Scott,
The concept of a 'glass ceiling' has been around for years. We used to throw the term around in reference to the Benoits, Jerichos, Guerreros, etc. of the world. Nowadays it seems to get used more in the context of the Rock vs. the Rest or HHH's ridiculous longevity. My question: is the concept the same today, or are we talking about something entirely different? Whereas we used to bemoan guys like Benoit and Jericho who seemingly had to wait forever to get their 'shot', we have seen a decade in which guys like Batista, Lesnar, Angle, Orton, Cena have been pushed really early as the next 'top guys'. (Not to mention more recent initial pushes that failed like Swagger, Miz, Sheamus, del Rio, etc.).
I would contend that today's 'glass ceiling' isn't a ceiling at all. There really isn't that 'established guys holding their spots' idea from previous decades. Whereas we used bemoan Undertaker and Kane's continued existence at the top, or HHH's ridiculously disproportionate push, while Benoit & Jericho toiled in the undercard, there really are not the same 'established guys' anymore. Undertaker, Rock, Jericho, and HHH are part-timers at this point and will likely occupy minimal air time after Wrestlemania. The Big Show, Mark Henry, and Kane's continued existence, though stagnant, isn't hurting anyone's push and they have always done business with a variety of different people. The guys who ARE top stars (Punk, Cena, Orton) have not hurt anyone's progress (like the stuff we used to say about Hogan or about HHH vs. Jericho, Hardy, RVD, Booker T. previously). Nowadays, I would say the separate brands, large amount of TV and PPV time, and the absence of top 'draws' locked into their spots (aside from Cena) makes WWE a wide-open landscape for that 'next big thing' to catch on.
This is all in theory, obviously, because their booking and creativity precludes that from happening. My point is only that the 'spots' are there to be had and that the only 'ceiling' is the one WWE imposes on its guys (for a variety of reasons discussed on your blog daily).
Very true. In fact the biggest limiting factor right now seems to be guys getting punished for arbitrary reasons, like having to do endless jobs because your half-brother just got fired, or being made into a jobber because you're REALLY good at doing jobs. A guy like Brodus Clay, who immediately caught on despite their booking, absolutely should have been able to shoot much higher than he did, but he's being artificially held back for reasons only Vince can fathom. But hey, he's the millionaire, so whatevs.
"The Big Show...isn't hurting anyone's push"
ReplyDeleteCody Rhodes would like a word with you...
Yeah...wasn't there just a huge post about Show hurting people. I don't agree, but it's funny to see that line pop up so soon afterwards.
ReplyDeleteI sort of think it's different categories of things, but guys just getting fed to Kane and Big Show isn't really doing Cody or Rider any favors.
ReplyDeleteif today booking philosophy would have been in place in 1998 Kevin Nash would have jobbed to Eddie Guerrero at one ppv but also get his win back at the next one resulting in both workers not getting any further.
ReplyDeleteThe rules are pretty simple: (a) don't date one of the Divas (Morrison, Miz); (b) don't be related to anyone who leaves the company (Cody Rhodes); (c) don't get a DUI (Alex Riley); (d) don't have outside career interests (MVP, Mickie James); (e) don't get too opinionated (Maria Kanellis, Carlito); (f) don't have too much confidence in your own ability while being constantly jobbed (London and Kendrick); (g) don't be in the wrong place at the wrong time (Finlay); (h) don't have the temerity to be too good at your job as you age (Jim Ross, Howard Finkel); and numerous others.
ReplyDeleteOf course, they also let people go for being poor wrestlers, attitude problems, and hazardous to themselves and others. Sometimes.
I don't think it's exactly the same anymore. Most of your more known wrestlers for "holding people down" are moving on with their careers and doing occasional feuds with established guys (i.e. HHH-Undertaker). I think the biggest problem is wrestling is becoming very bland. You don't have many guys left who stand out and you just become a die-hard fan. For the few Punks and Bryans, there are many, many Mizes and Swaggers who have the WWE-approved style that doesn't stand out in a crowd.
ReplyDeleteDespite my above line about Cody, I agree it's not completely the same. The glass ceiling is about the top guys actively holding other people down to the detriment of the business. In this case, I don't know that Big Show is playing politics backstage, it's just the shortsighted idiocy of the booking. At this point in his career, I could see Big Show being completely fine with l;aying down for COdy.
ReplyDeleteI don't agree that Brodus really caught on. Us message board posters seemed to like him but the crowd has mostly sat on their hands from what I have seen.
ReplyDeleteHe is already stale though and I fast forward through his segments.
There is still a glass ceiling, but for entirely different reasons.
ReplyDeleteIt used to be that a newer guy would have his legs cut out from under him because a bigger star felt threatened and convinced the promoter to do it. Now, newer guys have their legs cut out from under them simply because Vince doesn't want anybody creating waves and upsetting his John-Cena-T-Shirt-Machine business model.
Basically, the glass ceiling used to be in place due to the politics of the top stars; now, the top stars don't hold anybody down, it's just simply there because Vince is afraid of trying anything new.
I don't like him. Especially when I see Dolph Ziggler, who should be main-eventing now, jobbing to him.
ReplyDeleteYou know what's really depressing? It probably didn't take you that long to compose that great list.
ReplyDeleteExactly. while Cena and Orton may not hold people down with backstage politicking, Vince uses them to hold others down (orton not as much recently). vince controls the glass ceiling and uses guys like Cena, Orton, and let's face it all the part time guys like HHH, UT, Lesnar, and Rock to hold everyone else down. While the part timers may be engaging in feuds with each other, the WWE treats them as so far above anyone else than Cena that their mere presence ends up hurting the other talent (although probably not in the wallet) getting over and staying over. If you constantly tell the audience that Austin,Rock, lesnar, HHH, and UT are cooler, tougher, and better than anyon else even though 4 of them are old enough to be dads to the rest of the roster, then you can't be surprised when the audience perceives the rest of the roster as uncool, not tough, and not really better than anyone.
ReplyDeleteThe really frustrating thing is the exact reason Vince likely feels like he can push only those he wants to- the lack of a true competition- is the precise reason he should try different things. If WWE were to give a strong push to someone like Zack Ryder, even if it failed miserable, all the company has to do is top pushing him. It isn't as if there's going to be 500,000 people switching to another wrestling show. And maybe that's part of the problem.
ReplyDeleteAnd this is what's killing CM Punk, Last July he was the hottest thing in pro wrestling PERIOD. now his matches lose 100,000 viewers on the over run of Raw (the Tensai match). Punk's not main eventing a damn thing between TLC and that Raw showed he is still below Cena and whoever the fuck he is facing this month (see Kane at elimination chamber) so of course no one gives a shit about him and, by association, the WWE championship
ReplyDeleteHe was super over UNTIL they took him off TV the first time, he never got there again
ReplyDeleteI agree Dolph should NOT be jobbing to no one at this point
ReplyDeleteI still blame Randy Orton for Kofi Kingston not getting over like he should have. Kofi was insanely over, but then "STUPID, STUPID, STUPID" happened and Kofi hasn't sniffed a main eventer since.
ReplyDeleteTo think, this guy at one point pinned Orton at Survivor Series in less than ten seconds. Now? He's stuck with R-Truth as tag champs playing second fiddles to Brodus Clay.
Yeah, I agree- I think this is more just the residual "keep the giants looking tough" kinda stuff, nothing more. I think it's just one of those things that wrestling hasn't gotten around as kayfabe evaporated- they're huge so they don't lose much, separate from popularity, crowd reaction, Q rating, ratings or merch sales.
ReplyDeleteI miss the old days when winning a world title meant you get pretty much a permanent foothold being a main-eventer.
ReplyDeleteHe pinned CM Punk and Orton as was clearly being rocketed to the top. I'm with you 100%, I've never forgiven Orton for that, as I honestly thought Kofi was good enough in the ring and bringing it on the mic. That promo where he trashed Orton's new car was gold. I sat there dumbfounded afterwards...thinking "These fucking morons saddled him with a Jamaican accent because???"
ReplyDeleteSorry to threadjack, but I just wanted to share my THRILL of being tweeted at by CrankyVince
ReplyDelete2 things killed him for me:
ReplyDeleteThe embarrassing "Bridge Club" segment at WrestleMania, and feeding Dolph to him. There is absolutely no reason for Dolph to be shunted back down the card like this.
Is this Orton's fault though? I agree 100000000000% that Kofi should have won but was Orton actively campaigning for himself to get the win? Or was this one of those "getting over through losing a close, hard fought match to star" pushes by management that I hate?
ReplyDeleteI agree, and I still believe that Vince NEVER planned to put Punk on top. The shoot promo forced his hand, and that's left Punk with a half-assed main event push where he's the Champion and plays second fiddle to whatever Cena's doing, devaluing both Punk's value as a draw AND the WWE Title.
ReplyDeleteDid he ever use a Jamaican accent? I can't recall a promo when he did. Mostly because they never let him cut promos.
ReplyDeleteIn his intro videos before he debuted on the ECW show, he talked about cleaning up the Jamaican beaches, and he had a very typical Jamaican accent. I remember one of those videos ended with him dumping a loud-mouth in a garbage can. THAT was gold!
ReplyDeleteTwo of those actually seem like fair enough reasons for getting held down to me, though. Namely dating the divas (I'm just a strict "don't shit where you eat" guy) and getting a DUI, because really. The rest of those, however...smh.
ReplyDeleteI remember those videos but couldn't recall if he actually spoke in them. You're probably right, though.
ReplyDeleteOn the Kofi push thing, remember the brawl he had with Orton all over Madison Square Garden? That was awesome! Can't they throw the poor guy a bone? There's only so many tag, IC and US titles the guy can win before he NEEDS to be pushed to the next level!
Fucking Cena. I hate him more than I hated HHH during his dominant era.
ReplyDeleteIt's funny how he's Rikishi 2.0 but at least Rikishi got a push by being over via dancing to the point where he was an upper-card face and having matches with people who actually matter.
ReplyDeleteNo kidding. I hate Big Show. Actually, I hate all Wight guys.
ReplyDeleteA glass ceiling exists now, it's just not controlled at all by any of the wrestlers themselves. Vince has become terrified to let anyone catch on enough to become "bigger than the business" and yet both of his successful periods have come because the top guy became "bigger than the business".
ReplyDeleteIt's so weird. Every media/entertainment company in history tries to make their stars a crossover success...except WWE.
I assume youtube videos are still okay to link, since there more or less public domain. Here is the video i'm referring to.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rXNz5CtLAB8
Just for a reference, here are the people who have been contracted under WWE for longer than 5 years (not counting people who have had extended leave)
ReplyDeleteUndertaker
Nov-90
Triple H
Apr-95
Kane
Apr-97
Big Show
Feb-99
Randy Orton
Apr-02
John Cena
Jun-02
Rey Mysterio
Jun-02
Mark Henry
Aug-03
The Great Khali
Jan-06
Hornswoggle
May-06
CM Punk
Jun-06
The Miz
Jun-06
Zack Ryder
May-07
Santino Marella
Jun-07
Cody Rhodes
Jul-07
Kofi Kingston
Dec-07
JTG
Mar-08
Ted DiBiase
May-08
Evan Bourne
Jun-08
R-Truth
Jul-08
Interestingly the top 7 are people that the web seems to complain about most, and the people that debuted between 2007 and 2008 are the ones that the web wants have a push. One would make a completely unscientific conclusion that 4-5 years in a company seems to be the sweet spot for popularity. After that people begin to get sick of you.
Ron Garvin would like to speak with you........
ReplyDeleteThe thing was, the DUI happened long before Alex Riley got his singles push. It was the one week they took him off television that killed him.
ReplyDeleteAt least HHH would sell for people once in awhile.
ReplyDeleteIt's funny they want to keep Big Show strong NOW, as opposed to back in 2002 when he lost to Spike Dudley a couple of times.
ReplyDeleteSupposedly Kofi messed up a spot & stiffed him or whatever and Orton went to the back crying about how he doesn't know how to work. Same shit he pulled with Kennedy and several others. Fuck that brown-noser asshole.
ReplyDelete2003-2006 were the prime years for calling up almost everyone from OVW. I really never blamed them for dumping OVW as a development territory because only a handful of their trainees actually made any impact in the WWE. Batista and Orton definably, Cena as well, though he originally came up through UPW. Benjamin and Haas, and Matt Morgan(to a degree with TNA) were moderately better. But La Resistence, Eugene, Nowinski are a few examples of the lesser side. Plus, Mark Henry and Big Show were both sent down there to improve and lose weight with almost no success.
ReplyDeleteOh, they want their guys to crossover... into WWE Films. Or WWE Music. Or WWE WhateverVinceHasDecidedIsAGoodVentureThisWeek. They want control over the talent, which I'm sure is included within the contracts guys are currently signing (a "you-can't-work-for-other-media-companies-without-us-signing-off" clause).
ReplyDeleteI think in the end, the whole concept of 'the glass ceiling' is kind of a markish idea and a discussion point for when your favorites are not on top of the company.
ReplyDeleteI'm certainly guilty of crying it myself, but in the end I don't think we'd be as adamant about it if we weren't so invested in the characters/wrestlers that we're complaining about. We like someone and so we think that they should have a more prominent role -- but I'm not sure if the 'typical' characteristics of a wrestler the so called "hardcore fan" becomes enamored with always translates well into making good business sense. Surely it always good business sense to create new stars, but I see that as a separate issue. Some wrestlers are just not stars.
One thing that is funny about wrestling (and maybe this is true of human nature) is that promoters always seem to take the path of least resistance. Bret Hart was always over in the WWF, but Vince didn't really give him the push up to that next level until he absolutely had to, in the wake of the steroid scandal and their musclebound image. He was similarly forced to come up with a new cast on top in the late 1990s as well -- it was that or go out of business. WCW had the issue of continually revisiting the NWO and it's zillion incarnations, since it had made so much money for them.
It seems like the WWE now, with no competition is maybe the first instance of a wrestling company having the financial luxury of trying new guys on top without much worry of someone sneaking up and pulling the rug out from under them. Yet we still see these long periods of staleness on top, just as we've seen historically.
Cena/Punk is the modern day version of the Ultimate Warrior/Hulk Hogan in 1990. Warrior was the champion, but he always played second fiddle to Hogan, much the same way Punk does with Cena.
ReplyDeleteI think the slight difference is that Show is ruining guys' characters, but simply being used as a tool to ruin guys' characters.
ReplyDeleteHa! Well, I did say "pretty much", implying there were SOME exceptions...
ReplyDeleteI understand your point, but you don't agree that Vince sees certain guys at one level and no one else can seem to get there? As I said in my other post, when you continually remind the fans how much better and cooler Austin and Rock were back in the day than the guys today, it is gonna stick. When you continually remind the fans that despite being old HHH and UT can still kick anyone's ass, it's gonna stick. When you constantly remind the fans that Cena and Orton are that much cooler and better than everyone else, it's gonna stick. I mean I realize that sometimes wrestling fans are big on conspiracies, but what about Miz? Punk? Bryan? Kofi? The list of guys who have seemingly smacked into the glass ceiling is long. I don't know how much of it is not having a certain look, not acting right backstage, whatever silly reason we often hear or how much of it is Vince seemingly being absolutely petrified to push anyone other than his very established stars above a certain level. Whatever the reason I just don't think you can deny there is definitely a glass ceiling or a pecking order that is impossible to break out of. It reminds me of the old WCW criticism about how your spot was you spot, regardless of what you did. That seems to be the way it in WWE and I wonder how much longer they can milk Cena, Orton, and a bunch of has-beens and part-timers before the ratings erode a little faster than the slow leak that is currently occurring.
ReplyDeleteSpeaking of crossing over, did anyone else find it hypocritical that Triple H was able to come out with Floyd Mayweather for his fight, but CM Punk wasn't able to come out with an MMA fighter for his fight?
ReplyDeleteTriple H may have granted some lower mid-carder the occasional near-win, but his actual feuds were a detriment to all who faced him.
ReplyDeleteThere was no payoff, no light at the end of the tunnel, just Triple H merrily informing you that "your kind" were meant to dance, nothing more -- and then he'd win in the end. Or Triple H would accuse you of being a necrophiliac -- and then he'd win in the end.During the Reign of Triple H, he was like every 80s movie Evil Blond Man rolled into one, Alpha Betas and Combra Kai combined, only in the end, it wasn't the underdog who won, it was Triple H, always Triple H.
Great point made in the email. I would say that today, WWE is less interesting because there aren't enough established main event stars. I remember turning on a rare RAW a few years ago and seeing "some guy" called Jack Swagger, then "some lame dude" called The Miz, and then another guy called Alberto Del Rio. I was like, "who are these dopes?" It's cool they're willing to let anyone run with the title, but it has its drawbacks when they aren't as interesting as mid-carders in say 2000-2003.
ReplyDeleteIt is really getting to the point where it doesn't matter what they do anymore. They royally screwed themselves going to PG and have been suffering ever since. That is why now they feel they have to bring back guys like the Rock and Lesnar to make money. I feel in the end it
ReplyDeletewon't matter as they will cease to exist in about 5 years or so.
I doubt it. USA is not dropping it and the McMahons have enough money that even if they take the company private again, will continue on in perpetuity.
ReplyDeleteThe first, and hopefully last, time that Punk will ever be compared to Warrior. I'd have gone with the always popular Savage/Hogan analogy.
ReplyDeletePG is not helping, but you can certainly write compelling television even within TV constraints. If the current product was logical but boring, I'd say okay, PG is the problem. But its incoherent, sloppy, stupid, careless, and lazy. That's not PG doing that.
ReplyDeleteI remember back during the Monday Night War, WWE's big selling point was that they don't censor the fans, they listen to the fans, bring your signs, cheer for who you want, and the audience will determine the direction the company goes in because it's about what we want - in retrospect I feel pretty stupid for buying into that bullshit.
ReplyDeleteMatt Morgan seems like the perfect guy to come back (hopefully with a workable gimmick) now that his TNA contract is due to be up. He might have to get in line behind Ryback, Brodus and Ryan for a spot but I can't be the only one who would like to see what he's got over the other 3.
ReplyDeleteYou know, I guess I do agree with that. I was definitely thinking of it more in terms of the 'conspiracy' theorists always turning to it when some greater worker who can't do anything else isn't getting a push. Vince definitely gets it in his head that people are at certain levels and they end up stuck there. I shouldn't have said that I don't think it exists, as clearly it does, but I think fans get out of control with it, and constantly harp on it with every single guy.
ReplyDeleteI think Punk for example has 'star' written all over him and if there is anyone who has a case for it, it is him. He's shown he has the tools, he's just booked poorly enough at times that it hurts his viability.
Booker T is another guy who got stuck IMO, certainly in WCW until the end of their run and also in the WWE.
On the other hand, someone like Benoit to me was never really going to be "the guy" in either company, I don't think there was ever a glass ceiling holding him back from greatness -- he was ALWAYS great at what he did best, which was wrestle. His time on top of both organizations was well-deserved and a nice little tribute to his hard work, but he was never a star in my eyes, just a solid upper mid-card guy.
I agree for the most part. But, for me, the main factor is general fan response. The "Benoit is not a star" argument was based more on preconceptions of what a "star" is supposed to be. Both in WCW (1997/98, and again in 99) and the WWF/E (2000, 2001, 2003/04) Benoit proved his ability to create a connection with the audience and sustain a high level of popularity. If the Steve Austin/Hulk Hogan version of "stardom" is the only standard, then HHH and John Cena are equally unworthy of their superstar status.
ReplyDeleteThe "glass ceiling" argument is more about the WWE seemingly ignoring the responses certain wrestlers get until that positive feedback dissipates. Then, retroactively, we get the "he wasn't going to be a big star, anyway" excuse. It is just kind of sad when the glass ceiling is completely institutionalized and not the result of purely selfish politics.
It's crazy to remember that the Kofi/Orton angle happened THREE AND A HALF YEARS ago and yet Kofi is still buried in midcard hell. I don't even remember thinking Kofi's "blown spots" (or whatever it was) were that bad. And Orton is the last guy who should be complaining about this --- Orton of 2003-04 was way greener and clumsier than Kofi circa 2008. Remember that infamous spot when Orton totally whiffed on RKOing Jericho (who had Batista or someone in the Walls) and then had to run back and repeat the spot for the finish? By Orton's logic, that blown spot should've kept him buried until early 2008.
ReplyDelete" It is just kind of sad when the glass ceiling is completely institutionalized and not the result of purely selfish politics."
ReplyDeleteSo much this.
...but see I don't even agree with that. In the case of the former, Vince of all people has no place holding talent down for banging the divas. The man has admitted in interviews to being unfaithful in his marriage with his own employees. As for the latter, yeah Riley committed a crime. But he's had to deal with it personally for a number of years. I've known people who got DUIs. It's not pay a fine once and done. The process they went through took a number of years to clear up, if they were even able to clear it up. Either fire the guy because he displayed poor character or move past it. Don't jerk him around because you're wishy-washy on the whole subject. Especially in a company that gave both Ken Patera a push in the '80s and Bryan Adams a push in the late '90s based on the fact that both had been arrested for real.
ReplyDeleteExcept he was right about Kennedy.
ReplyDeleteAnderson's largely horrid TNA run has proven that. Considering that Crimson has better performances than Anderson, that's definitely a flashing neon sign that he's horrible.
Couple of times? More like a dozen.
ReplyDeleteNot to mention he also lost to Goldust, Tommy Dreamer, Billy & Chuck, 3 Minute Warning and a pre-main event cred Jeff Hardy.
Funny how they wait until the guy's career is pretty much over to start protecting him.
Well I don't fault Benoit for not being a Hogan or Steve Austin, or even silly superficial stuff like 'being too small', as lots of guys overcame that -- it seems only Vince believes that a small guy is less attractive than a less skilled big guy.
ReplyDeleteI just mean that he could go in the ring, but he couldn't really talk or give a consistent promo I don't think you can be a top guy in any wrestling organization for more than a vanity reign or two without that skill or without a gimmick that necessitates you not needing it (Undertaker). He was able to connect to a smarky crowd, in a good angle in a WrestleMania match, but that's about as much of a softball as you can possibly throw at a guy.
"The man has admitted in interviews to being unfaithful in his marriage with his own employees."
ReplyDeleteI wonder if during their feud Orton ever complained to people about Vince "working stiff"?
I still disagree, but I definitely see what you're saying.
ReplyDeleteI guess so. I think that legitimately applies to some (e.g. The Miz) who are seemingly quite limited and require ridiculous booking to keep their legitimacy. But, there have been so many long-term main eventers that have been far from perfectly well-rounded wrestlers. Bret's interviews pre-1997 were good, but hardly exceptional. Sting could never cut a coherent promo and had his biggest run in the 1990's by not saying anything. Goldberg nearly transcended the sport without cutting a single good promo. The question is whether or not said wrestlers have the ability to connect, and then to play to their strengths. Undertaker couldn't talk or wrestle for the early part of his run, but the character, booking, and his conviction in the role put the whole thing over.
ReplyDeleteNot to mention, just because you don't become a 10-time champion with 1000 days of title reign under you doesn't mean one can't be a consistent main event force. Benoit was actually lucky in the WWE in that they never let him lose his badass legitimacy completely. Even in the upper midcard, he was a tough out for any main eventer (his role in putting over Batista is sadly overlooked). Nowadays, Ziggler can have 2 very long US/IC title reigns, challenge for the world title, and then job to a sideshow act in 5 minutes a couple months later.
Maybe the "glass-ceiling" isn't the best analogy. It's kind of like getting bumped up to first-class on a flight. It's fun, you indulge in it and feel like a big shot for a few hours, but you know you aren't really a high roller and you don't really belong. The WWE has been bumping people up from coach for a few years, but for the most part, first-class is just Cena sitting there practising his dorky smiles.
Yeah, I suppose like anything else it comes down to subjective opinions at some point and is open to interpretation.
ReplyDeleteI always felt like Bret was eons better than Benoit on the mic, even pre-1997, but even Bret is a good example of someone that Vince didn't feel any need to push until he had to -- and as soon as he got Hogan back he shunted him down the card. Once that tanked and Luger failed to drum up interest, he gave him back the belt, just until Diesel and then he was wrestling dentists and pirates on the mid card. When Diesel power ran it's course, Bret got the belt back just long enough to keep it warm for Shawn and so on and so forth. To me Bret seemed like a star at the time, but I think you could make the argument that he was in the same position as a Benoit -- talented in many ways, but perhaps not in those intangible ways that make big money in wrestling.
I like the first-class analogy and I think that's a better way of characterizing this than the 'glass ceiling'.
Don't blame Cena. Blame Vince.
ReplyDeleteI'm completely oblivious to it, but what did Finlay do? Unless wrong place, wrong time equals Hornswaggle.
ReplyDeleteDon't feel stupid. Back then, Vince had no choice. If you think about it, the infamous story of Zack Ryder is the biggest example of the difference. If Ryder had gone out back in 1998, when McMahon was in the fight of his life, and created a character out of whole cloth that used media streams that Vince had never heard of but had untouched profit potential, he would have been prostrate on his knees waiting for some premium broski protein shake nightly. He could have cleaned himself up with $100 bills afterwards. You think that they wouldn't have said 'holy shit, this guy's getting us into places that WCW is only dreaming about, let's push him to the moon'?
ReplyDeleteThere's been a lot of talk about whether or not Ryder deserved or would have sustained his push with what was, essentially, a joke character that evolved into more than that eventually. That's debatable, sure, but no one with a rational sense of objective logic can look at his character and storyline progression over the last 6 months and say that he's in a better place now than he was. But there's no place for him to go, no place for him to say 'fine, you don't want my dog and pony show? I'm taking my twitter account and going to Atlanta, and you can kindly fuck off' anymore. And no, TNA doesn't count. It's not a slam at the company, honest, but they aren't legitimate competition for WWE, and might never be when it comes to the production and the sphere of influence they hold over the viewing public, irrespective of their subjective booking woes.
Don't believe that? Chris Jericho. Better worker than Ryder? Sure. But don't try to even argue that the characters weren't similar as hell when it comes to the space that they occupied on the wrestling landscape, AKA 'comedy character that goes completely over the top' in certain situations. And WWE tried like HELL to get Jericho. Why? Because he had a unique fanbase that they thought was expandable and marketable on a bigger scale. And that didn't come from WCW booking, that came from Jericho himself. Ryder did the exact same thing, except what he did was even more impressive; he got his character over without even wrestling! That's how amazing his social media work was - Jericho, while a great talker, got over for his ringwork just as much. Ryder never even had that chance.
Mark my words - Vince would have been salivating over Zack Ryder.....in 1999. It's 2012 now, and with no competition, he isn't a slave to the fans anymore. He's in a position to tell us what we want, not the other way around, because we can't see what's on Nitro anymore. I GENUINELY think that the Vince back then really was willing to let the fans run his company because he didn't have the choice before; now that he does, we'll have to pry it from his cold, dead fingers.
and they didn't even actually do it back then.
ReplyDeletewhich really makes more sense. because despite Cena being a good worker (face it, he is) Punk is still at least one level above him in terms of workrate.
ReplyDeletealthough I guess the argument for that would be that Mayweather is someone who has already appeared in WWE programming etc.
ReplyDeletethat's why I don't think that Kingston is stuck in the midcard as some sort of punishment. I mean, for everything we know it might have been one of those instances in which Vince didn't want to push him for some reason but one or several guys backstage convinced him to give it a try (if the reports are remotely true then this kind of stuff happens all the time). after it had "failed" Vince felt he was right in the first place and the result is Kingston being a WWE midcard guy for life.
ReplyDeletethats the "beauty" of the secondary titles not meaning anything. even if he becomes the Intercontinental champion for eight more times, there still won't be an urgency for the promotion to push him further.
ReplyDeleteAs I recall, Finlay was working as a road agent when at a house show in front of some military people when they had Miz interrupt the national anthem to get heat.
ReplyDeleteYeah I don't think it was the DUI, as that occurred well before his feud with Miz. Funny thing is, he still gets some decent face pops despite being buried.
ReplyDeleteYeah, I know that Orton supposedly has a reputation for bitching to people backstage about bad workers, but didn't Kennedy drop him on his head/back like one day after Orton had already been injured? I think that was the last straw wasn't i?
ReplyDeleteand the fact that they felt the need to let Nash interject his broken down self all because he is HHH's buddy and as well as the fact they were doing that on purpose to Punk is mind boggling
ReplyDeleteI feel there's more than meets the eye with that situation, maybe Kofi didn't want to "carry his bags" or some bs (sadly I think that may also be innuendo for something else....nevermind) yeah with both of them on the same brand at any time, I feel Kofi will NEVER get his true push.
ReplyDeleteWell, he does have that swank intro music. I pop for it a little each time.
ReplyDeleteThat was the reason given, yeah.
ReplyDeleteGreat points. Dead on with yet another "If only WCW were still around" moment.
ReplyDelete