Hi Scott,
I was wondering what your opinion on losing streak gimmicks are. A buddy of mine on another message board go back and forth on them and he doesn't think they really harm guys that much while I think they're a terrible way to get a guy over. He references Sheamus as a guy who got rebuilt after a losing streak gimmick while I've referenced guys like Matt Hardy and MVP as guys who a losing streak angle has hurt. Here's our exchange.
Him--and, btw, I think you are wrong about the losing streak gimmick. Didn't hurt sheamus last year and I don't think it's going to hurt miz this year. it only hurts if management perceives your character as a loser. I also think ziggler jobbed more than miz did these last 3 months.
Me--Ziggler is never portrayed as a loser though. They don't mention that he loses all the time and they always talk about how Miz hasn't done jackshit all year since Mania. When they make it the focus of your character, it hardly ever works. Most of the time a guy gets a losing streak gimmick, the writers play it up like they're going to pay it off, they move onto a new guy and forgot about the losing streak guy and he's stuck in jobberville. You can rehabilitate a guy's character and rebuild him but it's an uphill process. It's a little easier nowadays to do so but there are still way more effective ways to get a guy over or build a storyline for him than having him lose week after week.
Was curious to see what your thoughts were. You can also throw this out as some fodder for the blog.
Well they sure didn’t build Undertaker into a giant star off a 20-0 losing streak gimmick at Wrestlemania, that’s for sure.
Here’s the thing: A losing streak can work as the buildup to a bigger payoff, IF the guy is someone who isn’t going to be hurt by it. John Cena is already bulletproof and has been on top for years, so dropping four or five PPV main events in a row isn’t going to do much to hurt his drawing power. Saying “a guy wasn’t hurt by it” is far from the same as “he was helped by it.” Sheamus recovered from it because they pushed the FUCK out of him once they got bored of beating him, and because he’s BFFs with HHH and thus gets protected.
I agree with the “me” portion of the argument. Miz has been destroyed and if it wasn’t for his gig with the Marine you’d think he was wrapping up his employment with the company. He desperately needs two or three months off to change his look up, find a new twist on the gimmick, switch shows, whatever. Honestly, if I was WWE I’d just buy ROH and use it as a feeder system, so that they could send their C-level “main eventers” somewhere to legitimately be perceived as main eventers and recover from losing streaks. Like, can you imagine the ROH super-smarks losing their minds if Miz came in and challenged Davey Richards? He would literally be the biggest heel in the history of the promotion instantly. He would be everything that their fans HATE about wrestling, the fake pre-packaged media-friendly reality show star with a lame catchphrase, and it would instantly freshen up his character and give him some buzz again.
Anyway, I’m getting off topic here.
Otherwise, losing streaks always fail. As you noted, once you brand a guy as a loser, it’s incredibly difficult to rebrand him. It’s not tough to rebrand the PERSON, but rebranding the character is frequently a lost cause. It would be like if were trying to sell Spirit Squad Nicky as a future World champion – it’s a waste of time when it’s much easier to scrap the character and come up with “Dolph Ziggler” instead. And Ziggler is getting close to being dead, because he lost so much and now he only wins after interference from Swagger. You might as well just throw it all out and start from scratch again, he’s still young anyway. He can always go to Japan and get tattoos on his face – that always works, right?
The only time I can recall of a loosing streak working effectively is Mikey Whipwreck in ECW. It worked because he didn't have the look or size to be a threat when he started in ECW, but the genius was after never getting an offensive move in is when he finally did the ECW faithful popped for it. Although I think they went overboard with Mikey getting a reign with the ECW Title, he was a good partner for a wacky Cactus Jack and made him a popular underdog.
ReplyDeleteWWE had the chance to replicate this with Colin Delaney years ago and I was hoping he'd get a tag title reign with Tommy Dreamer, but instead they turned him heel on Dreamer before he got beaten by Dreamer and released.
I do agree though loosing streaks don't work with bigger guys who can work unless it leads to them snapping and developing a new mean streak as a pay off.
The "Me" portion of the argument was me. We had this conversation a few weeks ago but I'm still interested to see what others think so I'm glad Scott posted this.
ReplyDeleteJericho's losing streak in WCW worked. He kept losing, eventually started to show frustration, and then snapped. It explained his heel turn, and it establishes his heel character - we've seen him losing for months so we know he's not that good, but he believes he is and brags that he is.
ReplyDeleteWhile not a losing streak, Foley walking out on a match against Orton because he doesn't think he can beat him worked to. It really depends on where they're going with it. If the fans care about a guy, and he keeps coming up short, they can rally behind him if they believe in him. The key is to make people care about the guy in the first place, and point out that he's on a losing streak, like it's uncharacteristic. Having him quietly job for months at a time just establishes him as a loser and him losing isn't a big deal.
What we get now might be the result of tv writers writing for wrestling. In a regular tv show, there's various characters, and it's not uncommon for supporting characters to not be featured or not included at all occasionally. Sometimes they have story arcs about them, sometimes they're playing a supporting role, sometimes they're not involved at all. But with wrestling they still have to feature the character and put them on the show, but if they're not involved in anything significant at the time they just have them lose. And then in a couple of months when they write a new story for them they'll start to win again.
The Jericho situation is a good example of how a losing streak can work if it's followed up on.
ReplyDeleteI forgot all about Jericho's loosing streak and yes it was very effective because it led to Jericho actually having a reason to turn heel, rather than a random heel turn for the sake of it. I've always preferred heel turns that actually have some logic and reasoning to it.
ReplyDeleteAlso come to think of it TNA actually managed to pull of the loosing streak quite effectively with AJ Styles a few years ago. AJ lost a bunch of matches and questioned whether he should continue wrestling, even contemplating retirement. This led to Sting coming out and giving an emotional speech putting AJ over, which gave him a good rub and led to him winning the TNA World Title at the next Pay Per View.
Hate to be that guy but it is lose and losing. Sorry, just a pet peeve of mine.
ReplyDeleteIn very limited ways it can work. I don't mind it when it's used as a reason for, say, a comedy character to become a serious character (but the followup is important there).
ReplyDeleteThe problem is WWE does this all the time and it never means anything. They're doing it because Miz looked at someone funny one time or because they need to teach him humility or some stupid shit like that. It's counterproductive.
I'm thinking Miz's woes started around the time where he got sloppy in the ring and some guys got hurt, so in this case, it's more of a de-push than it is a losing streak angle.
ReplyDeleteFor me, losing streak angles only work if you have a face that loses wrestling "the right way' and finally snaps and starts cheating to win. Aside from that, Vince and his crew all have short term vision these days and things are forgotten too fast that if you're stuck in a losing streak angle, you're probably going to be fucked.
Thanks for correcting me as that is a bad grammar habit of mine.
ReplyDelete(slaps forehead repeatedly)
I really feel bad for Albert cuz he really did make a name for himself in Japan. Part of it is Creative trying to turn this monster into Muta 2.0 (without blading)
ReplyDeletesorry...bad attempt at humor.
Losing streaks dont work if the guy isnt made.
I remember a story from Jerry Lawler's book about how Shawn Stasiak was complaining about being made to go on a losing streak and look like a total joke all the time, and Lawler told him: "Don't worry, it just means that when you finally win a match, it will look like a very big deal".
ReplyDeleteWell, Stastiak never did win a match and just got released, and the entire point of booking him that way was to humiliate him for such mistakes as spoiling the WCW invasion at Wrestlemania 17 during a radio interview. While I'm not shedding any tears about Shawn Stasiak being treated like a joke, this represents the big problem with "losing streak" angles these days: they are done for the sole purpose of humiliating a wrestler who did something to piss off people backstage and there's never a payoff to it. The audience really doesn't give a shit about what said wrestler did to piss everybody off, yet we are the ones who are forced to watch it, and if it happens to a guy we actually like, it's a major turnoff.
I hate losing streak gimmicks as they're invariably never paid off.
ReplyDeleteThey also never do it in the natural place.
WWE is always putting young guys on losing streaks (partly it seems to punish them for a minor backstage infringements / check their ego)
Whereas to me the natural spot for it would be you have a wrestler in the twilight of his career, who hasn't picked up a win in years suddenly rediscovering the form of their youth. Kind of like Tom Watson in the Open a few years ago.
The perfect storyline would be a fan favourite (someone like Rey for example) losing for months and being publicly on the verge of quitting because they don't have it anymore, before pulling out a win in the Royal Rumble. They've then got a natural storyline to take you into WM as everyone wonders if the RR win was a fluke and whether they'll be able to get it done in the big stage
MVP seemed to get the worst losing streak, if only for the fact that it was reportedly to test his loyalty after Brock and Lashley left. Getting punished for other people's actions is some rough going.
ReplyDeleteSometimes raw talent can stop the 'losing streak' from leaving you dead in the water.. I look at Ziggler in this category. No matter how many times he jobs its obvious how talented the guy is... I just think it is a matter of the WWE starting to push him again and people won't even remember any form of a 'losing streak' before hand, I think Ziggler is so talented he is only one or two wins away from being perceived as a main eventer. Take a look at Punk pre pipe bomb era he lost nearly every feud and major match he was in, one golden promo and he was instantly the biggest star in the company.
ReplyDelete" while I think they're a terrible way to get a guy over."I even disagree with that sentence because the losing streak itself doesn't get ANYONE over. it always hurts your standing - even if it's only to a certain extent.
ReplyDeletethat bothers me so much about the WWE. it's already clear that certain parts of the the crowd almost desperately WANT to cheer for Ziggler. so why not use that?
ReplyDeleteThis is when (I assume) backstage politics REALLY confuse me. You have a guy like Ziggler who has charisma, talent, a great look, and is over with the fans. Yet they seem so resistant to REALLY push the trigger on him. Then there's a guy like Alberto Del Rio, who they absolutely insist on pushing. Don't get me wrong, the guy's fine in the ring and he's good on the mic, but he doesn't seem to have the attachment to the audience that so many other guys on the roster do have. WIth some guys, like Ziggler and Bryan, it almost feels as if the company is saying, "We can't wait to get this push behind us" so that they can get back to guys like ADR, who personally bores me to tears.
ReplyDeleteIf you want to test his loyalties, book him on shitty flights and crappy motels. I just don't understand the benefits of damaging the value of your talent because of a backstage matter fans couldnt' care less about.
ReplyDeleteI agree. I could be wrong, but I think they did something similar to this with Tommy Dreamer in WWE's ECW. And, actually, it did at least pay off with him winning the title. It's also somewhat like Flair's retirement storyline, where he had to win in order to remain active. While the opposite of a losing streak storyline, it was refreshing because the guy only seemed to return to put people over.
ReplyDeleteLosing streak gimmicks only work as Keith said if it's in a capacity where someone who normally wins all the time happens to be in a slump because it brings up the compelling nature of the character as he is forced to ask himself "Do I still have it?" and people are compelled to see if he can find his mojo again so to speak and it can lead to a rebirth and reinvigorate interest in the character.
ReplyDeleteBut if they were losers to begin with losing matches just validates the perception of that.
Counterpoint: Kenta Kobashi.
ReplyDeleteWhatever happened to all that shit about "After Wrestlemania Miz will be in a very big program! Seriously!"
ReplyDeleteDid he do something again or has he just been a victim of Brock coming in?
They would have never gone anywhere with Colin anyway. He was never intended to be anything with them, he just got really lucky by being the first local worker to be able to get to the arena the first night they used him, because there was a problem with someone else. It's too bad because he's actually pretty talented.
ReplyDeleteYes but Giant Baba knew what the fuck he was doing, WWE doesn't
ReplyDeleteLosing streaks work about as well as calling someone boring.
ReplyDeleteKobashi didn't lose, Kobashi almost won. It's how you sell it.
ReplyDeleteI wonder if Ziggler and Miz are going through the loyalty tests, especially Miz seeing as he got practically pushed to the moon last year.
ReplyDeleteI mean is it really necessary to test Ziggler's resolve? I'm pretty sure he's sticking with WWE no matter what, unless they release him or something. Miz on the other hand......
ReplyDelete