Hey Scott,
Was thinking about this while watching Big Show make a fool out of Cody Rhodes AGAIN on Raw last night: For all the crap we give Cena & Triple H about holding down young talent, is there any WWE wrestler who has been more detrimental to the careers of upcoming stars than the Big Show?
Just look at what he's done in the last 2+ years since his post JeriShow face turn.
Over the Limit 2010: Lost to new WHC Jack Swagger via DQ when Swagger used a chair because, ya know, he COULDN'T POSSIBLY BEAT THE BIG SHOW. Swagger never got a decisive clean title defense against Show.
Summerslam 2010 and Night of Champions 2010: Beats the SeS in a handicap match and pins Punk clean. Punk, who came off a great feud with Rey and had lots of momentum, never sniffs a win against Show.
Survivor Series 2010: Survives an elimination match. Along the way he knocks out and eliminates brand new heel Alberto Del Rio.
Wrestlemania 27 & Extreme Rules 2011: Scores winning pin against Wade Barrett's team. Throughout the feud against Barrett, Show never lost to Wade or made him look the least bit threatening.
Over the Limit 2011: Teams with Kane to defeat CM Punk and Mason Ryan. Just in case anyone forgot that Punk sucks compared to Show.
Capitol Punishment 2011: What, Big Show loses? To an upcoming heel Alberto Del Rio?!! Well, only after a pre-match sneak attack by Mark Henry, and a referee stoppage because god forbid Show tapped to Del Rio's finisher after already having his leg broken.
Money in the Bank 2012: Show loses clean and does the stretcher job for Mark Henry! Wow. And he lets Henry have a long, money-making run as an unstoppable force, never getting his win back..oh wait…
Vengeance – Survivor Series – TLC 2011: Show returns to basically squash everything Henry had built up in the previous months. Never loses to Henry, beats him clean at TLC, and knocks him out multiple times.
From TLC to Mania: Feuds with Daniel Bryan, never putting him over. Closest is Bryan escaping the cage in a 3-way at the Rumble. But the gist of the feud is Bryan running from Show and never looking the least bit in Show's league.
Wrestlemania 28 – present: Beats young heel Cody Rhodes clean at every turn, never making him look credible. Show's only "loss" came when accidentally stepping through a table, but to make sure we all know Rhodes is a complete chump Show then proceeds to beat the shit out of him. Pins and beats the shit out of Cody several more times on TV.
Of course mixed in there are TV squashes of Ziggler, Miz, Mcyntire, and Del Rio a week before he defended the WWE title at Survivor Series.
So not to sound like a mark and blame this all on the Big Show, who is just doing his job, but what is WWE thinking? Show basically beats everyone in the company yet is still barely over. Does anyone pay to see him? Are Show "WMD" wool knit caps flying off the shelves? Seriously, if he's going to look this dominant then they need to put the WWE title on him and let him headline PPVs, because otherwise they just have a fat, slow, grinning nostalgia act who cuts the legs out of every promising new star.
So what do you think? Is Show (and their usage of him) as detrimental as I'm making it sound? If so, should Show catch heat from the fans for never putting over young stars? Or maybe you feel they do use him correctly? Anyway, thanks!
-Pat
PS: Did I mention that I can't stand the Big Show?
I got that inference out of the letter, yes.
I definitely think that this program with Cody Rhodes is doing no favors to Cody at all, although as you noted it's not Show's fault personally. He's pretty over with the public and acts as a credible guy at that level, so I don't really have any problem with how he's being used at the moment, but there's limited usage for a guy his size anyway.
Although laying out all the evidence like that IS pretty convincing...
The problem with Big Show and it's always been this way for most of his career is that they book him to look strong but never go anywhere with it as he's never had any lengthy title reigns or anything so he just ends up keeping jobbers of equal stature on his level because when someone DOES manage to beat the Big Show it doesn't mean anything because he doesn't have any accolades. There's a world of difference to beating 10 time WWE Champion The Big Show as opposed to the reality which is beating uh....the Big Show. A guy who hasn't done much of note for his whole career despite being booked like a monster.
ReplyDeleteexactly. to me it's the same with the way the WWE seems to look and Kane - and how most fans do.
ReplyDeleteyes, the WWE would like us to think that Kane and Randy Orton are both equally high on the totem pole - but most people watching realize they are not. because after all: what high profile wins did Kane have in the last ten years?
Man, it's the Big Show. He shouldn't lose.
ReplyDeleteWhen Show first came to the WWF and was jobbing left & right, people complained. When he doesn't job, people complan.
He's an attraction. People will always buy Big Show as a threat due to his size.
Think about it this way: does Cody Rhodes make it on the WrestleMania card in a singles match w/out Big Show? Probably not. He's a guy people know.
Aside from his debut during the Austin - McMahon cage match, I have hated his entire WWF/E run. He is a big sideshow oddity that harkens wrestling back to the carny days.
ReplyDelete"He's an attraction. People will always buy Big Show as a threat due to his size."
ReplyDeleteWhich is EXACTLY why he should lose.
Some of this argument is very weak. Show is a face and got revenge on the heel Mark Henry. That is how wrestling works.
ReplyDeleteAnd your Bryan argument is a stretch. Of course Bryan looked weak compared to Show, just look at them! The fact that Show never squashed him like a bug is a victory in and of itself.
I think they slot Show just right now. He is very over with the general audience, but they don't go and put the World Title on him any longer than 30 seconds.
If you're that big and losing all the time, you become The Great Khali.
ReplyDeletePlaying devil's advocate, I've never heard anyone complain about Andre the Giant's 10-year undefeated streak (which, I believe, was a no-pinfall streak, but whatever). I just wish they'd figure out what they want to do with the Big Show. Make him an Andre the Giant-esque undefeated monster, or make him a regular "superstar". They seem to switch back and forth, and they rarely seem to have any real long term plans for him.
ReplyDeleteThanks for printing my letter Scott! And as to the devil's advocate points about Show, my problem is that despite looking so dominant it never really leads anywhere. If they're gonna have him destroy everyone, then they need to use him as a bona-fide ticket-selling main eventer. Andre being undefeated worked because people paid to see him. He main evented the biggest show of all-time. Big Show, on the other hand, isn't over enough to be in that spot. Therefore he ends up just being a midcarder that makes every other midcarder look like a loser.
ReplyDeleteIn summary, would it really damage Show's career if 2-3 times a year some new heels legitimately beat him clean? Would tapping to Del Rio or losing clean to Cody have diminished him at all?
Why must we infer from that list that it's Big Show who decides how his matches are booked?
ReplyDeleteAlso, I think the poster is forgetting all the embarrassing nonsense Big Show has had to do in his WWE career. I think if you take an objective stance you'll see he doesn't take himself too seriously at all.
I said nothing about losing all the time.
ReplyDeleteI recall Rob Van Dam pinning him during his monster push in 2001 and it was very effective in getting RVD over.
ReplyDeleteI honestly think you could pick any upper card worker and present facts in a certain way to make them seem like assholes that hold everyone back.
ReplyDeleteWell....it's The Big Show!
ReplyDeleteThey should have had Big Show putting Rhodes over huge. Big Show is 40 freaking years old and is no more the future of the company than The Rock is. Cody Rhodes has terrific charisma and can be a legitimate main event player. Why they would use him to make Big Show look dominant is beyond stupid.
ReplyDeleteI'm not necessarily a Big Show fan, but I wouldn't go as far as to say that he's holding people down or destroying careers. I think of a Big Show feud more like jury duty: everyone has to do it at some point, so you might as well suck it up and get it over with. With the exception of Mark Henry, I can't think of anyone in recent times who actually came out of a feud with Show in a better position than they came in with, but he got enough size and credibility with the audience where losing to him doesn't make one a complete jobber.
ReplyDeleteAll that said, it wouldn't bother me one bit if he disappeared tomorrow.
I think the thing that kills Big Show's opponents is the fact that he is boring as hell. Honestly he sucks the life out of every program he is involved in... you know the matches are gonna blow, you know the promo work is going to be clichéd and repetitive, he just kills off anything interesting about anyone. The only environment he works well in is a freak show aspect like against Mayweather or being thrown around like a human doll by Brock Lesnar. The worst thing that can happen to someone sometimes is being put in a program with a boring performer no matter the outcome.
ReplyDeleteA couple of things here:
ReplyDelete1) Andre's run was in a different era, pre-internet smarks, less live TV, and when multi-year title runs were common. At least Andre wasn't on Superstars every week.
2) "10 years undefeated" was more of a kayfabe thing to push the WMIII feud with Hogan, than anything. He may not have lost in WWF during that time, I don't know much pre-1984, but it seems pretty tacked-on to add to the feud.
3) Other than the WMIII main event run, all I can remember from Andre is being a special attraction. I.e. bodyslam matches, battle royals, etc. The WMIII headlining feud, and a midcard run where Haku carried him in tag matches were his 2 biggest runs post-expansion.
It was? Somebody pinning Big Show seems like a pretty regular occurrence back then, which is why people had trouble with his feud with Brock initially.
ReplyDeleteHe's only losing all the time because basketballs don't hold grudges
ReplyDeleteShow did do a lot for Brock Lesnar during his babyface run, was the first guy to put over John Cena in any significant way, and (according to Paul Heyman, always a reliable source!) was cool with tapping to Punk in the Elimination Chamber at that disastrous New ECW PPV. Well, and he put over Lashley clean, but it's Lashley, so it's hard to care.
ReplyDeleteI think the problem with Show right now is that he's an upper card babyface in WWE. How many big name guys put over anyone clean on a regular basis?
And going even further back there was him going over super hot Eddie Guerrero for no reason, however i do agree with someone elses point that most top babyfaces can be shown in that negative light cause that's just the way it works
ReplyDeleteI've never understood how the WMD is a legal move. It's a closed fist.
ReplyDeleteWhile I wouldn't really call Show a great performer by any means, I do like him a lot - he seems like one of the nicest people on the roster, and has a great work-ethic in terms of sticking with the horrible travel-schedule (made even worse just by his size) for fifteen years, doing anything that is asked of him, and trying to work a "regular" style (chinlocks) instead of just skating by on his natural size. I also think he's pretty charismatic and pretty good on the mic; for a guy that could have easily gone done the road of so many other uncharismatic "giants" like Giant Gonzales and Loch Ness, he's always tried to improve that aspect of his game, as well.
ReplyDeleteAll that said, he's still not really great in any way, and it's really only his size combined with the fact that he doesn't outright suck like so many other guys his size that has given him the opportunity to have such a long and financially-strong career.
As for the way he's actually been handled over the last few years, he's been EXTREMELY protected, to the point where being programmed with him is a huge blow to whomever is working with him. I don't blame Show one bit, though, as he's very clearly shown over the years that he's willing to job to anybody and partake in any stupid angle that is thrown his way; Show damaging the credibility of whomever he is programmed with is 100% on Vince, as Vince seems to believe that, a) a guy Show's size should generally be protected at all costs, and b) new guys HAVE to be jobbed and made to look inept against veterans as a way of "testing their loyalty" or whatever.
As somebody else stated, Vince does the same thing with Kane: Kane will be an unstoppable monster that tears through the midcard before losing to a main-eventer, and then repeats the process all over again. Kane is, personality wise, very similar to Show in that he's willing to do whatever is asked of him no matter how stupid; I doubt Kane is saying "Hey, Vince, I just lost my big PPV match, let me go out and squash a bunch of tag-teams to regain my heat."
Vince is just out of touch. It's become almost cliche' at this point, but I'll repeat Punk's line: "Vince is a millionaire that should be a billionaire." Yes, working with Show generally negatively impacts his opponent, but it's not Show's fault.
Summer of 2010: Knucklehead (featuring the Big Show) gets released and bombs.
ReplyDeleteThe next two years: Big Show puts no one over.
Coincidence? I think not...
Yeah, personally I think it is too late for him no matter what, because although the WWE's booking of him has not helped his career, a lot of the problem is with the guy himself. In terms of booking, he was booked overall the best during his early WCW run, but that also happens to coincide with the period when he was something special for his size.
ReplyDeletePart of that is the WWE's fault for never getting it right at the start booking wise, but even by that point I don't think it was looking great for him, I think a lot of it is that people liked him in 1996-1997 in WCW was because he could move -- he could throw a dropkick, come off the top-rope, etc. A 90s version of Andre, if you will. Once he gained another 75lbs, he just became the 80s version of a way past his prime Andre and I just don't think that really cuts it anymore.
That's a great point. For all of his wins he's also been part of some of the most embarrassing shit we've *ever* seen in wrestling.
ReplyDeleteTHIS.
ReplyDeleteAll Andre did was go from territory to territory doing special matches. He had probably 3 big fueds, all in the WWF. Afer WM3 he jobbed to Snake, WarriAH and had a token tag run as a thanks. Andre and Show have nothing in common as far as careers go.
legit? thats a stretch. He is Christian minus the in ring workrate.
ReplyDeleteBut that being said, I DO *heart* Cody Rhodes. Ive been singing his praises since the tag days with Teddy Jr.
closed fists are legal now... dont u read WWE.com?
ReplyDelete/kidding
I think it's unfair to say that it's only his size that has allowed him to have such a long and financially strong career. Like you said, he has a lot of the tools necessary to be a star. You take away his gigantic size, you might also take away his natural limitations. When he was younger and thinner, he was able to achieve some pretty impressive feats. For all we know, he might be an amazing athlete if he was 6'5" and 275 pounds.
ReplyDeleteAgreed. In addition to all the silly gimmicks/matches/feuds he's had to do, there were also long stretches that he jobbed clean. A lot.
ReplyDeleteI don't buy the "of course he looks weak in comparison to him!" argument. This is not Big Show's fault, mind you, but it was entirely in WWE's power to not book these two against each other. It's not as if they had no choice but to make Bryan look like a loser in comparison.
ReplyDeleteThe booking of the Show/Bryan feud was great. It accomplished turning Bryan heel by creating a character who would find any loophole or technicality to outsmart his larger opponent in order to retain the title. And then was smug enough about it to celebrate with YES YES YES!
ReplyDeleteExactamundo. When Brock dropped the title, which I think was his first pinfall loss, he dropped it to...Big Show? Guh?
ReplyDeleteHe DID put HHH over, because you KNOW he needed the push.*
ReplyDelete* - denotes scarcasm
They should bring back a classic ECW gimmick and make Big Show the new 911.
ReplyDeleteMaybe its not Show, it's his useless opponents. Complaining about Jack Swagger, Del Rio etc none of them are anything special, Show jobbing to them is a waste of time. SxS was a joke.
ReplyDeleteDaniel Bryan's character development happened feuding with Show and Henry, and that's why he's over today. BTW Show jobbed the title he just won for the first time in years right away.
Mark Henry got over by breaking Show's leg, Show came back for revenge. A classic storyline.
As for Cody if you watched the last PPV he got a huge pop, something worked and it isn't his dumb promos with his stupid voice.
Big Show is a giant he shouldn't be jobbing to every ham n egger on the roster. He has put over plenty of guys in his career, is better on the mic than the majority of the roster and his matches are fun to watch. He's one of the few guys who can do an effective beatdown left in WWE.
Bryan was way more over after that feud with Henry and Show than he was before.
ReplyDeleteThat's very true, and I guess I didn't give Show enough credit in my previous post - he does have the work-ethic and attitude, and he's decently charismatic. I guess it'd be kind of toss-up; he could have been Triple H, or he could have been Luke Gallows (no offense to Gallows, I'm a big mark for the guy, I'm just talking about how Vince viewed him), it really comes down to whether Vince would have taken a real shine to him and pushed him heavily, or if Vince felt he was just another dime-a-dozen big guy with decent charisma that only deserved one half-hearted push before giving up on him.
ReplyDeleteVery interesting "what if?" scenario.
Another big problem with Show is simply overexposure - a guy like that shouldn't be on TV every week, fighting everybody, trading wins back and forth, and using "regular" moves like chinlocks.
ReplyDeleteIf ANY character could benefit from a part-time schedule, it's Show - you could bring him back as a face or a heel, in many different situations. A big muscular guy like Mason Ryan claims to have beaten the biggest and baddest? Bring back Show. A wimpy guy like Santino or Ryder is being bullied and needs a tag-team partner? Bring back Show. A smaller guy like Bryan or Punk dominates the main-event scene for several months and needs a new challenger? Bring back Show.
Hell, I actually think Show would be perfect for an "authority" role, he'd be a great GM for one of the brands; he could be completely neutral, has the mic-skills and popularity to deliver big announcements, and is the type of guy that none of the heels would question or challenge. He just needs to spend less time in the ring; having him constantly lose ruins his own mystique, and having him constantly win ruins others' mystique.
WELLLLLLL....
ReplyDeleteWell it's the Big Show!
It's actually an interesting thought for a lot of big guys. There's always the "if you take away his size he wouldn't be a star." But, again, there may be instances where the person's size results in physical limitations as well. Not every big man, of course. But a worthy discussion for some.
ReplyDeleteThread Jack:
ReplyDeleteJohn Cena is getting divorced, and his wife hired Linda Hogan's lawyer. I can't wait for the tell all book.
Big Show isn't an attraction. He's part of the regular roster. If he WERE an attraction, that'd be different and (as far as I'm concerned) fine.
ReplyDeleteHuh, wonder if squeaky clean John Cena has some skeletons in the closet...you never know and thus why I never agree with making any of these guys role models.
ReplyDeleteRegardless, they got married in '09 and with a prenup. She doens't deserve shit and neither did Linda.
Haha, I knew when I came here someone would be jerking themselves to the idea of Cena having marital problems.
ReplyDeleteShow's entire career would've been 1,000x better if they had let him no-sell the way UT does.
ReplyDeleteIf anyone should just sit up from something like say, a frog splash from a guy half his weight, it's Show.
I know he had pretty resounding losses to Booker, Angle, and a few other people at that time. Any time before the Brock feud WWF was really hot & cold on him anyway, hence going from Wrestlemania main event to developmental within a few months.
ReplyDeleteFrom what I heard at the time, it was kind of a whirlwind marriage anyway, or a Britney-Spears-and-her-high-school-boyfriend-in-Vegas type situation at least. He is always on the road, I'd bet he barely fucking knows his wife.
ReplyDeleteIt's funny to read Shawn Michaels' book where he talks about his first wife like she's just some stranger he happened to be married to, or reading Bret Hart's book where, basically, Julie was just someone who lived in his house and raised his children all the years they were married, and anytime they were together they just fought. If I'm a wrestler and not married, I fucking keep it that way til I'm off the road. But that's just me, I like having all my stuff.
I've been accused of being a constant WWE-basher before but I gotta say, their Kool Aid must work pretty well because my first thought was "hey, Show sold well for Bryan, that counts for something!"
ReplyDeleteShow is both simultaneously underrated and overrated. He's underrated because he's actually a decently crisp worker with a good work ethic and a good reputation. As many have said, I'm sure if they wanted him to job constantly he would. Given time he even tries to add different things to his moveset, and as I said, he'll sell for anyone. He's overrated mainly by Vince & the like, because he's supposed to be this big, threatening, dominant monster and, honestly, even if he had been booked that way from day one it just wouldn't stick, because the guy's goofy hillbilly personality seems to shine through no matter what he does. There's always gonna be 7 footers and giants in wrestling, and of all of them Show's always been the best, but at this point he's seen his best days and he has to think about his health. When Andre was his age, he was 3 years away from death. Show's heart isn't gonna hold out on him forever, and the upper card needs room to breathe. It's not because I want to see him gone, necessarily, but it's time for him to hang it up.
I don't think this is completely a bad thing. People used to complain that for a guy Big Show's size, he was losing way too much and/or not looking like a credible enough threat. And now he does look like a threat for a guy his size (with people rarely pinning him or making him submit) and now people are complaining about that?
ReplyDeleteDifferent people complain. I hate Show and never care if he loses, seriously, fuck that guy.
ReplyDeleteYou heard the John Cena loves fucking fat chicks interview right? Cena might not be a farmer, but he was sowing some wild oats, if you know what I mean.
ReplyDeletehttp://challonge.com/wrestlingtournament2012
ReplyDeleteWell, yes. You can, but can you think of anybody over the last two years that Big Show helped? Mark Henry? How long did that last? Even Orton hasn't gotten his win back.
ReplyDeleteI've never understood why closed fists are illegal.
ReplyDeleteYikes some of those were hard to pick between.
ReplyDeleteYeah but the point of Big Show is to keep him around so he can put people over big. Like in 2003, when Lesnar had that crazy Stretcher Match. Or 2004, when he put Cena over. Or even 2008 when Money Mayweather needed to beat someone.
ReplyDeleteJust look back to Mark Henry beating him, that made Henry legit. Of course Henry's injury and bizarre punishment for getting injured ruined that.
Big Show is just too big to put too many people over.
I think if you added it up, I've given a fuck about the Big Show for maybe 4 months of his 13 year WWE career. He's slow, he's boring, none of his feuds are terribly interesting, there's nothing about his character that makes me want to listen to him talk, and nothing about his ring work and keeps me interested. He seems like a nice guy and at his size he can't be blamed for his slow ring style, but I've just never gotten into the character...possibly because they rarely used him the way he should've been used - a giant who can't be beat, until finally someone finds a way to cut him down. Instead they used him as just another guy who happened to be big, and every now and then they'd expect us to take him serious as a threat because of that size.
ReplyDeleteHe was floating around doing nothing until the Invasion, and during the Invasion his gimmick was of an under-achiever. Then they put him on Team WWF at Survivor Series because he's big. I don't think he did much of anything after that, but wait - he joins the nWo, and this is seriously business because he's big! He continues to do nothing of note after that, until he goes to Smackdown and gets the WWE Championship from Brock because he's BIG! Keep in mind him having a title match at a September pay per view would be a stretch at this stage of his career.
He's a lot like Kane, where they think whenever they put him in a big match we're supposed to buy into it because he's supposedly his dominating force even though he very rarely dominates anything. It's worse now because now he has "typically protected WWE locker room veteran" status.