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Assorted May-Per-View Countdown: WWF Judgment Day 2000

The Netcop Rant for WWF Judgment Day 2000

- As a reminder, or cheap plug depending on your point of view, there is also an AUDIO version of this currently available, featuring yours truly doing the spoken word interpretation for you illiterates out there. As a warning, I’ve been told I sound like a “soft rock DJ” by more than one person, but it’s still all good.  (With the switch to Blogger I’ve pretty much given up on my podcasting dreams.) 

- Live from Louisville, KY

- Your hosts are Jim Ross & Jerry Lawler.

- Neat opening bit to start as they list all the things that happen in one hour. Unless I missed it, I don’t think “In one hour Mark Madden eats 750 jelly donuts” was there.

- Vince offers the Regime a pep-talk as a way of reminding people of the matches for tonight. This segues into Gerald Brisco going for coffee and thus being forced to defend his Hardcore title all the way there and back throughout the show.  (I feel like Santino would be hilarious in the Crash Holly role today if the Hardcore title was still around.) 

- Opening match: Kurt Angle, Edge & Christian v. Too Cool & Rikishi Phatu.

For the Benefit of Those with Flash Photography (in Kentucky? Yeah right…), the pose tonight is “The Jug Band”, which in this case comes complete with instruments and silly teeth for Edge. As opposed to his normal-looking teeth? (Oh, man, the glory days of Edge & Christian.)  Kurt Angle has a new “menage-a-flag” pattern on his tights. Pier-six to start. Edge & Grandmaster Sexay start the match proper, with Edge taking an enzuigiri. Missile dropkick follows, and Scotty comes in for the double-team elbow. Scotty & Christian do a wrestling sequence that leads to a Scotty suplex. Funny spot as Sexay lies on the top rope to block a cross-corner whip that would hurt Scotty, but when Edge tries the same thing to protect Christian he gets hung up there. Grandmaster Sexay loses his pants, but manages to tag in Rikishi, who cleans house and gets caught briefly in the heel corner. Scotty comes in, but the Worm is stopped with a cheapshot. Angle controls with a suplex for two. Christian comes in and Scotty gets an over-the-shoulder powerbomb onto the top rope, ala Black Blood. Yeah, I know, 90% of you have no clue what I’m talking about there. (Black Blood was Billy Jack Haynes’ brief flirtation in WCW in 1991, doing a hooded executioner gimmick.)  Rikishi gets the hot tag and hits CHEEKS OF FIRE, then Kurt takes the Stinkyface. He tries the Rikishi Driver to finish, but the champs break it up and double-DDT Rikishi, which is no-sold. Edge spears him, however, and decides to mock the Worm. Big mistake, as Scotty retaliates with his the real Worm. Christian hits Rikishi with the ringbell in the meantime, but Sexay comes off the top with the Hip Hop Drop for the pin at 9:47. Good (and very HOT) opener. ***1/4

- Shawn Michaels cuts a quick promo and utters those words we never thought we’d hear: “Tonight, I’ll do that job”. Okay, so it’s in a different context, but it’s a start.  (Did Jimmy Korderas have to tape up his fists to get him out there to referee?) 

- European title match: Eddie Guerrero v. Perry Saturn v. Dean Malenko.

Saturn & Malenko hit the Decapitation move quickly, and generally look to be in cahoots. That ends quickly as Saturn turns on Malenko. Saturn pancakes Dean and press-slams Eddie. Guerrero escapes a suplex and lowblows both at once, then hits a rana on Dean, and one on Saturn. Malenko blocks a flying headscissors with a sideslam for two. Eddie gets a tornado DDT on Saturn for two. Dean ligerbombs Eddie for two. Reversal sequence gives Dean the Cloverleaf, but Saturn breaks it up. Eddie and Dean go upstairs, but Saturn drops Eddie on the top, then gets shoved off by Dean. Eddie heads back up and takes a gutbuster from the top. Saturn dumps Dean and splashes Eddie for two. Saturn gives Dean a Cloverleaf of his own, and Eddie breaks it up by using Saturn’s brainbuster on him, then Dean adds to the coolness by putting Saturn in the Rings of Saturn! Eddie breaks that up, and dumps Saturn. Dean suplexes Eddie and splashes him for two. All three are up and we get a triple german suplex, with one person suplexing the other two in the middle of their suplex. Wild. Chyna then trips up Dean, who falls on the LOADED ROSES OF DEATH (loaded with a lead pipe in this case) and Eddie hits an Oklahoma roll for the pin at 7:58. Great match with the right person going over. ***1/2  (Kind of weird that only three months after the Radicalz debut, they were already feuding with each other and going their separate ways.  Should have been able to milk that group for MONTHS.) 

- The Big Slow v. Shane McMahon.

Shane comes flying at him with the tope con hilo right off the bat, and that proves to be not terribly bright on his part, because the Show catches him and destroys him. Into the ring, where Show literally kicks his ass and looks to finish quickly, but the run-ins start with Bossman and T&A both inflicting some damage. Trish Stratus even contributes a low blow, but gets tossed out of the ring in dramatic fashion. Shane crawls to the entrance and gets tossed into it, bumping all the place. T&A attack, and all three men are able to beat the Show down with various plunder. Bull Buchanan adds to the attack, and Shane drops a speaker on Show’s leg, then breaks a gimmicked cinderblock over his head for the upset pin at 7:13. This was good enough for what it was, with some crazy bumps by Shane. ** I don’t see why yet another McMahon had to go over, though.  (Let it play out and see where it goes…) 

- Submission match, Intercontinental title: Chris Benoit v. Chris Jericho.

BRING ON CANADIAN VIOLENCE! Slugfest to start. Jericho gets a bulldog and chops away. Jericho goes into a Fujiwara armbar, and they trade tombstone reversals until Benoit hits a shoulderbreaker off it. Benoit hits a diving headbutt onto Jericho’s shoulder and stretches him, thus setting the trend for the match with the shoulder injury. Jericho escapes and tries the Walls of Jericho, but Benoit flips out of it and goes to the apron. Jericho follows with the springboard dropkick and they brawl on the floor. Jericho goes to the stairs as Benoit keeps on the shoulder. Jericho comes back with a kneebreaker on those stairs. Back in the ring, Jericho gets the double-underhook backbreaker and we do some meat-chopping. Jericho’s blind charge misses and he hurts his shoulder further. Benoit rams the shoulder into an exposed turnbuckle twice and works it with an armbar. More chops. Snap suplex and keepdrop to the shoulder follow. A short-arm clothesline leads to a vicious cross-armbreaker (called a “fujiwara armbar” by JR incorrectly). Jericho makes the ropes. Benoit charges and hits the turnbuckle knee-first, and Jericho takes some shots at the injured knee and pulls off the knee-brace, using it as a weapon. Figure-four is attempted and countered, so Jericho dropkicks the knee and Lionsaults him. Jericho then pulls out his own version of the Tarantula! Benoit fights out, and eventually works to the triple suplex, which is then countered into the Walls of Jericho. Benoit escapes by nailing him with the knee brace, then slaps on the Crippler Crossface. Jericho fights out twice, but Benoit subtly moves the arm down to the throat on the third try at it, and Jericho is choked out at 13:27, leaving the title with Benoit, who now looks like even more of a bad-ass with a finisher that can nearly kill people. (Um…yeah.  I’m gonna go be somewhere else now.)  Hella stiff match here, too. ****1/2  (Way too high.  They had much better matches later on.) 

- Table match: The Dudley Boyz v. Smoke & Ashes.

D-Von beats on Dogg for a while, then it turns into a formulaic tag match wit D-Von as face-in-peril. Nothing of note happens until Buh-Buh gets the hot tag and drops both D-Xers with an atomic bomb and a samoan drop. We head to the floor, where a brawl erupts and Road Dogg puts D-Von through a table with a pumphandle slam for the first “elimination”. Back in the ring, Buh Buh powerbombs X-Pac through a table to even it up. The ref then goes through a table to bump him. 3D on Road Dogg looks to finish, but the ref is of course out. They try to put Tori through, but Gerald Brisco stops them, and X-Pac hits the X-Factor on Buh Buh, through the table, for the win at 10:55. This was exactly as good as I and everyone else thought it would be. **

- Iron Man match, WWF title: The Rock v. HHH.

Make or break time, kids. HHH sends the Regime back to the dressing room, because he wants to do this himself.

- First fall: Staredown to start. Rock hits the headlock and they fight over that for a while. Rock gets a pair of two-counts of rollups and HHH bails. Back to the headlock. HHH breaks and works the arm. Single-arm DDT gets two. Back to the arm. Rock gets a Rock Bottom out of nowhere at 11 minutes for the pin. 1-0 Rock.

- Second fall: They brawl outside. HHH drops Rock on the railing, but charges and hits his knee on the railing. Rock works the knee on the floor, dropping it on the stairs. Back in, Rock kicks at the knee, and applies a figure-four, once which is thankfully 1000% better than the one he busted out on Smackdown. (Rock is awesomely terrible at submission wrestling.  Has the guy managed to get ONE submission move right on a regular basis?)  It gets a few two-counts. HHH reverses and they brawl into the crowd. Back in with 20 minutes gone, HHH drops a pair of elbows for two. He keeps trying for the pin. I *love* that spot, especially in the context of a long match. HHH dumps Rock to the floor, then back in for a Pedigree and the pin to even it up. 1-1 tie.

- Third fall: The Rock is still groggy, so HHH small packages him for the pin. 2-1 HHH. Great spot.

- Fourth fall: Rock bails to recover and they brawl at the entrance. Back in, Rock tries a spinebuster, but that’s reversed to a facebuster and a piledriver for ANOTHER HHH pin. 3-1 HHH.

- Fifth fall: HHH goes up top and gets slammed off, and Rock busts out La Magistral for two. Whoa! Moveset, baby! HHH hits a high knee for two. Sleeper follows. Rock fights out and hits a belly-to-belly, then a botched floatover DDT for the pin. 3-2 HHH.

- Sixth fall: Back to the floor for more brawling. HHH grabs a chair and wallops Rock in the ring, drawing a DQ. 3-3 tie.

- Seventh fall: Rock is out cold, so HHH calmly pins him. 4-3 HHH, and another great bit of booking there.  (Yup, giving up the fall to make another fall, but one that hurts Rock WAY more than it hurts HHH.) 

- Eighth fall: 15 minutes left, so HHH goes to the sleeper again. And it WORKS! 5-3 HHH. Man, what a well-booked match this is, with all sorts of finishes that you don’t see everyday.  (Ugh, that was the start of HHH’s Main Event Sleeper spot.  Even he couldn’t get that one over.) 

- Ninth fall: HHH & Shawn get into a fight, allowing Rock to come back. HHH takes a wicked bump over the top onto the cameraman, and they fight on the floor. Back in, HHH gets two. Rock superplexes him for a double-KO spot. He rolls over for two. Back to the floor, Rock slingshots HHH into the ringpost, but gets whipped into the stairs. Over to the announce table, where HHH tries a Rock Bottom of his own, but Rock reverses and Pedigrees HHH! And the table doesn’t break…OUCH! HHH gets counted out. 5-4 HHH.

- Tenth fall: 4 minutes to go, the McMahons make their return en masse. Rock takes them all out as they come, People’s Elbow, goodbye. 5-5 tie.

- Deciding fall: 2 minutes left, and all of D-X charges the ring and attacks, but the nursery rhyme video plays on the Titan-tron, and the Undertaker returns! The crowd goes apeshit as he chokeslams everything in sight (with Shawn having been bumped onto the floor) as time expires…but Shawn recovers, calls for one last DQ at the bell, and HHH wins the match 6-5 to win the WWF title for a fourth time. Could’ve lived without the finish, but the match was the best old-school WRESTLING MATCH I’ve seen since the 80s. HHH is God. ****3/4  (I have since regretted making that statement.) 

The Bottom Line:

I freely eat my words…I thought that HHH and Rock didn’t have the stamina, selling or moveset to pull this puppy off, but they did and they did it with mustard on top. 58 minutes of all-out busting ass, including some never-seen moves from them, awesome effort, and the only black mark being a goofy ending that kind of disrupted the flow of the match. Still, this is one of the best pure wrestling shows you’ll ever see, featuring nearly 90 minutes of sheer workrate in the form of the Euro title, the I-C title, and the WWF title. Who says wrestling doesn’t matter?

Thumbs way up for one of the best wrestling shows I’ve ever seen.  (That’s pretty strong praise for a show I can’t even remember now, but 2000 was a hell of a year for PPV in the WWF regardless, and this was one of the strongest entries.  Sadly it’s never been released on DVD.) 

Comments

  1. "As a warning, I’ve been told I sound like a “soft rock DJ” by more than one person, but it’s still all good.  (With the switch to Blogger I’ve pretty much given up on my podcasting dreams.)   "S'all good. There are so many podcasts now, it seems to be the new thing. And most were not classically trained,  sounding like a soft rock DJ would be a great compliment to some of themThe last line of the last match in the original rant doesnt really do it for me; saying that was the best pure wrestling match in over 10 years. Only cause I recall Bret vs. Owen getting ***** and being basically a classic wrestling match in both their WM and SS matches. But I can see how Rock vs. HHH for 60 min and multiple falls was pretty mindblowing when it happened.

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  2. I don't know why you would regret saying what you said, it was a great match. Over-exaggerated a bit, sure, but I don't think anyone will hold it against you. *looks down* Oh. Wait.

    One of the best non-big-4 PPVs WWE ever did, although I haven't seen that Rock/HHH match in years. Probably should, I preferred it over their Backlash match at the time I watched it.

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  3. This Iron Man match is far better than the Hart vs Michaels one because it features drama due the inclusions of falls. I agree with Scott that the ending is a little overbooked, but its just such an amazing match. 

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  4. I heard one of the old podcasts (or whatever we called them back then) and he didn't sound like a soft rock DJ, he sounded like the most Canadian guy you've ever heard. Think of comedians that make fun of Canadians with all the "oots and aboots, eh" and you've got the idea.

    Love the Ironman match, in fact I think it's only good one I've ever seen.

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  5. Has this iron man match really never made its way onto an official WWE DVD? 

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  6. you didn't like Lesnar vs. Angle or you didn't see it?

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  7. Great show! I don't necessarily think you rated the Submission match "way too high" I do think it was criminally short though. Top to bottom a fantastic show.

    E&C&K vs. Too Cool- ***1/4 Hot opener, with a funny 5 second pose. 

    Perry Saturn vs. Eddie Guerrero vs. Dean Malenko- ***1/4

    Big Show vs. Shane McMahon- ** Nice little match. Shane busted his ass and took a good beating.

    Chris Benoit vs. Chris Jericho- ****1/4 Awesome though terribly short. Another great addition in a string of great matches for these two.

    Tables match- *1/2

    Triple H vs. The Rock- ***** These two had scary awesome chemistry, and the booking, action, pacing, and drama was off the page. I actually don't mind the finish so it gets the full monty.

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  8.  I absolutely love that main event. Everyone can claim the Bret vs Shawn Iron Man Match is one of the greatest matches of all time, or whatever, but it's like watching paint dry in slow motion compared to this match. And I still remember marking out like crazy for the finish as if it happened yesterday. It was just SO cool seeing Undertaker return in a new gimmick, and everyone involved couldn't have timed the finish better - with HBK recovering as Taker chokeslams HHH with literally seconds remaining to disqualify Rock and give HHH the win.

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  9. Comparing Rock/HHH to Bret/Shawn is like comparing Tom Brady to Bart Starr, or Michael Jordan to Bill Russell. 2 different eras and 2 completely different approaches to the game.

    They're both great matches, just in different ways.

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  10. 2000 gave us a shit-ton of PPVs that hold up today: Rumble, No Way Out, Backlash, this, Fully Loaded, Summerslam, and No Mercy. Did any other year have this many "thumbs way up" shows, with possible challengers in 2001 and 2005 (oddly enough)?

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  11. Can't believe this show isn't for sale in the US and Canada! I guess I'm lucky for living in Europe now ;)

    http://www.silvervision.co.uk/products/Judgment-Day-2000-Fully-Loaded-2000-DVD-2-Discs.html 

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  12. As good as the booking was in that HHH/Rock match, I hated all the stalling they did. At least seven or eight times, they spilled out of the ring and did a shambling brawl to fill up time. Granted, that could be seen as better than the "perfunctory and meaningless technical exhibition" that Bret & Shawn did, but I digs me some technical wrestling, even if it doesn't lead to anything.

    Plus, 96% of the offense of both guys as just punches and kicks. It's a good match all things considered (VERY well booked), but after seeing it once, I had no desire to see it again.

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  13. "leaving the title with Benoit, who now looks like even more of a bad-ass with a finisher that can nearly kill people."

    I love shoot comments that aren't supposed to be shoot comments.

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  14. IMO it's a fantastic match.  I never felt the rest periods and it felt like every part of the match mattered.

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  15. Seems like there are enough Iron Man matches out there now to fill up a dvd. Surprised we haven't got one yet.

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  16. Probably some kind of licensing issue with Black Sabbath.

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  17. I remember reading Wrestling's Made Men, and in the back it says something like "Yes, he did at one point say "HHH is God" but has since regretted it ever since HHH thought the same thing of himself"

    and since I'm a big fan of "where the fuck did this happen?" sort of mystery solving, I was very happy to find it while reading old 2000 reviews from 411mania at 2am about a year or two ago. 

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  18.  For me 2002 comes close. Ok, the ratings and buyrates were down, the stories were not that great, the heat was not that big, but the cards were loaded with megastars from the beginning to the end.

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  19. I never really got into the main event like some people did. It was well executed but that kind of style for an hour just didn't do it for me. I mainly only remember this one for being the first time I can ever remember the sleeper hold/ "ref drops your arm once, twice, and.." gimmick actually ending in the arm dropping a third time and getting the submission. Until years later when it happened on The Ultimate Fighter.

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  20. This is one of the things I miss about this era. These days, when WWE delivers a potentially interesting storyline or idea, we're always skeptical that they're going screw it up because they generally do. In 2000, the company would sometimes come up with an idea that we'd think would not work at all, but it would usually surpass expectations and be a pleasant surprise.

    Take this Iron Man match, for example. As great as Rock and HHH were at the time, many people thought that letting them go an entire hour might turn out to be a disaster and figured they would have to book a dozen run-ins throughout the match in order to maintain interest. But in the end, they would up delivering a ****3/4 classic which didn't even need any run-ins until the last few minutes.

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  21. What are some good wrestling podcast? I heard good things of the Colt Cabana one, but i never really gotten into the indie scene and barely know who he is, so I don't know if that would work for me.

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  22. I can vividly remember when Rocky/Triple H was announced as an Iron Man Match and everyone (at least my friends & whoever I was reading at the time) went crazy because they thought they were going to stink up the joint.

    Instead, they put on one of my favorite matches of all-time. It was so good that i STILL hate the Undertaker run-in with a passion. Like it angers me to no end. 59:30 of pure greatness and 30 seconds of bullshit.

    I really wanted the Undertaker to go away forever in 2000. One of the few lowlights in the year for the WWF.

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  23. Also, the opener is here is like the defintion of a perfect opener. Fun match. Gets the crowd involved. Good pace. Great heat. Every show should start like that. Though not every opener can feature 3 future World champs....on one team.

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  24. The Bret/Shawn iron man match was great...for the last 10 minutes or so. But I agree other then that the rest was tough to sit through.

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  25. Yeah, except today people would completely ignore the fact that it was a great match.  Instead they'd harp on the fact that Triple H won and that the Undertaker interfered.

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  26. Yeah, I agree.  I do enjoy the match because of the good booking, but one hallmark of this era is all of the sloppy outside the ring brawling. 

    A lot of these matches are 30-40 minutes long but it seems like half of that time ends up taking place outside the ring and I always find it takes me out of the flow of the match.  I agree that it is a personal preference -- I'd just rather have two guys in the ring, working the holds for the same reasons you mentioned.  There is just no real tension once it's outside the ring -- you instantly know if both guys are out there that there is not even a remote possibility that the match will end -- it's basically a break period.  Once the action spills outside the ring and we get all these "let me drag you by the hair all over the place spots, it's like an instant-forward to me.

    That and watching guys setting up ridiculously complicated table spots.

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  27. I think unfortunately we are getting closer and closer.

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  28. I think the last twenty minutes or so are pretty great, that's when it really kicks into gear.

    Here is something I've wondered -- for the people that don't like the WM 12 Iron Man match -- what do you think about the Steamboat/Flair 45 minute COTC match?

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  29. it's the 2000 edition of Shawn Michaels vs. Mankind. fantastic match, but below par ending.

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  30. same here. I think "regular" submissions (and pinfalls!) should happen much more often. as I wrote on this blog before: how can I take the Randy Ortons pinfall attempt after the second rope ddt seriously if he never beat ANYBODY, not even some under- or midcard guys, with it?

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  31. technically those are not "real" dvd release, since they transfered those from the vhs masters, often resulting in a lot less quality picture and sound than the "real" dvds.

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  32. I think you are both talking about something very different. I guess Justin was referring more to the match quality, right?

    btw: maybe it's just personal preference, but I think 1992 also had amazing ppvs.

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  33. I thought the second thirty minutes were pretty terrific. but the foregone conclusion (come on, it was obvious to everyone that HBK would win) hurt that match a lot. instead of a 0-0 draw it should have been Bret Hart getting the first fall... to add at least a bit of suspense. then have Michaels catch up and do the same finish.

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  34. I'm fairly sure one reason that the Iron Man match has never been put on dvd is because some kid got injured when HHH/Rock went into the crowd and they threatened to sue the company over it.

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  35. yea i can see at least miz & christian curtain jerking realllll soon. Christ the RAW elimination chamber started that ppv right?

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  36. If you fued with someone for 4 years, its gonna click eventually, if they have the drive mobility and the platform to showcase their talents. They were put in position to carry the company in a few years in 96... by 98 they were on the way. By 2000 they have 4 star matches on ppv damn near every time out.

    The 96 matches were the SHITS...
    The 98 matches were better.
    the 2000 matches were the SHIT.

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  37. im sure bryan/punk will get one sooner or later.

    Orton and Cena got one in 08 or 09? With Orton trying to kill Cena with pyro...

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  38.  No blurring. That's an improvement in quality from anything the WWE can put out.

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  39. Christopher HirschMay 30, 2012 at 8:46 AM

    I hated the booking of Bret/Shawn having no pinfalls, but loved the realistic booking of Triple H/Rock, where Triple H would sacrifice a fall to gain 2 falls, etc.

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  40. Christopher HirschMay 30, 2012 at 8:46 AM

    Radicalz did eventually get back together but then broke up a few months after.

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  41. So I googled this, and its apparently a recent development(as recent as 2011 was anyways)

    http://www.wave3.com/story/13806757/kentuckiana-teen-talks-about-lawsuit-naming-wwes-biggest-stars

    From the description, it doesn't really sound like it was the WWE's fault. The kid was standing on his chair when Rock/HHH spilled into the crowd. People moved back, and when they did so, a woman tripped and fell on top of him.

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  42.   "(Kind of weird that only three months after the Radicalz
    debut, they were already feuding with each other and going their
    separate ways.  Should have been able to milk that group for MONTHS.)"Eddie was just on a whole different level than the rest of the Radicalz at the time. He was pretty much instantly over from his debut and the mamacita gimmick with Chyna was ready to fuel him for main event stardom before real life problems got in the way. Dean was retiring shortly and Benoit and Saturn were both strong enough to go into singles on their own, so it makes sense to me.

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  43. Why are one of the Basham Brothers trying to extort money from WWE? :oP

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  44. Threadjack but sort of relevant since this is a PPV thread:

    WWE to start using PPV's as builds to TV, and not vice versa...

    http://www.411mania.com/wrestling/news/240323/WWE-Changing-Focus-to-TV-Ratings-Over-PPV-Buys.htm

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  45. Swagger & Ziggler v. The Miz & Alberto Del Rio

    Boom. Four world champions.

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  46. Everyone can claim the Bret vs Shawn Iron Man Match is one of the greatest matches of all tim

    No one claims that.

    Except probably Bret, of course.

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  47. If this is true, mother of god is it dumb. 

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  48. The dead WM crowd didn't help. I think the match would have gone off better in New York, Chicago or Toronto.

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  49. I'm fine with it. Maybe they'll actually make Raw interesting.

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  50. This. Lesnar/Angle is like this match on speed and with a better finish.

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  51. The Rock is the worst-booked top star in wrestling history (well, maybe other than Sting), and this match is a prime example.

    Rock gets the first fall, great. From then on ...
    Triple H, the heel, gets THREE CONSECUTIVE CLEAN FALLS.
    Rock wins a fall by DQ.
    Triple H gets two straight falls, including a sleeper.
    Rock, the MAIN FACE IN THE COMPANY, wins the next fall by COUNTOUT.

    If this same match took place a couple years later, people would be all over that booking. Great match, though.

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  52.  They want us to pay to see them build up a show we can watch for free? Sounds brilliant. 

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  53. Yeah that's a good point.  What is it about Southern California wrestling/ sports crowds?  It seems like they are often pretty dead for such a big market. 

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  54. Sure, but nobody's buying the PPVs anyway.

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  55.  HHH/Rock was right in the middle of the "wins and losses aren't everything" era, so for the sake of putting on an entertaining match they allowed multiple falls to happen. I can't imagine Bret/Shawn being able to do something like that. Bret gets the first fall? Then it looks like Bret's the better man. Shawn gets the first fall and Bret wins the next three? Then Shawn looks like a fluke and Bret can solidly beat him. Plus Shawn scoring a pin on him early in the match kind of ruins the suspense as to whether or not he can actually beat Bret Hart (who'd always beaten him in the past).

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  56. Yeah the no blurring is nice, but the Silvervision releases have a ton of issues in general, although there are some stellar discs in the line. 

    Many of them have awful video transfers, especially the earlier ones, with even softer video than the original VHS release.  Many of them have screwed up sound too -- even in comparison to the original VHS release and especially compared to the WWE HV DVDs.

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  57.  I just listen to Wrestling Observer Radio w/ Dave & Bryan and the Place to be Podcast right now. Theyre both good in their own different ways. Theres worse wrestling podcasts out there than these two.

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  58. Christopher HirschMay 30, 2012 at 10:41 AM

    Saturn never really got over in WWE, I guess Moppy was moderately funny for about 5 seconds. I just remember him being a heatless heel that held the European or maybe it was the Interncontinental championship for far too long.

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  59. Southern_DiscomfortMay 30, 2012 at 10:45 AM

     As a broke man, I am behind this 100%.

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  60.  SoCal has great weather , all kinds of different sports and activities, and movies / movie stars. The sports fans are way laid back for pretty much every sport, its been that way for a while.

    I've been to Angels, Padres, and Lakers games where no one in my section was much into the game. Although the Angels are much better now and have some good fans they are still way laid back compared to other sports markets.

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  61. Rock was usually booked to look like a chump to HHH. That's just typical Cerebral Assassining.

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  62.  Orton and Cena had an Iron Man match? Makes sense cause theyve fought so many times but I had no idea they had an Iron Man.

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  63. Wasn't this the theory during much of the attitude era as well? I'm doubting it means we'll get a lot of 30 minute ****+ matches on Raw so it probably won't mean much change, in actuality.

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  64. Well, Moppy was punishment for beating the hell out of that jobber, so he did some of that himself. Still, too bad he never recovered.

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  65. Yeah, and he only sued recently, so that doesn't make total sense. I'm guessing it's because it's tough to find room for it on a DVD. Add in a hype video (which was a AWESOME) entrances and after math and that match alone will take up half of a 3 hr. disc. Plus, don't they sorta avoid putting Biker Taker on DVDs, when possible?

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  66. The party line, which I happen to agree with, is that the ridiculous ending of Mankind/HBK fits with the insane feeling of the match. Chaotic match ends in chaos, essentially. In this case, a 'Taker run-in doesn't fit the story nearly as well.

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  67. Well, the Punk/Bryan thing is going pretty well. Even with the inclusion of Kane. But beyond that...

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  68. I marked out big time when Hogan's arm dropped 3x via Lesnar's bearhug. First time I had ever seen that w/out reading about it beforehand.

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  69. I mentioned this above, but I'm guessing it'll be tough to make that work. A standard DVD holds about 3 hrs of content, so a 60 minute ironman match will take up at least half the DVD once you include hype videos, entrances, aftermath, etc. Means you're going to end up with a 4-disc set if you want more than just a few matches, and WWE doesn't seem to do those. Perhaps as Blu-Ray becomes the more purchased media and more matches can be fit on a single disc we'll see it.

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  70. Or Marvel. Or the Triathlon people. I'm actually guessing WWE could claim their product is distinctly unique from those others (i.e. nobody will confuse them) and thus be able to legally get away with an IronMan compilation.

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  71. Didn't see it.

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  72. Personally, I'll still take it over youtube quality or blurring/music changes/deleting Jesse Ventura from history.

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  73. 2004 (late '03?) also kicked ass because of the SD6. Possibly the best sustained run any wrestling show has ever gone on, IMO.

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  74. But why not Bret wins the first, HBK wins two in a row, Bret wins the last one? Tied 2-2, HBK didn't pin him first but won two in a row to prove he's on par and now it's a 2-2 tie going into overtime. I don't get the logic that HBK pinning Bret for the first time in the middle of an IM match would be anticlimactic. If they're booked evenly throughout then he still hasn't won the match and he still hasn't proven he's a better wrestler until the very end.

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  75. And don't forget. The next month at the King of the Ring, Rock got the title back by pinning VINCE MCMAHON!!!

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  76. TNA adopted this philosophy and now most of their PPVs do less than 10,000 buys... so a fine move to copy.

    God, this company is turning into WCW.

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  77. Hogan jobbed to a bearhug? How the hell did they get him to agree to that?

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  78. ...and yet Rock's a legitimate star outside the wrestling industry while Hunter's fandom is still only relegated to the wrestling community.  Sometimes karma works.

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  79.  It was the blow off of their best of infinity series. I think pretty much the only thing people remember from it is is Orton trying to blow Cena up.

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  80. I...I don't even have words to describe how insane this logic is.  The people BUYING your PPV are already watching Raw and Smackdown for FREE.

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  81. Which is strange.  Saturn was always crazy over in WCW once he turned on Raven.

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  82. Some woman in the audience tripped and fell on a kid, and they're attempting to deem it "assault of a 7-year-old". I mean, I'd be pissed too if somebody fell on my kid, but I'd understand that there was no malicious intent.

    Further, he spent the next ten years playing baseball, football, and racing stock-cars, but are now claiming that WWE "stole his childhood".

    Why can't we legally shoot these people in the face?

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  83. I imagine if they ever do a Rock/HHH Greatest Rivalries DVD, it'll end up on there.  Of course, I'm more interested in them doing that DVD just see the kind of passive-aggressive sniping the two do towards each other in the interview.

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  84. Not an iron man match but Cena and Shawn went for 56 mins on April 23, 2007 on an episode of Monday Night Raw taped in London, England. 

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  85. Hogan was in a VERY giving mood in 2002.

    Seriously, he was one of the best parts of the program for a while, being used exactly how he should. His tag-title run with Edge was a perfect example of what to do with the older stars.

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  86. To be fair, at this point in Trips' career, he WAS God.

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  87. Wasn't a bad match, actually, if you can deal with the "comedic brawl" type of style.

    Orton trying to kill Cena with the pyro had me laughing my ass off.

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  88. I'm the opposite.  I loved the idea that Shawn and Bret were so good that neither man could find a way to beat the other.  Conversely, while I like Rock/HHH, the booking comes across as goofy at times.  Someone pointed out how poorly the Rock was booked in this match, never scoring a clean pinfall over Hunter in the entire match while almost all of the H's falls were legit.

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  89. Damn, a two-pack of "Judgment Day" and "Fully Loaded".

    Go get that right away!

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  90. Orton and Cena/HHH would argue otherwise.  I can't think of any match Orton has had with either man that turned out good, and they've both feuded with him off and on since the mid '00s.

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  91.  Mankind / Shawn was worse because it really felt more like they just didn't have any idea how to end it.

    This was Undertaker coming back to try and even the odds, and screwing up by getting Rock DQ'd.  It made more sense within the context of the match.

    If they were smart, they'd have turned that into a quick Rock / Taker program while HHH defended against Jericho, before blowing everything off at SummerSlam.  You could still have done Benoit / Rock and Jericho / HHH at Fully Loaded, just with Benoit / Rock being for a title shot against the winner of the LMS match.

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  92. Simple: "We'll let you be the first guy to beat Brock."

    Considering what a non-event Brock's first pinfall loss was, Hogan couldn't have been worse.

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  93. Ehh, I felt the opposite way - I found it pretty disappointing, I hated the "rest periods" that were given after falls (not their fault, that was a bad booking decision), and I found the ending very anti-climactic.

    Not that it was a BAD match, I was just expecting more.

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  94.  Take your complaints up with Bret Hart, who not only tried for pins after the second-rope elbow that never beat anyone (at least, not since he was a heel in the 80s and had Midnight Express powers where breaking up a pinfall would lead to a pin), but he ALWAYS ARGUED WITH THE REF ABOUT IT.

    "That move that never works should have worked this time, Hebner!"

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  95.  The pyro thing was great, but Orton did a better job of the "heel stalling out the clock" thing than anyone.

    The match didn't turn out good as a result, but Orton did a great version of being the 90s New Jersey Devils.

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  96. King of the underrated years is 2007, which most people have wiped out of their minds because of the Benoit stuff.

    But the first five months or so of the year was one incredible PPV after another, and a lot of the stuff at the tail end is also very good (No Mercy in particular).

    I mean, shit, Cena got watchable matches out of Khali that year.

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  97. The fuck? Rock pinned him clean 10 minutes in, then pinned him clean again after the (semi-botched) DDT, then pinned him again at the end (it's not like anyone interfered on his behalf).

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  98. It apparently won a vote of the WWE crew for best WM match, as that special Flair hosted in 2006 or so pointed out.

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  99. " Bret gets the first fall? Then it looks like Bret's the better man"

    Exactly, so when Bret comes back his argument is that he would have won a normal match, and that Shawn's in trouble when he gets him there.  Shawn's argument is that he won a match Bret had experience in and fought back. And then you have an issue that isn't built up around backstage stuff that no one in the audience knows about,

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  100. Great match, and shows exactly how much story potential you can get by having a guy drop a fall in a context where it doesn't effect the overall outcome of the match.

    I have no real issues with the work in Bret / Shawn, it's just that the booking blew.

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  101. You know, we all oftentimes criticize Vince McMahon for his obsession over being more than just a wrestling promoter, yet how often do people seem to validate somebody's star power by how well known they are by those outside the industry?  Does any other fanbase do this?

    I'm no Triple H fan, but the guy is a wrestler.  Why should the fact that his fandom is relegated to the wrestling community be a bad thing?  And before you say, "but HE is ashamed of that," how do you know that?  Has he ever voiced any desire whatsoever to get out of the industry to be a big star elsewhere?

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  102. No Mercy 07 HHH/Orton LMS
    WM 24 Cena/HHH/Orton
    NoC Cena/HHH/Orton
    SS 2007 Cena/Orton

    Now Im not in love with the guys but Ive enjoyed those matches between them.

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  103. they did. that's why at the height of the classic "attitude booking" - the year 1999 - nearly every ppv sucked and was not much more than a three hour Raw*.

    * but this comparism doesn't even hold up if Raw's regular length is three hours in the future.

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  104.  I think the match quality 2002 was very good, but it was just overshadowed by the brand extension and non existing great feuds and Hogan as World Champion.

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  105. * Shawn catches Bret with a superkick on the outside and rolls back in, Hart is counted out.  1-0 Shawn.
    * Bret catches Shawn in a counter or a small package for a three-count.  1-1.  Shawn is upset because Bret has pinned him again, thus increasing his desperation in the rest of the match.  Once Shawn wins in overtime, Bret can still feel screwed since he was the only one to score a legit fall in the match.

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  106. * Shawn catches Bret with a superkick on the outside and rolls back in, Hart is counted out.  1-0 Shawn.
    *
    Bret catches Shawn in a counter or a small package for a three-count. 
    1-1.  Shawn is upset because Bret has pinned him again, thus increasing
    his desperation in the rest of the match.  Once Shawn wins in overtime,
    Bret can still feel screwed since he was the only one to score a legit
    fall in the match.

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  107. I wrote a novel in an Ironman-related thread a few months ago about why I love the Bret/Shawn match, and one of the reasons is that it came from an era where wins/losses and titles really meant something. Shawn had never beaten Bret Hart before, so I liked the "no falls" aspect since it made that first 3 count on Bret mean something, as opposed to a throwaway spot 25 minutes in.

    Rock/HHH has better replay value (it doesn't for me but I concede that's got to be a minority opinion), but Bret/Shawn had bigger stakes and consequently better drama in their no falls, "basic" wrestling match given the context of the times. I mean, Rock won the title back the next month by pinning Vince!

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  108. Rock's first two falls over HHH were clean.

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  109. Shawn does, too.

    And another guy mentioned that special WWE ran hosted by Flair. I think the voting was allegedly done by the wrestlers themselves, but who knows if that's true. Regardless, that means at least someone else besides those 2 feels that way.

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  110. I'm a cheerleader for the "no falls" aspect of that match, but if they had to incorporate some falls, I'd want it to be like that.

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  111. Really? That doesn't sound like Hogan. The only match I saw during his comeback is the one with HBK. Still one of the funniest matches I've ever seen.

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  112. Rock generally kicked HHH's ass. H would usually get the win by cheating. Even in their big ladder match where HHH was the face & Rock the heel, H needed the assist from Chyna to win.

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  113. It's on Shawn's first DVD. Pretty good, though having commercial breaks on a fucking DVD was pretty goddamned annoying.

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  114. They sorta did this in the Attitude days, but it was more like you had your ppv (generally 9 matches with a high quality main event) that would end with some big plot twist that would resolve itself on Raw (most famously "Where to Stephanie?").

    But since there is barely any story in any of their stories I'd expect ppvs to become 6 matches tops with LOTS of promo vids showing how great a guy Cena is, and lots of WWE Universe masturbation. So basically WWE becomes a giant infomercial selling WWE with very little substance.

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  115. Yep, and I think it probably burns him up a bit to know that.

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  116. HHH was usually made to look smarter than The Rock. And everyone else for that matter.

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  117. I think its both inside and outside. The Rock is part of the Hogan/Savage/Hart/Michaels/Austin/Cena (sigh...) pantheon of WWF legends. HHH is a step below. That's a hell of a career, but I think HHH would very much like to be known as being on the same level.

    Also, I think once he starts doing movies, that's a sign that, yes, HHH does want to be a big star elsewhere.

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  118. Buster'ed!

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  119. I never understood why the WWE run didn't work out for Saturn. People on the net were predicting he'd do great for himself in WWE at the time. As rskva said he was crazy over in WCW, and was crazy over in ECW too. He was never a big promo guy, but neither was Benoit who did great for himself. I wonder what it was that made him not click with the audience?

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  120. Do you have any idea why they have that stance about Biker Taker these days? I mean it wasn't the most enjoyable thing in the world but it wasn't WrestleCrap material either, just a gimmick change.

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  121. regarding Shawn vs Mankind at Mind Games. Didn't Vince call an audible when the did the superplex thru the announce table? I remember Vince stopped commentating & was talking to Shawn.

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  122. I don't think it was out of hand yet at that point. In 00 I think he was doing the same as Flair did in the 80's. I don't remember when, but not long after 2000 it got incredibly ridiculous.

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  123. He won three straight clean falls here. Rock had to pin Vince to win the blowoff and finally rest the title from him.

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  124. I agree with this. A lot of people have mentioned before that the PPV model is struggling today and that there is more of a focus on Tv because of rights fees and ad sales.

    At the time the events of 1999 were very exciting. You never knew what would happen next. But looking back on it now so much of it was garbage.

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  125. SasukespecialmanMay 30, 2012 at 1:51 PM

    I generally agree with this, though I would also put Cena a level below those others. What separates those guys from the Cenas and HHHs of the world is that they didn't need the same overwhelming booking for the same amount of time. Cena and HHH both have about 20 title reigns because they needed to have their status reasserted. Aside from Hogan, everyone else on that list had limited time spans of "superstardom" but were clearly in a league of their own in terms of wrestling ability. They didn't need to be pushed as the top dogs, because everyone knew they really were.

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  126. I think most people just assume every wrestler (from CM Punk to Harley Race) would want to make 5-10 times the money for a less physically demanding job where they dictate where and when they work. Cena's worth about 17 mil apparently, and I remember Rock being in the 100 mil range (he's not there but he's closer to 100 than 50, if I remember right). But Cena has to be on the road 2/3 of the year and can't just go to Vince and ask for a year off (and expect to keep his spot and money).

    HHH had an interview last year where he made a point of emphasizing how he never wanted to go make movies, insinuating that Rock had less passion/dedication to wrestling since he was so eager to do it when Vince approached them *both* (he made sure to point out they were both offered movies, and made it seem like he could have had Rock's life/career if he wanted it). I can believe that the HHH of today may actually prefer his role (being next in line to run the company) to Rock's movie career. But I doubt there wasn't some serious jealously back in the early 2000s. And not just from HHH, but a guy like Austin too. It's just human nature.

    And I agree 100% with your take on wrestling fans and their "self loathing" when it comes to the sport they love.

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  127. Doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me either, but I can't claim the same type of success as Vince. So maybe I just don't get it and never will.

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  128. Not to mention Rock's ESPN interview from, I want to say 03 or 04, where he mentioned certain top stars (I distinctly remember him saying "And these are top-level guys who know who they are") who were jealous of him and would do things out of spite. This was on the heels of the Hurricane being squashed by H and Flair for weeks on end.

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  129. I'm not saying this as a Cena-hater but I just don't see Cena as part of that pantheon you mentioned. You have Hogan who was the biggest star of the 80s and a household name, Savage as the best all-around performer of the era and also a household name, Bret Hart and Shawn as top performers and Steve Austin and Rock as flag-bearers of one of wrestling's biggest eras EVER.

    But comparatively speaking, what has Cena done? Sure he's main-evented Wrestlemanias but those events are some of the least memorable in history. He's also been the top star of wrestling's most stagnant era in recent times. How does that make him a star on the level of Hogan or Austin? Because he sold some t-shirts? Some could argue about this past WM's buyrate but sorry, that was Rock-driven, not Cena-driven.

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  130. I agree and favor this division.

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  131. Sure. I don't _want_ to put Cena up there. I'm just listing the guys who were the face of the promotion from the 80s onward. If we want to get into questions of popularity, talent and charisma, then definitely yes: Hogan/Savage/Hart/Michaels/Rock/Austin are clear standouts.

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  132. And no other top face star in history (Austin, Hogan, Cena) would have been booked to lose three straight CLEAN falls (no cheating from H) or to get a fall by countout. He split clean falls with the heel.

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  133. Yep, jobbed to Rock clean, jobbed to Taker, tapped clean(!) to Angle, jobbed to a bearhug. 2002 Hogan was WEIRD.

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  134. 2008 was a sneaky great (tm Bill Simmons) year for PPV. Actually 2008 was a great year, period.

    But I'd put it up with any year WWE ever had, match quality wise. Plus you had some great storylines, like HBK/Flair, HBK/Batista, HBK/Jericho (this Shawn guy was pretty good apparently), Edge/Taker, Batista/Taker, rise of Jeff Hardy as a main eventer, and Cena's return at the Rumble was a great moment if not a great storyline.

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  135. Since we're on the subject of Iron Man matches; didn't Triple H get pinned in the first minute in his match with Benoit?

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  136. The psychology of those 3 falls are GREAT though. Hits Pedigree, gets pin. Minutes later Rock's still wobbly from the Pedigree, small package pin. Few minutes later, piledriver (which hurts the same part of the body as the pedigree).

    Also that countout Rock got was pretty sweet, he pedigreed H thru a table & bloodied him.

    Rock has beaten H clean plenty of times and was never tarnished by his losses. Goes to show Rock has bulletproof heat. Agreed that it's BS that he won the belt back by pinning Vince.

    In the long-run at this time  in 00 the booking looked to be leading to either Jericho vanquishing HHH at some point instead of just being beaten at Fully Loaded, OR H turning face to feud with Angle (after stealing Steph of course)...we all know how that turned out.

    Can't remember what looked to be happening with Rock but I guess most figured he'd be feuding with Austin when he returned which is what happened.

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  137.  Karma for what? Because HHH won 3 straight falls in an Iron Man Match? Jeez if he won another fall in a row I guess God would have gotten ready to strike him down on the spot.

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  138.  Which is why I like the fact that Cody Rhodes has beaten a few people with the Beautiful Disaster kick.If I remember right, he beat Booker with it, a couple lower card guys with it, and he might have used it to beat Big Show in the Chamber. It makes it so now it's a viable way to finish the match.

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  139. If I recall correctly, Vince was pissed off about the insane spot and was yelling at them for doing it. There was a myth floating around that Mankind was going to win the title & Vince changed the booking on the fly, but that's been disproven.

    I always wondered if the Vince spot was a work. Because earlier in the match, Foley "blows" a spot and HBK looks legit pissed...but Foley wrote in his book, they were just playing off of the HBK/Vader match from SummerSlam where Vader DID blow a spot and HBK DID get pissed.

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  140.  Yep, at Bragging Rights 2009. There have been widely divergent opinions on the match. I think it was a damn great match( I gave it ****1/4) I think most people agree, it was a better match than anyone anticipated; but given most people(including myself despite being an Orton fan) were expecting the worst, expectations weren't too high to begin with.

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  141. Hmm, I know exactly what you're talking about.

    Sooo if your theory is true and they worked in a spot of Vince dropping character & ordering them to go home; does that make Michaels vs Mankind at Mind Games the most meta pro wrestling match?

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  142.  Interesting point.  Have we become so beaten down, downtrodden, and jaded that we care more about wins and losses now than we did ten years ago (even though we're supposedly smarter and more mature)?  Like, we have so many distastes for the product that we view certain wrestlers winning matches as glimmers of hope; therefore, we care more about winning and losing than we ever have? 

    I'm only joking when I say the following, but:  have we completed the smart mark cycle and have become marks again?

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  143. Mind Games also wasn't an Iron Man match. And it directly set up the Buried Alive PPV.

    The 2000 run-in set up nothing, really, as the King of the Ring main event was terrible and Undertaker had zero heat as the American Badass.

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  144.  Saturn never got over, no but was he talented enough to do so? Absolutely. It's not his fault they saddled him with a shitty gimmick.

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  145.  If were talking about match quality the top 3 years for me would be 2000, 2001, and 2002. I'm talking Raw, SmackDown, and PPV.

    In 2000 you had:
    Triple H vs. Cactus Jack Street Fight and Hell in a Cell, Rock vs. Triple H Backlash and Judgment Day, Benoit vs. Jericho, Benoit vs. Rock, Jericho vs. HHH, TLC at Summerslam, Triangle Ladder Match at WM, Benoit vs. HHH, Rock vs. Angle, 6 Man HIAC,

    2001 had:
    Benoit vs. Jericho Ladder Match, Royal Rumble Match, pretty much the entire No Way Out 2001 PPV, WrestleMania 17, Benoit vs. Angle Submission match, Benoit vs. Angle 2 out of 3 falls, Benoit/Jericho vs. Austin/HHH, TLC on SmackDown, Austin vs. Benoit Raw and SmackDown, Jericho vs. Austin on Raw, Angle vs. Benoit Cage Match, Shane vs. Angle Street Fight, Benoit vs. Jericho vs. Austin, Austin vs. Angle Summerslam, Hardy vs. RVD Ladder Match, Undertaker/Kane vs. Kronik(HA!), Jericho vs. RVD, Rock vs. Jericho, WWF vs. Alliance, etc.

    Basically we started seeing more great matches on free TV and PPV in 2000.

    2002 of course had the SmackDown Six, plus Brock and Taker's awesome HIAC. 2000 is my favorite year because they not only had a bunch of great matches, but great storylines, great PPV's top to bottom, fresh faces, and they were still riding high whereas in 2002 they were on a downward trend.

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  146. Between this, the 3-hour Raws, the stock hitting new lows every day and the impending doom of Linda McMahon's Senate campaign.....things are not going to be pretty this summer.

    I think to improve TV ratings, they should improve the quality of their TV. The problem isn't the promotion of shows - WWE has that mastered - its that the main event feud is Big Show vs. John Cena in 2012.

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  147.  Honestly people can complain "oh Hunter beat Rock clean 3 straight falls" I say who cares and to quote Scott "Rock turned out OK" Rock could afford and Rock was willing to lose clean and it didn't hurt the match or the Rock, and we all know damn well had HHH gotten 3 cheap falls on Rock everyone would say "wow Rock can't job to HHH, way to bury HHH"

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  148.  in 2002 there were matches like Austin vs Jericho, Jericho vs The Rock, Triple H vs Jericho, RVD vs Chris Benoit, Angle vs Rey, HBK vs HHH, Rock vs Undertaker vs Angle, Angle vs HHH, Angle vs Edge, Lesnar vs Rock, Lesnar vs RVD, Jericho vs Angle, RVD vs Jericho, Flair vs Eddie, Edge vs Eddie, Flair vs Jericho.... sounds not so bad IMO...=)

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  149. If we have gotten to this point it's WWE's fault. There have been so many aborted pushes of new guys, interesting storylines that fizzle halfway thru, and most of all times where the wrong guy goes over in the past 10 years, that it's easy to see why the IWC is so cynical now.

    Hell, look at Fully Loaded a few months later. Jericho SHOULD have beaten HHH, but didn't. Everyone was still happy b/c it was an awesome match, but then that big Jericho push that looked to be on the horizon never did come... so then our (the royal our) mindset becomes "yeah HHH vs Punk was a pretty good match, but H won so nothing's gonna change." Who can blame us?

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  150.  Well obviously it's a matter of opinion but:
    HHH/Orton No Mercy 2007 is one of my favorite matches
    Orton/Cena I Quit Match- People seem torn about that match but I love it
    Orton/Cena Summerslam 2007

    Sometimes guys can develop chemistry by working with each other a lot, and sometimes guys just have it from the start, or sometimes they never have chemistry. I love that Triple H/Orton LMS match but I agree, they've never had good chemistry.

    Rock and Triple H developed it by the time they both peaked as workers in 2000. Their matches in 1998 were up and down but in 2000 everytime they locked up it rocked.

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  151.  If you go through the Colt Cabana Art of Wrestling archives, he's got a few with guys who are currently in WWE or have been in the past, so you could probably find something that's your speed.

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  152.  Ya know, it really eats at Hunter, too.  In those Austin and Rock documentaries, he still likes to give backhanded compliments or he just gets snippy--nothing from him is 100% positive or sincere when he talks about those guys.  Basically, if they were in the 80s, Austin and Rock would be Hogan and Flair/Piper, and HHH would be Harley Race.  Ain't nothing wrong with being Harley Race--he's treated like the Godfather (Pacino or Brando, not Papa Shango) everywhere he goes.  Yet, HHH tries to whip out his jock any time he can in order to show how he was bigger and better than the biggest and best stars.

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  153. I had forgotten that's how Hogan had submitted there. (I'd forgotten about that match entirely until they showed the clip last month). That makes it so much cooler because Hogan was pretty much the go to for that spot with the big flex & fist shaking on the 3rd drop. For Hogan's arm to go up that third time and then actually fall limply? Shit no wonder Brock got over so hard.

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  154. Got it ages ago =) As mentioned, No blurring, Original soundtracks and no cuts (e.g. Benoit matches in tact) 
    Got the above mentioned and

    Armageddon 2000 & No Way Out 2001 (2 discs) $12.36
    Survivor Series 2001 & Vengeance 2001 (2 discs) $10.82

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  155. Didn't work for the WWF argument, sadly.

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  156. I definitely prefer Bret/Shawn to Rock/HHH.

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  157.  The ending made perfect sense to me. Loved Brock holding out for the clock, making Kurt fall victim to his own wrestling style.

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  158. I'm a big fan of Colt.  You really don't have to know much about indy wrestling to "get" the podcast.  Hell, you don't even have to know anything about wrestling to "get" the podcast.  Each one is an interview and they're usually pretty entertaining, they talk a little about wrestling and mostly about their lives in wrestling.

    Plus he's interviewed Samoa Joe, Bryan, Punk, Foley, Ryder,  Lita, Ziggler, Tommy Dreamer, Beth Phoenix, Rhino, Petey Williams, MVP.  A fair selection of big names there.

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  159. Business wise, I don't get this, but from a creative standpoint it could be good. If they know that basically the only people who are buying PPVs are the die-hard fans who want to see a specific match, they'll be more inclined to put those kind of matches on PPV (like, say, Punk vs. Bryan). Let Raw & Smackdown push the big angles forward and have some payoffs on the show, because that will help move storylines along and lead to some good matches on TV (remember, when they first started doing brand-specific PPVs in 02, there were a ton of great blowoff title matches on whichever show didn't have the PPV that month.) And then on the PPVs (minus the big 4, I'd bet) the real wrestling fans get to see the guys they actually care about have longer matches. They make less money from it, but maybe the word of mouth grows and they rehab the PPV market on the backs of real wrestling. I'm all for this.

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  160.  Yeah, I agree those are both nice ideas.

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  161. Makes sense.  Yeah, I've noticed it big time at the Lakers games. 

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  162. Perfectly said, my thoughts exactly! 

    I will admit that I don't pull Shawn/Bret out once a year the way I do a brisk match like Savage/Steamboat, but then again -- I don't pull Flair/Steamboat out every year and watch that either, but it doesn't make it any less impressive. 

    They are matches you really have to be willing to invest your time and attention in and are rewarding if you do.

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  163. Good point.  Although if they go and upscale all of the old matches to HD resolutions and bitrates, they'll end up taking almost as much disc space as they do in DVD quality on a DVD. 

    Which is too bad because most of it would top out in terms of resolution around DVD quality anyway, but it's just very hard to sell people on the idea of a BR full of DVD quality video, even though that is really the way to go for a set like this.

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  164. Buuuuut...he wasn't.

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  165. It's been available on DVD for years in the UK, in the superior PAL format too.

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  166. This just in:

    Randy Orton suspended for wellness violation.

    STRIKE TWO!

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  167. Ooh, "No Way Out, 2001" - still my favorite PPV of all time.

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  168. I don't even think it's a win/loss thing.  I just feel like a large segment of the audience can't see the woods for the trees.  These may seem like extreme examples, but Brock Lesnar absolutely dominated John Cena in a match that i personally did not see, but I was following the results on Twitter.  The response was almost unanimously positive.  People could not believe the beatdown Cena was taking.  People believed Lesnar was a monster and they were sympathetic towards Cena.  Then Cena won, and all of that goodwill was gone and people were writing off a year-long return tour.

    So is the end result all that matters?  No, of course not, because Cena toyed with the Miz at WrestleMania and lost THAT match, but nobody argues that it legitimized Miz or his title reign.

    Again, these are extreme examples and I'm not arguing that there are instances where the wrong decision was made.  But I feel like there's a lot of people who completely ignore everything good and harp on the negative aspect of the story or match.

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  169. One of my favorite WWF shows, and the main is one of my favorite all time matches. I do re-watch it at least once a year. I've seen some comments about it being a bit punchy/kicky, but like a few others have posted, I see it as a product of its time.

    Bret/Shawn kind of bores me though, I actually prefer the highlight reel from All Day Long.

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  170. Probably all the music rights to his themes during that era.

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  171. strange enough. I can easily see Cena up there with Hogan and Austin. but Bret Hart or  Shawn Michaels? sorry, but they were never the kind of top stars that the others are.

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  172. Apology accepted?

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  173. Definitely the Cabana podcast. Just scroll through and look for some names you recognize. The Domino podcasts are both pretty legendary. I love his Jay Lethal podcast and his Colin Delany podcast. Really, they're all very entertaining though, so give it a try. Even the guys I'd never heard of or knew very little about were still great. For instance, Willie Mack was a guy who I've seen wrestle once and he had one of my favorite podcasts.

    I haven't found another good, free wrestling podcast yet.

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  174. I've always wondered that too. I remember being amped for Wrestlemania 21 live and once I got in the arena, the apathy of those inside kinda rubbed off on me. I went to Summerslam last year and the crowd was really into Punk/Cena and Orton/Christian, but other than that, it seemed pretty dead compared to other ppv's I've been to. I've always wanted to go to a big event in Chicago or NY to experience the crowd participation.

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  175. I'm with you on 2008. I was enjoying the product for the first time in a long time in 08.

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