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Hey Scott longitme reader, occasional blog poster, and first time emailer. I was wondering with the tons of rumors, people doing their fantasy booking(all I've seen great ideas in their own right) and "biggest match ever" hype, are we all getting set up for a HUGE letdown? I think the Cena/Rock match with be a good one but something tells me it will end with an Attitude Adjustment and a clean win for Cena followed by a passing of the torch moment(pretentious in my mind)with a Rock handshake. All well and good but not for Mania or the crazy potential ways this story can go....or maybe I really AM that jaded. Thoughts?

 Oh, I think they're cooking something up here.  Low ratings = desperation = awesome hotshot angles, so there's gonna be some giant attempt to boost RAW the next night, and that means we all win, at least temporarily.  Plus they have to set up next year's WM, so no, I don't think you're setting yourself up for disappointment at all.

Comments

  1. They're not "desparate".  Yes they want their ratings to be higher but their current business model is making them more than enough money at the moment.

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  2. My expectations are way too high for WM, especially with all the Broctista rumors hitting the net. 

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  3. When the match was first signed a year ago, I have to imagine that Vince basically thought to himself "well, we'll just have Cena win clean and the Rock will shake his hand afterwards, THAT'LL make the older fans like him!" With Punk's completely unexpected rise to the top and Sheamus gathering momentum, and the Cena/Rock feud seemingly and supposedly growing more personal and bitter than anyone was expecting (not to mention that it sounds like Rock is willing to come back for another match or two), I think Vince must realize now that there's more that can be done with the program than simply treating Rock as a one-time return just to put Cena over.

    I've said it before, but I think the best thing for business would be for Rock to win, for a number of reasons: First of all, Cena overcoming the odds is just more of the same, and is not going to suddenly make his detractors feel differently about him. Secondly, Cena's popularity won't be affected by the loss, he'll still generate millions in t-shirt sales and receive a ton of Make-a-Wish requests. Lastly, and maybe most importantly, it would give the company a good excuse to move Cena down a rung, allowing somebody else a chance to be on top (Punk or Sheamus being the likely candidates); if it doesn't work, hey, they could always bring Cena back up, but it's been a one-man show for far too long, making it a two- or three-man show can only be a positive for business at this point, especially since Cena, Punk, and Sheamus would all seemingly cater to different tastes and demographics. Plus, really, would it be so bad if Cena showed a little vulnerability? Make him question himself for a bit. He doesn't even have to turn heel, having a defeated Cena questioning his abilities could actually cause an INCREASE in merchandise sales, as his fans rally around him and try to pick his spirits back up.

    I've mentioned this before, and maybe I'm the only person who thinks this would be a good idea, but I certainly think it should be played out this way: Rock wins at "WrestleMania". Cena petitions for a rematch, but is interrupted by Punk, who says that Cena let WWE down, let down "the boys in the back" that Cena was supposedly fighting for, and that if anybody should get to face Rock, it's him [Punk]. Cena/Punk feud for a bit, with the winner getting to face Rock at "Summerslam". Punk beats Cena, and then goes on and beats Rock. Boom, they've now given Punk the rub of beating two of the biggest names in the history of the business, as well as the rub of being able to do what Cena couldn't.

    We've all said before and agreed that Vince needs to take a chance and strap a rocket to somebody else; well, there's your rocket. If it doesn't work, move Cena back up, have him get his win back from Rock at "WM29", fine, but at least try to find somebody new to add to the main-event scene to break-up the monotony of the last seven years.

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  4. I read an interview with Cena where he comes off sounding like a sick combination of both Hulk Hogan and Bret Hart. Hogan in the sense that he justified his character's Superman qualities by saying "well, I lost to the Miz last year!" (doesn't even mention losing two PPVs in a row to Punk), and Bret in the sense that he discusses turning heel and what it would do to his fans because his character has this set of ideals that he will never falter from. Kind of hilarious actually, and a little sad that he seems to be falling into the same mindset that Bret and Hogan did.

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  5. Who cares.. Richards & Elgin just went 5 and a quarter..

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  6. I like never, ever buy WWE PPVs. I'm buying Wrestlemania because I'm a HUGE Rock mark and would pay to see him wrestle Hornswaggle. I KNOW I'm going to be letdown with my purchase because I can't see the WWE doing anything beyond the scenario mentioned above and it really bums me out. But I'm paying my money like a sucker anyway.

    BTW - I bought Survivor Series, too, and was bummed by how bland that was, yet here I am, buying it again.

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  7. With only 5 and a quarter people watching them.

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  8. I feel ya, dude. From the quality match list to all the rumors, this feels like the biggest WM ever.

    Of course, last year felt huge too...and it sucked hardcore. 8 (

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  9.  This. He's turning into Bret Hart.

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  10. Personally I'm glad for it. You can't depend on football players or baseball players to be decent people (and nor should you really, they're the same jocks everyone hated in high school and just want to be rich) but Cena actively WANTS to be a role model (and rich).

    It's nice to have a guy my kid can love and I can be pretty sure he won't eventually beat his wife, die from drug overdose, or kill his own family.

    Can you imagine? Having a childhood hero that didn't become an enormous piece of shit like Hogan/Warrior/Flair? Would've been sweet!

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  11. "More than enough money" is not how you run a multi-million dollar company.  An NWO type group led by a heel Cena is a license to more money than anything they're doing right now.  You don't want that?

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  12. Lastly, and maybe most importantly, it would give the company a good
    excuse to move Cena down a rung, allowing somebody else a chance to be
    on top

    I'm hoping that horrible buyrate for the Chamber, with Cena-Kane featured prominently on top, may have opened some eyes at WWE HQ. 

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  13. I can't totally fault Cena in this case since, while he's thinking about his character, I think he's also viewing it through the prism of his charity work.  It's obvious that Cena considers his Make-a-Wish duties to be the achievement of his life (with good cause, as he has gone above and beyond), and a heel turn would not only prevent him from continuing those duties, but it would also leave heartbroken all those kids who are legitimately huge Cena fans and consider him to be a hero.  It was one thing when Hogan turned in 1996 since he had grown completely stale by that point, and Hart had that brilliant only-in-America heel turn that allowed him to both stay true to his character while completely freshening it up at the same time. 

    We 16-and-older males may find Cena stale as hell, but he's still far and away #1 in the eyes of WWE's younger fans.  Really, since the company only fully shifted to PG around 2008-9, those younger fans may have only three years or less of exposure to Cena, so he's still fresh to them.

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  14. Not only that Mar Solo, he's still fucking talking about the Rock leaving.  I mean, seriously dude, why not just tweet this from now one:  Rock will leave, waaaaah, I'm the company man, waaaaah.

    What a bitch.

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  15.  I disagree that Cena can't continue to do Make-A-Wish while playing a heel on TV.  Kayfabe died a long time ago.

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  16. I thought for sure he was talking about golf until I googled.

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  17.  Hogan was Cena for my generation.  Once you grow up though, and some of these guys private persona gets exposed, you have perspective at that point to realize that they were just playing a TV character.  It's not earth shattering.  Say in 10 years, Cena turns out to be something akin to Hogan, do you think a 10 year old today (20 years then) would be that upset?  I would say no, or at least, it didn't matter to me...check my user name, lol.

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  18. I think that there have been many payoffs to a number of angles since Wrestlemania 21, but they always feel bastardized. The essence of what CM Punk is saying when he calls Vince a "Millionaire Who Should Be a Billionaire". If they can stray away from this in the coming months, I'm sure the Wrestlemania event itself, as well as its fallout, will be worth watching.

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  19. I think all that proves is that fans aren't interested in watching Cena fight a lousy wrestler whose character is staler than year-old bread. I mean I have no problem with Kane in the Midgard putting over up-and-comers, but that main event push was beyond ridiculous.

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  20. I'm sure the amount of requests that he receives (far and away the most ever for a Wrestler, maybe all time) would be affected. Kayfabe is not dead to kids who don't have much hope.

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  21. Haha, good point. I'm not saying it would crush him or anything but it never feels at all sad that most of the people you grew up watching are either dead or completely exposed as terrible humans?


    I can understand why older people are bored as fuck with Cena (I'm bored as fuck with Cena) but I can also completely understand why the guy isn't at all interesting in turning heel. He LIKES being a role model.


    The worst part about getting older is no longer being in the most sought-after demographic. Vince has zero reason to market to us. We're old. They have every reason to try to get my kid addicted for the next 15 years, just like Hogan (or Flair or whoever) got us.

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  22. How does turning heel stop him from doing Make A Wish duties? I'm sure plenty of the current heels do Make A Wish duties.

    And wrestling is fake, so I'm sure those kids will get over it.

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  23. Kayfabe's not dead to a six year old.

    Particularly a six year old that's been pretty focused on fighting, say, lukemia, not visiting 411 lol

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  24. I don't know if you meant to type "midgard", or if it was just a typo, but "midguard" would be a brilliant term for upper-card guys like Kane and Show - they're basically the "gatekeepers" when it comes to moving from the mid-card to the main-event, and vice-verse.

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  25. Those kids will get over it?

    Sure, hopefully...unless they die of course...

    To a six year old the whole fucking world is kayfabe.

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  26. To be fair, other than maybe Trips/Taker, last year's card was pretty lackluster. Not so, this year.

    I'm not disagreeing that last year's event sucked (personally, I thought it was the worst WM ever), but even the lead-up to last year's event sucked. This year, the event could be awful, but they have a hell of a line-up to look forward to.

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  27. Alright, good points ChinWins and Magnum, no doubt a youngster would be hurt.  I do say this, and I know it's cold, but if turning heel Cena could make a difference in the millions of dollars, does it matter if he does less Make-A-Wish?  I know this is insensitive and heartless to take away Cena, the hero, from these kids and it should be a factor in the decision, just not the sole factor.  Ultimately, their #1 responsability is to the investors and using Hogan's turn as my basis, I just think heel Cena with a possible scenario of Brock and Batista as his cohorts, could be the biggest money angle since the nWo.

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  28. No, I meant "midcard," stupid iPad autocorrect. Weirdly earlier it tried to autocorrect something else to "Orton" in a text earlier. I think it... learns, or something.

    I want nachos.

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  29. There's more than just the idea of a Cena heel-turn, though; it's about the execution of said idea.

    How many potentially great heel-turns (or heel runs) have been ruined because they book the heel like a loser joke? Just look at Cena being able to beat Miz and Truth single-handedly. Hell, just look at Cena being able to beat-up the seven-member "Nexus" single-handedly!

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  30. Money trumps all, of course.

    To me, and this is based on facts that I just made up, what made Hogan turning work was the kids that had watched him had grown up. I don't think the Cenation or whatever has grown up yet.

    Hogan was the superhero face for a decade before he turned, Cena's only really been doing it half as long.

    It also worked because it seemed shootish and the guys "invading" really
    did just come from the competition. There were lots of factors that
    made Hogan's turn epic, not the least of which being that HE WANTED TO.
    He was committed to doing everything he could to killing the role model character. Cena appears to have no desire to that.

    Again, if they think they can make more money they should do it, even if it leaves Make-A-Wish wanting.


    I think Vince keeps him face because it's making him great money already, he's a great safe face for a company always mired in bad PR, and it keeps the real guy, John Cena himself, a happy employee.

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  31.  For a seedy industry like wrestling, I think having someone who is always making the company look good outside the ring is paramount to them.  Cena has been on top for nearly a decade now and he's never been busted for drugs (recreational or PED), never been hit with a DUI, never gotten arrested, hell never had the cops called on him.  An angle involving a heel Cena may make more money for the company overall, but you lose a lot of goodwill he creates outside the ring because even in the media, kayfabe is still kinda alive.

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  32. Nice! But who's that quarter person? 8 )

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  33. I honestly don't think Cena HAS to become a heel...but his character NEEDS tweaking. I almost feel embarrassed for him when I watch wrestling. He's getting criticized for the smug smirks and talking to the camera but was doing it even during his feud with CM Punk, where Punk basically tore him down completely.

    I think John Cena has the it-factor but he hasn't shown any seriousness or real edge since his feud with...pardon the pun...Edge.

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  34. I finally caught Moneyball last night and it made me think about some parallels between McMahon and Brad Pitt's Billy Beane character. In the end of that movie, even though Beane had his success with the A's based on following stats and not buying into the romanticism of the game, he turns down a position with the Red Sox because it means something to him to win it with a last place team, with no budget. To him, part of the love of baseball is the story, the drama, the thing that shakes up the status quo. I wonder if in the last year or so Vince has kind of had that moment. He knows he'll still make a safe amount of money by doing things the easy way with his proven commodities. To a degree, he still does that to get by in the lean times. But I get the feeling Vince loves wrestling in that way where he'll roll the dice on a big storyline if he knows it'll be really great when push comes to shove. Even as far as yesterday the cynic in me thought that maybe we'd just get the handshake and the return to Super Cena, but I'm starting to think maybe something bigger might be happening.

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  35.  I thought Beane stayed in Oakland because he didn't want to be away from his daughter?  Pretty sure that was the reason.

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  36. That might have been the reason back in 2002, but he still gets offers every year. 

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  37. Batista has tweeted he is Miami.

    I wish everyone on this blog would stop talking about Cena turning heel. 1) It's not happening. 2) If he turns heel, all you people would cheer for him....so you want him to turn FACE. All anyone on this blog is saying when they say "Turn Cena heel" is "I want to cheer for Cena."

    Personally....I like booing him.

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  38. Exactly - the entire audience was tired of Hogan's face run about two years before he turned heel. Cena, on the other hand, is still the #1 guy in the company, and completely satisfies the taste of roughly half the audience.

    In another few years, when EVERYBODY is sick of Cena (as opposed to half the audience being sick of him), his t-shirts aren't selling nearly as well, and more Make-a-Wish kids are requesting other stars (Punk, Sheamus, Kofi, etc.) instead of him, then we'll see the big heel turn.

    I totally understand where Cena feels a huge obligation to be a role-model to his legion of fans, but once that legion grows up and/or finds somebody else that they like more, then he'll no longer have to feel obligated.

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  39. The only reason I want to see them him turn heel is because of the potential match ups. Cena against guys like Kingston, Ryder, Mysterio, Bourne, and even a face Orton are all fresh match ups that haven't been beaten into the ground. I could care less who other people boo or cheer for.

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  40. When Benoit killed his family, I remember the uproar it caused amongst hardcore fans; the guy that many of us thought of as embodying all that was supposed to be good about pro-wrestling had proven to be the exact opposite. Same with Steve Austin beating his wife, or Rey Mysterio loading himself up with steroids and pain-killers.

    I can honestly say that, should Cena ever get busted for drugs, or beating his wife, or anything else along those lines, I will absolutely be shocked and saddened. He is the one pro-wrestler that I honestly believe is as clean-cut as he is portrayed as being.

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  41.  Maybe he just likes working in Oakland and likes the people he works with.  Not everyone is driven by a shit load of money, I'm guessing he's happy there.

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  42. There are always going to be small kids around though and if you could strike while (if) Brock and Batista are around and make a shit ton of money, you do it.  He can always go back to Super Cena for the kids in a year.

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  43. You guys are pretty cute, with your whole "I wasn't lucky enough to witness this year's MOTY" schtick, but sadly I'm sure you guys needed that $20 way more than I did. Had NO problem sending it ROH/GFL's way..

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  44. I'm way more excited about this year's wrestle mania than I was about last year's. I even ordered the show on Friday to be sure I didn't have any problems. Plus, I'm not usually so happy about forking over $65 for a wrestling ppv.

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  45. . With Hunter getting the full reigns so to speak after Mania 28 the next few shows will be a good indication on what we can expect. I hadn't heard that? What's the story?

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  46. I'm an 18-35 year old white male with a college degree and a steady job, Vince should be catering to me!  

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  47. The product doesn't need to be great for WrestleMania to be great. RAW and SD were shit coming into WMXIX (RAW was in the full swing of The Triple H Show while SD had effectively disbanded the SD Six aka the only consistently good thing about the show) and we got a top-3 WM card because that card was STACKED at the top of the card and it delivered. 

    WWE has some issues in the present and down the road, but for where we stand on April 1st, we have a legit main event "dream match", an era-defining HIAC match with legends ready to put a capper on their career (hell, a HIAC match that means something), and a possible Steamboat/Savage-type match with Punk and Jericho. This feels can't-miss no matter what misgivings we have about the WWE.

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  48. Good point, though there's more to being a role-model than not doing drugs, there's also attitude and work-ethic.

    I could be completely wrong, but I get the feeling that if Punk were dropped back down the card anytime soon, he would quit, and badmouth everyone on his way out. Cena, on the other hand, would probably continue giving his all every day, and still be a model employee.

    Again, I could be wrong, but Cena just seems like a genuinely nicer person than the abrasive Punk.

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  49. I'd rather fight leukemia than visit 411.

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  50. The only way they know how to cater to your demographic is with naked girls and beer. That would certainly be more interesting for you and me but now not only have they lost national advertisers but they've lost 3 guaranteed tickets (me and both kids) to your 1.

    They cater to everyone over 25 by trying to give them something nostalgic they can watch with their kids.

    I don't know if it's the greatest marketing strategy ever but it's certainly not the worst.

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  51. Just cause Punk says he's completely drug free doesn't mean it's true. He said he has no respect for any man who beats women... unless he can make a million dollar payday off him. He says he respects and supports the LGBT community but calls a fan a homo to insult him (and I'm guessing that wasn't the first time he used that insult).

    I like Punk as a performer but he strikes me as a guy who reviles in being a prick, then gleefully plays it up as being too 'real' and 'honest' for some people. I'd rather hang out with Rey Mysterio, I couldn't care less about steroids.

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  52. Re: Cena not wanting to turn heel, I'm wondering how many people defending the guy have blasted Bret Hart in the past for his comments about his place in Canada. You think there aren't sick kids in Canada? Doesn't matter, Bret's deluded and thinks wrestling is real, the guy's a mark for himself. But Cena is a hero and it would be cruel to turn him heel. He couldn't possibly be worried how a heel turn could affect his bottom line and his place as the top dog in the company.

    This is why Cena infuriates me, he has the talent and charisma to pull off a character change (since some people refuse to call it a heel turn) but refuses cause he's a hero to so many kids? Had Hogan used the same line he'd have been crucified as out of touch with reality and selfish. And that's what Cena is: selfish. Guess what'll happen to all those kids John (even the sick ones)? They'll move on and find a new hero! Maybe the guy they program as the new face of the company (Punk? Sheamus?).

    Cena's acting like if he turns heel there will be NO hero for the children, when there's just going to be a DIFFERENT one. And he (and his ego/bank account) can't stand for that.

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  53. You could have used the same argument against turning Hogan, but nobody was dumb enough to suggest that.

    Cena is STALE. You would cheer the guy no matter what kind of new character he comes up with? Even a corporate sell out? Even a paranoid egomaniac? Why does a heel turn automatically mean he goes back to 2003 Cena?

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  54. It can't be both? He can't enjoy his work AND make tons of money doing it? That's impossible?

    The guy does more charity work than Jesus and you're calling him selfish? He doesn't have to do those things, he'd still be the super face.

    There's no one they can replace him with who is as guaranteed to never get into trouble. Sheamus seems like a good guy but is a long-term unknown and Punk as the corporate face is hilarious, I love Punk but he's always one tweet away from some kind of serious backlash. That's no good for your "face of the company".

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  55. Has to be the people, that stadium is the shittiest of shitty shit stadiums there ever was. Only one section open on the second and third levels, the rest was covered in tarp. ALL the concession stands were closed on the second and third levels. I have pictures of me and my brother standing in what looks like a completely empty stadium when it's actually during a Saturday afternoon game. Parking cost more than the tickets ($17 parking and $11 tickets). The place was so fucking horrible that even the bar TV's were out of ratio so you could never see the score. Never, ever ever go to Oakland. The horror...

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  56. So were Hogan and WCW a bunch of miserable assholes for the nWo storyline? Cause contrary to revisionist history, there were still a lot of kids/people who loved Hogan. Why does a sick child in 2012 matter when one in 1996 didn't?

    It matters cause you saw a video in 2012 with sappy music. Those kids will be fine (or they won't, it has nothing to do with John Cena), they'll find a new hero in whoever stands up and takes Cena's place as #1 face.

    I feel like Charles Barkley over here. Those kids have REAL role models and heros in the form of their parents and loved ones. It's not up to John Cena to be a surrogate parent to a kid whose own parents apparently let the tv raise him/her.

    Don't worry, if Cena turns heel I'll make sure WWE produces a montage of Sheamus, Punk, and Orton visiting sick kids and putting a smile on their faces. That should help you sleep at night.

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  57. Maybe HHH uses his political muscle to bring in every guy from the past that has had an issue with Undertaker, and the combined forces of Evolution, Legacy, DX, and the nWo (does anyone know for sure that Hogan is not in Miami?) will be enough to keep Taker down for the count, Royal Rumble 1994 style?

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  58. I'd just like to say that he's said he believes in the weakness of humans and has said that everybody has a chance to redeem themselves.  He has a problem with unrepentant  wife-beaters.

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  59. When I heard Midgard I was thinking of Kane as a Jotun, IMO.

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  60. Could you imagine having a conversation with 2004 You and telling him (You) that the #1 babyface in the company only has the support of roughly half the audience, and that's ok?!?

    And I'm tired of people claiming that Hogan was different cause the entire audience had turned on him. No they hadn't! The difference is that WCW refused to acknowledge the negative reaction to their top star, while WWE has embraced it. If Hogan was so hated why did he get a face pop when he came out at BatB and why did the crowd pelt the ring with garbage once he turned?

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  61. You're marking out. Hogan made the call to become a heel, he wanted to do it. John Cena doesn't. Why should he do it for you if he doesn't want to? What does he owe you exactly?

    I saw a video? What does that even mean? I have a kid that loves the guy. He's in their demo, not you. You'd save yourself alot of anger if you remembered that.

    You never looked up to someone outside of your own house? Tragic. I always wanted to be Nolan Ryan.

    What would help you sleep at night? If a guy that genuinely enjoys working with Make-A-Wish gave it up so you could see him do battle raps four minutes a week?

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  62. It's funny, because he'd have a case for putting Punk over. He was given outs, but he did lose twice, cleaner than he usually loses, and Punk was made to look like his equal in both matches.

    Miz, he has ABSOLUTELY no case and it bugs me when people act like Cena put Miz over. No. Miz won solely because the Rock interfered. Cena LOST to Miz, he didn't put Miz over. And what happened the next month? Miz lost the title to Cena in a triple threat. And the PPV after that? Miz and Riley double teamed Cena for TWENTY MINUTES with weapons and then Cena made them look like the jobbiest jobbers who ever jobbed by completely noselling that huge beating, chasing Miz around the arena, making him tap, then celebrating like he just beat Curt Hawkins in a one minute squash.

    I think part of it is how he's booked, I'm not entirely blaming Cena here although it wouldn't kill the guy to sell like he'd been in a match when it's over. But be honest. When people complain about Cena not putting people over, they aren't talking about what happened with Miz, or how he lost the title to Del Rio because "he got locked out of the cage and Punk got pinned".

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  63. Punk is great but the guy is always one tweet away from offending...whoever. The National Organization For Not Calling People Retarded, or something. 

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  64. So, should WWE just go to everyone in the company then and say "Hey, would you like to be a face or a heel?" and book them all that way? Forget what's good for business?

    And I've seen heels do Make a Wish. Why do you think a heel turn would mean he doesn't do it anymore?

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  65. Honestly, I don't think it matters anyway. There's this weird little thought process here that doesn't stand up to scrutiny. If a Make a Wish child has a dream to meet John Cena, does anyone honestly believe John Cena the heel wouldn't do it? Maybe it doesn't get played up on TV like it does now but I'm pretty much a million percent sure he still would. More likely, John Cena would turn heel and the Make a Wish kids would FIND SOMEONE ELSE TO BE THEIR HERO. This is being made out to be a line of dying children unable to meet their hero. If Cena's a bad guy, they cheer for someone else and want to meet Orton or Punk instead. Or they want to meet heel Cena anyway and Cena meets them. I understand the point of "some of these kids are so young they don't understand it's kayfabe", but these kids are going through some truly nasty and awful stuff...I'm sure if most of them were sat down by their parents and told "Listen, wrestling is a fictional TV show, these guys aren't really bad and aren't really hurting each other", they'd understand.

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  66. I'd love for Cena to turn heel because I think the company badly needs a shakeup like that. Plus I'd love to see Punk being given a serious chance to run as THE #1 guy (or at least, #1a with Orton) as opposed to "That guy after Cena in the pecking order". I also think Cena has excellent heel mannerisms in a match when he busts them out...see MitB or One Night Stand.

    That said, I also agree with you. If they're not going to turn him, and I doubt they will, he needs a tweak. He needs to be more serious. It doesnt mean the jokes need to completely go...I thought Cena on Raw this past week did a good job. He still joked around a bit but he was clearly taking Rock very seriously and laid out his case. On the other hand, a few weeks ago Rock was trying to cut an intense promo and Cena sat there smirking the entire time. A change at the very least would be nice.

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  67. It would be so funny/sad to see Rock tapping out to Cena's shitty STF. 

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  68. YES. I'm always surprised when people look at me like I'm an idiot when I try to explain why I think ROCK winning is better for business than Cena. Cena not only doesn't need the win, I actually think a win for Cena could actively hurt the company. He NEEDS to be more vulnerable. He already, right now, before the match with Rock, is the far and away #1 guy in the company and everyone else is his inferior. When was the last time he lost clean, at all? Top faces rarely do and that's fine, but he NEVER loses clean. Punk was the closest. And oftentimes it's much more than "quick distraction" or "foot under the ropes", usually it's "tons of outside interference and weapons, and then the second the refs hand hits 3 Cena attacks his opponent so he stands on top". That's how it is NOW. Put him over Rock and that just makes it worse.

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  69. Absolutely true. But do you think, if they turned Cena heel, he'd just be a Miz type loser joke? I can't possibly imagine that. I feel very confident that if Cena were to turn heel, he would be a dominant heel opposed by the underdog faces. And I'd be totally fine with that.

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  70. Why would a heel turn would be good for business? Because you'd like it?

    Are you going to buy a Cena shirt and Cena armband and Cena fake belt and Cena hat if he turns heel? Because kids buy all those things due to him being a face.

    The kind of heel you guys want him to be couldn't do Make-A-Wish. You guys, the ones that don't buy his merchandise and won't in the future, would never accept anything less than a full on offensive battle rapper character.

    Every day that passes you become less and less their target demo.

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  71. I'm a Rock mark and a Cena hater and even I won't touch that.

    Coughsharpshootercough.

    Although at least Rock didn't win a much with it.

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  72. He can't be a heel and do charity work?

    Yes he's selfish and protective of his spot. Just like Hogan. And Bret. And Austin. He just justifies it with the charity work.

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  73. You keep forgetting that Cena not only wants to do it, but actually IS a role model, it's not an act.

    The guy has never gotten into trouble his entire life. He's a model employee, doesn't do drugs, never arrested, not much of a drinker, hardest worker in the promotion, etc.

    You only want him to turn heel so you can cheer for him. It's not your turn for a hero anymore.

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  74. Not if he's the heel you guys want him to be. And that's why he shouldn't do it. In order to keep doing the things he likes doing, he'd have to play a half-ass heel and then you guys would STILL be pissed.

    Hogan wanted to turn heel, this guy says over and over that he doesn't.

    He justifies his spot as being the squeaky-cleanest face in the history of the company by being totally squeaky-clean? That bastard! lol

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  75. Or past Streak victims....like, Edge suddenly hits the ring and spears Taker.  Then King Kong Bundy waddles in and splashes him.  Then Snuka (Tamina's father!) flies off the top to hit Taker with the Superfly Splash.

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  76. Exactly, who's there for him to face after the Rock? Mark Henry? Del Rio? The Miz? All been done to death. Might as well get some fresh match ups out of it. 

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  77. He can easily play the role of corporate sell out, not change a damn thing about his character (because his character is already an unlikable pandering tool), just have him kiss ass to guys like Vince and Johnny Ace. Basically a mix up of Austin in 2001 and Kurt Angle in 2000.

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  78. So...he could be a half-assed heel that the internet would still hate AND he could give up selling tons of merchandise to children. Yeah, I don't see why the guy isn't rushing to do it either.

    He's not the hero the IWC needs but he's the hero the IWC deserves.

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  79. No, we want him to turn heel so we can a completely stale character off of our television.

    No top face ever got booed to the degree that Cena does, not even Shawn the Giant Killer in 1996. That's a problem. 

    Hardest worker in the promotion? Cena seems to be the only guy in the company that doesn't work Tuesdays.

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  80. You're not the demographic anymore, Cena's audience is. No one cares what the internet thinks because the internet is going to complain no matter what they do.

    Bret Hart got booed worse. Cena sells more merch than anyone. The only people booing him are the people mad that they don't get to cheer him, like you.

    Yes, hardest worker in the promotion. It's a fact. The guy is out promoting the product damn near every day. He didn't become the face of the entire brand because he was lazy.

    I'm sorry you're not the target audience anymore.

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  81. 1. Bret Hart was never booed like Cena when he was an actual babyface.

    2. You're honestly telling me you don't find the John Cena character to be stale? That he hasn't run out of fresh matchups on the heel side? That it wouldn't be a breath of fresh air to the product from a creative standpoint for him to change his character (which doesn't have to mean his rapper gimmick from 2003, Mr. Straw Man)? I'm not talking about what makes sense from a business standpoint (which is debateable since ppv buys and ratings stayed about the same during Cena's injuries and guys like Hardy and Punk have sold a lot of merch without the benefit of Cena's booking). Or what your kids want. Or what the damn IWC wants. I'm talking about what YOU as a fan of professional wrestling want to see. Cause if you honestly don't see any reason to change this guy up then we'll just have to agree to disagree.

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  82. I must've missed the public apology Austin issued about his woman beating. Cause I definitely saw one from Chris Brown. Punk doesn't know Brown, he has to take the guy at his word if he says he's sorry. The girl he beat has forgiven him, can't imagine her doing that unless he apologized to her personally. Is he buying the report that Brown made a joke about it while hitting on a girl? That'd be hypocritical since he (Punk) has publicly complained about internet rumours/reports that have no basis in fact.

    I'll be the first to admit that I'm harder on Punk than others cause to me he comes off as very self righteous and judgemental, while at the same time trying to convey the '2 cool 4 school' attitude that he doesn't give a shit what other people do (classic example being making fun of others' twitter habits, then getting an account and becoming the same 'look what I had for breakfast' and 'here's me at the gym' kinda guy he was mocking earlier).

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  83. Austin has made a serious effort to clean up his life and fix his problems.  Brown has continued to be an egotistical little twat that calls his beating of Rihanna a "mistake".  Austin never took off his shirt in the middle of an interview and stormed out cause they asked him about Debra.

    And while I'm not denying Punk is an asshole, or even hypocritical to a certain extent, I think think he's a generally moral person and that he's nowhere near the bad guy the anti-Punk marks make him out to be.

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  84.  I get your point and I agree with it for the most part, but I could live without ever hearing the 'target demo' line again :b

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  85. A-Train runs in to do...whatever it is that A-Train does.

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  86. That was part of it in the movie, and that was probably the main factor in real life. But I'm just talking about the overall theme of the movie. Like how Beane was all gung ho about going with science instead of the old baseball traditions, until he showed up at the park during the 20th game and blew their 11-0 lead, because he felt like he jinxed them. That's basically how I felt that movie was: he starts by trying to do things the old way, listening to scouts who talk about things like how good looking a kid his or how he carries himself. Then he starts building his team using sabermetrics, and goes to war with Art Howe and the old way of doing things. When he finally sees success with his method, he realizes that he's missing some of that old school romanticism and superstition that made him love baseball in the first place. In the end, he'd rather roll the dice on making his underdog story work than follow the money in Boston, even if it meant less of a chance of winning another season. He's still made his mark for changing the game, but he needs that human element to feel alive. It all hinged on that scene where Jonah Hill shows him the video of the fat guy who didn't realize he had just hit a homer: "How can you not be romantic about baseball?" 

    That kind of attitude is what I think Vince might be getting at, or at least where he should be. Pretty impressive work by Aaron Sorkin, considering I'd rather surrender a testicle than sit through an entire baseball game.

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  87. What kind of a bad guy do anti-Punk marks make him out to be? The most common criticisms I see of the guy is that he's a jerk and can be a hypocrite. Which you acknowledged to be true.

    I'm not going to act like I care about wrestlers' personal lives. I do, to a degree. I just care more that they're nice guys who don't act like assholes. I don't care if they drink, do drugs/steroids, or cheat on their wives cause I'm not naive enough to think I wouldn't do similar things if given that amount of money, fame, and loose women throwing themselves at me.

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  88. If such an organization existed (and there are different groups, like End the R-Word) and they were hiring watchdogs, pretty much my dream job would be to monitor CM Punk tweets for use of the R-word. Although I get the feeling I'd be a little torn between my fandom and my moral obligation.

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  89. You make some really good points, Jabber2, but I think there's one big difference between Cena wanting to be a role-model and many of the others that wanted to be role-models:

    As far as anybody can tell, John Cena, the person, really is as straight-laced as his character. Yes, Bret (for instance) wanted to be seen as a role-model, but it was totally hypocritical: his CHARACTER represented a set of ideals for children to look up to, but the real-life Bret did tons of drugs and cheated on his wife constantly. Now, granted, both men obviously would benefit financially from selling themselves as role-models, but I think the evidence shows that Cena, more than many others, also feels a personal responsibility to living up to the ideals he sets forth.

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  90. Aren't they moving to a new stadium soon?

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  91. Cena is NOT straight-laced as his character. One look at his pharmaceutically-enhanced physique will tell you that.

    And there were times in the past where he was interviewed and bragging about the girls he bangedo n the road.

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  92. While I agree that the product doesn't need to be great for WM to be great, I'd also add the caveat that the product (usually) has to be great for WM to do a great buy-rate.

    Maybe not this year, as Rock coming back is huge and completely independent of anything else the company is doing, but WM19, as great as it was, still did a pretty poor buy-rate.

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  93. Does Cena REALLY only have the support of half the audience, though? Yeah, half the audience may boo him, but they're still buying a ticket, and, many times, are buying a ticket specifically to boo him. Yes, there are some fans in the audience that legitimately don't like him and are buying tickets to see others, but there are also plenty of fans that are chanting "Cena Sucks" simply because it's fun to heckle and it's the cool thing to do, not because they really truly dislike him.

    The people who REALLY don't support him are the ones that AREN'T going to the shows, or watching the shows, or buying the PPVs or merchandise. In that way, I'd say that Cena is actually doing a better job of being the centerpiece of the promotion than Bret or Shawn during their big runs. Sure, ratings and buy-rates are down, but the company as a whole is certainly doing better than it was when either of those two were on top.

    Buying a ticket to boo somebody is different than not buying a ticket at all.

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  94. "You can't depend on football players or baseball players to be decent
    people (and nor should you really, they're the same jocks everyone hated
    in high school and just want to be rich)..."

    I've agreed with pretty much every one of your posts in this thread, but I think this statement is pretty narrow-minded. I'm sure there are some professional athletes that happen to be nice people, and as for being rich, is that really any different than a pro-wrestler wanting to be rich?

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  95. Oh, I agree, if Cena turned heel, he'd likely be booked as a super-dominant, Trips-in-2003 heel.

    I just meant that there's more to turning their misfortune around than simply saying "turn Cena heel". There's also "now what?".

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  96.  Forget freedom of speech and taking people out of context and all, you know, small technicalities....

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  97. It feels like everyone on here is having 2 seperate arguments and they're mixing them together (I've done it myself too). There's the business side of it and the strictly creative aspect.

    From a financial perspective I can understand fearing the heel turn for 1 reason: merch. The man sells a shit load, and he'd still sell a lot as a heel, but it'd definitely go down (unless they get a cool logo/design ala nWo or Austin 3:16). I don't think it'll crash ratings or buyrates, if anything I think the ratings will go up. They were pulling low 4s in 06 and now they're low 3s; Cena is no ratings draw. When he was injured the ratings didn't change much (I don't think buyrates did either). I've said my piece on the Make-a-Wish stuff, I think it's a stupid reason to stunt the creative and (potential) financial growth of your product.

    But I can understand and even begrudgingly agree with some of those reasons. But from a creative standpoint? I shake my head at anyone who thinks this guy's character is not completely played out and stale. A heel turn freshens everything up, and opens up a whole new set of opponents (or old ones with switched face/heel orientations). It'll make Raw INTERESTING again, can't rely on The Rock and worked shoot promos forever.

    The attitude I'm seeing from some people on this blog is the same attitude I think has afflicted Vince: a fear of risks and the unknown. Play it safe and keep him face, never mind the money you could potentially make with him as the #1 Heel.

    And it's a sad reflection of the Cena Era if success is measured by how much better he does than Shawn and Bret. Plus those guys didn't have the present-day WWE marketing and merchandise machine behind them. Even Austin wasn't exploited to his full potential.

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  98. Shhhhh... don't talk so loud or the children will hear.

    (Helen Lovejoy voice): Oh won't SOMEONE think of the children?!?

    I've talked a lot of smack about John Cena, but he does seem like a very nice guy. If I had to spend a day hanging out with 1 wrestler, I'd probably pick him. But let's not be so naive to think he's this ultra clean-cut good 'ol boy who would NEVER dream of cheating on his wife, no matter how many gorgeous women throw themselves at him night after night. Or that with his insane schedule and limited recovery time he hasn't used any 'enhancers' due to his strong moral code.

    How many times do people have to be burned by their 'heroes' before they learn to stop 'Saintifying' them in their own heads. And their children's heads, too.

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  99. I replied to Night 81's comment with this so I'll just repeat the point.

    I like John Cena. He seems like a really nice guy, the kind of guy who if I worked alongside him I would really like cause he's friendly and personable. But let's not be so naive to think this guy falls into the 5% of pro athletes that DON'T cheat on their spouse. He doesn't bring his wife to WM weekend (at least he didn't for 26). He's hitting the Miami/NY/LA nightlife WM week and he has tons of beautiful women who would do ANYTHING to him. I'm not saying he's taking a different girl every night, but the odds that he's never cheated on his wife are slim.

    And judging purely by his physique and hectic schedule I'd say most rationale people would say he's taken something at some point to 'enhance' his performance. Why does he get all the benefit of the doubt but HHH gets none? Both men have insane work ethics by all accounts, but only 1 is a full-timer.

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  100. Lol, chinwins, with all due respect, is a bigger mark than most of the kids on 411. Cena plays a character on tv, you have no idea what he's like in real life. He could just as easily be a huge scum bag, and let's not act like we can't tell he uses steroids. Cenas crappy character is the worst part of raw, I don't think he needs a heel turn but he needs to be booked in more interesting manner.

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  101. My favorite is how he bashes the Rock for leaving and "never wanting to be a wrestler, he just used it as a stepping stone". You know that if the Marine and 12 Rounds were huge hits, he would be in Hollywood as well making movies.

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  102. Thanks for the heads up man. Went and watched it yesterday after I read your post on here, and damn that match was amazing. I still am stoked for wm28, but that's some tough work rate to match.

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  103. Yeah, he already cheated on his wife on live television! (lol)

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  104. I think the only reason "smart" fans haven't turned on cena like the newsletter and dirt sheet guys that hated hogan in the late 80's and early 90's is because he can really go in the ring. Yeah his character is pretty bad, (that's more on Vince imo) but he brings the goods in the main event and really that's what I want from the top guy anyway

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  105. I'd mark out for a Nash, Waltman, and DDP run in. Especially since the three were at the Hall of Fame last night (Nash came in short grey hair).

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  106. Obviously, I don't know all the facts; Cena could very easily be a drug-fueled philanderer and be VERY good at hiding it, but I - in my limited knowledge - don't believe that to be the case.

    After the "Signature Pharmacy" scandal, he was one of the only guys whose physique didn't change during the few months that WWE was really cracking down on steroids. Of course, that could also be because he was allowed to be the exception to the rule by not being tested, I don't know, but I prefer to believe that the explanation is more positive than negative.

    As for his wife, she worked for (and may still currently work for, I'm not sure) WWE, so it's very possible that she does indeed travel with him a lot. It's also possible that he happens to be a good guy that wouldn't cheat on his wife. There are countless celebrities that cheat on their spouses, but there ARE some that don't, regardless of fame and fortune making it easy to do so. I like to think that Cena is one of the few.

    It's certainly possible that I'm just naive, but it's also certainly possible that you're just jaded.

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  107. I don't understand how that would mean a lack of freedom of speech. He's free to say whatever he wants, he will just have consequences and be asked to explain himself if he does. There is no proper context to use a slur like "retarded".

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  108. Kind of off topic but as a life long oakland a's fan I hate that book and money. Sabermetrics had as much to do with the a's winning four division titles as Scott Norton had to do with nwo. Drafting Mulder, Hudson, and Zito who were all blue chip prospects and riding them as far as they could was why they won

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  109. Oh, I totally agree on the financial vs. artistic reasons.

    As you can probably tell from my posts, I'm a big mark for Cena. I think he's a great performer and a hell of a human being. Even *I*, however, can admit that Cena's character is beyond stale, and that basically making him not only the #1 focus, but virtually the ONLY focus, has been a terrible idea for many years now. I will not argue that, and will even say that I was actually actively angry at some of his most recent wins, such as beating Batista at "WrestleMania 26", or Miz at last year's "Extreme Rules" and "Over the Limit"; in both cases, we could have gotten something new and interesting, but, nope, same old same old.

    A Cena heel-turn, though, to me, seems like it would be more of an artistic success than a financial one, similar to Austin's heel-turn in 2001; I was a HUGE fan of Austin's heel run, I thought it was some of the best work of his entire career, but it was obvious that many people just didn't want to see it. Would I like to see it? Yes. Do I think it would hurt business? Yes. Do I think that there are plenty of other ways to improve the product without hinging everything on the one single idea of turning Cena heel? Yes. To me, that reeks of "underpants gnome" logic:

    1) Turn Cena heel.
    2) ???
    3) Profit.

    Why not build other characters as legit main-eventers? Why not let Cena remain face, but show a little vulnerability? And, maybe most of all, why not focus on great storylines and character-development for everybody on the roster, not just two or three main-eventers?

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  110. that's one of the main reasons I like Cena so much. because to me he comes across like "the real deal" on tv and there aren't really ANY reports of him being a douche backstage (not even by former employees).

    I also think that's one part of why many people dislike him. they see their own faults and just cannot believe there is someone who is hardly ever cynical but just a genuine sincere person most of the time.

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  111. wrong (sort of). if Cena continues he is on his way to become the celebrity with most make-a-wish meetings ever.

    if all those reports are at least a bit true Cena has done more in charity than any of the other topstars in their prime. the reason (at least that's how it seems): he LOVES doing it. he LOVES being a hero. just look at the WrestleMania press conference and tell me again that he doesn't.

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  112. this x100!

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  113. there is more evidence (backstage reports, interviews with current and former WWE workers) that he is a genuinely great guy.

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  114. We actually do know what he's like backstage, not a single person has anything bad to say about him. A drunk Kurt Angle doesn't even talk shit. He IS the guy he claims to be, it's obvious.


    And if he used steroids wouldn't he, at some point in the last seven years, have lost or gained a pound?

    I appreciate the desperate need to always be cynical, it is the internet after all, but some people aren't congenital complainers, Cena's one of them.

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  115. Oh no, I'm sure there are too. I just mean, you can never depend on them. It's not in their job description to be "really good at your athletic field AND be a role model" whereas Cena seems to really take it as part of his duty to be both, that's all.

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  116. The last I heard the city is trying to stop it because the plan calls for a new stadium outside of Oakland itself. The rumor is that it would be built in San Jose and thus Oakland doesn't want to do it as they lose out on dollars.

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  117. Hahaha, no I get it, it does suck. It's just part of getting older. I used to complain about MTV not playing videos too, they didn't give a shit. I wasn't in their...desired group of fans...or something.

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  118. 1) Bret Hart was booed BECAUSE he was an actual babyface. His entire character post-WM 13 was that of the anti-heel.

    2) Of course it's stale to adults that are fifteen years outside of their target demo. I find Mickey Mouse Clubhouse to be fucking stale too, but that's the point, they aren't marketing to me. They're marketing to kids who, judging by the merchandise sales, don't find him stale at all. As a fan I want to see Punk destroying the entire roster like Austin-97, but I know that will never happen because Punk isn't half as marketable as Cena is, both to kids and ESPECIALLY to sponsors.

    Is it the most satisfying to older, jaded fans that don't buy merchandise? No, of course not. Is it perfectly acceptable to a whole new group of potentially lifelong fans that DO buy merchandise (and buy a shitload of it?) yes, it appears to be.

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  119.  Ask Tracy Morgan about freedom of speech

    Ask Rush LImbaugh...

    Ask Bill Maher...

    Ask Louis CK...

    Corporate sponsorships don't give a flying shit about your "rights" they care about what affects their bottom line.

    Like I said, I LOVE Punk, I wish he'd get the super-push to end all super-pushes, but he's a dangerous "face of the company", that's all.

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  120. Yup, he uses steroids, that's why his physique is literally exactly the same as it was when he was 20.

    Don't let an obvious reality get in the way of your complaining!

    Tell me about MTV not playing music videos. That's about how much effect your whining will have on the stockholders and the sponsors.

    You. Aren't. The. Audience. Anymore.

    Learn to cope.

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  121. He must be using steroids! That's why in almost ten years we haven't seen him shrink or blow up, sure.

    If only Barry could have gotten ahold of these magic steroids that never affect your appearance, he wouldn't be the most hated man in the history of baseball...maybe.

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  122. We've watched Triple H swell and shrink several times over the years. Cena get's the benefit of the doubt because there's never been any actual evidence to suggest that he's a roid freak. 

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  123. Wouldn't the fact that his physique at 35 being the same as it was when he was a 20 year old bodybuilder be an indictment of his using steroids?

    The thing is, he's also bigger now than he was when he came up with the WWE from OVW.

    My comment was actually a response to someone else who blasted Bret Hart for being a phony while praising Cena as a role model. For some reason, it got kicked to being a singular statement.

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  124. If Cena doesn't turn heel then the internet won't quit bitching!

    Because that's going to happen...seriously...

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  125. Not when you consider he's never gotten smaller. I mean, I don't know shit about roids but if you're body stays exactly the same how are you ever cycling off?

    It's all relative. Even if he's a roid freak he's still far and away a more realistic "hero" to kids than anyone else just based on all the other things he does (and doesn't do).

    By the way, if the Rock was still around (and had been around the last few years) I'd be saying all the very same things about him.

    When you're a parent you NEED people in the world your kids can look up to. If, at a later time, they turn out to be despicable people it sucks, that's why I like having a guy that I can be PRETTY SURE isn't going to end up dying of an OD or killing someone or getting a DUI or something similar.

    If doing roids...in professional wrestling...is the worst the guy ever did, then he's a fucking angel.

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  126. Punk is made out to be this jealous, hateful person that doesn't respect anybody or anything, honestly it's comparable to the hatred people have towards Triple H (in intensity, not numbers)  he's seen as this cancer that only does something nice because it'd help his image or something similar.

    When the report came out about the guy at the house show who grabbed the shirt from the kid and Punk got a new shirt to give to the kid people were criticizing Punk for...some reason or another.

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  127. The people in the world that your children should be looking up to is you.

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  128. Could you scream "I don't have kids" any louder?

    How do kids ever become baseball players, or football players, or astronauts, or military officers, or professional wrestlers unless they grew up looking up to those people?

    Your basically saying "I want to cheer John Cena, so the way children have been raised for the last 100 years should change...so I can have MY HERO, John Cena the heel (who's actually a face because you'd cheer him)"

    Awesome logic.

    The way the 'E markets to the Attitude generation is by marketing to that generation's children. We aren't 17 anymore I'm afraid.

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  129. I'm a game designer. You wanna know who I looked up to as a kid?

    Indiana Jones. 

    Explain that child psychologist.

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  130. A larger than life guy that gets to freely explore the world, gets the girl and always nabs the bad guy?

    You're a game designer and your biggest childhood hero was a guy that lived a video game life?

    Yup, that makes no sense at all...lol.

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  131. HA! WRONG! He doesn't always get the girl! She died in Last Crusade!

    That's all I got. Lol.

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  132. Hahaha, ok good point. I don't remember anything about Last Crusade except thinking "Wow...Sean Connery is fucking awesome."

    I was probably 9.

    He's still fucking awesome, by the way.

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  133. You don't know me, at all.  And I never looked up to a fictional character as some sort of font of morality, the people I looked up to were my mom and my brother, they were the ones that made me who I am.  I wasn't raised by a fucking television set.  And I decided what to do not out of a sense of childhood markdom, but through analyzing and processing the relevant information to make a decision about what was best for me.  I appreciate the beauty of what I do, not because I was a child, but because I'm an adult.

    And yes, I do think the way children are being raised should be changed, because the past generally sucked.  Your child should look up to their parent, not Cena, not Punk, not Hogan and definitely not Austin.

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  134. So...you don't have kids then? lol

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  135. So you don't have an intelligent response then? lol

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  136. That was all the response I needed, you're screeching about things you don't know anything about.

    Tell me more about parenting, child.

    I'm sorry you're not in their target demo. I'm sure if you keep complaining they will bow to your whims, everyone knows if you placate they'll shut the fuck up.

    That's a joke, by the way.

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  137. I don't know you.  But you seem to be a pretty average parent, plop your kid in front of the TV, and then drink/smoke yourself into a stupor.

    You're right, you're doing a way better job than I would.

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  138. "I don't know you, so let me make a ton of assumptions about you."

    Good stuff!

    So you don't have kids then? Tell me more about parenting, go on. It's adorable.

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  139. I figured the trolling you promised wouldn't have run it's course in a 24 hour period, color me disappoint.

    ReplyDelete

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