Hi Scott
I read online reports that WWE might want to try have Undertaker wrestle Cena next year at WrestleMania. I believe this is essentially a license for WWE to print money because fans are invested in the streak and Cena has, more often than not, been presented as an invincible superman. So fans would want to pay to either see if Cena can do the impossible and break the streak, or if Taker can overcome the most invincible superstar WWE has had since possibly the Hogan era in the 80's (unless you count Austin as invincible?). Do you agree with this assessment or not?
Well, he just lost to Rock, so obviously he’s far from invincible. And Austin did a crazy amount of jobs for the biggest superstar in history, by the way. He got beat several times by Undertaker, did a job for Kane, lost the World title to Mick Foley, laid down for HHH, tapped out to Kurt Angle, put over the Rock in his last match ever, and in general was very much a human being compared to the supermen of the 80s.
At any rate, I don’t think anyone ever believes that Undertaker is going to lose one of these matches, so it’s more just a matter of finding someone who fans want to see lose or at least who they think might have a fighting chance with him, and Cena certainly fits that bill either way.
I'd like to see Cena-Taker just because it's one of the few matchups we haven't been beaten over the head with.
ReplyDeleteI'd rather see CM Punk vs the Undertaker, if only because you could get some mileage out of Undertaker going evil and wanting to destroy Punk.
ReplyDeleteUndertaker hates Punk for a variety of reasons relating to the "summer of punk" (trying to leave the company with the belt and him successfully blackmailing HHH into giving him everything he wanted to come back) and as well as Undertaker still being angry at CM Punk for what he did to Jeff Hardy (mocking him about his drug addiction problems and driving him out of the WWE) and of course, Undertaker as an elitist jerk of a veteran wrestler who refuses to accept Punk and what he's accomplished and considers himself to be the real "best in the world".
Undertaker goes after Punk, announcing his belief that Punk and his "prima donna" antics during the SoP have "tainted" the belt and that Undertaker's going to beat him with it and retire as Champion, claiming that no one in the WWE is worthy of holding it after Punk did what he did. Punk in turn has to go after Undertaker (maybe retcon Undertaker being the man behind the conspiracy against Punk) and have Undertaker lose cleanly to Punk in the end to officially annoint Punk as top guy while Cena is turned heel or demoted to mid-card.
I believe last time we saw Taker v. Cena on PPV it was 2003, Cena was a heel and peed on a tombstone in a graveyard after a rap. Yeah, we're overdue for a rematch.
ReplyDeleteI think that this year, more than ever, there's thought that it could be it for the streak simply because Undertaker is now 20-0. He's got the nice round number, a "twenty-year unbeaten streak" is marketable as hell for future historical purposes, etc. If WWE spent the year building up someone like Sheamus as a major star (like, has him hold the world title for the entire year) and then books him against Taker at WM29, I would legitimately buy Sheamus going over to fully cement him as an upper-tier superstar.
ReplyDeleteI wrote out this scenario in another thread, but essentially, how you could book future Streak storylines is...
WM29: the Sheamus scenario as mentioned above. Just when you think Sheamus could actually win, UT wins and the Streak continues. Having the world title in the mix is important, though, since then it allows the MITB winner from earlier that night to immediately challenge Taker, creating 5-10 minutes of sheer terror from the fans and the viewers that the Streak will be ended in shocking fashion. UT ultimately wins, however, making him 22-0 after this event. He drops the world title at the April PPV and then goes on hiatus.
WM30: Here's where I would pit Taker against Cena. It's an "anniversary" Mania, so there's a hint of UT's retirement being the signature moment of this landmark card. But, 23-0.
WM31: If the Rock is still around and willing to wrestle, Rock vs. Undertaker. 24-0.
WM32: Just as a wrinkle, how about a tag team or a faction that's been running wild on WWE and the group as a whole challenges for the Streak? This forces UT to find partners, gives some young guys the rub of being part of his team and also creates some moments of drama as "the Streak could be on the line if someone else gets pinned." 25-0.
WM33: At 25-0 and another 'round number' achieved, you can redo the Sheamus storyline with another up-and-comer. By this point, frankly, I think it'll probably be absolutely it for Undertaker, given that he'll be over 50 and probably in even worse shape. The lighter schedule can only go so far.
Of course, it all ultimately comes down to Taker's health and how much longer he wants to keep wrestling. I suspect he'll stick to the 'one match per year' schedule so physically, he could keep the Streak going for a while. This year, for instance, he looked just fine against HHH despite the year off and his multitude of injuries.
Ok, if Cena-Taker happens i'd be almost 75 percent sure the streak will go belly up.
ReplyDeleteThe only guy I could ever buy coming in and beating Taker would be HBK.
ReplyDeleteMaybe I'm marking but it seems like the "shootish" promos going to WM had Taker selling Shawn as the GOAT way over Hunter.
(How could he not? 3 of UT's top 5 matches are with Shawn)
I'll give you the Cena angle right now. He loses. A LOT. He gets destroyed by Brock, he spends the whole year just trying to pick up a win and he can't quite get there. He loses and loses, and along the way, he starts to question his confidence, just like he did after Wrestlemania. Smiley Cena is gone. Not a heel turn, mind you; just a way to do the following - make him accessible to the fans who were turned off by the SuperCena act, and give the kids who support him a storyline where they can root for their hero's redemption. Finally, after he loses another high profile match at Summerslam, he starts to float the idea that he needs to do something BIG to get his mojo back, so to speak. And what's bigger than the Undertaker's streak? And here's the capper; have him win the Royal Rumble, and decline the title shot in favor of going after the biggest record he can take out, the only way to become Cena of old - beating the Deadman. The Rumble win gives him momentum, and for the first time in recent memory, the streak actually could be in jeopardy, because Cena winning is the actual logical end to the storyline, and he's John Cena, one of the few dudes who could legitimately end the streak.
ReplyDeleteThat's how I see it. A way to rehabilitate Cena's character, a storyline for Taker that he barely needs to be present for to get it over, and it keeps Cena out of the title picture and lets the title matches involve Rock, Brock, Punk, and Sheamus, or someone to be named later. (Let's just say Daniel Bryan, since that's the defacto way to get people to listen to anything these days.)
the problem with this storyline is that the only logical conclusion would be him ending the streak. which he won't.
ReplyDeleteHaving been defeated at the past two Wrestlemanias, i don't think anyone will seriously buy Cena as a threat to the streak. But, the match would be fresh and a great spectacle so i'm all for it. I just hope the rumors about Austin, Rock and Brock already being pencilled in for high profile matches at WM 29 aren't true. I'm all for big names from the past making the occasional appearance but to stack the card with them at the biggest show of the year will just make the current generation guys look like losers. Why not do Punk v Austin at Summerslam instead? Or Rock v Brock at a regular PPV which could really do with something to boost the buyrate?
ReplyDeleteImagine the Fukushima-level heat a finally-turned heel Cena would have if after beating the Undertaker at 'Mania (due to outside help from whomever, pick your stable), he gives him the ol' "you can't see me" bit with a big shit-eating smirk on his face while the ring fills with trash. Then over the next year, you've got instant feuds with whichever babyface (or legend) decides to rise up to challenge him, eventually leading to a big money match (say for the title) with Rock, Brock, Punk, whoever. This is less NWO and more original DX...
ReplyDeleteI like the match idea, but I actually favour the opposite approach of getting there; instead of Taker initiating it with a hatred of Punk, Punk should take his bitterness out on Taker.
ReplyDeleteFirst of all, what really got Punk over was that "I'm the best but the company isn't promoting me on the level" mentality that really put his promos into high-gear. The WWE should tap into that again. What better way to do that than to have Punk rail on the fact that he's finally hit the top of the card, yet he can't have his "Wrestlemania moment" with a legend?
So let's say the WWE pushes Rock-Cena II and that Punk calls out Austin, Austin's retired, etc etc. I think that Punk goes over the edge saying there's only one way to get the company to acknowledge him as equal with the legends and that's to do something so legendary it CAN'T be ignored i.e. end the streak. And then the usual psychological shenanigans to get Taker to take the bait of the match.
I know this is nitpicky, Scott, but Steve Austin is one of the biggest superstars in history, not the biggest superstar. Like it or not, that's Hogan.
ReplyDeleteI think it's pretty obvious what the WWE's "dream" WrestleMania 29 lineup is:
ReplyDeleteRock vs. Brock
Cena vs. Undertaker
Punk vs. Austin
And if they pull it off, they can charge whatever they want.
Of course, for the WWE's bottom line...it's more important they keep this momentum going over the summer. The past few years, the WWE has thrown away the post-WrestleMania buzz in weeks and sputtered through the summer. We forget how crappy the spring was last year because CM Punk swooped in and saved it.
I was going to wait until Bryanmania had died down a bit to mention this but how is it that Triple H and the Undertaker, with help from Shawn put on a classic put on a classic at Mania then the next night, not only do none of these guys get to come out and talk but the match is hardly mentioned. Wrestling is at its best when guy go out there and express genuine feelings and last monday was the perfect opportunity for that
ReplyDeleteAt this point I don't think the fans would boo The Undertaker.
ReplyDeleteThey should do the match, but they might as well turn Cena heel first. And I mean turn him into a vicious, remorseless heel, because he'll be booed like one when he wrestles The Undertaker.
ReplyDeleteActually per Vince McMahon's own admission, Austin made him the most money, was the biggest draw, and is the biggest and greatest superstar in history...I'd take Vince's view over anyone else...he has access to the bank account...
ReplyDeleteYou can quote that all day. Pretty sure Mark McGwire drew a lot of money in 1998, doesn't make him greater than Hank Aaron.
ReplyDeleteIn terms of cultural significance, Hogan has a far more lasting impact than Austin, so does Flair.
Hogan you can have but not Flair.
ReplyDeleteEveryone knows who Hulk Hogan is.
Everyone who has ever had a passing interest in wrestling knows who Austin is.
Wrestling fans know who Flair is.
I love naitch but Hogan, Austin & Rock (and maybe Andre) stand apart in terms of cultural significance.
Oh, I don't think the fans would boo Taker, if anything Punk might end up the heel regardless. But I think it would make him a big-time face in the long run because I could see him really putting the value of it over in the promos.
ReplyDeleteI agree with this, and furthermore, I think the Undertaker is done and will retire.
ReplyDeleteCena has lost quite a bit over the last year as well. I'm a lapsed fan for the last 7 years so I haven't seen much of Super Cena. So I'm not as tired of him as some people are and I really don't get the hatred.
ReplyDeleteQuick side note. Why does everyone on this board get so angry about the fact that Cena smiles alot? Why is that so bad? Isn't it supposed to mean that the character is cool under pressure? Like they say about a football player that is good in the clutch. "He's got ice water in his veins". He doesn't get overwhelmed by the magnitude of the moment. There are enough guys that scream and yell ( for example: EVERY OTHER GUY ON THE ROSTER) so it's nice to see someone do something different. Plus the fact that so many people hate him so damn much makes me like him more.
Besides it's not like he's Randy Orton. He was originally pushed because he was over not because Vince said he should be. And he generally always brings it in the big matches. Which he's had a lot of. Again unlike Orton who only has a good match when someone carries him to it. So basically my point is I dislike Randy Orton.
But back to Cena jobbing. He's pretty much lost every feud he's had since last Wrestlemania. He lost to Miz, he lost to Punk, and now he's lost to Rock. So if your gonna give anyone credit for doing jobs it should be Cena.
Plus I think Taker should do the job before he officially retires. He should put someone over before he goes out. I don't care who it is. (As long as it's not Randy Orton.) It's the right thing to do for the business. But than again he wouldn't have a 20 match winning streak at Wrestlemania if he cared about the business. I think Taker has done less jobs over his career than anyone else. Even Hogan and HHH.
I agree with stagger. Flair has never really done anything outside of wrestling. He has no main stream presence. Has he ever even been in a movie?
ReplyDeleteYeah, your marking. Unfortunately HBK just has never been big enough of a star. Cena has done way more business than HBK>
ReplyDeleteThe anti-smiling Cena thing baffles me as well (but not as much as people STILL bringing up "poopy jokes" even though he made the comment once, about 5 years ago). Like you said, we have so many guys that are either angry and yelling, or angry and speak slowly. Personally, I don't mind somebody who laughs off a situation. And to those that say he buries his opponents when he does that, I don't buy it either. The Rock made a career out of making fun of his opponents. And Triple H made a career out of being super serious but still burying his opponents in promos. He sorta reminds me of Shawn Michaels in that regard. He can be jokey and happy, but is serious when the big match comes.
ReplyDeleteJust this year alone you had your angry yelling babyface (Punk) and most people here called him a whining bully.
Also I think the only way they do end the streak is if they are looking to put some over huge, ala Hogan/Andre at Wrestlemania 3. Since everyone losses now a days this is the closest thing to Andre's "undefeated" streak from back than. Actually, I should say that because of the internet they can't sell an undefeated streak like Andre's because information flows much better. Since Andre wasn't really undefeated either but people just didn't know about it.
ReplyDeleteBut Taker is undefeated at Wrestlemania. So I think it would have to be the main event for the WWE title for it to really be worth it to end the streak.
And I'm sad to tell the Punk/Bryan fans but there is ZERO chance it is either of them. It would have to be a huge star that they want to place as one of the greatest of all time. And the only one going today that deserves that distinction is:
Zack Ryder
No, I'm totally lying. It's John Cena. He's the only current everyday star that has main stream cred. Rock, Brock, Austin, they could all do it but none of them are every day guys anymore.
I'll also add that Punk may be given the reins if Cena starts fading out to do other stuff. But he will be treated as a top guy much like Bret Hart was. Basically be treated like shit until the next REAL big star comes around. A guy Punk's size will never be treated as well as someone like Cena or Rock. Not in Vince's world.
You forgot to incorporate Zack Ryder into this storyline.
ReplyDeleteJust curious: people tend to point to Orton as being the only person who was a believable choice to end the streak. Why is this? Is it b/c of his Legend Killer gimmick at the time? Unless I'm mistaken, he was actually in hot water with WWE around that time, which is why he doesn't even appear on the cover for the WM 21 DVD (if you notice, all the major match pairings are represented, except instead of Taker/Orton, you've got Trish taking Orton' place). And IIRC, he wasn't even involved in any of the movie parodies, not even a cameo in the Taxi Driver one, which was like this year's 12 man tag: get a bunch of mid- and undercard wrestlers on the bill.
ReplyDeleteI'd say that HBK and HHH had the same if not a better chance of ending the streak than did Orton.
As a side note, remember the rumor that Dibiase, Jr was being groomed to end the streak ("my dad brought you in, and I'll take you out")?
If the rumors of Cena/Undertaker, Brock/Rock, and Austin/Punk are legit, then you might as well just take my wallet now. If it's Cena/Rock II, Brock/Undertaker, and Austin/Punk... I'll go take out a second mortgage if I have to.
ReplyDeleteYes. Because of his 'Legend Killer' gimmick and the rumors that Taker were retiring after WM21, it seemed logical for Taker to lose. It's also been confirmed since that Taker wanted Orton to take the streak, but Orton refused.
ReplyDeleteI think he had a lot better chance than HBK or HHH, because he was a new(er) guy who would have benefited a lot more in the long run from being the one to beat Taker at Mania than either one of them.
Yes. Because of his 'Legend Killer' gimmick and the rumors that Taker
ReplyDeletewere retiring after WM21, it seemed logical for Taker to lose. It's also
been confirmed since that Taker wanted Orton to take the streak, but
Orton refused.
Wow, I don't recall either the rumor or the confirmation.
I think there is no way Taker is ever losing his streak. I can't see Cena doing jobs at three Wrestlemanias in a row, but much more than that, I can't see them having Cena beat Taker either.
ReplyDeleteAlso, I question whether we'll see both Rock/Brock and Austin/Punk. Austin said that the reason he didn't agree to fight Punk at this year's Mania was because he "wasn't playing second fiddle to The Rock." But if they end up hyping up Rock/Brock as the main event next year, then that very thing is gonna happen wth Austin at WM29 anyway. (Cena/Taker may also be above it.)
I think the rumor got started because everyone knew he was leaving afterwards for knee surgery (or whatever it was) and there was a rumor that it could also be it for him.
ReplyDeleteKane and Orton have both said before that Taker wanted to give his streak up to them (and I think Taker may have said this as well) but they both didn't feel right taking it. (I assume the Kane victory would have been at WM14, definitely not WM20.)
the same way that most users here predicted that EVERYONE in Miami will be rooting for The Rock (when in reality it turned out to be more like something in between a 80:20 and 70:30)?
ReplyDeleteBy next year, the novelty of having Rock back will have worn off; Austin's return won't play second fiddle, even if it's booked that way, because the fans won't allow it to happen.
ReplyDeleteI dunno, if they have Cena go all the way back and then loses to Undertaker after all of this, maybe THIS will finally be the straw that causes Cena to snap and turn heel.
ReplyDeleteWhen was the last time UT faced a heel at WM, exactly? If it worked for HHH and HBK...
ReplyDeleteThe real money is in Cena versus Undertaker in an "I Quit Match". Cena can get pinned but his character would never say "I quit". Same with Undertaker.
ReplyDeleteIf they were thinking ahead, it would have made way more sense for Cena to go over Rock if they were going to have Cena challenge the streak next year. That way Cena can go in on the high of being a world-beater and look like more of a threat to Taker rather than on a down of 2 straight main-event losses.
ReplyDeleteThe way things went down, it makes more sense to go with the Cena/Rock II + Brock/UT combo, with Brock taking the title from Punk around Survivor Series, Rock winning it from Brock at the Rumble, and Cena challenging Rock for the title at WM off a Rumble win. (And yeah, those are rapid fire title changes, but with Brock and Rock's limited schedules and with the angle dictating both win the title at some point, they have to do it that way.) Cena goes over Rock at the Meadowlands, then Taker challenges Cena the next night for WM Hardcore Porn Edition (nyuck nyuck).
They've done a good job keeping these two separated for the most part. And after 9 years, it does seem like a "fresh" match.
ReplyDeleteThe original Wrestler with Verne Gagne from the 70's...
ReplyDelete