In the entertainment business if something makes money a lot of it then it doesn't suck."
Last I checked we are not in the business, so why should I rate stuff based on popularity. I think TolstoIn the entertainment business if something makes money a lot of it then it doesn't suck.
Niche people are harder to satisfy than masses? No shit, when you really care about something you have higher standards for it. a combination of apathy and ignorance to superior art will do that.
Thus why I am not impressed by Nickelback, or bad WCW ppv's no matter how much money they made. Whoop-dee fucking doo lots of folks thought they were good. there is no logical connection between popularity and quality. High quality things may be more likely to gain popularity, but one does not nessesitate they other.
The point of the arts isn't just to make money. A lot of people genuinely care about their messege, or the purity of their craft, or beauty for beauty's sake. I get we have a social system which places capital above all else (it's impossible to value near anything more than money when you need money to sustain and support anything you value) but just accepting whoever has the makes the most money as best is awful.
I mean you personally or any one person or group of people can think it sucked but that doesn't make it unsuccessful. Historic amounts of people watched these shows and paid a lot of money to do so and continued to do so for years. That to me not only says that the shows were successful but continued to be successful in order to maintain that level of sustainability for multiple years.
Professional Wrestling isn't an "art" atleast not WCW or the WWE. WCW was owned by Turner a souless corporation and ran by Eric Bischoff during its most susccessful bout who never looked at it as anything more than a business. Its most susccesful stars were Nash, Hall, Hogan, etc all men were are regarded as ruthless businessmen. There were people there that considered it an art sure but that doesn't make it one. The company that owned it never considered it an art, the man that ran it never considered it such and the men that made it successful and profitable never considered it such. You can regard it anyway you want but when everyone involved in something doesn't consider it art I would find it strange for anyone else to.
This is all semantics. You can consider it art if you want, you can consider it unsuccessful or not good if you want. Hell you can even consider yourself right but. Turner and WCW were businesses that put on profitable business ventures multiple months for several years.
Even on an artisic level if you look at it as live theater how is it not successful that men were able to go out there and talk people into buying these pay per views for years on end. No one called and asked for their money back because Hogan/Piper wasn't *****, no one trashed the ring when Piper won, hell nobody even vocally booed. So again you can consider it what you but it made money, it gained historic amounts of viewers, and it told a story the overwhelming majority were happy with. I can't fathom a world were thats not an overhwelming success.
But how do you define entertainment. Piper/Hogan had a half a million people in North America alone purchase a pay per view one of the largest tradional pay per view audiences in history and easily the largest pay per view audience in that companies history. It sold out the arena, it made people tune into television every week at historic rates to see what they would do next. They told the story on pay per view and even more people tuned into the television show in the following weeks to see where the story was headed next. If thats not success in entertainment I have no idea what is.
Still in high level feuds two decades later, and I was talking about THE GIANT!!! Considering that his name change to The Big Show wasn't exactly a character transformation.
should read the books of the old school guys, WM was a huge deal from the start... was the biggest payday of the year, the show everyone wanted to be on, only time of the year the company had a short vacation after during the early ones, and the only time the entire roster met up at once
If the reader actually bothered to watch the Starrcades, he'd find that '95 is really cool; '96 has a great undercard; '97's main event is epic and flawed; and 2000 has the ladder match and a fun bunkhouse match. But, I know, blahblahBecauseWCW, DX tank, etc.
I'd say Starrcade was shit well before 94 honestly. 90 had the payoff to the horrifyingly stupid Black Scorpion angle, 91-92 had boring gimmick tournaments and 93 was a shit show until Flair and Vader saved it.
Halloween Havoc seemed like a bigger show than Starrcade for a while. Bash at the Beach became the WCW's Summerslam. I think Superbrawl was really the big deal and most of those shows had better main events and undercards than Starrcade.
Just finished fast forwarding through Raw. Shocked that the show ended with Dean Ambrose standing triumphant in the ring, while Cole heralded the amazing NXT match between Sami Zayn and Kevin Owens. The end of Raw was the very definition of Bizarro World.
In spite of Scott being a non-religious person (technically, so am I - Christ isn't a religion), I'm always touched to hear how God drew him to Himself by using Ted Diabise as His vessel. Christ may have been rejected, but I am respectfully happy that similar to Dr. Stanley to Livingson - that Scott was respectfully touched by the humility and meekness from Diabise.
I did meet Bret Hart in 2009 briefly - and Hulk Hogan in 2007. I wasn't a Christian in 2007 and Hogan was my idol - the man. I was in awe at the sight of him. I called him the "--- of wrestling" and he kind of chuckled. I think he's just a old school carny that means no harm - but he's always working you and when he meets fans - he's almost level headed. Now Bubba, on the other hand, boasted about what a great wrestler he was. This was when Bubba and Hogan were still buddies. And Bubba had his fans in that match in Memphis. Every WWF and TNA reject was at that Memphis show.
Now Bret was different. It was a book signing in November 2009. Still wasn't saved, hanging out with some Atheist buddies of mine. Bret was low key, but polite. Amazed I had the Canadian version of the book, which I later lost - and thanked me from coming.
I also met Slick in 2007. Really low key. Almost think he revived the act for money. He seemed put off when I told him how funny he was at WrestleMania. Or maybe he was humble. I don't kbow.
Saw Jimmy Valient without a beard in 2007 - didn't meet him because I had no clue it was him. Same Memphis event.
I know as far back as Superbrawl III in 93, they were billing it as the biggest event of the year. That was the very end of the Watts era but Bischoff was there albeit with little to no power. Not sure if demoting Starrcade was the intention going back to the 1st Superbrawl since it had a strange main event (to non Japanese fans).
I really don't understand. People here complained that the new WWE Network programming didn't have enough wrestling. Then they got the King of the Ring special and now the Elimination Chamber special. And what do they do? Complain about them.
Then again, this wouldn't be smark central if it wasn't full of constant complaints.
96 is a great show. Yeah, Hogan/Piper sucked, but the heat was off the charts. 97 was a letdown due to bad booking. 98 is god awful after the first 2 matches. 2000 was about the best show they could have gotten with the roster at that point.
During Wrestlemania 21 weekend, we saw William Regal in our movie theater with his son. We were watching Sin City. He saw my Eddie Guerrero shirt as we walked in and we exchanged nods, knowingly. It was a moment that I'm sure he remembers to this day.
I was interviewed by Byron Saxton back in like 2006 for a short local news piece. He came to my house and recognized my Eddie guerrero shirt and talked for a few minutes about him ring announcing on the indies. Seeing him interview top guys now is a strange feeling.
I met Ric Flair at the airport in Toronto after WrestleMania X-8. He was quiet, but cool. He took a picture with me and signed my friend's ticket. Most other encounters were at official signings so it's probably not the best representation of what they're like, but I do remember Edge in particular being very kind.
I think it was Scott (and I'm sure many others) who simply suggested just saying "your first month is free." This is pretty standard in virtually any subscription based program and the perception is a lot less negative than already doing, what, like 3 free months in 2015 alone?
The numbers also say that the WWF started winning just a few months after Starrcade. WCW wasn't killed by Sting vs. Hogan, but it took off a limb or two. You can't build up to one show and one match for over a year and then botch it that badly, then say "oh yeah if you want to see the real result, buy this other show two months from now." It doesn't work.
I've met a metric ton of wrestlers at indie shows. Daniel Bryan is one of the nicest people on Earth. Just a really super nice guy and always a pleasure to speak to.
Bobby is doing quite well for someone who has fought cancer for years. His voice is mostly gone due to the surgeries - but he can still talk. I saw a video of him walking around in 2014 - he still has it. I do know he cut a promo in 2008 where he melted down for a website and in 2009 - his jaw was gone. It's a blessing he is still here. Hope i get a chance to meet him someday.
The Edge deal was really weird because we had been chatting off and on for a while that year and then he blew up after I gave the Eddie Guerrero match ****1/2 instead of ***** and he never talked to me again.
It would be a good idea if he wasn't injured too. He never needed development, and he's been down there for 2 years. I truly think HHH wants to keep him (and Balor and Owens) for himself.
I'd always heard Bishoff wanted SuperBrawl as their biggest card. That's why they had the World War 3 winner get his title shot there, to mimmick the Royal Rumble/WrestleMania connection and I guess maybe he figured with it being in Febuary before Mania in March, he could potentially get in more casual "big card buys" before they blow the $ on Mania instead.
ReplyDeleteHe can team with "The Vigilante" Sting!
ReplyDeleteI'm with Bayless about wondering if Orton actually got clocked in the head for real. He was acting very weird and sluggish for a good part of the match.
ReplyDeleteAnd JBL seemed particularly bad on commentary during parts of the Orton/Rollins match.
Actually no one ever got their shot at SuperBrawl.
ReplyDelete1995 - Match was for the title.
1996 - Title shot at Souled Out
1997 - Title shot at Uncensored
1998 - Title shot at Starrcade
I've been mentioned on the Sporting News. I'm not sure how to handle this.
ReplyDeletere Letter #3: I'm trying to think of a bad HBK match, and I'm drawing a blank. Anyone?
ReplyDeleteWhich matches not getting five stars were they that got Edge and Jericho so riled up?
ReplyDeleteI've heard SuperBrawl, the Great American Bash, *and* Halloween Havoc were all at one time considered their Wrestlemania-level PPV by Bischoff. For whatever reason, he never cared for Starrcade.
ReplyDeleteVince has only just learned about the dot com era, and realized that, by starting a new paradigm, he gets to define his own parameters for success. In this case, the more "signups" the better, even if it's the same person using his fifth email address.
ReplyDeleteAnybody vs Joe Gomez.
ReplyDelete"Worst was probably Edge and Chris Jericho throwing temper tantrums in my e-mail in succession in 2002 because I didn’t give matches ***** ratings."
ReplyDeleteLOL - Edge or Jericho? Throwing a pout like a toddler? I'm shocked!!!
HBK vs Marty Janetty cage match.
ReplyDeleteI really don't like the Ironman match.
ReplyDeleteThe time limit really hurt them. Make that a thirty minute match or so and it's far more entertaining.
ReplyDeleteI don't know what the fuck this guy is talking about, Starrcade 95 definitely din not suck.
ReplyDeleteLast 25 minutes were pretty much *****. The first 40 minutes were... not *****.
ReplyDeleteI know it could never be a long-term feud, but give me at least one short tag title program with New Day and the New Mega Powers. PLEEEEEEEEEASE!
ReplyDeleteYeah it's way too much killing time, though I easily understand why they had to do it that way.
ReplyDeleteWhich is why it shouldn't have been and Ironman match.
ReplyDeleteI always remembered Scott Hall wrestling for the title at SuperBrawl in 98, but then your Uncensored post reminded me they did Hogan VS Sting rematch at SuperBrawl that year after stripping Sting of the title after Starcade.
ReplyDeleteIndeed. You either have to go nuts like Rock and HHH did or have a really good way of cranking up the drama.
ReplyDeleteJericho/RVD at KOTR 02 and I think Edge/Eddy in 2002.
ReplyDeleteShawn's worst match was probably a * match, which he got from working with Kamala or something.
ReplyDeleteThey didn't have a ton of other choices in 2000 though. Maybe Steiner VS Sting, but I don't remember him being around at that time (I think he last wrestled at Halloween Havoc that year?). Steiner VS DDP was maybe the other option, but he and Nash were feuding with the Natural Born Thrillers at the time. Booker T VS Steiner was played out a bit, Goldberg couldn't get a shot because of that silly streak beating stipulation Russo gave him and nobody wanted to see Jarrett as a face.
ReplyDeleteThe Hogan match. HBK, while not my style is still an otherworldly talent, and crummy performances from guys like that are like Itzhak Perlman mailing it in.
ReplyDeleteAnd WrestleMania has had a bad run of suck.
ReplyDeleteBoth those matches sucked.
ReplyDeleteThe whole thing was pretty boring.
ReplyDeleteThat depends WHEN you start "HBK" from. Because when he started suing that name in early 1992(?) he had lots of very bad matches. He only became a better singles wrestler some time later.
ReplyDeleteSteiner vs Goldberg was the best possible match they could have done to draw. Yeah, I know they did the stupid stip gimmick for Goldberg, but it's wrestling where it's common to ignore and forget things when it starts getting inconvenient.
ReplyDeleteAnd besides Sid was the worst choice at the time where ANYBODY but Sid would have been a better choice. Sid just had the whole negative stigma at the time, which Kane and Show have now.
I know I'm in the minority here, but I don't think they were dicking around with him. Bryan was in the main event almost that entire time between the SummerSlam 2013 build and WrestleMania XXX, with the exception being the brief time he feuded with the Wyatts. And even then, Bryan segments were opening and closing out RAW and Smackdown pretty much every week. He was the focus of the company, even if he wasn't as dominant as his fans wanted him to be booked. And while WWE held off Bryan's big coronation title victory until WM, he rarely lost in the ring in that stretch, he won the title at NOC (having it taken back the next night) and during the Abeyance period, Bryan never lost the title or a title shot cleanly.
ReplyDeleteI hope not, for Balor's sake. Out of nowhere title wins with new guys are confusing for the majority of fans.
ReplyDeleteI think by using Cena they are putting over multiple guys.
ReplyDeleteI've been really impressed with their handling of Neville. Dude looks like a star. It helps that he's charismatic and a freak athlete.
ReplyDeleteThe great part about the Fabulous Blackbirds is that winning the belt is almost secondary as long as they protect Woods. Woods gets the heat and the teams fight like hell to just shut him up.
ReplyDeleteI disagree as they stated to use Bryan as a step up feud for Cena. Orton beats Bryan at Hell in a Cell , 2 PPV later faces Cena. Bray beats Bryan at Rumble, 2 PPV later faces Cena. Even after Bryan won the world title he had to face Kane in a Russo-like fued, meanwhile shield vs. evolution was the fued pushed on TV.
ReplyDeleteYeah, it's nice Cena is giving all the lowercard guys competitive matches, but it's not like those lower card have gone onto do better things after the Cena match. Cody Rhodes is pretty much stuck in the same spot he is now than before the Cena match and it's not like Cody has gotten more over since the Cena match.
ReplyDeleteBut if they used the whole US open challenge for Rusev instead of Cena, at least it'd be designed to get one guy over.
He IS putting new people over. Zayn and Neville came out of those matches looking great.
ReplyDeleteNot denying that, but Zayn and Neville are going back to NXT (I think) so by the time they get called up to the main roster again, their matches would have been forgotton about.
ReplyDeleteYeah, only time I like Cena is when he wrestles and now he's having ***+ matches weekly.
ReplyDeleteStarrcade 96, 97 and 98 were three of the highest grossing events in the companies history so I'm not sure how you could say they sucked.
ReplyDeleteIt drew money but the matches sucked and has very little rewatchability factor. It's like Transformers. Those movies made a whole bunch of money, but those movies sucked.
ReplyDeleteThey did well in the short term, but the long term damage was far more important.
ReplyDeleteThis wasn't always the case. The whole Wrestlemania mystique thing didn't set in until around Wrestlemania 14 or so. Before that there were tons of Wrestlemanias that were just another ppv and not treated as a big deal by anyone working them.
ReplyDeleteYeah after Orton won the title, I remember Orton giving Bryan a title shot on a random Smackdown show, which Orton won cleanly. There were obviously no long term plans for Bryan at WM30 before fans forced their hand.
ReplyDeleteWith the exception for a few WM's, Wrestlemania had always been treated as a big deal for the most part. WM14 was basically the first time that WWE started celebrating WM's rich history.
ReplyDeleteI'd say that during the Bischoff era of WCW which is the only time anyone ever watched the damn product anyway. You had about four major ppvs.
ReplyDeleteSuperbrawl 95 had Hogan/Vader, 96 was Hogan/Giant, 97 was Hogan/Piper, 98 was Hogan/Sting. All very huge main event matches for WCW.
Then you had Bash at the Beach 94 is Hogan/Flair, 95 Hogan/Vader, 96 the Outsiders, 97 Luger/Giant vs. Hogan/Rodman, 98 DDP/Malone vs. HoganRodman
Halloween Havoc 94 is Hogan/Flair, 95 is Giant/Hogan, 96 is Savage/Hogan which isn't that big of a deal really. 97 was Hogan/Piper this match was shit on wrestling quality wise but it drew a monster buyrate second biggest buyrate of the year and at that time it was the biggest buyrate in the history of the company until Starrcade of that year. 98 Goldberg/DDP, Hogan/Warrior
And then you had your Starrcade Main Events Hogan/Piper, Hogan/Sting, Nash/Goldberg (which drew the third biggest buyrate in WCW history)
Hollywood Tommy Hall, coming right up.
ReplyDeleteEdge/Eddy no DQ on Smackdown was good. Jericho/RVD was a disappointment though.
ReplyDeleteThe damage wasn't caused from Hogan/Piper and Hogan/Sting. The damage was caused after those matches. Hell Superbrawl IX (99) did 485,000 buys in 99 that was huge. It did more buys than WWF King of the Ring and Survivor Series that year.
ReplyDeleteSo thats 2 and a half years after Hogan/Piper and they company is still doing just fine so that certainly didn't have any long term damage. Its also a year and a half after Sting/Hogan that supposedly killed the company.
So I don't think its accurate at all to say that there was a long term damage atleast no long term damage that was caused by any of those pay per views or their results.
Oh I'd definitely disagree on Hogan vs. Sting. That was the one big moment that they had built up to for years and they screwed it up worse than probably any big main event in history.
ReplyDeleteHollywood, Maryland maybe.
ReplyDeleteIn the entertainment business if something makes money a lot of it then it doesn't suck. Thats the entire point of the medium is to make money. I think its been proven time and time again that niche hardcore fans of any medium are much harder to satisfy than the mainstream masses. Everything from wrestling, to music (Nickleback are huge), to movies (Transformers all make like a billion dollars).
ReplyDeleteNot to mention that there are a TON of good matches on all three of those shows. Dragon/Malenko was good, Liger/Rey was good, Jarrett/Benoit, Eddie/DDP, Eddie/Dean, Saturn/Benoit, and on and on. The main events weren't ***** NJPW classics but they weren't meant to be. So yeah I don't agree that any of it sucked. The matches were good, they made a ton of money, and they put on marquee main events that a lot of people paid a lot of money to watch and then were satisfied enough to continue to pay a lot of money every month for years on end for a similar product.
The numbers don't support that though. The numbers say that people were still watching WCW in droves for well over a year. Again Supberawl IX (99) out drew Survivor Series and King of the Ring that year. Their TV rating the show before Starrcade was a 4.6 which was their highest rating ever at that point. They held a 4.0 or higher rating for all but one show after that until May of 1999. So yeah it wasn't that main event that killed WCW. They are still drawing 4.0's or damn near two years after that and a year after Goldberg/Nash so that main event or the one after it didn't screw up anything. People were still tuning in and paying a lot of money to watch their ppv's damn near all of 1999.
ReplyDeleteRight and the first time the workers really gave a damn about treating it like a big deal. I'm not saying there weren't great matches obviously there was but you never hear about anyone saying "man it was Wrestlemania 8 I just knew I had to put on the match of the night".
ReplyDeleteAnother fucking earthquake?Really?
ReplyDeleteI'm sure they're good at it but copying Macho Man and Hogan is pretty much a dry well at this point. Sandow is good enough to be his own man and Curtis has proven all he needed was Mic time to develop himself.
ReplyDeleteWorked okay for Christian and Big Show.
ReplyDeleteBoth sound like entitled twits then. Though for Edge, it's slightly more understandable since that match was the bees knees.
ReplyDeleteJust take satisfaction that SOMETHING GOOD came out of you having to endure absolute horseshit. ;)
ReplyDeleteWhere do you get the impression that Neville is going back to NXT?
ReplyDeleteTJ: but I wish maffew would've come up with this for his botchamania videos:
ReplyDeletehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EVLLwrjPiuU
With Daniel Bryan potentially done -- or at least out for a while -- would it be a bad idea for WWE to quickly move Sami Zayn up the card to fill that everyman/underdog main-event (or hovering near main event) role that Bryan leaves behind?
ReplyDelete"In the entertainment business if something makes money a lot of it then it doesn't suck."
ReplyDeleteLast I checked we are not in the business, so why should I rate stuff based on popularity. I think TolstoIn the entertainment business if something makes money a lot of it then it doesn't suck.
Niche people are harder to satisfy than masses? No shit, when you really care about something you have higher standards for it. a combination of apathy and ignorance to superior art will do that.
Thus why I am not impressed by Nickelback, or bad WCW ppv's no matter how much money they made. Whoop-dee fucking doo lots of folks thought they were good. there is no logical connection between popularity and quality. High quality things may be more likely to gain popularity, but one does not nessesitate they other.
And since I've also wasted to much time on this.
ReplyDeleteThe point of the arts isn't just to make money. A lot of people genuinely care about their messege, or the purity of their craft, or beauty for beauty's sake. I get we have a social system which places capital above all else (it's impossible to value near anything more than money when you need money to sustain and support anything you value) but just accepting whoever has the makes the most money as best is awful.
I think in the entertainment business the entertainment aspect definitely should be factored in.
ReplyDeleteI mean you personally or any one person or group of people can think it sucked but that doesn't make it unsuccessful. Historic amounts of people watched these shows and paid a lot of money to do so and continued to do so for years. That to me not only says that the shows were successful but continued to be successful in order to maintain that level of sustainability for multiple years.
ReplyDeleteThe Nikki Bella "C'mon Brie" counter: 13 in a three-and-a-half minute match.
ReplyDeleteAnd while I disagreed with the ideal of turning Naomi heel, she has done a good job playing the character.
Professional Wrestling isn't an "art" atleast not WCW or the WWE. WCW was owned by Turner a souless corporation and ran by Eric Bischoff during its most susccessful bout who never looked at it as anything more than a business. Its most susccesful stars were Nash, Hall, Hogan, etc all men were are regarded as ruthless businessmen. There were people there that considered it an art sure but that doesn't make it one. The company that owned it never considered it an art, the man that ran it never considered it such and the men that made it successful and profitable never considered it such. You can regard it anyway you want but when everyone involved in something doesn't consider it art I would find it strange for anyone else to.
ReplyDeleteThis is all semantics. You can consider it art if you want, you can consider it unsuccessful or not good if you want. Hell you can even consider yourself right but. Turner and WCW were businesses that put on profitable business ventures multiple months for several years.
Even on an artisic level if you look at it as live theater how is it not successful that men were able to go out there and talk people into buying these pay per views for years on end. No one called and asked for their money back because Hogan/Piper wasn't *****, no one trashed the ring when Piper won, hell nobody even vocally booed. So again you can consider it what you but it made money, it gained historic amounts of viewers, and it told a story the overwhelming majority were happy with. I can't fathom a world were thats not an overhwelming success.
But how do you define entertainment. Piper/Hogan had a half a million people in North America alone purchase a pay per view one of the largest tradional pay per view audiences in history and easily the largest pay per view audience in that companies history. It sold out the arena, it made people tune into television every week at historic rates to see what they would do next. They told the story on pay per view and even more people tuned into the television show in the following weeks to see where the story was headed next. If thats not success in entertainment I have no idea what is.
ReplyDeleteI don't give a damn how much money they made, they were still dogshit shows.
ReplyDeleteEh, Barrett's so-so.
ReplyDeleteBig Show? He was jobbing left and right.
ReplyDeleteStill in high level feuds two decades later, and I was talking about THE GIANT!!! Considering that his name change to The Big Show wasn't exactly a character transformation.
ReplyDeleteMatch quality was the drizzling shits. That is how they sucked as they were a terrible chore to sit through.
ReplyDeleteImpossible to really define entertainment because it varies from person to person. What entertains me may not entertain you.
ReplyDeleteI was entertained by Undertaker/HHH at WrestleMania 28. Others thought it was dogshit.
As a fan how something performs business wise really has no bearing on how entertaining it is.
WrestleMania 29 is one of the highest grossing WWE events but I think it's a pretty crappy show.
the picture of Virgil sitting alone at an autograph table has been floating around the net for years... still hilarious
ReplyDeleteI'd just like to meet Arn Anderson and Heenan
Edge sucked... sat on the apron while Mysterio tore the house down with Benoit and Angel and rode out his career on it
ReplyDeleteRude/Steamboat 30 minute Iron Man was what everyone was trying to be
ReplyDeletethere is a Bret/Owen 60 minute iron man fan cam from a house show that is pretty awesome though, even the Bret/Flair fan cam one rocked
should read the books of the old school guys, WM was a huge deal from the start... was the biggest payday of the year, the show everyone wanted to be on, only time of the year the company had a short vacation after during the early ones, and the only time the entire roster met up at once
ReplyDeletewith the exception of 1988's Midnight Rider disaster (cutting TBA tv ratings by 40% in two or three weeks) fans don't disappear overnight
ReplyDeletebut by Starrcade 2000 they drew about 2000 fans and a few months later were out of business
You typed Big Show. The Giant is acceptable, but not Big Show.
ReplyDeleteC'Mon Brie!
ReplyDeleteNow imagine what a threesome with the Bellas would be like...
I was talking about the prior neck injury (you probably knew that though).
ReplyDeleteWatch RAW last night? Doesn't seem too healthy does he?
We're fans. Is the point of you watching wrestling to make the company money or to be entertained?
ReplyDeletehot and annoying ?
ReplyDeleteStarrcade was Dusty's brainchild, and very associated with him.
ReplyDeleteThere have been a lot of these sort of questions lately:
ReplyDeleteDid Luger's run in the WWF fail because...?
Did all the Starrcades from 1994-2000 suck because...?
But the original question is itself flawed.
Yeah but your opinions always go against the grain. Not every comment has to be a disagreement. It's fatiguing to read.
ReplyDeleteSpeaking of awful ideas...World War 3. Let's have a 3 ring battle royal when most people have TVs in the 30" or smaller range.
ReplyDeleteShawn and Bret. Bret and Shawn. It's like Joe Gomez doesn't even count.
ReplyDeleteIf the reader actually bothered to watch the Starrcades, he'd find that '95 is really cool; '96 has a great undercard; '97's main event is epic and flawed; and 2000 has the ladder match and a fun bunkhouse match. But, I know, blahblahBecauseWCW, DX tank, etc.
ReplyDeleteI'd say Starrcade was shit well before 94 honestly. 90 had the payoff to the horrifyingly stupid Black Scorpion angle, 91-92 had boring gimmick tournaments and 93 was a shit show until Flair and Vader saved it.
ReplyDeleteHBK/Perfect in 93 was pretty bad considering the participants.
ReplyDeleteHalloween Havoc seemed like a bigger show than Starrcade for a while. Bash at the Beach became the WCW's Summerslam. I think Superbrawl was really the big deal and most of those shows had better main events and undercards than Starrcade.
ReplyDeleteI love the idea of Edge or Jericho lurking, reading and than blowing up about match ratings,
ReplyDeleteSecond time Bryan has dropped a title without losing it. He really was trained by HBK.
ReplyDeleteJust finished fast forwarding through Raw. Shocked that the show ended with Dean Ambrose standing triumphant in the ring, while Cole heralded the amazing NXT match between Sami Zayn and Kevin Owens. The end of Raw was the very definition of Bizarro World.
ReplyDeleteIn spite of Scott being a non-religious person (technically, so am I - Christ isn't a religion), I'm always touched to hear how God drew him to Himself by using Ted Diabise as His vessel. Christ may have been rejected, but I am respectfully happy that similar to Dr. Stanley to Livingson - that Scott was respectfully touched by the humility and meekness from Diabise.
ReplyDeleteI did meet Bret Hart in 2009 briefly - and Hulk Hogan in 2007. I wasn't a Christian in 2007 and Hogan was my idol - the man. I was in awe at the sight of him. I called him the "--- of wrestling" and he kind of chuckled. I think he's just a old school carny that means no harm - but he's always working you and when he meets fans - he's almost level headed. Now Bubba, on the other hand, boasted about what a great wrestler he was. This was when Bubba and Hogan were still buddies. And Bubba had his fans in that match in Memphis. Every WWF and TNA reject was at that Memphis show.
ReplyDeleteNow Bret was different. It was a book signing in November 2009. Still wasn't saved, hanging out with some Atheist buddies of mine. Bret was low key, but polite. Amazed I had the Canadian version of the book, which I later lost - and thanked me from coming.
I also met Slick in 2007. Really low key. Almost think he revived the act for money. He seemed put off when I told him how funny he was at WrestleMania. Or maybe he was humble. I don't kbow.
Saw Jimmy Valient without a beard in 2007 - didn't meet him because I had no clue it was him. Same Memphis event.
I know as far back as Superbrawl III in 93, they were billing it as the biggest event of the year. That was the very end of the Watts era but Bischoff was there albeit with little to no power. Not sure if demoting Starrcade was the intention going back to the 1st Superbrawl since it had a strange main event (to non Japanese fans).
ReplyDeleteI really don't understand. People here complained that the new WWE Network programming didn't have enough wrestling. Then they got the King of the Ring special and now the Elimination Chamber special. And what do they do? Complain about them.
ReplyDeleteThen again, this wouldn't be smark central if it wasn't full of constant complaints.
96 is a great show. Yeah, Hogan/Piper sucked, but the heat was off the charts. 97 was a letdown due to bad booking. 98 is god awful after the first 2 matches. 2000 was about the best show they could have gotten with the roster at that point.
ReplyDeleteThey were high grossing because the lead up was good so people bought them. The shows themselves weren't that good.
ReplyDeleteDuring Wrestlemania 21 weekend, we saw William Regal in our movie theater with his son. We were watching Sin City. He saw my Eddie Guerrero shirt as we walked in and we exchanged nods, knowingly. It was a moment that I'm sure he remembers to this day.
ReplyDeleteThat's how you do fan interaction. Dignified and respectful. Well done.
ReplyDeleteIt makes me think less of Edge and more of Jericho.
ReplyDeleteI think they're paying homage to Pitbull 1, he'll be back in 2 months.
ReplyDeleteWhy are they a souless corp?
ReplyDeleteI'd take Zayn or Neville. Neville isn't an everyman but he could still fill the role of guy whose matches I expect to be awesome every single time.
ReplyDeleteNeville seems pretty full-time main roster at this point.
ReplyDeleteFor the benefit of our younger readers.
ReplyDeleteI was interviewed by Byron Saxton back in like 2006 for a short local news piece. He came to my house and recognized my Eddie guerrero shirt and talked for a few minutes about him ring announcing on the indies. Seeing him interview top guys now is a strange feeling.
ReplyDelete¯\_(ツ)_/¯
ReplyDeleteI met Ric Flair at the airport in Toronto after WrestleMania X-8. He was quiet, but cool. He took a picture with me and signed my friend's ticket. Most other encounters were at official signings so it's probably not the best representation of what they're like, but I do remember Edge in particular being very kind.
ReplyDeleteI think it was Scott (and I'm sure many others) who simply suggested just saying "your first month is free." This is pretty standard in virtually any subscription based program and the perception is a lot less negative than already doing, what, like 3 free months in 2015 alone?
ReplyDeleteThe numbers also say that the WWF started winning just a few months after Starrcade. WCW wasn't killed by Sting vs. Hogan, but it took off a limb or two. You can't build up to one show and one match for over a year and then botch it that badly, then say "oh yeah if you want to see the real result, buy this other show two months from now." It doesn't work.
ReplyDeleteThat was the highest viewed review on my site this weekend. People seem to enjoy seeing me suffer.
ReplyDeleteI've met a metric ton of wrestlers at indie shows. Daniel Bryan is one of the nicest people on Earth. Just a really super nice guy and always a pleasure to speak to.
ReplyDeleteI like to meet Mike Jones - but he probably wants $100.00 for autographs.
ReplyDeleteBobby is doing quite well for someone who has fought cancer for years. His voice is mostly gone due to the surgeries - but he can still talk. I saw a video of him walking around in 2014 - he still has it. I do know he cut a promo in 2008 where he melted down for a website and in 2009 - his jaw was gone. It's a blessing he is still here. Hope i get a chance to meet him someday.
ReplyDeleteId just deal with Nikki and tell Brie to go eat.
ReplyDeleteThe Edge deal was really weird because we had been chatting off and on for a while that year and then he blew up after I gave the Eddie Guerrero match ****1/2 instead of ***** and he never talked to me again.
ReplyDeleteI love 89, and don't mind most of 92. But I can't really argue. Nowhere near blow-away shows. 89 had the potential but just did not deliver.
ReplyDeleteHave you ever told your story of how you came to the Lord here?
ReplyDeleteIt would be a good idea if he wasn't injured too. He never needed development, and he's been down there for 2 years. I truly think HHH wants to keep him (and Balor and Owens) for himself.
ReplyDeleteRKO?
ReplyDelete