Hey Scott,
Like you, I'm very into Are You Serious, so I was wondering what you made of Matthews' snide remark of "Plus, at least this show has lasting power," when told of Zack Ryder's claims of gimmick infringement. Is this Vince laughing in the face of the Internet about Ryder's de-push? What exactly is the point of THAT supposed to be?
Also, what exactly was up with that Hade Vansen guy? What were the plans for him, and why was his planned run squashed?
Thanks.
As for the Ryder thing, my WWE-to-English dictionary skills are getting increasingly rusty I guess, because I also don't know what exactly the point was supposed to be. It's like they forget that they are a worked sport and once they book Ryder to be on a giant losing streak, they treat it like it's something out of their control and make fun of him being on a giant losing streak. Maybe, in their bizarre backwards minds, the Kane angle was supposed to be the thing to get him over as main event guy and when it failed spectacularly the blame went to Ryder? Like now they're saying to him "Hey, we did everything we could and you dropped the ball"? I dunno, they're on a different planet sometimes and I don't pretend to understand it.
Mayhaps the point was more that Ryder simply isn't very good.
ReplyDeleteI think Vince just flat-out doesn't like Ryder. Not because of the internet deal or whatever, I think he simply has no use for him. Reminds me a lot of the Christian situation, where powerful people are in his corner and pulling for him, but Vince just doesn't dig the guy so he's screwed. Or maybe it's like with Finkel, where Vince just likes picking on him and has no respect for him because he won't fight back or stand up for himself (not that he could without getting fired, but still).
ReplyDeleteYeah. Ryder just can't really hold is own in the ring or on the mic. His gimmick isn't really funny either. IMO he seems like someone who should get their ass kicked every week.
ReplyDeleteDid Ryder do something backstage or something? It just doesn't seem to make any sense at all. He got himself over, and they were hesitant to push him. Then they gave in and gave him something of a push - he needed John Cena to get him a title shot, but they made him John Cena's pal, had Cena putting him over verbally, and then he beats Ziggler for his big moment with the US Title...and then they immediately start to bury him. They kind of protected him in saying he shouldn't have wrestled when he defended the title, then dropped that, then had him get beat up by Kane to the point it was humorous, he got no revenge for it at all and just seemed happy that Kane stopped beating him up, his woman tries to bang John Cena, then he falls for her apology like a moron, takes the pinfall loss in a 12 man tag match at Wrestlemania, gets kicked in the balls and laughed at afterwards by said girl, is the first guy the Miz has beaten in months, and now he's seems to be turning into the guy who just jobs when a job is needed.
ReplyDeleteThe timing of it just seems weird - they finally start to push him and then it's like the decided to bury himself instead.
But how would we ever KNOW that? All I hear the Ryder-haters saying is "Well, he's not very good in the ring" but he's never in the ring! He gets to wrestle in one-minute squashes lately or he gets 30 seconds in the 12-man tag and loses. Where is all this mythical Zack Ryder TV time where he's actually wrestling long enough to judge his abilities coming from?
ReplyDeleteWhich would be a fine argument if he initially got himself over based on his ring work in the indies (ala Punk or Bryan), but Ryder turned his gimmick into a meme and it never really translated to television. He just looks like a dumb goof that should get jobbed in seconds. I think the gimmick actually works better this way (since its fucking retarded in the first place).
ReplyDeleteBatista was greener than grass when they called him up from OVW and regularly stunk up the ring. But he got better by wrestling non-squash matches with veterans who could teach him how to work. If Zach is "terrible" but actually gets an organic response from the audience, wouldn't it make sense to try and teach him and help him improve to a certain level? I mean, if you do that and he proves hopeless, then at least you tried and have every right to dump him and move on to other prospects. But, much like the Bryan deal, they don't even seem inclined to at least try. That's what so frustrating, especially since (outside of WM) they need all the help they can get in terms of creating potential moneymakers.
ReplyDeleteI like Ryder enough, but in many ways I think he's getting exactly what he wanted and exactly what his fans had hoped for. The whole purpose of his web show was to be used and to be recognized. He's now both. It was never about being a main eventer and winning all of his matches. It really just seemed like he wanted to be featured on Raw and to get recognized as being over. And that's exactly what he's got now.
ReplyDeleteConsider that he's used pretty much every single week on Raw....and even during that injury angle, he was either wheeled on stage (or off of it) or mentioned repeatedly to remind the viewers that he exists. He's got more merchandise than anybody in his position. He was a part of a featured match at WrestleMania. He got an obligatory singles title win. His popularity with the audience was used to illicit emotions with the audience during the Kane/Cena angle. He loses clean against people higher up the card than him, but he typically beats people at his level.
He received a crappy, half hearted push. But if they wanted to bury him, he'd be stuck on NXT with Curt Hawkings and Tyler Reks. He's being featured like he always wanted, he's making some nice money off of his merchandise, and the money is making some money off of him. They probably just don't see him as a main eventer.
Great point. There's buried...and then there's Superstars/NXT.
ReplyDeleteI watched Superstars, Scott. And ECW when he was there. The dude is average in the ring. The best usage of him, IMO, is to stick him in a tag team and let him run in that setting.
ReplyDeleteHe's not terrible in the ring. He's just completely average in every way. Not unlike the Miz.
Look, I sort of agree here. I don't think Zack's capable of being anything more than a low-card singles wrestler or a mid-card tag wrestler (if such a thing ever exists again). BUT, WWE ignoring the crowd reactions to him is a typical WWE thing to do these days. And they gave the guy no shot to stay over with the crowd.
ReplyDeleteI don't see how Ryder's gimmick is any stupider than the Funkasaurus.
ReplyDeleteIs Ryder supposed to be a Jersey Shore type of moron? Or is he more of a friendly but simple guy who's trying to fit in by coping what he sees as popular without realizing how lame it actually is? Or have they ever tried to explain either way?
ReplyDeleteI figured Mathews' jab was just breaking balls, like ya do with friends. No way is Vince micromanaging their YouTube 5-minute "shows" so I doubt it had anything to do with him.
ReplyDeleteExactly. If you push the guy based on the crowd reaction and nothing comes of it, fine. But they seemingly did everything in their power to undercut his popularity with the audience and turn him into Just Another Guy on the roster. Which is why it's always hilarious to me when they try and shove someone down the fans' collective throats and it completely backfires.
ReplyDeleteThe character was working great until they decided he would not only
ReplyDeletealways lose, but never even get a "feel-good" moment in anything
(segment, match, storyline).
Average in the ring, over with the crowd. Sounds like someone who should be buried to me...
ReplyDeleteIf you offer me a plate of rotten meat or a bowl of manure, I'm probably going to take the rotten meat. Doesn't mean either option is appealing.
ReplyDelete"No way is Vince micromanaging their YouTube 5-minute "shows" so I doubt it had anything to do with him."
ReplyDeleteAre you new? Because that's exactly the type of thing Vince would do.
He micromanages PPVs and Raw and maybe Smackdown. The rest of it, I have no doubt he doesn't even watch them.
ReplyDeleteOn a different note than Ryder....
ReplyDeleteMy favorite of guys who were supposed to be huge deals, did a crappy promo, and got bounced was Braden Walker. I still watch YouTube clips occasionally for a laugh.
Not that he would reach the same level, but that's exactly what they said about Cena when he got over. They saw him as a superstar if their could hide his weakness in the ring.
ReplyDeleteBased on the commentary of Cole and Matthews I don't think he was micromanaging NXT (and this was back when they actually had a TV deal), so I could see them having free reign on a 5 minute Youtube show. Judging by some of the jokes I think this show falls into the NXT pile.
ReplyDeletePlus wrestlers get better in the ring by wrestling matches with more capable workers that last longer than a minute on a regular basis.
ReplyDeleteIn an ideal world Ryder would have gotten a nice, long reign with the US title and legitimized himself as a solid performer who can win important matches. That isn't what happened. But I still don't think he's being treated as poorly as many people seem to think he is. And I think it's really important to consider where he came from. I'm not saying that things easily could have gone better for him, but I also don't think he's being treated like rotten meat.
ReplyDeleteI'm a Bowtunga mark, so I'm the last guy who'd shit on Ryder's ring work. And to be fair, he DID have some pretty good 15 min matches with Christian on ECW, and that was 3 years ago.
ReplyDeleteMy issue with Ryder is his charisma, or lack thereof. His promos are awful, he has no comic timing (not everyone can be Santino but Ryder is on the level of some of the Divas), his acting is atrocious, he just doesn't come across as a star.
I hope when they release No Holds Barred they include a bonus audio track featuring the Are You Serious guys. Josh Matthews, Road Dogg, and Puppet H could do their Mystery Science Theater shtick, complete with silhouettes.
ReplyDeleteSounds like a great guy to work for. Heyman said something about that when he booked WWECW. Vince kept constraining and handicapping WWECW so it wouldn't "beat" Raw or something. Heyman said that one day he was in a meeting and he flat-out said to Vince that they're not competing as Heyman was a WWE employee. Vince just had to fee like he was in competition withi someone in order to feel alive or something.
ReplyDeleteThis seems like that WWE mentality of "if it didn't happen on TV, it never happened." Just because he's wrestling on Raw for minute long matches doesn't mean people haven't seen him wrestle longer than that. He used to wrestle longer matches on Superstars and ECW, and at live events of course.
ReplyDeleteOf course, in fairness, those matches were as a heel which is a completely different dynamic.
Yep. Superstars and NXT (early on) were fun precisely because Vince didn't micromanage them. Same thing happens to Smackdown at least once a year, where Vince will go about three months focusing so heavily on Raw that he forgets SD exists. Consequently, the shows get better with mainly Hayes just running the show.
ReplyDeleteReminds me of the RVD situation in 2001 and 2002. He was red hot, moreso than Ryder, and the company did everything they could to make sure he was seen as just another midcarder by the end of '02.
ReplyDeleteCena cut good promos.
ReplyDeleteMaybe the reason they don't listen to the internet is because the internet is notoriously fickle about EVERYTHING (not just wrestling).
ReplyDeleteRemember that Kony thing? Me either.
I agree with many of your sentiments on Ryder, however, a good portion of the crowd were into him. That's hard to do, especially in the way he did it. Burying him is not the solution to improve on the things he needs.
ReplyDeleteHe's a well-meaning doofus.
ReplyDeleteI know people who just have to "win", it doesn't matter what it is, but they value victory over everything else. I guess I'm just too laid-back to get it, but I really don't understand why people care that much.
ReplyDeleteI was just thinking that since these YouTube shows are supposedly the precursor to the Network, I figured Vince would be heavily involved. You're probably right, though.
ReplyDeleteSounds like a little kid I know.
ReplyDeleteI thought it was Vade Hansen.
ReplyDeleteAnd I've been calling her Krandle!!!
It probably goes back to your history of always having to settle for less.
ReplyDeletelol
True, but the WWE is insisting that the internetz is super important now with the giant push of social media sites and running angles through them and on their website. In essence, the internet fans is not so much smart fans anymore, there's just too many folks on these days. Think of fans of sports teams, they aren't classified as internet and regular fans.
ReplyDeleteAnywho, what was my point? lol, I'm losing it. Yeah, I was sort of agreeing with yyou.
Why does it matter where he came from? So because he was a jobber on an afterthought show before, he should just be happy to be on Raw regardless of what that entails? That's pretty fucking stupid. That doesn't fly in any other sports/entertainment industry.
ReplyDeleteEven if you think he's nothing more than a random midcarder, he's not even being treated THAT well. Since he won the US title, he's been squashed in 2-minute matches, destroyed in non-match segments, and played for a pussified fool in face-to-face encounters with a woman. And every person who has done him wrong (Kane, Cena, Eve, Ace, and Swagger) have gotten off scot-free with zero retaliation from Ryder. In what world is that anything but rotten meat?
Whether you like Ryder or not, the fans were into him and it's retarded for a company who is interested in making money to shit on something their paying customers have bought into.
The even stranger thing is apparently the WWE is going to be releasing a Zack Ryder DVD this summer. My first thought was ummmm with what matches or will they have enough material without having to include his YouTube videos. My 2nd thought was it's a bad idea and it's going to bomb. My final thought was this will be the final straw for Ryder so when his DVD tanks the WWE will be convinced to continue to job him until they ultimately release him.
ReplyDeleteSame level of stupidity, no questions there. The difference is that Clay never has to be good in the ring to succeed and Ryder practically has to be Shawn Michaels since there are a million guys his same size that look just like him.
ReplyDelete"That doesn't fly in any other sports/entertainment industry."
ReplyDeleteof course it does. going from basically being an extra with no lines to becoming a minor character would be considered a huge improvement for every actor as well.
The saddest part about Ryder is that the Jersey Shore pop culture wave started, crested and now is more or less over (it'll never be OVER but trust me...it's over) and he's had this gimmick that could easily tie into this sort of thing and it was barely even touched on.
ReplyDeleteIt's not necessarily that he's a Jersey Shore wannabe it's just that the Long Island, Queens, Jersey (and probably other places I've never been to) club culture has a certain homogenity to it. It was around before Jersey Shore and is still going. Stuff like this (NSFW language) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5QJ9i_o5vo predates Jersey Shore by 2 years and it wasn't even "new" at the time.
So they never tied him into Jersey Shore (although they could have). His gimmick is pretty organic, it's just him doing something he has great familiarity with due to where he's from.
I listened to a segment of a radio interview from Youtube with former WWE writer Alex Greenfield whose take on Vince McMahon in that in his mind that he has to create competition within the creative team in order to produce the best results including pitting the Raw creative team against the Smackdown creative team. He also states that he thinks this doesn't work whatsoever and only causes petty problems within the WWE creative system. The guy seems so out of touch with reality and even though the writer thinks Vince wants less yes-men around him, I've heard conflicting reports and rumours that Vince doesn't like people going against him so God knows how horrid the atmosphere must be during creative meetings.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftmqTiCNzTQ
Check out Dolph's recent WWE Download on YouTube. it's 6 minutes responding to comedian Nathan Barnatt (Keith Apicary is the character). No way Vince cares about that.
ReplyDeleteYou're a funny guy ChinWins, I'll kill you last.
ReplyDeleteYeah, most kids are like that.
ReplyDeleteOh I was being serious. It makes perfect sense that a kid that's been settling for less since day one wouldn't understand winning.
ReplyDeleteExcept that's not really analogous to the Ryder situation. The minor character actor would then need to have his character re-written so that everything that helped him ascend to that level was gone and then be left off the show for a month with a flimsy excuse. And then have all his storylines dropped with no resolution.
ReplyDeleteOr even knows who that guy is.
ReplyDeleteI assume it's gonna be to the effect of what John Morrison's DVD was like.
ReplyDeleteOf course it matters where he came from. That's the definition of the term "buried." It considers your placement at one point and compares it to a much lower point later on. When you're losing to people higher up the card than you, you're not being buried. Just because the fans WANT you at that level doesn't mean you're AT that level. And therein lies the problem. Most people here don't look at how Ryder is being treated. They think about how they'd like him to be treated, and when he's not treated that well, they consider it a burial.
ReplyDeleteOutside of John Cena, CM Punk, and Randy Orton, it's not as if the company is out there protecting anybody. Ryder is basically getting treated the same way most people are. This year alone we've seen Daniel Bryan, Miz, Drew McIntyre, and John Morrison ALL do a losing streak gimmick. And those are the ones I can think of on the top of my head.
Happens all the time. Ever watch the original Melrose Place or 90210? Extras were constantly promoted to regulars and then written off.
ReplyDeleteKNOCK KNOCK
ReplyDeleteWHO'S THERE
BRADEN WALKER
He'd probably be squashing Yoshi Tatsu on Superstars right now if he hadn't gotten 6 months pregnant.
And that, any of that, strikes you as a good way to do business? In the end, you can argue about Ryder's position relative vis a vis etc etc, but the fact is that the company has no viable mid card because they haven't consistently pushed guys like Ziggler, Swagger, and Ryder. Are these guys going to become the face of the company? Probably not, but you need a midcard with guys who are moderately over.
ReplyDeleteSo they have a guy fall into their lap, and most of their work is done. They just have to put him up against some good workers so he can become less green, and boom, you've got a midcarder. HE did the hard work. You're position seems to be that he should thank his lucky stars that he's employed at all, but once again HE did the hard work. Isn't that what people keep harping about? Guys getting themselves over? So he does it and now's the time where that sort of stuff should be rewarded, but it isn't. It's no great tragedy, it's just a terrible way to do business.