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The Brock Lesnar Thread!

Let’s see which one gets more views, the Brock thread or the Bryan thread.  Social experiment!

Cena/Lesnar 1 was almost exactly 9 years to the day of Extreme Rules. Do you run Cena/Lesnar 2 that early? I think they should, and play up the history of the first match being the launching pad for Cena becoming more than a mid card novelty act.

You sure do run it that early.  They’ve apparently got Brock locked in for 8 PPV appearances at a staggering amount of money for each (Dave was vague on the numbers on the radio show this morning, but it’s more than the $50,000 per match he got in Japan and less for the year than he made in one UFC fight), so they gotta start using him.  However currently the advertising for Extreme Rules has Punk v. Cena as the main event, so they might change the title to Cena there and have Brock win it early on at another PPV like Money In The Bank.  The goal here is not Brock v. Cena anyway, the goal is Brock ploughs through Cena, Randy Orton, Sheamus, and CM Punk, wins the WWE title at Royal Rumble or earlier from whoever the unlucky sap holding it is, and drops the belt to the Rock at Wrestlemania in his last match on the way out.  That’s how the money will be made.  Whether they can resist the temptation to have him put someone over besides Rock, or whether Lesnar can resist the temptation to tell Vince to go fuck himself sometime around Summerslam, that’s another matter.

Quick question for you:
I keep debating to myself which the best way financially and entertainment wise to redebut Brock.  While there are many different ways, I think there are four practical options the wwe had:
1. Advertise him for mania in some capacity
2. Have him show up unannounced at mania
3. Have him show up unannounced on raw (which they did)
4. Advertise his first appearance at extreme rules
I don't know which option would be best, I feel advertising him last minute for mania would have to increase the buyrate in some capacity ( even if only 1 million to 1.05) and you would still get a bump for extreme rules since he will (presumably) be competing. I also wonder if having him interfere unannounced in rock/cena would cause a considerable backlash (a year long hyped match ending by interference).
Just wondering your thoughts.

Mania was the Rock show and Lesnar wouldn’t move the needle without an angle behind it, so I would say no buys there.  I think having him F5 Rock so that Cena won would have been pretty awesome and set up next year’s main event, and probably would have tempered any anger fans might have had with Cena winning.  Plus then Cena beats the Rock and faces Lesnar on a winning note before he gets demolished.  Last night’s way worked just as well for me, though. 


  1. Choosing between Daniel Bryan and BROCK is like choosing between children. I refuse to do so on grounds that my wife would stab me with the keys again if I tried.

  2. Brock's return was definitely a moment to remember, but I just wonder about the direction of John Cena. Cena has been the one guy that I have absolutely detested for the last 9 years, but between Mania and Brock's F5 I'm starting to feel bad for him.

    He loses clean to a guy who's already back making movies and then looks like a chump to a guy who's only committed to a year and very few appearances. Rock and Brock are two of my favs, but I just wonder how you can make Cena look like he's on the level of any of the greats if this is the end result. 

  3. Rewatching the segment, I do kind of hope they establish that Brock, like the Rock and CM Punk, know that Cena is full of shit and that the beating was to spare the people more of Cena's bullshit.

    Play up the bastard angle: Brock goes off into the fact that he can say and beat up ANYONE and the people will love him while Cena is Vince's lapdog and who had his balls chopped off and is in a massive state of denial about it, even after the Rock beat him and owned his ass. Have him join in Jericho's tormenting of CM Punk via dumping booze on him and fucking Eve while Ryder is tied up, bound and gagged in the corner of the room, and have him basically beat Shemus up as his personal bitch.

    Brock as a monster bully could give him the needed storyline to make his return work. Maybe have Johnny Ace say he hired Brock after being made sole GM and is letting him do whatever he wants.

    And Cena sits on the sidelines, broken after his first defeat at Brock's hands and basically us getting the WWE to make us want to see Cena beat the shit out of Brock. Watch Cena go to the dark side and ultimately come back to beat Brock once and for all. 


  4. Brock beats Cena on PPV.

    Cena finally loses his shit Ned Flanders style and refuses to wrestle anymore, forcing Ace to give Cena a talk show segment to keep him on the air

    Cena goes full negative, talking about how he refuses to wrestle anymore/how he hates his fans and being an emo asshole in his interview segments as the various good guys come onto the segment to beg him to come back and fight again since Brock goes on a reign of terror.

    Finally CM Punk goes onto the talk show and calls Cena a pussy and coward, then challenges Brock to a match. Brock massacres Punk Zack Ryder style. Rock shows up and tries to make a save (having seen Punk's bravery and maybe having Punk diss Rock for not caring that Brock is running rampant and all) and gets massacred as well. 

    As Punk and Rock are loaded off onto ambulances (and off TV, with Punk in particular going off to film a WWE direct to video movie while "injured") Zack Ryder drags Cena from his private locker room and forces Cena to watch Punk and Rock being carted off and tells him that if he won't stop Brock from doing shit like that, then Zack is going to have to man up and do it even if he has no chance in hell of succeeding.  

    Zack fights Brock. Brock beats the shit out of Zack and is about to cripple him for life when Cena finally gets off his ass and saves Zack and beats Brock up, setting up Brock Vs Cena where Cena wins and sends Brock packing.   

  5. 8 matches? who do people want to see wrestle? it should be:

    Cena ( twice)
    The rock
    CM Punk
    Randy Orton
    Royal Rumble match.

  6. I'm... going to guess that "card is subject to change" will rear it's head for Extreme Rules, since Punk/Jericho II is all but set in stone after Monday night. Hell, Punk/Henry makes more sense than Punk/Cena. 

  7. Which would put over the one guy in the company that doesn't need to put over while absolutely burying the guy they're trying to build up as a main event player.

  8. Is Rock Vs Brock the ultimate endgame of this?

    Whilst that's a match I'd like to see somewhere down the line again (summer slam 02 was a lot of fun) that's surely not the best way to have Brock go out again.

    At some point these returning legends (including HHH, HBK & Undertaker in that bracket) have got to start interacting with the regular roster and putting them over.

    Punk needs to start interacting with these guys in the worst way.

  9. This week on Raw, Big Johnny suspends Jericho for the attack on Punk and makes Cena vs Punk for the title at the PPV, with Brock as the enforcer. During the match, Jericho runs down and costs Punk the title, Brock lets it happen and counts the 3. Brock ends the PPV F5'ing Cena 's stupid fucking green hat.

    Next night on Raw, Big Johnny and Jericho reveal the suspension was a ruse to get Punk to let his guard down so they could get the title off him. Brock reveals he let Jericho do his thing so he can be the one to destroy Cena for the belt. Sets up Jericho/Punk and Brock/Cena. And later you can transition to Punk/Brock based off of Punk being pissed that Brock didn't stop the interference. 

  10. Holy cow would Cena be ripped to shreds if he is shoved in the title picture and beats Punk in Chicago at ER.

  11. Sooo... The one year plan is to put Brock over the whole roster, and have him transition the title belt to an actor wrestling his second match in a decade... But... where's the Hogan title run?! I like Brock, and he could provide some good energy and good feuds with his return. However, destroying the roster for a guy who is not committed to the sport and is unlikely to stay around long term, just to pop another good Wrestlemania buy rate (and extending the Wrestlemania streak of not putting over any new stars to - what - 7 years? Watch out Undertaker, bad booking is going to own your streak!) seems to destructive.

    Damnit, this just shows how much TNA sucks! At least WCW had the ability to take away all of the WWF's established stars so that the next generation could go over well (with some help from Shawn's karma). Nowadays, these legends just stay around forever and suck up to each other. I can't wait to Wrestlemania 35, Cena vs the Returning Batista vs The Undertaker with HBK and HHH as two wacky referees that don't like each other. Of course, rumors of a Rock run-in will abound.... Holy crap, am I bitter!!!

  12. Cena's been on top unopposed for 7 years. He'll be ok. 

  13. What careers would Brock be destroying? Cena? Won't hurt him. Orton? Won't hurt him. Henry? Won't hurt him. HHH? Won't hurt him. Punk? Jericho? Sheamus? Won't hurt them either. 

    They are not putting FCW prospects in there with him and having him destroy them in 30 seconds. They will put the biggest stars they have with him to pop the biggest buyrates they can.

  14. I was just thinking about this, after the reaction he got last night, if your WWE do you just have Brock make appearances in known Smark-Territories like Chicago, Philly, New York, etc. 

  15. I don't recall saying he would be destroying anyone's careers. Nor do I think he will generally even hurt them all that much. What he will do, I think, is create a holding pattern, wherein guys like Sheamus and Punk (both of whom Scott mentioned) - as well as guys lower down the roster - get placed below a bunch of former stars all to pop some buyrates. Then, the day after mania next year, we get to resume previous programming - "Where were we? Oh yes, Sheamus needs to be a main eventer now...Umm...let's put him over....Curt Hawkins... That should give him a rub!"

    Cena and Rock gave Punk room to operate? I guess so. But I would also offer an alternate interpretation. CM Punk got pushed over the top specifically by working with John Cena. Cena played the story serious as all hell, Punk ran his mouth like a champ, they put on a show, and Punk was a star. The last few months have seen multiple people on this board complaining about the seeming lack of intensity in Punk's recent character. Well, he ain't the center of the show no more, so he had to learn his place. Then, when they need him put over, they bring in Jericho - a guy that actually gets the business and the art of putting people over.

    Rock and Brock headlining mania could be fine, assuming we don't get a repeat of this year. The matches were good, but no new talent got to show off at all, thus not doing much for the roster at all. If they stack the rest of the card and let the youngsters put on a show I am all for it. I am just concerned that spending a year making a short term investment look better than everyone, only to job him to another short term investment, seems a bit odd... Maybe I am off base here, but Wrestlemania was once a place for coming out parties...

  16. Alright, so here's how you book this going forward to make millions, make a new megastar, use Brock correctly AND clear up a couple of problems WWE has right now and make the titles mean something again. Seriously, it's so simple that if they DON'T do it they're more retarded than we ever thought.

    -Next week you establish via Johnny Ace or whatever that Brock is a mercenary who is here for the money and nothing else, he'll only wrestle when he chooses and he wants the title because that's how you make the most money. All super-important because it puts over why someone would want the belt and also pushes that Brock isn't going to be wrestling every week.

    -You choose from there the guy you want to take Brock out at the end of the road (Wrestlemania 29). Caveat is that it's got to be someone they want as a NEW STAR and not UT/HHH/Rock/Cena/Orton/Jericho basically. So pick anyone, doesn't matter - Sheamus, Punk, Bryan, even someone from left field works here. Key is that you've got to stick to the plan and not "lose faith" in this guy halfway through the year. You keep that guy away from Brock and protect them to fuck.

    -You start putting Brock over the established stars on PPVs. So guys like I mentioned like Cena and Orton and HHH fall quickly to him. Brock does not wrestle on TV, only on PPV. At Summerslam you get the WWE Title on him by putting him over one of those big names. Personally I'd move the belt onto Cena in like May/June sometime and have Brock beat Cena at Summerslam.

    -Now, here's the key. Everyone and his dog knows that Lesnar isn't going to be wrestling off suddenly the WWE Title ISN'T being defended every fucking week like a prop. Fans become conditioned to this again because it's BROCK.

    -Brock continues to roll over the big names (you could throw in guys like Big Show here if Brock has enough dates, if not stick to Cena/Orton/HHH/Taker/Rock) and then at Survivor Series....he wins the World Title and unifies the belts. And now through small steps you've got the fans to buy into a bad ass champion who DOESN'T defend outside of special circumstances. Every Lesnar Title match is a big event as a UFC Title match with Lesnar would be.

    -Your special dude wins the Royal Rumble and the match with Lesnar at Wrestlemania is set up. If you've protected this guy correctly now, the fans should believe he's the one guy who can stop Brock after they've seen all the other big names fail over the year.

    -At No Way Out/Elimination Chamber/Whatever it's called, DON'T have Brock or Your Guy wrestle. Have them in some sort of weigh-in or contract signing or whatever. Do not under any circumstances have any sort of contact between the two going into Wrestlemania. You can put Your Guy over others going in though but he's basically got to run roughshod over anyone he faces.

    -Wrestlemania comes and Brock does the job cleanly and puts your new megastar over for the Undisputed Title. Bingo. Brock can now go back to his batcave in Minnesota, and the story now becomes about whether Your Guy can hold onto the belt - which he'll be defending on PPVs and actually making a big deal of, seeing as it's the thing making him a millionaire megastar.

    Seriously, how the fuck could they go wrong with that?

  17. They are not going to book Brock for squash matches on PPV. They want it to be epic, and will try to go for it. Whether or not they can pull it off is another matter. What do you think will help Sheamus more, a bunch of boring stip matches with Del Rio, or a huge high profile main event against Brock(Who just happens to be one of the biggest PPV draws of all time)?

  18. Brock is the one guy who could unify the titles and make it a big deal, but 1. I don't think the WWE wants to do it. and 2. I really think it's a mistake putting anyone besides Cena, Rock, or Taker against him at WM29. 

  19. If they do decide to run Punk/Brock at some point, they HAVE to bring in Heyman. That is the perfect spot for him. 

  20. Cena really is the monkey wrench in all of this, because he can't keep losing if they want to keep the character strong. It's not like John's going to keep hitting the ring on RAW after losing at every pay-per-view and saying he won't quit - even the people who like him will stop believing him. It would turn him into a complete parody.

    So they need to find a way to either put him over enough for the character to work or force him into losing his integrity, which both WWE and Cena seem completely adverse to doing. I actually think they'll have him interacting with more midcarders this year, trying to finally make guys like Ziggler and Rhodes (by beating them, of course).

  21. my problem with this: they shouldn't use Brock against Cena next year at WrestleMania because he could easily solidify Punk's status as a Cena-level main event guy (or, for what it's worth, put him against Sheamus). on the other hand I think it makes no sense to let Cena lose against him in a big match situation (both from a backstage and an on screen standpoint).... but it makes even less sense to not have that match on ppv at all.

  22. I totally agree. Rock vs. Brock at WrestleMania would be the worst decision for me.

  23. I agree.  There's no one on the roster right now that i would buy as being a big threat to Brock.  

  24. I just hope that he's going to get himself in shape real soon, and we're not going to get the fat, slow Lesnar that showed up on RAW for the entire year.

  25. WWE is a business, so it is literally their job to put people on TV that people will pay money to see.  Clearly, whether it's the WWE's fault or the current roster's fault, the fans just aren't buying like they did for guys like Rock, Austin, Brock, etc.  The "Attitude Era" or whatever you want to call it was a BETTER PRODUCT with BETTER superstars.  If the WWE can get more people to watch Raw's with Brock killing the current roster, and spend $65 to watch PPV's headlined by The Undertaker & HHH, and buy t-shirts with Bautista than I'm sorry, but to hell with guys like Ryder & the rest of them.  

  26. Best part about Brock on Monday was that it was the exact opposite of Cena's interaction with the Rock.  Rock & Cena was all about who could get the better insult on the mic, who could be cuter and get the bigger reaction from the crowd.  Brock's like a freakin' Terminator...the dude is programmed to destroy whatever is in front of him.  

  27. I know Meltzer seems to thing Brock/Rock is the endgame for Mania 29...but does anyone else think the only logical choice is Undertaker?

    If Brock was only wrestling 2-3 shows then I would definitely work towards Brock/Cena for Mania, but since he has an eight show deal then I would lean towards the "Brock destroys everyone" storyline that most people on the net have been fantasy booking. Yes, you have him beat Cena, Orton, Punk, etc. Most importantly the guy never loses a match. Then you put him up against the one guy in the one situation who never loses. Undefeated and unbeatable Brock vs. Undertaker at Wrestlemania. License to print money.

    The only way I don't book this is if for some reason they don't want to work together (which I assume they are fine with since they were building the angle last year) or if Taker is pretty sure he wants Mania 29 to be his retirement match. If that's the case then I book him against Cena. Gotta do that one at a Mania before the streak is over.

    Of course this IS Vince and WWE after all, so I'm sure he'll be trading wins with Randy Orton and wrestling Miz in top of the hour Raw matches every time they do a shitty a rating.

  28. This has nothing much to do with anything but do you think part of the reason people cheered the Rock and Lesner so much, (myself included) when they came back was because they were wrestling guys that went out and made good after they left and wrestling fans are proud of that? Just a thought

  29. I know losses aren't the live all and die all, but you don't think it hurts Cena JUST A LITTLE that he loses clean to the Rock and then immediately after that gets beaten by Lesnar?  The posterboy of this era gets beat clean by the posterchildren of the two eras before him -- both of whom have been out of the picture for a number of years?

    This is one of those intstances where a loss might not necessarily hurt somebody, but a win could definitely help.  Who benefits by having Brock plow through the entire current roster to lead up to an encounter with the Rock?

    Again, it feels like we're giving a pass to people because they're popular with the audience.  Swap Lesnar and Rock with Hogan and Triple H and people would be singing a very different tune.

  30. Fans have been conditioned to see the older guys as bigger stars. You know how they could rectify that? Putting guys like Punk, Sheamus, and Bryan OVER those old guys. The problem is you have your main WWE with the titles and then the Cena, Rock, HHH, Taker group.

  31. At the moment, no. But you could easily do a Rocky story with someone (my choice would be Punk or Bryan, but I'm a mark for them). Do Rocky-Drago between Punk and Brock; Brock and Punk are trading blows, Brock absolutely demolishes Punk for a while, makes a mistake, Punk takes advantage and wears Brock down to be able to pin him.

  32. What made you think Lesnar was any different than he used to be? He'll get blown up in his first match (which means they should keep it short) and then he'll be fine.

  33. My concern about Brock is that we have a main event picture that is essentially Cena, Rock, Brock, Taker, and HHH. The guys who are around full-time (Punk, Bryan, Sheamus, Orton, and ADR) are upper mid-card and kept largely segregated from the top tier (with Cena being a buffer). I think you have your Cena-Brock match and then focus on using Rock and Brock to build up your new stars. Treating Punk, Sheamus, Bryan, and Orton like they can't hang is detrimental to the company.

    Does anyone know how involved Rock is going to be in coming months? Also, Brock's contract stipulates he has to show up at least twice a month, but is there a cap on the number f dates he can do?

  34.  I'm sure the fact that they left wrestling and became huge stars has something to do with it.

  35. As much as I enjoyed this year's Taker/HHH feud (and match, of course), I really don't want to see him involved with Brock or Cena just cause there's no uncertainty over the finish. I'm sure the marks will buy in, but I (and 95% of the people on here) know that you could put Brock clean over Cena, Orton, Punk, and HHH but it won't affect it. Taker wins at Mania. He ALWAYS wins. Part of the reason Rock/Cena was so fun was you could easily see it going both ways (I for one was betting Cena would win). There's no sense of drama in a Taker feud or match, save for maybe one spot in the actual match (as cynical as I am even I bit on the SCM/Pedigree combo).

    And John Cena has now jobbed clean at WM to Orton (and essentially HHH since it was a stolen pin) and Rock, as well as a tainted loss to Miz. If he was undefeated too, THEN I could buy in to a feud between them. But there's no doubt of the outcome, and I don't want to build a year to a match where there's no uncertainty.

    And before that guy jumps in with the "'you're not the target demo"' crap and "my 8 year old kid absolutely buys Brock as a threat to the Streak", I AM AWARE OF BOTH THESE FACTS. I'm just giving *my* personal opinion of what *I* would like to see (or not want to see in this case). I'm sure it will make a shitload of money.

  36. I think no matter how big of an (alleged) asshole Brock might be backstage, every wrestler past and present has a feeling of appreciation towards him for succeeding in MMA. I'm sure they all get the "lulz you fake fight in your underwear" from time to time.

    I saw some of the twitter reaction from MMA-only fans and it was sad. On Ariel Helwani's feed the other day there was some no-name Playboy model ripping on pro wrestling and its fans, basically saying good riddance to Brock (and you just KNOW she was slurping the guy hard when he won the title).

  37. My understanding is Rock's schedule is similar to last year, he's gone til probably Survivor Series (although this year he might do Summerslam as well), and will be back essentially full time arounfd the Rumble until WM. That times up well with Scott's theory that Brock wins the belt, Rock wins the Rumble (I'm assuming), and they meet at Mania. I think Rock's proclaimation that he will be WWE champion again, coupled with Brock's return is what they meant when they said they planned to 'announce' the main event for WM 29 a year in advance as well.

    And Brock's contract has a cap, but there is an opportunity to negotiate some more in there if they feel the need to.

  38. I agree, there's some serious hypocrisy going on (I'm a little miffed I didn't bring it up, I'm trying to make it my thing!).

    But you could say that wrestling is about making the most money possible, and nothing else they can offer can approach the kind of business that would do.

    I don't know the exact facts but I don't think HHH was ever a huge money maker, and Hogan's WWE run was not great for business either.

    Plus, you could argue that all the extra exposure (and they ARE getting some serious mainstream pub right now) will result in more people seeing what the undercard guys have to offer. How many casual fans ordered WM and liked what they saw out of Punk?

    I think what we're seeing right now is the end of the Cena Era. It won't be a quick death, it'll take a couple years, and Rock/Brock and probably Taker/HHH will play a big role in helping it come to an end. It won't contain a heel turn (and I'm fine with that as long as Cena keeps working with guys like this), but it will lead to a new torchbearer(s).

  39. The thing is, you can't have Brock go over the ENTIRE roster, because there is then nobody left for him to fight (and put over) in the end, and makes the entire roster look worse. Have him go over the "old guard" of Cena, Orton, Show, Kane, Jericho, fine, but they HAVE to hold off on having him wrestle one of either Punk, Sheamus, or Bryan. That's your endgame: Brock goes over 99% of the roster, but at WM29, somebody new HAS to be positioned as the one guy that could potentially do the impossible.

    As for Rock, his title win doesn't even have to be at WM29 next year, it'd probably be better if it came at "Summerslam", with Rock then losing the title at "Survivor Series" to Lesnar. One more notch in Brock's belt, and there's the natural story of how it's the tenth anniversary of their last meeting.

    In the mean-time, maybe move Punk to "Smackdown" or something, make him the main focus of the show (he may be the champion on "Raw", but he's not the main focus with Cena, Rock, and Lesnar around), and keep him away from Brock. Punk then wins the "Rumble", and challenges Brock for the title at WM29. Hell, maybe Punk is the champion of "SD" by the time the "Rumble" rolls around, and he enters the match anyway; he wins, and we get the title-unification at "WM". It doesn't even have to be Punk, it could be Bryan or Sheamus (or some other dark horse), the important part is that the company HAS to pick one person to get behind as the guy that will face - and defeat - Lesnar at WM29, and then STICK WITH IT.

    Rock/Brock at WM29 doesn't do anything for anyone, especially if the entire roster is sacrificed to do so; I mean, really, making Brock the only star that matters is exactly the same as making Cena the only star that matters. Sure, Hogan and Austin may have been the clear #1 guys in their respective eras, but they also had a supporting cast of characters that were booked to be pretty damned close to being on their level; Hogan had Orndorff, Piper, Andre, Savage, and Warrior, while Austin had Bret, Rock, Trips, Foley, and Taker. Who does Cena have? Who would, in the given scenario, Brock have? It's better to build up five guys than just one. Yes, Rock did just beat Cena, which can be argued as being symbolic of Rock defeating the entire current roster, but being symbolic of it and actually doing it are two different things: Rock had ZERO interaction with the rest of the roster, so there's still some question as to whether or not anybody else may be able to do what Cena couldn't. Could Punk, Bryan, or Sheamus beat Rock? Possibly.

  40. They could so very easily create a Helluva year worth of programming if they wanted to. Allow CM Punk and Chris Jericho to blow off their feud at Extreme Rules in a No DQ match, then send Jericho into a summer feud with Randy Orton, a pairing that I don't believe we've seen before. Have CM Punk and Dolph Ziggler begin a longer program over the WWE Championship building between Over the Limit and Money in the Bank. John Cena and Brock Lesnar will begin escalating their feud over the course of the months in between, building to a major showdown between the two at Money in the Bank in June. Have Brock beat Cena, then Cena come out the next night and basically "give up the ghost", go into sulk mode about "not having it" anymore and basically walking out. Keep Cena off television between July and August while you build up Brock Lesnar going after CM Punk for the WWE Championship. Lesnar beats Punk and wins the title, only to be attacked after the match by a grittier, darker, '03-04 John Cena, who's found his edge again and is out for blood, so to speak.

    Have the Cena/Brock WWE Title match built up over the next five months, with Cena chasing the smug Lesnar across Hell's half acre in route to a massive WWE Championship match at Royal Rumble. Program CM Punk with Mark Henry to keep him busy, while utilizing Sheamus to help get guys like Christian, Wade Barrett, and maybe even someone like Kofi Kingston over, before returning the title to Daniel Bryan at the Royal Rumble thanks to interference from someone, possibly Wade Barrett. Have John Cena finally triumph and take the WWE Title off of Brock at the Rumble, and have CM Punk win the Rumble match itself.

    And then for WrestleMania, have Brock Lesnar start randomly showing up and destroying people left and right for several weeks, until finally as he goes to lay the boom on someone important... lights go out, and the Undertaker returns for your Holy Shit moment. Build to Undertaker/Lesnar in a street fight or No DQ Match at WrestleMania. John Cena meanwhile returns to Raw the night after WrestleMania, gloating about having returned to the top of the mountain and proclaiming "he's the man", only to be interrupted in a timely fashion by THE ROCK, who reminds Cena that of all the men he's vanquished, he has yet to defeat the Great One. Have CM Punk set his sights on Daniel Bryan in a feud designed in such a way as to address the fear of failure in both men. Punk needing to redeem his status as Best in the World with a title win over Bryan, with Daniel needing absolution by successfully defending his title against Punk for redemption from his 18-second loss. Then bring out Triple H to talk about how he's only got so much left in the tank, and wanting one more match, with him having to know who's better. Enter Shawn Michaels for the one-off.

    That's Rock/Cena II for the WWE Title, Punk/Bryan for the WHC in preferably an Iron Man Match, Lesnar/Undertaker in a match for the Streak, and Triple H/HBK in Triple H's retirement match. Supplement that with your big stars for the rest of the card. Maybe do something like this:

    WWE Championship
    John Cena (C) vs. The Rock

    No Disqualification Match for the Streak
    The Undertaker vs. Brock Lesnar

    World Heavyweight Championship Iron Man Match
    Daniel Bryan (C) vs. CM Punk

    The Retirement Match
    Triple H vs. Shawn Michaels

    #1 Contender's Six Pack Challenge
    Alberto Del Rio vs. Kane vs. Big Show vs. Mark Henry vs. Chris Jericho vs. Randy Orton

    Rey Mysterio vs. Sin Cara

    WWE Tag Team Championship Ladder Match
    Christian & The Miz (C) vs. R-Truth & Kofi Kingston vs. Epico & Primo vs. Santino Marella & Brodus Clay

    Wade Barrett vs. Sheamus

    WWE Intercontinental Championship
    Cody Rhodes (C) vs. Zack Ryder

    WWE Divas Championship [Dark Match]
    Beth Phoenix (C) vs. Kharma

  41. Jericho worked with Orton when he came back in 07. It sucked.

    Course everything babyface Chris Jericho did back then sucked, so it would probably be better now.

  42. You're definitely right that WWE is in the business of making money, but they should focus on making continually good money instead of a big pop once a year.  WWE does PPV's 12 times a year (at least).  Most of their numbers are less than they hope for, and there's a reason for that.  If they give us a reason to care about all of their current Superstars and make us want to see them, more people will probably pay to do that.  There's nothing wrong with bringing old guys in -- ESPECIALLY if they make the company money -- and there's nothing even wrong with having them win matches that they should win.  But if you spend a year sacrificing your entire main event roster for Brock Lesnar, only to build up to a match with The Rock, why on earth would anybody pay for the June PPV main evented by two of the guys Brock massacred?  When neither Brock or Rock are on that show?

  43. He's not the poster boy of this era.  It's Punk's era now.  It's time to job Cena out to the new guard.  I don't like that they're jobbing him out to Rock and Brock instead of to Punk, Bryan, Ziggler et al.

  44. Well, they are coming here to D.C. next week.  We're smarky.  I'm curious who bought the tickets though and whether there will be critical mass.

  45. the goal is Brock ploughs through Cena, Randy Orton, Sheamus, and CM
    Punk, wins the WWE title at Royal Rumble or earlier from whoever the
    unlucky sap holding it is, and drops the belt to the Rock at
    Wrestlemania in his last match on the way out.

    ...and then the Rock leaves again, this time as champ!

  46. YES! YES! YES! Exacitigly!

  47. I agree. I don't know if there has ever been an era where the past has been so unconditionally praised. The attitude era built itself on NOT being the old Hogan/Savage show. Now, between DVDs, special attraction Mania matches, and big splurges on old stars, the consistent message of the show is: WWE, where stars used to wrestle, and now occasionally show up!

    Remember when Brock crushed Hogan's spine and wiped Hogan's blood on his chest? Someone should be doing that to Brock, and it shouldn't be someone from the old guard.

  48. Aye, but the reversed roles would do a lot to improve it also. Orton as a face works better to cover his deficiencies in the ring. With Jericho as a heel, he can control the flow and pace of the match and get something better out of him.

  49. I know the landscape is totally different now, but it's not like Austin, The Rock, HHH and the rest of the "Attitude" guys got over because the elder generation did the job and passed the torch.  They pretty much got over by entertaining the crowds and feuding with each other.  People are either going to buy CM Punk as a top guy, or their not.  Brock laying down for Daniel Bryan isn't going to change the casual fan's mind about whether Bryan is a star.  

  50. Austin got over because Bret Hart put him over and Shawn put him over, Foley got over because Undertaker put him over, HHH got over because Mick Foley put him over.

    Yes, all of the names were over in their own right but they were certainly put over.

  51. Not bad, dude. Not bad.

    Don't know if it would work, to be honest. But, hey, I'd watch that!

  52. I guess I'm in the minority, but I got the feeling that that was it for The Undertaker. End of an Era? 20-0? Am I totally being a mark about this?

  53. This post calls for a new "Like x7" button, damnit!

  54. Not to pile on Harry hood but in WCW the only time the old guard put young guys over (Savage and Hogan putting over DDP and Goldberg) they made new stars. I'm fine with Rock going over Cena but he and Brock should put some guys over.

  55. This is the exact same thing that was happening 15 years ago when Hogan, Savage, Hall, Nash, and all those other guys went to WCW and everyone stopped watching WWE because all the guys they knew were in WCW and they didn't know or like the new guys.

    People like things that remind them of their youth. It's not just wrestling either. They make movies about the 80s and now 90s. Used to be the 60s and 70s cause they was the last generations youth. Look at how excited people get about fucking Betty White cause she was on the Golden Girls. It reminds people of their youth. Or what about when the molester Michael Jackson died? He's bigger than he's been in 30 years. People don't even care what they've done lately. Just the good memories that person or thing invokes.

    The Four Horsemen are a perfect example. How many times did people want them to get back together or make new versions? Shit, look at how excited people were at the Hall off Fame induction.

    It's the whole reason why WWE 24/7 or Classics or whatever it's called now is around. Sure some of the reason is to give the new fans a chance to see the history. But mainly its for the old people to remember the good old days.

    Plus when these guys leave for awhile and than come back its even more exciting. Look at when Hogan came back to WWE. It wasn't like people hadn't seen him at all. But they hadn't seen him in a wwe ring. They tried to use him as Hollywood Hogan at first but people wanted to see the red and yellow. Once "Real American" came on than he was over huge and it worked.

    Its the same thing with Brock and Rock. I think them being successful else where and still coming back definitely helps. But just the fact that it reminds people of the past is the biggest factor. The new guys just haven't been established long enough to be that over. I really think that kind of overness can only be gained by time. Punk and Bryan and whoever else will get there eventually but right now people want to see the guys they remember. In ten years those guys will be where Rock and Undertaker and Shawn and Brock and all the older guys are n
    With that being said I still think the end game should be someone putting over a younger talent. Whoever that is, Cena, or Punk (I highly doubt its Bryan). These guys like Rock and Brock are like the Tyson of old. A celebrity brought in so people can see the new crop of talent. It helps that they can actually work matches too.

    Rock left in his prime. He's a multiple time wwe champion. Brock even has more legit credittoo being a former ufc champ. So I don't think it hurts anyone bad enough that they can't recover (though Cena has lost quite a bit too much lately in pretty high profile matches but that's another story all together).

    So I think its really a win win for wwe. They could put new guys over, get the casual fan in, bring back the old fan and expose everyone to the new crop of stars and its not like the every day guys are losing to LT.

  56. "whether Lesnar can resist the temptation to tell Vince to go fuck himself sometime around Summerslam, that’s another matter."

    This is why I love Scott...


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