Hi Scott,
Pleased to rediscover your familiar name and postings online after returning to pro wrestling after 10 years or so. I was not surprised to find similar irksome booking to what I remember all those years back. I was wondering if you'd comment on the absurdity of the John Cena/Brock Lesnar brawl from RAW. While the brawl itself was captivating, the involvement of solid heels like Alberto Del Rio and Daniel Bryan in breaking it up was ridiculous. Why in the world would someone like Alberto Del Rio care if Cena & Lesnar are trying to to rip each other apart?
DO you think this booking further 'legitimizes' Lesnar and adds to his feud of Cena? If so, do you think it did so at the expense of heels like Del Rio and Bryan?
The idea is supposed to be that Lesnar TRANSCENDS the WWE because he's a real UFC fighter, so when he's beating on Cena the entire locker room is going to come out and Stand Up For WWE. Obviously you don't want to do that with, like, anyone else on the roster having a brawl, but absolutely for Lesnar you make an exception because you want to position him as a top guy above the other top guys. That being said, ratings did not bear that philosophy out, so this might get interesting very quickly if Extreme Rematches doesn't pop a big number.
Personally I'd love if Brock did nothing to the ratings/buyrates. I'm not interested at all in watching him treat the entire roster like bitches and then on his way out job to...another part-timer that treats the rest of the roster like bitches.
ReplyDeleteDoes anyone else suspect that Lesnar's potato wasn't an accident? It wouldn't be the first time we've seen the WWE put aside the worked nature of punching to give an angle extra heat or attention, Dolph Ziggler and Mrs. Shawn Michaels can both attest to that. The camera definitely wasn't shying away from Cena's mouth and he looked more than ready to sell his mush. I wouldn't be surprised if Cena agreed ahead of time to take a legit shot from Lesnar to really push their brawl over the top. It's also possible that Lesnar's worked punches are rusty and they decided to err on the side of too much rather than too little. Whatever it was, I imagine we'll be Cena's bloody smile replayed quite a few times over the next year as they continue to build Lesnar.
ReplyDeleteIts not really a job if you lose to Lesnar, its actually more of a rub.
ReplyDeleteThe only problem with the heels coming in is that Brock was presented basically as Johnny Ace's hired goon. If he was just Brock Lesnar being awesome & smashing stuff...then it would've made sense.
ReplyDeleteBut I always thought that pro wrestling logic dictated only the jobbiest jobbers came out because the guys have to break through 15 wrestlers to get back at each other.
It's no secret that Lesnar punches like a mule, that dude hits hard. You can see in the replay where he was holding up; but by some weird fluke, he connected just enough to pop Cena's lip. In the end, I think the WWE played it up because it was just such a perfect visual and actually helped Cena come off as more of a tough guy imo.
ReplyDeleteTo get smashed by a part-timer and left as an after thought as he goes on to his ONLY legitimate threat...ANOTHER part timer?
ReplyDeleteWhat rub did Cena get from losing to Rocky?
eh, personally, I just want to be entertained. So far, the Cena-Lesnar stuff has been fun in limited doses, i.e. no 20 minute promos (looking at you Rock, HHH, UT, HBK). This should give Jericho-Punk plenty of time to do their thing.
ReplyDeleteI swear, Punk better come out brawling at Xtreme Rulz. No more "chain wrestling". Jericho has done the most deplorable stuff he can do to you, time to come out swinging. I think this is what was missed from the WM match. You talk about my family? I'm putting you in a headlock!
Did we ever hear how long Jericho's extension was? He's got to be taking off by summer to make it to the big European music festivals right?
ReplyDeleteI agree though, Punk should fucking murder him. Chris should take the biggest bump of his career, this is the most evil he's EVER been and thus deserves the biggest ass kicked he's EVER gotten.
About a million dollars worth, give or take.
ReplyDeleteDon't give me that "Rock treats the roster like bitches" crap. He came back in the summer of 2002 SOLELY to put Brock Lesnar over. He put perennial jobber Hurricane Helms over, for God's sake. Yeah, he and Cena beat Miz and Truth. That's called the right booking decision.
ReplyDeleteOk, you're right, I shouldn't have insinuated the Rock will "treat" the rest of the roster like bitches, he'll just "make them look" like bitches by virtue of the booking that he will request.
ReplyDeleteCena's a bad example, because he doesn't need a rub either way. But like, a guy like, iunno, Daniel Bryan losing but not getting bug squashed by Lesnar would absolutely get a rub off of it.
ReplyDeleteMoney's a rub now? Very well, let's base everything on money. Fuck the booking, THE TRUTH IS as long as Zack Ryder's getting paid more than he ever has the fans should stop complaining about his burial. He's getting money, if you care about him just keep buying the shirt and stop worrying if he's getting a push/rub/wins.
ReplyDeleteI wish this was WCW. I'm sure the reaction to two very part-timers being put over the entire promotion in an effort to pop two buyrates a year apart from each other wouldn't have gotten shit on at all...seriously.
Well, and truth be told Cena's a bad example because at the end of all this...after probably another 18 months of SLOOOOW build Cena will eventually get the big win over Rocky after Rocky takes out Brock.
ReplyDeleteI will be absolutely shocked if they let a guy like Punk/Bryan look even remotely like they could win against Brock. I wouldn't even be shocked to see a handicap match of Punk/Bryan Vs. Brock just to unify the titles/make Brock look even more like an unstoppable monster.
The difference between WCW and WWE is that the part timers WCW brought in were WAY past their prime (physically and mentally). Rock and Brock can seemingly still go. Both are the same age as Cena give or take.
ReplyDeleteI agree with you, though I would submit that those part-timers WCW brought in WERE the same age as their main-eventers at the time.
ReplyDeleteI mean sure they were all older than Cena/Brock are now but they weren't any older or "more broken down" or anything than the guys that WERE full-timers like Hogan/Sting/Savage/DDP/Nash.
(I'm thinking specifically guys like Piper/Warrior coming in)
Again I agree with your point, just sayin.
We get it. You want CM Punk as the focal point of Raw and to be the new face of the company, and you resent Brock/Rock for blocking his path. Much like those of us clamoring for a Cena heel turn, you need to quit 'thinking like a mark' and come to the realization that it makes much more business sense to have safe, marketable, sponsor friendly guys like John Cena and The Rock as the flag bearers of the company than a wild card like Punk. The man was ready to walk away a year ago and only stayed cause of the biggest push of his career.
ReplyDeleteDaniel Bryan's another guy who has made noise about potentially leaving in the near future (3-5 years) to do something completely different with his life. Can you blame them for preferring Sheamus, cut from the same family friendly cloth as Cena and a better long term investment.
I don't believe that for a second. In VERY rare instances does somebody look great in losing. The example most people use is Bret Hart/Steve Austin, however the booking of that match seemed to show that the intention was to make Austin the star -- a bigger one than Hart. That most certainly would not be the intent with Lesnar/Bryan.
ReplyDeleteDaniel Bryan would get a much bigger rub out of, say, beating Sheamus clean than losing to Brock Lesnar in a competitive match.
I'm sure people will say your response was obnoxious but it's actually a good point. I said it during the WrestleMania build. We'd get one post talking about how everybody should be happy to get ANY spot whatsoever because with the Rock there, they're getting more money. Then the next post would talk about how it doesn't matter that Zack Ryder is being featured in the main event storyline on Raw and is featured on every Raw and PPV....he's being booked like a loser!
ReplyDeleteWhich one is it?
I think it happens a lot more than you're saying. We tend to focus on Austin cause it's just the *perfect* example (guy loses every match but comes out looking like a million bucks), but if we're just talking about having a guy look good but still lose, hell that happens a lot. Jeff Hardy/HHH is the closest thing to Austin in that it was an extended feud, but if when you consider one-off matches it's much more common. Jericho/Bryan from NXT is a good example. Sure, nothing came of it for Bryan but that's not the match's fault, it's the followup booking. Daniel Bryan looked better at the end of that match than he did at the beginning. Ryder/Swagger (where Ryder lost the title). Hardy/Taker ladder match from Raw. Angle/Benoit from Rumble 03. Cena/Umaga. HBK/Benjamin. Benoit/MVP (and Benoit pinned him with a headbutt!). And those are just off the top of my head.
ReplyDeleteI get your cynicism, I'm a Bryan fan too. But maybe I'm just such a Brock mark I see no shame in losing to him period, and lots of potential to make a guy look good.
Rest of roster should stop being bitches. Or, writing staff should stop making them look like bitches all the time.
ReplyDeleteWhat? When has Rock ever refused a job? If he makes them look like bitches, it's because he's infinitely more entertaining (to most fans, not here apparently) than them.
ReplyDeleteThere's never been a report of Rock demanding to go over anyone. Nor refusing a job. Nor refusing to work with anyone (except Shawn Michaels in 2001 or whenever it was Rock gave that interview).
For all the talk of how Piper never jobbed to Hogan, Hogan never jobbed to Piper either. Mr. Perfect never got the "big" win, but was as over as anybody in the early '90s.
ReplyDeleteSting became a sensation overnight by simply wrestling competitively with Ric Flair. The Rock never got over by beating top guys. After all, based on the earlier logic, the only way he could get any rub from Austin would have been by beating him, something he didn't actually manage (in a main event) until, what, 2003?
The match that made Mick Foley a household name (KOTR 98), he lost. The matches that made the Rock a household name (Summerslam 98, WM 15) were losses. Hell, Rocky's a great example. He's maybe the biggest star ever besides Hogan, and he almost always jobbed in the big matches (never had an extended title reign). It happens all the time. Jericho taking HHH to the limit in 2000 made him a bigger star than fluking wins over Rock and Austin in 2001 did, in my opinion.
It's funny, but when I was a kid, I always assumed that the suits like Patterson, Garea and Lanza got paid simply to run out and separate guys whenever they had a pull-apart brawl, not knowing that they worked actual full-time jobs in the back and stuff.
ReplyDeleteHired goon?
ReplyDeleteWhat? I said quite frankly that I just don't want part-timers going over the roster.
ReplyDeletePunk will never be the face, but I'd appreciate seeing him treated as least mildly in the same league as the "real top of the card".
I thought the Cena/Lesnar thing was an attempt to repeat all the attention they got way back in the day from the Tyson/Austin brawl. I thought it came off kinda weak as a result of that because for all Lesnar's strengths, no one in the history of sports has ever been as compelling as Tyson when he was crazy.
ReplyDeleteBrock's going to go over Cena and lose to Dwayne. Beat one stale, catchphrase spewing, pandering baby face lose to another. If that happens why care about the roster?
ReplyDeleteI see now why I was warned to not pay attention to your posts.
ReplyDeleteI thought it was kind of stupid that the locker room came out to pull apart Cena and Lesnar, but nobody did jack shit to help the freakin' WWE Champion CM Punk when Jericho was pouring beer all over him, while he was lying there helpless. Those two segments did not need to be on the same show.
ReplyDeleteI'm just trying to highlight some inconsistency on your part when it comes to judging the product. When it came to the Cena heel turn stuff you acted like a WWE shareholder, arguing it from a business sense. Your arguments were sound, but you belittled the other side for thinking like marks (I don't remember the exact wording but 'mark' was involved). But when it comes to Punk and his treatment you seem to put the mark hat on and ignore the business side of it.
ReplyDeletePersonally I prefer we all acted like marks and just like what we like, regardless of ratings, buyrates, merch sales, etc. I prefer a WWE that has Brock/Rock AND Punk, and if that means Punk doesn't get to headline as much (or has to job), I'm fine with it. And that's coming from a Punk mark too.
If need be, they could cover by saying that John Laurinitis ordered the wrestlers to go out in the former, and to stay back in the latter.
ReplyDeleteDo you really believe if the Rock jobbed out to the everybody on the roster, it would make those guys bigger stars?
ReplyDeleteWWE needs the Rock a helluva lot more than the Rock needs WWE. Any moron on the roster that complains about the Rock and who he beats simply doesnt understand business.
What they are doing with the Rock is pretty much the same thing they have always done to grow the business. Think all the way back to the very first WM, you had Mr T in a main event match. This was to drum up mainstream attention and it obviously worked. Same thing worked again with Tyson during WM 14 time period.
Thought it came across better because somebody actually got busted in the mouth.
ReplyDeleteWhen everybody says why would wrestlers want to pull apart Cena/Lesnar, my answer would be money. The wrestlers want these guys waiting for the PPV where they will benefit from the buyrate. Not really the truth but logically it makes sense.
ReplyDeleteYour argument is based on the idea that Rock/Brock being better than the business is *actually* better for the business.
ReplyDeleteThat remains to be seen.
Out to everybody? Of course not.
ReplyDeleteOut to someone besides Cena? Yes.
Tada.
Aint't the Undertaker a part-timer too? And he is beating everybody at Wrestlemania.
ReplyDeleteAnd speaking about part-timers: I think that many guys of the current roster could be even bigger stars, if we wouldn't be forced to watch them every week.
Example: Nash and Hall were in WCW until 92/93. They went to WWF and became relatively big stars. They came back to WCW in 1996 and suddenly were HUGE stars.
Would have they become big stars if they had stayed in WCW? I don't think so. When Rock left in 2002 he was not half the star, as when he came back in 2003, 2004 or last year.
If you are a part-time star, it does not mean, that you are worse than the rest, but you are better.
I was thinking of something similar actually. I don't agree with a lot of what Scott has been saying lately about how Brock/Rock should be booked as monsters that completely destroy everyone in the locker room, nor do I think that they should be the focal point of the promotion. I understand why their doing it I guess(though apparently that might not pan out of ratings and buy rates don't go up) but I still don't like.
ReplyDeleteAnd that's coming as a fan of both guys-I marked out just as loud as everyone else with Brock's arrival. I just rather see a slow burn and more focus on the Championship.
I really hope the rumors are not true and Lesnar will at least job to Cena (if not even to Punk as well).
ReplyDeletelast paragraph: bs. I am pretty sure that most of those who critize the usage of part timers in recent weeks obviously don't argue with them not being talented, over, ... or whatever but the argument that it makes no sense putting part timers who are only there on "special occasions" over the guys who will be there after those other guys are already gone. losing in a very decisive way most of the time doesn't give you the "rub" - it just makes you look like the loser.
ReplyDeleteIf the current roster would actually draw, they wouldn't have to bring back The Rock, Triple H, Brock Lesnar and Undertaker to get a decent PPV buyrate. In 2001 the stars from ten years ago were in the gimmick battle royal. In 2012 the stars from ten years ago were in the main events. There you go!
ReplyDeleteWherea I don't say, that they are not self guilty of the current state.
I see now why I was warned to not pay attention to your posts.
ReplyDeleteI was agreeing with you. My argument was more my distaste for face Rock (I was on Team Fuck-them-both by the end and while I can see the value in Rock beating Cena I only see it for him to give the rub to someone else). I think it's stupid to have one part-timer run roughshod over the audience only to be stopped by another part-timer.