Just to follow up on a comment in the RAW thread...
Knowing how this company does things and why, I wouldn't be shocked if they considered it worth $5 million just to have Brock put over their WWE Superstars.
Listening to the WON radio show this morning, and in fact this is exactly why Cena went over. The mind boggles.
What do you make of Brock's reported temper tantrum after the Cena match? This Brock garbage is going to be a huge disaster for the WWE & I'm loving every minute of it! I still hope they job him to Santino!
ReplyDeleteIf they paid Brock $5 million to build up to a big job to Cena at SummerSlam....that would make sense.
ReplyDeleteAs is....it does not.
Meh, could care less about Brock.
ReplyDeleteAnd I've always thought that one of the things Vince has done incredibly well is make his guys look like bona fide ELITE superstars by putting them over outsiders like the WCW guys in the invasion. Vince is absolutely right to not want to put his biggest star down at the expense of a UFC guy who just lost twice on the way out. UFC = WCW. competition.
TNA suffers from the problem of putting over every WWE reject to the point where eternal mid-carder Christian ended up their champion. All this says to me is John Cena, HHH, Randy Orton > Christian and therefore also > Samoa Joe, AJ Styles etc. Now imagine if Samoa Joe had of destroyed big time WWE guys Angle and Hardy on arrival, would it have left money on the table? Perhaps. But the perception of Joe would be that he's TNA's guy and hes a FUCKING star whose as good as any of the few guys that could hang with Angle and Hardy in the WWE.
The only homegrown stars that ever got over in WCW were Sting and Goldberg because they actually went over the NWO/WWF guys.
Brocks been openly bought in as this big time UFC champ, so you job Cena out to him and have him destroy everyone in his path. What for one Wrestlemania payday with Rock, which helps who exactly in the long term? Does that help create the Next Big Thing at all? No. Brocks ass at some point needs to put a Punk or a Bryan over, and who knows maybe a Ryback if he catches on, just like Rock did for his selfish ass back in 02.
In some ways it reminds me of Warrior going to WCW.
ReplyDeleteI wasn't completely disappointed that Brock lost since he can still sort of use the "I lost the battle but won the war" mentality, but still, coming in and losing the big first match seems wrong. I could see him losing at least once before his big loss at Wrestlemania next year or whatever, but why his first match...
ReplyDeleteIn UFC, Brock was a WWE guy. And by going over established UFC guys, he became an even bigger star.
ReplyDeleteIt's fine they want to build Brock up as an outsider and have someone beat him...but they didn't really build him up...his WWE record is now 0-1.
Now Brock gets to put over that up-and-coming star Triple H!
ReplyDeleteThe main problem is that the stipulations of the match painted the WWE in a corner. If there was any match that needed to be a no contest or Brock being DQed for spazzing on Cena, then it was this one.
ReplyDeleteThey should have done one of those things like Bret/Austin where Cena never gets pinned or gives up but the beating continues until the refs just decide to stop the match. It makes both guys look good. Cena looks like a man's man for taking a beating and Lesnar looks like an absolute beast who kicks someone's ass so bad they just have to stop it.
ReplyDeleteThen again, that's pro wrestling booking and Vince isn't in to that sort of thing.
There will be a million people who buy WrestleMania next year and who have no idea that Brock lost to Cena on Sunday. Guaranteed. This is much ado about nothing.
ReplyDeleteWhat is the difference? I thought we all decided a couple weeks ago that SummerSlam meant nothing anyway.
ReplyDeleteYeah the only difference here is that Brock IS a homegrown WWE guy. He became famous first in WWE. It's not UFC that made him a star. He used his stardom to make it big in UFC. Moreover, this isn't some midcard chump like Christian/Jeff Hardy/RVD etc TNA likes to push heavily. This was BROCK LESNAR a multi time world champion of both WWE and UFC. He had drawing power unlike those others and it's absolutely foolish to ruin his credibility like that by having him job his very first match back.
ReplyDeleteGoldberg was a WCW guy but should he have been put over most of the WWE roster and gone on a tear like he did in WCW? Absolutely because it's fucking GOLDBERG and people will pay to see that shit. And when it comes time for Goldberg to return the job to one of HIS fresh faces he wants to put over, Goldberg can ride off in the sunset with a hefty payday and WWE will have a new star and both parties are happy. That's how wrestling works, or should anyway.
Why exactly would that be bad business? He is putting over the guys that will be with the company for years. Sounds like good business to me. I don't think he should lose to everyone on the roster because obviously it will stop meaning anything but that loss to Cena didn't hurt any rub Lesnar can give to others.
ReplyDeleteAhh, yes. WrestleMania. The big picture. Why bother trying to increase your ratings and buyrates at the 10 pay-per-views before then? That would be like, a business strategy. And a way to keep your fans coming back for more than one big show.
ReplyDeleteObviously what they're doing is the way to go. That we're even questioning a company that can't keep its stock from falling is poppycock.
I was thinking this same thing after the match. Vince is honestly more concerned with getting revenge than making money. Brock walked out on him and needs to pay his dues again. Which is so utterly retarded it defies logic. I just wonder how they convinced him to do the job.
ReplyDeleteRock is a WWE guy threw and threw. He left on good terms and has always said good things about the company since becoming a big hollywood star. Not that Brock has said bad things about wwe but he left so suddenly Vince was obviously pissed. Plus they have been promoting Brock as a UFC guy and Brock even wrestled in his UFC gear this is actually less surprising than it seemed on Sunday.
I actually applaud Brock for getting pissed after that match. It was said that he felt Cena doubled crossed him but I bet he felt the whole company had but he couldn't blame Vince or they'd just fire him and he'd lose his 5 million. But the only reason he agreed to doing the job was because Cena was supposed to be so battered that he couldn't walk out. I'm sure Brock was thinking that Cena may not just decided to say something on his own but maybe was told before hand to do so.
If i'm Brock I refuse do anymore jobs
I wouldn't refuse to do jobs, because that's no way to be, but from what I've heard, he's piled up his money and has no need to keep making more. I'd just leave.
ReplyDeleteNext month, Brock will take on Randy Orton because Orton will reveal that nine years ago, Brock stiffed him with a $300 bill at the restaurant and only tipped $20. Guest host will be Kat Dennings, who will be in character from her show "2 Broke Girls." The contrarians will argue "who cares if this is the gayest fucking story they've ever come up with?! WRESTLEMANIA IS IN NINE MONTHS!"
ReplyDeleteWell wasn't Scott's plan to have Lesnar dominate the entire main event roster, from Cena to Punk to Sheamus to Orton, only to have him fall to the Rock at WrestleMania? The whole purpose of that plan would be to pop a huge WrestleMania buyrate. Yet you've sacrificed your roster to a guy who won't be around after Mania, and the only person to beat him is also a guy who won't be around after Mania. Who's left? All those guys who got dominated. That's as short sighted as anything else.
ReplyDeleteBut Cena is not the future of the WWE and in the company for years. Cena is actually the biggest star of the last 7 years and he has to pass the torch for the new guys. And Lesnar is basically the "new guy" who will be there for the next year (I hope) to make the money for the WWE. Cena is only making movies who nobody cares about.
ReplyDeleteI don't mind the loss to Cena.....but I pretty much agree with the consensus that it was way too soon.
ReplyDeleteMillions of dollars are millions of dollars no matter how much money you have...
ReplyDeleteThe better business is making him look like an unbeatable, invincible monster and then having guys go over him.
ReplyDeleteCena isn't retiring anytime soon, why does he have to pass a torch to anyone at this point?
ReplyDeleteExactly. The Austin/Bret double turn was a perfect model for this. They could easily have walked out of ER with all of the smarks cheering Cena and booing Lesnar. That would have seemed impossible.
ReplyDeleteNo, pretending that one loss during a year long contract makes the whole thing a failure is poppycock.
ReplyDeleteBrock should put over WWE wrestlers...but not right away. The money is in the chase, in this case! There were people on this board who were legit afraid for Cena on Sunday. Fans in the arena looked terrified. There was a palpable suspension of disbelief that unified everyone (marks and smarks) against Brock for the first half of the match. Cena was about to become a true babyface. That rarely happens anymore; but that feeling died when Lesnar lost. At that point, even if Cena sold more than usual, it became business as usual. The money, in this case, was riding that sense of legitimate invincibility, that separated Brock from Ryback, for several months.
ReplyDeleteBut, this is the same company that had Lesnar doing goofy backstage comedy with Angle. We shouldn't be surprised.
Sure Brock was a homegrown guy, but he was in the WWE for what, not even 2 years? He entered the UFC in feb 2008 and stayed there until until the end of 2011, more than twice the time he spent in WWE and he spent most of his time there trying to live down his reputation as a pro wrestler! At least Rock showed up periodically in his long term absence.
ReplyDeletePut him over the veteran midcard guys for sure, Show, Kane etc. But no way in hell he should go over Cena. The consensus IWC opinion seems to be put him over Cena then build to a rematch where Cena gets his win back. Which essentially means your paying 5 million dollars for one match (albeit a huge match I admit), but in the meantime your sacrificing in all likeliness the guys who are going to be your long term draws, Punk, Bryan etc for the inevitable one sided matches to make Brock look a monster just to set him up for that ONE match. Cena's jobs should be saved for the guys who are going to be the E's long term top guys ala Punk.
Shit Brock got destroyed by Cain, and his next fight with Reem still did huge business, it isn't that hard to build the guy back up. HHH, now he is a guy that should put Brock over, but the future should never be sacrificed for the sake of a primadonna like Brock whose in town for a few dates. And the magic of Goldberg was long gone by the time he got to the E, IMHO, not to mention a guy who like Brock could give a fuck about the business which is always going to end up trouble in the long term.
Yeah, Brock is no Chris Jericho. He didn't come back because of his love of the company or to put someone over like Jericho is doing for Punk. Brock came back for the money. But I'm sure he wasn't planning on being a JTTS to make that money.
ReplyDeleteBecause they need new stars desperately! Everybody complained about WCW why they didn't made new stars and had Hogan too long on top - and now after 7 years of Super Cena it is just time to put new guys on his spot - even when the new guy is an "old" guy like Lesnar. Whereas "old" is not quiet true, because I think Lesnar is some months younger than Cena.
ReplyDeleteIf there's one thing I've never accused John Cena of being, it's unprofessional, but I'd certainly call him that if Cena's post-match promo really was unplanned and he decided to do it as a shoot without telling Lesnar about it:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.411mania.com/wrestling/news/236295/Brock-Lesnar-Throws-Tirade-Following-Extreme-Rules-PPV,-Thought-Cena-Double-Crossed-Him.htm
I mean, if he really was going on vacation for a couple months and wanted to say goodbye to hsi young fans, I can understand him wanting to do that, but since he was immediately booked into a new feud the following night and doesn't seem to be taking time off, that promo served NO PURPOSE! At least wait until the show is off the air first.
Exactly, I don't know why almost everybody is complaining that just because WWE isn't writing the fucking screenplay to Rocky 7, they're somehow wasting Lesnar. There are a million reasons why WWE fucks things up creatively, but having Cena barely beat Lesnar after Lesnar looked like a million bucks in his first match back isn't one of them.
ReplyDeleteHis record in the UFC at one point also read 0-1. UFC is actually a great example, in a sport where losses actually matter, they can still make fights like Rampage-Rashad and Shogun-Hendo big deals despite those guys suffering huge losses in the lead up to those fights (and no I don't mean the immediate match prior).
ReplyDeleteAdmittedly Silva, GSP, and Jones are probably the biggest draws and they dont lose often, BUT, their not fucking leaving in a years time either!!
(unless those Spider retirement rumours are true)
Some people seem to think the Lesnar backstage reaction was leaked intentionally and is a work. I actually disagree this time, for once. The Cena promo did not fit at all with the story told on Raw (Cena won the battle, but lost the war) so I tend to think it really was unplanned and Lesnar freaked out in earnest.
ReplyDeletePS: Who the fuck was in charge of calming him down backstage? Jesus, I wouldn't want that job.
Wow, that's the first I've heard that. I thought it was a testament to Brock's greatness in that match that I was actually marking out for Cena to beat the sadistic monster heel, and I was actually perfectly okay with the way things went down. But yeah, if that's really how things went down, and this isn't another "is it a work or shoot?" angle, that just makes Cena look more like the whiny, unprofessional loser people have been accusing him of being since he started commenting on Rock's career path.
ReplyDeleteYeah, I never really liked Scott's plan, and it felt as it was largely because the guy is a big mark for Brock.
ReplyDeleteThe way that Lance Storm outlined it sort of makes sense-that the WWE needed to have some kind of guarantee in case Brock ended up flacking out in the middle of his contract.
I think the IDEA of bringing Brock is was much more appealing to everyone than any kind of execution that could come out of this.
Then the next night (or whenever they hit a smarkish crowd, which is more often these days) the fans would've booed Cena like always.
ReplyDeleteOne night, one match isn't going to change peoples' feelings towards John Cena.
Just like how Austin's face turn was a gradual one leading up to WM13, not something that happened cause of a kickass match. Listen to that crowd. Austin was a face at the beginning. So was Bret. Bret turned heel, nothing changed for Austin.
This.
ReplyDeleteCan't believe the amount of crying people are doing over a guy who was never as big a deal as the WWE, Brock himself, and hell even Scott made him out to be.
Somebody who isn't even on the radar yet could be a mega-star by Wrestlemania time next year thanks to a programme with Brock. Remember when Austin called out Bret and went to to toe with him for months, same situation, Vince should have someone ready and willing to make a name for himself at Brock's expense and Brock should lay his ass down.
It's all a work.
ReplyDeleteI can't judge you for falling for it. I fell for the Rock/Cena stuff, but if you follow them on Twitter you'll see all those backstage "reports" were bullshit.
This is what they do now. Breaking kayfabe online is the new kayfabe. Just like how in 1998 breaking kayfabe on screen was the new kayfabe.
I don't buy it. If Cena really went to town for himself, why on earth would they repeatedly show it on Raw the next night? And on their website?
ReplyDeleteThe only way I will possibly buy them doing a lame "worked shoot" angle is if it leads to an actual Cena/Lesnar MMA fight.
ReplyDeleteYeah I agree. Cena actually had the smark Chicago fans starting to cheer him. Even the dueling chants were dying down by the end. But Cena won and now everyone hates him more than ever. Having Cena not wanting to quit and having them stop the match. Maybe even having Laurinaitis come down and stop or Vince or HHH or something. They could have done the attack on HHH at the ppv instead of Monday. That would have kept the babyface heat for Cena that they are craving so much to continue to build unti Cena's return. Plus that gets Brock off tv for awhile as well. Cena actually did alot for this fued. Taking a ton of potato shots from Brock. Getting busted open hardway, (twice) but they lost all of that having Cena win than making his little speech.
ReplyDeleteNow I know why Brock didn't come out and attack Cena on Monday. Probably also why they made Cena's next fued with Laurinaitis.
Cena would literally die.
ReplyDeleteFor all the great things about him (the charity work, the tireless work ethic), he really is whiny and petty. That has been shown over the last six years regarding his comments about the Rock.
ReplyDeleteI don't listen to that radio show, how exactly do they "know" the reason for Brock losing. Do these guys have a great track record at getting these sort of things right? Are they like the Jay Glazers of pro wrestling, where they clearly have legit, higher up sources that are in Vince's inner circle? Or are they like those sports "rumourz" sites where they throw shit at the wall and make stuff up and highlight the 5% of the time they're right and ignore the countless times they're wrong.
ReplyDeleteI'm legitimately asking this question,
But he already was an unbeatable monster. Just look at the guy. People who had never heard of him or seen him before would think he was a monster. Why does he have to go over half the roster to establish that?
ReplyDeleteActually, the contrarians will be online fantasy booking and getting upset when the product doesn't reflect their genius.
ReplyDeleteWell, I don't understand it, but it's their money. If they want to spend $5 million to settle a grudge, why not? On the other hand, don't sit around and wonder why your top babyface is constantly being booed or why no one is paying your PPVs eleven months out of the year.
ReplyDeleteIf he loses to everyone, he will not be the monster.
ReplyDeleteThere is absolutely no way they would do that. There is no upside.
ReplyDeleteAnd did you hear the things he said about CM Punk over the summer? That he doesn't really care about the fans if he's willing to just win the title and leave the company?
ReplyDeleteSeriously man? It's not as if the guy spent six years constantly badmouthing the Rock. He mentioned it in, like, one interview and it hadn't been brought up again until the Rock returned. And it was only brought up again to lay the foundation of their feud.
But he only lost to one guy. One guy who is the biggest star in the company. One guy who he beat the hell out of.
ReplyDeleteAs much as I dislike seeing people criticized for simply being contrary to the popular opinion, I can't help but like this idea.
ReplyDeleteIt's funny, I've found myself defending a decision that I don't even agree with. I think Brock should have won. But the knee-jerk, hyperbolic "this is the WORST booking move ever" noise coming from this blog is killing me.
ReplyDeleteIt sounds to me that you guys do WAY too much fantasy booking, and it's killing your enjoyment of the product. In your mind you picture Cena doing the stretcher job and staying away for weeks/months. Never mind the WWE sees TONS of kids (aka "cash cows") decked head to toe in his merch and fears them losing interest and not coming to house shows if Cena isn't advertised. You see Brock murdering the main event crew, setting up his comeuppance way down the road (SvS at the earliest, WM at the latest). Disregarding WWE's very real concerns of Brock flaking out after destroying their top guys but before he can be beat.
Sometimes you act like fans, sometimes you act like WWE shareholders. I like 30 Rock, it's one of my favorite comedies. I don't give a fuck it's ratings poison and can't compete with 2 and a Hslf Men or Big Bang Theory. I just want to be entertained. And as an aside, I think Brock's drawing power is being blown WAY out of proportion. He's not a wrestling draw. The MMA fans who paid to see him aren't going to follow him to wrestling (the way if happened vice versa 4 years). I'm not saying he won't result in a bump for PPV buys, but he's no Rock.
Anyway, I guess I'm saying stop acting like this is the fucking Invasion 2.0. Like I said at the start, I agree with you in that I think it was the wrong move. Just simmer down with the sky is falling doomsday attitude. The man is signed for 12 months. He just finished his 1st one. As Lance Storm said, there's more than 1 way to skin a cat. This story doesn't have to crib from the Bane/Batman storyline to be entertaining, there are other ways. And no matter what happens, it won't be as good as what you imagined in your head.
Yeah, guys, stop having opinions and expectations. Nothing good can come of it.
ReplyDeleteNot sure if Scott used it in his review, but when HHH mentioned that no one person is bigger than the WWE, all I could think was "shoot comments not meant to be shoot comments..."
ReplyDeleteOr maybe it was, and was Vince's subtle FU to Brock and anyone else who thinks he's the show.
He'd been saying on Twitter for two weeks that they might be "forcing him out" or whatever so clearly it was intended to be something the WWE wanted to get out there.
ReplyDeleteI'm not buying it, everything we've EVER heard about the guy suggests that he's a soldier who will do whatever he's told.
Then why make this match in the first place? If I were Vince McMahon I would have waited for quite some time for this match and let him first fight against Randy Orton or so.
ReplyDeleteI think the Cena promo after the epic match (which now makes no sense and furthered nothing along)............along with Cena coming out acting like a grinning imbecile on Raw.....is what's ticking people off.
ReplyDeleteCongratulations on your self-appointment as Captain of Condescension.
ReplyDeleteThis is a comment board, if people want to vent or fantasy-book, so be it. You're commenting here too so it's no good acting like you're above everyone else.
but wouldn't you agree that there are a lot of people that seem to be instantly disappointed if something doesn't come together EXACTLY the way they thought it would be best?
ReplyDeleteExactly. It's the fact that he won't sell for even one night. I'm not expecting months and months, but keeping him off one PPV is unlikely to do long-term damage. In fact, him wrestling Johnny Ace is more likely to do that.
ReplyDeleteI don't disagree with this. Starting with Cena was a strange choice. If they had put Orton over Lesnar I could understand being upset.
ReplyDeleteI said twice in that post that I had an opinion on the booking, and that it was the wrong move. I just think people are going overboard with their criticism if it, and the long-term ramifications to the Lesnar story arc ("it's over, they've fucked it up beyond repair... shut it down").
ReplyDeleteI'm just suggesting that people simply watch the show and refrain from fantasy booking if THIS is the reaction they get when storylines don't follow the script in their head.
And I think some people are being unrealistic and naive thinking that the Brock situation is a black and white thing where there's 1 right way to do it and that's it.
I sincerely* apologize if you thought I was telling you and the rest of the guys to not have an opinion or any expectations for the sport they love and enjoy. Please accept my apology.
*Disclaimer: not really sincere
Couldn't agree with this more, and while people have the right to act/fantasy book however they want, or be completely pissed off or whatever, I'm just not ready to throw this away because of one loss that I don't agree with.. If after a few months it really turns out to be the same old thing, then I can just write off and not care anymore, who am I to tell them? I don't run a multi-million dollar company lol.
ReplyDeleteThe bottom line is that they had a chance to do something epic and they blew it. This could have been Cena's Andre if they had just had the balls to play it out say, oh I dunno, longer than four weeks maybe? From this point forward, no matter how they try to book it, Brock Lesnar is only one AA away from the job.
ReplyDeleteI don't know, they seemed pretty happily surprised by Bryan vs Sheamus. They also seemed pleasantly surprised by how Lesnar vs Cena was structured as a match - especially the brutally and length of the beating. Neither one reflected the fantasy booking circulating on the board leading up to the event. In fact, there are always dozens of different opinions on this board that manage to coexist in relative harmony. Every once in awhile, however, we get these storylines that strike a cord negatively with a long of people here. Were the critiques wrong regarding Ryder? They also seem to have tapped into a larger resentment towards Daniel Bryan's fate at Wrestlemania.
ReplyDeleteI am not sure what people are supposed to talk about on this board if not share their positive and negative feelings about the show and share their ideas about where they want the storyline to go. All they are doing is fulfilling the raison d'etre of this board...
I've made the same complaint that you have, and it looks like no matter what, he's not going to change....and I suppose it fits within his character to just completely joke/blow things off....sure to me it doesn't make him seem human, but maybe the kids love it, I don't know. I just don't let it bother me anymore, it is what it is unless something dramatic happens that changes it.
ReplyDeleteYuuupp....
ReplyDeleteI gave a sarcastic, kinda snarky reply to another poster, but this one is sincere: I really am sorry if that came off condescending. I don't think I'm above anyone else, I post here as often as anyone (I just don't do live threads, otherwise I'd be up there with ChinWins and cultstatus). But I think the reaction to this *one* booking decision is overblown. To me this storyline has been entertaining and I'm intrigued to see Brock/HHH.
ReplyDeleteI just think people fell too far in love with their own ideas to the point where they're blinded to the fact that what we've gotten has been very good.
You're right, to an extent. There's clearly a middle gorund here that will likely be reached in over time.
ReplyDeleteFor any Star Trek fans out there, this actually really reminds me of Voyager: Once you get over the initial disappointment at all the missed opportunities it is quite possible to enjoy many episodes as stand alones.
Granted, but I don't see how thinking the guy who is actively being pushed as a dangerous, unstoppable monster shouldn't be losing clean his first match in is somehow "fantasy booking".
ReplyDeleteI'm actually more annoyed at myself that I actually care about any of this stuff. To say that I've got far more pressing issues on my plate right now would be an understatement. And yet, here I am worrying about how WWE spends its money.
^ this
ReplyDeleteDon't be obtuse. SummerSlam is an example, and you know it. The "build up to" is the key phrase.
ReplyDeleteSomebody on another message board said I was complaining about this:
ReplyDeleteYou want to know why I complain? They build these guys up
and then they cut their legs off and it's terrible. They've done it to
Alberto Del Rio, The Miz and Mark Henry just to name a few. I am also
sick of all the heels being basic chickenshit heels with no real monster
heels anymore. I want another Big Van Vader and I want him in WWE. I
thought they were going to make Lesnar this MONSTER HEEL and make him
above everyone, not just another guy.
That is what is sad. They
stop these guys at the glass ceiling instead of letting them go through
it. That's why I get mad. It's because everyone is under CENA and they
are all in this little bubble and they can't get out of it unless they are told to. Brock is just
another guy in WWE instead of a giant unstoppable monster that somebody could have beaten at WM and you could have made A STAR!!!!, A CONTENDER!. A GUY WITH CLASS!
You
could have had WWE build Lesnar as this unstoppable badass who
steamrolls through the company with people scared to face him in the
ring. You have it where Ace's plan backfires and Lesnar is basically
destroying the company instead of legitimizing it. You can have
something put into place that Lesnar cannot be fired because it would be
breach of contract that Ace put into place so Triple H wouldn't fire
him and it would cost the company MILLIONS OF DOLLARS if that happens so
they can't get rid of him. Finally you have Undertaker, return to
stop Lesnar and send him packing at Wrestlemania.
I did tune in to RAW last night, but I turned it off after the Lesnar segment. I probably will stop watching for awhile.
I've found Cena a lot easier to stomach if I just view him as a guy with a mental disorder who doesn't know how to adequately reflect the emotion of a situation.
ReplyDeleteThey have sources, but it is sometimes unclear whether the sources are legit or trying to spread disinformation. And sometimes they do just guess at things. Their word is far from gospel.
ReplyDeleteWhere they messed up was last night......Cena was talking about Brock as if he was a past-tense threat...as if the feud was now completely over. When have we ever seen a feud get blown off so quickly? Brock's just content to go off and break HHH's arm with no concern over losing to Cena ? Cena just assumes Brock could never again be a threat to him?
ReplyDeleteThat was my comment, so I'll just reply to some comments here.
ReplyDeleteOf course Brock is going to be used to put guys over, eventually. It just seems a bit soon. Brock/Cena was a dream match, they ran it 3 weeks into Brock's return and had him lose. It looks like that's over and he's on his way to facing HHH. It's like they didn't get to have Brock lose to the top guys 8 years ago so they're going to job him to their top guys now just so they can say it happened. I made the comment because knowing how Vince is, I could absolutely see him being willing to spend $5 million and possibly take a loss on the whole deal just so the guys who didn't get to beat Brock 8 years ago can do it now.
Booking Brock should be easy. Have him kill guys and build up intrigue as to whether or not anyone can beat him. Build up opponents who might be able to, and have them lose until eventually someone defeats him. Of course he's going to put someone over, that's the point. He's just in a better position to put guys over if he has credibility. He had it, and now he's just another guy who might win, might lose. It's like the Kane - booking. Kane destroys people for a couple of weeks while the announcers question if anyone could ever beat this "monster". Then he loses the blowoff match. The next night he attacks someone and we spend another 4 weeks listening to the announcers wondering if anyone can beat Kane because he just chokeslamed 3 guys. Then he loses. Nobody's buying pay per views to see if Kane can be beat - we know he can, and probably will, be beat. It might seem ridiculous to compare Brock to Kane, but it's not. Booking wise, they've done the same thing thus far. They had him lose a big match, then had him attack someone the next night to get his heat back. Instead of "Can Triple H be the one to beat Brock?" it's "Can Triple H beat him to?".
So Lesnar leaves after a year, then what?
ReplyDeleteIt is not a shoot. It is never a shoot. Why does everyone always want everything to be a shoot so bad? It's wrestling for fuck's sake.
ReplyDeleteSomething popped into my head on the way home from work yesterday, and I didn't really put it into perspective until now. I was thinking about how long the Cena backlash has been going on, and my oldest memory of it is the dueling "Let's Go Cena/Let's Go Jericho" chants at Summerslam 2005. Summerslam 2012 is in less than 4 months.
ReplyDeleteThis has been going on for 7 years! UUnbelievable.
I don't disagree, I just didn't appreciate the tone, so thanks for clarifying. I don't do live threads either, for precisely the reason that it's hard to process considered thoughts that quickly (but also because I'm unwilling to stay up that late in the UK). Inevitably, if you read the comments here before watching Raw/SD/PPVs, the reality seems nowhere as heinous as you're led to believe.
ReplyDeleteThat said, in this instance I understand the frustration.
There are tons of guys like that, sure, that happens in every fandom. I try not to be one of those dudes and always try to maintain an even keel. I loved the ppv, loved WM, many of the decisions lately have been awesome. Some I've disagreed with, but what can you do.
ReplyDeleteNow, that doesn't mean that I can't think that putting Cena over is one of the dumbest decisions they've made in the last 10 years and I'm within my right to discuss it as long as I don't troll. We can all agree on this, right?
Jabber, did the follow up on RAW sway your opinion that this thing isn't headed in the right direction at this point?
ReplyDeleteRealdeal and Chin sort of agreeing on something?
ReplyDeleteDo my eyes deceive me???
*group hug* lol
HHH wins clean, and at the end of the PPV puts Brock in a wooden crate to be shipped to FCW, just like he did to the Spirit Squad.
ReplyDeletefirst rule: if it's on tv it is MEANT to be on tv.
ReplyDeleteThis is a great point Eric. I will always love Cena-Brock as a stand alone match. The brutality, the drama, etc. was superb. However, within the context of the angle and everything else, worse decision since Invasion.
ReplyDeleteI think the reason alot of adult fans dislike Cena is because they simply can't relate to him, or find a reason to idolize him. They related to Hogan because he was a "Real American", and he generally had a larger-than-life charisma. They related to Austin because they wished they could flip off their boss, drink beer, etc...and generally come off like a bad-ass.
ReplyDeleteThat is exactly the point that the apologists just don't get; "epic", "Cena's Andre". Is Brock jobbing going to make the product unwatchable (well, anymore than usual)? No, of course not. But that's not the idea, is it, to just maintain the status quo? None of us are fans of wrestling because of WWF circa '95. We're fans because of "epic", because of "Andre", because of Bret-Austin, because of the Summer of Punk, et al. We're fans because we got hooked at some point by wrestling at its best, and that's the level of entertainment value we're still chasing. And it's especially frustrating when that level is so obviously within reach, but they simply chose not to go there in favor of the status quo.
ReplyDeleteThat's why the Invasion is the perfect analogy. Something like Austin's rise was more complicated, and took a million seemingly unrelated dominoes falling to get there. No one would've faulted them for fucking it up, because we didn't even know what it was. But with the Invasion, as with Brock, it's so fucking obvious how to get there that it's inexcusable not to. You didn't need to be Jim Cornette to competently book the Invasion, or Brock, you just need to follow Wrestling Booking 101.
But instead, we've Cena-Laurinaitis main eventing the next PPV. And if that's the kind of horseshit that gets you to part with your money, God bless you, you're who's keeping WWE in business. Just don't recommend anything to anyone, ever, because you've got the fucking taste of a dog, giddy with whatever scraps fall off Vince's table.
I'm a huge mark for the HHH/Brock match-up, it's the one I was most looking forward to when Brock signed (cause of all the backstage stuff, plus they had never worked a program together). So I'm liking the direction they're taking with Brock and LOVED how the kimura is now the most over submission in WWE. I like splitting Brock and Cena up and revisiting it down the road. My one complaint (and it's a big one) was the Big Johnny heel turn. I know he was already a heel, but it was more of a subtle, Bill Lumburgh-esque kinda heel. And someone needs to explain to me exactly *why* he hates John Cena.
ReplyDeleteSo yeah, I'm digging Brock's direction but not Cena's (or more accurately, Ace's).
I'd agree with that. I liked him in 2003 but I didn't watch a lot of Smackdown. When he debuted on Raw, I was shocked at how lame he was. I guess that at that point in my life over-sized t-shirts down to my knees, visors, and the lame hip hop style just didn't appeal to me. There was this goof, dressed like an idiot and walking around like he was king of the frat house, and I was thinking "if I knew someone like that in real life I'd hate them". At the same time, he was against Jericho, who I've always liked, but who had more of a cool, more mature look and character. I was around 22 at the time, but even that seemed too old to relate to John Cena. On the flip side, I could see, and have seen, teenagers running around reenacting Cena's every move thinking they're cool as shit, so it's probably an age thing.
ReplyDeleteThat's the weird thing....I never hear teens or 20-somethings talk about John Cena. Whereas I used to see lots of NWO, Austin 3:16, The Rock and various other shirts back in the day.....i NEVER see teen or young adult males wearing Cena gear. In fact, other than at house shows....I never see ANYBODY in everyday life wearing Cena attire.
ReplyDeleteNot necessarily true. The Screwjob (both of them), the sign falling behind Mean Gene, the fan attacking Jericho, Regal/Goldberg, and Roma/Wright all come to mind.
ReplyDeleteI'd amend it to say: "if they center a recap video around it, it was meant to be on tv"
I'm blanking...both of them? Montreal and...
ReplyDeleteI just want to declare, loudly and proudly, that I grew up with, and became hooked on, 1993-era Raw. I am also stoked to see a HHH/Brock program. If that means I have the taste of a dog, them bring on the fucking Kibbles N Bits!
ReplyDeleteMaybe the Mayans were right all along.
ReplyDeleteI'm from a small Canadian town. We're a bit behind the times here, but there's also no shortage of adults willing to show off their wrestling favorites...and I can count on one hand the number of times I've seen Cena merchandise here or in surrounding areas, including big cities, over the last few years. I still see Austin or nWo shirts around, but never anything with Cena on it. The "older fans don't like Cena" thing isn't a myth or specific to wrestling crowds at the shows. There might be a number of people who still tune in and go to shows to boo him, but there's a lot more who just stopped watching because he doesn't appeal to him. Even the people I know who still watch at best have no opinion on Cena and just tolerate him.
ReplyDeleteCena will again the top star like Hogan in 1991. :)
ReplyDeleteI read.
ReplyDeleteI laughed.
I clicked "Like".
The Wendi Richter/Moolah one.
ReplyDeleteAh, thanks. I'm only vaguely familiar with that one.
ReplyDeleteI missed this. They're saying Cena was supposed to do a stretcher job and decided to cut a promo instead? I didn't watch the promo...was there any hint that it may've been a last minute thing? Was there a stretcher brought out? Did Brock look surprised by any of this?
ReplyDeleteI'm pretty sure if the match ended with enough time for Cena to cut a promo to end the show than it was probably the plan all along.
Worse than Nexus losing at Summerslam?
ReplyDeleteKeep in mind Brock is leaving in less than a year and the odds of John Cena becoming a bigger deal than he is (if he's your choice to 'slay the dragon') is slim.
For me? Yeah, worse than Nexus, and that was pretty egregious. I guess I'm a bigger mark for Brock than I thought. It's just the potential of an over-arching story with Brock as Darth Vader and Cena as Luke could've been so compelling...c'est la vie.
ReplyDeleteI see teens and 20-somethings wearing CM Punk's white "Best in the World" shirt all the time. And this is in downtown Washington DC during the workday when everyone's is wearing suits! No one wears Cena gear except a few little kids when WWE comes to Verizon Center.
ReplyDeleteWouldn't suprise me if they told Brock one thing but intended to what we saw on camera all along.
ReplyDeleteI love all the people responding to this post about hyperbole with pure hyperbole.
ReplyDeleteSo the 'Attitude Adjustment' was really just a nod to his own mental disorder? When you think about it that way it's actually a clever name for a move.
ReplyDeleteI can understand the WWE wanting to get their money's worth out of Brock. They might have considered putting him over Cena to risky, given that Brock was given a huge push then walked away 10 years ago.
ReplyDeleteCena beating Brock does seem to close alot of doors tho.
When they were teasing the Lord Tensai/Cena feud last night, my first thought was "why bother." If Brock Lesnar can't beat Cena than A-Train has no chance.
Green mist + Johnny Ace > Being a former UFC champion
ReplyDeleteI wouldn't put my money on Cena, but I think people underestimate just how strong and tough he is simply due to his goofy personality and character. Sure, Brock is bigger, stronger, and more athletic, but a legit fight between the two could simply come down to who landed the first punch.
ReplyDeleteThat's a funny observation - I could definitely see Vince sending, say, Heath Slater and Trent Barreta to calm Brock down.
ReplyDeletePeople still give any credence to anything Alvarez or meltzer say? Lol.
ReplyDeleteYeah, that would be so stupid.
ReplyDeleteThat would be like booking AJ Styles to do a shootfight with Frank Trigg....wait a minute.
fair enough. but that's like a handful examples in more than twenty years.
ReplyDelete"real" shoots are very rare. and even rarer in WWE's modern surrounding.