Scott,
What the hell is the WWE thinking with the way they're booking Lesnar now? How did the writers come to the logic that Lesnar being used only to put over their top guys is a good idea? Call me crazy but I think the idea of bringing in Lesnar and pushing him as a monster before someone (Cena/Rock/Taker) takes him down at Wrestlemania is a better idea then bringing in Lesnar and immediately jobbing him out to the same old top guys just to get back at him for leaving the WWE before. That Cena/Brock story that came out is so fucking dumb. I'd be mad too if I was Lesnar. The fact that he lost was stupid since it ruined his character somewhat, but they could have redeemed the loss by having Cena get carted off. I don't understand the direction of the writing barely ever anymore. I mean they had Lord Tensai beat Cena and he's going nowhere. He's not a threat to the main event picture or to guys like Cena. Why should Tensai beat Cena but Lesnar shouldn't? I heard that Cena and Lesnar didn't get along when Lesnar was first in the WWE. And now instead of a sure money-making storyline with Lesnar being unstoppable, they have to protect the ego of grown men who don't know what's good for their business. It's frustrating as a fan, really. There's no reason that Cena should have not only beaten Lesnar and ruin the idea of him being an unbeatable monster, but also cut a fucking baby face promo after the match when he was supposed to do a stretcher job. If Cena changed the plan after the match on his own then that's some petty bullshit. I mean other than the ending of the match, Cena vs Brock was put together great. Lesnar was destroying him and Cena was actually drawing cheers from the same fans who had booed him during his entrance simply because the match was structured so well that Cena was getting sympathy for not giving up. But still, Lesnar should have beaten him.
Sorry for the long e-mail. It just sucks getting excited for something out of the norm happening in the WWE, and then the same old shit happens.
-Kyle
It's the slow part of the week here on the blog, and if WWE booking has taught me anything over the years, it's that you have to push and repush the same people until they get over. So MORE BROCK.
I have nothing really to add to the e-mail, but I would like to relate an anecdote on the situation. When I was watching RAW last night, my wife comes in and sees the video package about the PPV. Now, she basically hates wrestling but tolerates it because I'm such a lovable guy and diapers are less expensive with blog revenues to help. However, she does watch and enjoy UFC with me, so she knows who Brock Lesnar is without the context of the wrestling needed. So anyway, she's like "Oh, Brock Lesnar is back in WWE now?" and I told her that yes, and he fought John Cena in his first match back on Sunday, and Cena won. Now, she has no context on wrestling booking or personal bias or anything like that, and the first question that comes to her mind is "Why did Brock lose his first match? Wouldn't you want him to win so he looks tough again before he starts losing?" EVEN MY WRESTLING-HATING WIFE UNDERSTANDS THIS BASIC CONCEPT!
Carry on with the arguments again.
Posting this from another thread:
ReplyDeleteSomebody on another message board said I was complaining about this:
You want to know why I complain? They build these guys up and then they cut their legs off and it's terrible. They've done it to Alberto Del Rio, The Miz and Mark Henry just to name a few. I am also sick of all the heels being basic chickenshit heels with no real monster heels anymore. I want another Big Van Vader and I want him in WWE. I thought they were going to make Lesnar this MONSTER HEEL and make him above everyone, not just another guy.
That is what is sad. They stop these guys at the glass ceiling instead of letting them go through it. That's why I get mad. It's because everyone is under CENA and they are all in this little bubble and they can't get out of it unless they are told to.
Brock is just another
guy in WWE instead of a giant unstoppable monster that somebody could
have beaten at WM and you could have made A STAR!!!!, A CONTENDER!. A
GUY WITH CLASS!
You could have had WWE build Lesnar as this unstoppable badass who steamrolls through the company with people scared to face him in the ring. You have it where Ace's plan backfires and Lesnar is basically destroying the company instead of legitimizing it. You can have something put into place that Lesnar cannot be fired because it would be breach of contract that Ace put into place so Triple H wouldn't fire him and it would cost the company MILLIONS OF DOLLARS if that happens so they can't get rid of him. Finally you have Undertake, return to stop Lesnar and send him packing at Wrestlemania or someone else they could pick.
I did tune in to RAW last night, but I turned it off after the Lesnar segment. I probably will stop watching for awhile and going back to watching the stuff from 87 to 02.
Threadjack: Have you guys checked out the poster for "No Way Out"? Pretty freaking epic:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.411mania.com/wrestling/news/236328/InDemand-Releases-No-Way-Out-Poster-&-Description.htm
That's right, Bryan's aura of awesome is becoming so powerful that even WWE marketing can't help but be inspired to new heights. I salute you, Daniel Bryan!
Best PPV poster ever? YES!
ReplyDeleteThat's actually something I'd order and frame for my office.
Brock Lesnar whining: Already more annoying than Daniel Bryan whining and soon to surpass Chris Benoit whining. Honest to god.
ReplyDeleteAs disappointing as Cena winning was, I wasn't surprised. Remember, this was the company that originally wanted to put him over The Rock in MIAMI.
ReplyDeleteWhoa. I clicked on that link and did NOT expect to see what I saw.
ReplyDeleteAnd what I saw was...AWESOME.
If I were booking it I would have had Lesnar beat Cena to a pulp so bad they had to stop the match. Then have Lesnar run roughshod over every opponent for the summer until Cena returns in time for Summerslam. Have Lesnar say his career began here ten years ago when he beat the Rock, the man you couldn't at Wrestlemania and at Summerslam this is where Cena's career will END. Then they go have this big epic match where Cena's loss is avenged and he beats Lesnar, everyone goes home happy the end or whatever.
ReplyDeleteIt's like RIGHT THERE and they blew it.
Jesus, that's an awesome poster. As a fan of both and being a out-of-the-box poster, I would totally buy that sucker.
ReplyDeleteIf you're not looking to read opinions I'd advise against visiting a blog with comments.
ReplyDeleteCall me crazy.
You know, participation in the board is completely voluntary. I admit that sometimes the negatively can be a bit much, but that feeling is always overcome by an appreciation for the board as a place for intelligent conversation about wrestling (that sentence was weird to type...). Heck, even the negativity usually yields some really insightful comments and fun fantasy booking. Just skim the posts you don't like and engage in the conversations you do. Make the blog yours!
ReplyDeleteI see three positive comments, but only one "Like". C'mon people, my self perception relies on confirmation of my value through "Likes". You don't want to drive a man to drinking do you?
ReplyDeleteState your opinion all you like. I stated mine.
ReplyDelete100% agree. I think we are just in a place where the negativity has completely taken over.
ReplyDelete"People comment on blogs" isn't really an opinion but whatever.
ReplyDeleteYou did, but your opinion is essentially - I sure am tired of all these opinions. I don't understand why you'd read the opinions, then, but maybe that's just me?
ReplyDeleteTo be honest I didn't have a major problem with Cena going over.
ReplyDeleteWhilst we all expected it to go another way due to a) it being Lesnar's first match back and b) it being a great opportunity to freshen up John Cena, I can understand why they might not have wanted to do that.
After all, if ever there was someone who deserved to learn a little humility it's Brock. Sending him a message that he's not going to have everything his own way and he was an arse for leaving last time isn't the craziest thing Vince has ever done.
Its a little self-defeating and petty but not without some logic.
What I had a big problem with was RAW.
The start made no sense as Brock was welcomed down to the ring as if he had won. Honestly, if you'd missed the PPV you wouldn't really have known Brock had lost till HHH dropped it into his promo.
You could have justified that start if Cena was so beaten down he wasn't at the show (won the battle but lost the war etc), but no, there he was with his arm in a sling and a smile on his face.
And just like that they both seemingly move on to other things. The PPV match was many things; brutal, stiff, bloody, unlike any WWE match ever - but it was not a feud ender. Things should be kicking into the next gear on the back of that as we escalate to a blow off. Instead we're left at a very unsatisfying place in terms of the dramatic arc of the story.
Reminds me a bit of Darth Maul being killed off at the end of the Phantom Menace despite being a cool looking bad ass. His death hurt his image and turned him into an also ran rather than a legendary bad guy a la Vader in the earlier films. And it was ultimately pointless as he was replaced by someone less cool and more boring (Count Dooku), but someone who fulfilled exactly the same dramatic role.
Hello to Lord Tensai
I love the Star Wars example, who didn't want to love Darth Maul? He was fucking awesome!
ReplyDeleteBut then Maul lost the first battle and the rest of the booking for the trilogy was too shitty to be able to save it...huh...
Because I normally enjoy the blog very much. I just think that these last few days have been ridiculous. So much venom, so little reason. Not sure why that is confusing to anyone.
ReplyDeleteLet's all breath. Lesnar fought ONE match. Yes, he lost it. But it's been one match. How did this turn into Lesnar only being used to put over their top guys? Since his return he's been treated like a massive star and somebody WWE will bend over backwards for. His brawls have elicited blood (huge in this era) and the locker room to empty. He completely dominated the biggest star, who had to resort to a chain and stairs to win. The next night, he broke the arm of another huge star. I'm sure we all agree that Lesnar winning made more sense, but let's not act like he's waltzing out here being treated like a jobber.
ReplyDeleteMy point was that I have nothing against people posting opinions. But whatever.
ReplyDeleteI was never clear why they didn't just bring him back regardless. It wasn't like clones played a big part in the story or anything. Red Maul in I, Blue Maul in II, Purple Maul in III...I would have dug that.
ReplyDeleteWhat about Boba Fett jobbing to Han's accidental activation of his jetpack? Poor guy...
ReplyDeleteWill there be a wedding? ;)
ReplyDeleteThat's what everyone who is supporting Brock losing is missing. This isn't some radical idea, we're not coming up with some complicated, never seen before booking plan because it's what we want to see, it's wrestling booking 101 - you build a guy up before you knock him down. Yeah, this will all probably work out fine and Brock will draw as much or slightly more than everyone else does these days and all the big names will get to say they beat Brock Lesnar and Vince will finally be able to sleep well knowing that nobody got the best of him and Triple H can throw "Brock Lesnar" into his "I beat them all from Chris Jericho to...." speeches....
ReplyDeleteBut it could have been more. Brock comes in loaded with credibility, both from his UFC days and his domination of WWE when he was here last. Have him resume killing guys. Then people are tuning in to every match to see if he can be beat. Then when you have The Rock, or Cena, or Punk, step up to face him, it's a money match. Yeah, they can rebuild him after the loss. But if he doesn't lose they don't have to. You know what would've gotten him more over as a bad ass than breaking Triple H's arm? Breaking Triple H's arm the night after he beat John Cena. It's the same line of thinking as the "well he can say he had to be AA'd on the steps to be beat, or he beat Cena to a pulp and Cena got lucky". Yeah, he could say that. So then you're asking fans to look at Triple H vs Brock and think "Well Brock lost to Cena, but he could have won, so he can probably beat Triple H, can Triple H beat him?" instead of "Brock's a killing everyone, shit, can Triple H beat him?" Kind of a difference.
No, he lost. All hope is lost. The Brock we know is dead and nothing can bring him back.
ReplyDeleteI'm right there with ya, Exodus. Your comments and reasoning make sense, yet, people are just a step away from saying, "Love it or leave it," in response. We come here for intelligent discussion and then we got sucked into some weird, hateful stuff the last few days.... it's not hard at all to understand your POV.
ReplyDelete5 "Likes"? That'll do! Cease the drinking of sorrow! Commence, the drinking of joy!
ReplyDeleteI don't think anybody is disputing that Brock should have won. Most people "defending" it seem to be in the camp that they didn't mind Cena winning or that Brock losing isn't the end of the world. I mean, look at the rant in the e-mail that was sent to Scott....this person has already written Brock's return off as him returning and losing to all of the top stars. Yeah, Brock probably should've won that match, but let's stop acting like the entire year is now worthless because he lost one match.
ReplyDeleteMark Henry got derailed by an injury.
ReplyDeleteThis exactly.
ReplyDeleteWhat's ironic is that if Brock had gone over, the entire IWC would be raving about how Extreme Rules was one of the best PPVs of recent years. That's how they acted after Money in the Bank 2011 when they got the finish they wanted with Punk going over. While most people have still praised Exteme Rules because of match quality, that one booking decision at the end has left people focusing on the negative.
ReplyDeleteYears from now, it will be interesting to see if Extreme Rules is looked back upon as one of the best WWE PPVs of all time after the furor about Brock has long died down.
Yeah, they can rebuild him, but this company has a long track record of fucking up surefire unfuckupable storylines.
ReplyDeleteWCW InVasion, Goldberg in '03, ECW relaunch, Nexus, Summer Of Punk, Zack Ryder, need I go on?
In fact, the Jeff Hardy/CM Punk feud in '09 is the last major storyline I can remember them not screwing up in some capacity.
And even then, Punk got the "privilege " of getting squashed by The Undertaker for no good reason after that feud ended, also completely killing Smackdown's hot run in the process.
A separate, but important, issue: Does anyone else think Lesnar loses .4% of his tough guy cred. by having the first name Brock? It just doesn't sound like an ass-kicking name. Kind of like the Billy Crystal bit in When Harry Met Sally about how guys named Sheldon are destined to be unappealing lovers.
ReplyDeleteNote: This is tongue in cheek. If anyone out there is named Brock, I apologize. Unless you're smaller than me/suck at fighting.
...and yet Jar Jar made it to the end. Was Russo writing for Lucas?
ReplyDeleteThey brought him back in the cartoon with prostetic legs.
ReplyDeleteFor real? I kinda like my idea better.
ReplyDeleteThen they started jobbing him instead of letting him heal.
ReplyDeleteHe doesn't need to be rebuilt. He is just fine.
ReplyDeleteIf I could get it autographed, then I definitely would. I would have dressed her like Snidely Whiplash though.
ReplyDeleteThe more I think about this, I wonder are WWE's margins SO thin that they can't afford to have Cena lose because they are afraid kids won't watch anymore? If Brock beat him up so badly that it puts him "on the shelf" for a time, are they afraid they'll lose so much revenue that it's not worth it? Are they so afraid to slightly deviate from him Rise Above Hate, Nothing Ever Bother Me persona so much that the kids won't look up to him, or think he's a hypocrite?
ReplyDeleteI think back to when I was a kid and watching wrestling, I was never a big Hogan fan, but I do remember when Earthquake squashed him on the Brother Love show and knocked him "out" for awhile, and I saw the camera shots of the kids crying in the crowd, did they stop watching the WWF? Did they stop going to events because Hogan wasn't there? I was a HUGE Ultimate Warrior fan when I was a kid, thrilled when he beat Hogan at Wrestlemania VI, when he lost to Savage at Royal Rumble '91, I was mad that he lost, but then I couldn't wait for him to get revenge down the road on that no good SOB. Are the kid fans these days so sensitive so that if their hero loses, or show real vulnerability, or has to be out for awhile, they'll stop watching? I don't know, but the booking is making it seem that way.
The name "Floyd" is even worse.....but Mayweather, Jr. seems to do ok with it.
ReplyDeleteThere's not a single woman on the face of this earth that watches/enjoys the UFC. Stop lying Mr. Keith.
ReplyDeleteBrock lost at ER, who cares. Move on, buddy.
Which he easily could have said no and they would have taken him off TV to heal. If anybody is to blame for Mark Henry's slow downfall, it's Mark Henry.
ReplyDeletePretty sure Summer of Punk was pretty great. Goldberg was still Goldberg of old as it took a four man stable in Evolution and Kane to get the title away from him. Invasion is not as bad as people make it out to be. ECW relaunch was something that should have never been done and was never an "unfuckupable" storyline.
ReplyDeleteThey *did* rebuild him. Weren't you watching? He broke motherfucking HHH's arm with his new submission hold!
ReplyDeleteNash and Sheamus needed weapons to put the guy on the shelf, Lesnar did it with his bare hands.
Tell that to Brock Sampson.
ReplyDeleteI'm leery of asking this cause looking at your posts gives me the impression you're... *gulp*.... trolling, but what did you like about the Invasion? I thought we got some great matches out of it, but from a storytelling perspective I (and most people it seems) thought it was overall a giant misfire.
ReplyDeleteSteph "owning" ECW. Turning the WCW/WWF war into a McMahon feud. Having the final WCW team include Steve Austin, Kurt Angle, and Shane McMahon. Having the entire storyline run a total of 5 months. Making WCW guys like DDP and Booker look weak. Trying to portray WCW as faces initially. I've never heard anyone defend the Invasion before, I'm genuinely curious what you liked about the booking of it.
It was years ago, so maybe it's a different situation now, but weren't numbers more or less the same anytime Cena was out with an injury? I think kids, more than anyone, watch wrestling because it's wrestling. John Cena's their favorite, but they're not going to stop watching because John Cena lost or isn't around for a couple of weeks. Adults tend to get attached to certain characters and can find other things to amuse themselves if wrestling bores them, but kids just like wrestling.
ReplyDeleteBut if their profit margins are that small, how can they afford to pay Brock $5 million and not do everything they can do get the most money possible out of him?
It's not even the negativity that bothers me. It's the way people react when the story doesn't go exactly the way they want it to. And then they justify their negativity by saying, "When does it ever work out well?" Hey, a lot of the times it doesn't work out the way they hoped, but there are SO MANY instances where you're really killing your enjoyment of the product by not allowing yourself to view the story for what it is and not what you envision it being.
ReplyDeleteI'm not saying you should blindly enjoy the show. But there are numerous instances where the story is just fine. It's just not the one you would have written.
Or Brock Strongo.
ReplyDeleteI agree with you, it doesn't make any sense that they would book THIS tenatively with John Cena. And here's where I agree with the people heavily criticizing this decision, this had the possibility of being much better than it currently is, but they messed it up initially. It's almost like the writers are thinking "under no circumstances can Cena show any real weakness or frustration" or it might alienate the kids, or Mattel might pull their deal with us" or something like that. It really hurts the product because your most popular performer can't have any real compelling storylines because his characters fits so rigidly within a box that it almost doesn't make sense amongst the rest of them.
ReplyDeleteAs far as Brock goes, I don't know. Like I've said before, I won't count him out yet...he's so different from anyone else on the roster in style and substance, he could still catch on. He'd almost be better off feuding with someone like C.M. Punk who can convey "realness" in his promos and offense, but I'm willing to see where this goes.
Bingo. He should have won - of course he should have goddamn won, come on - but I was OK with the story told in the ring and don't think in any way that all his heat is KILLED DEAD after one match.
ReplyDeleteWomen be shoppin, commenters be commentin.
ReplyDeleteWrestling hating wives are funny like that sometimes. My wife asked if they ever told us who the mystery GM was.
ReplyDeleteExactly. Everything that should have turned to gold when this company has touched it for the past ten years has turned into shit time and time again. It's no wonder most of us are on here screaming THE STORYLINE IS RUINED WAHHHH because 99% of the time based on the WWE track record, it is.
ReplyDeleteEven though I agree with the Brock & Bryan whining, and have maybe thrown a little this or that in there, it seems like lately every PPV becomes a really bitter, ugly, and long winded fight over the most minute details of what could have happened, coupled with random marks that only seem to pop out of the woodwork when something controversial happens to defend WWE.
ReplyDeleteWhen my wife was pregnant with my daughter, we had her name as a girls name from the start, I think it was the only name we even suggested. We had a really hard time coming up with a boy's name, and the one we kinda halfway settled on was Brock (Lesnar's what made me think of it, but it wasn't going to be, like, in tribute to him or anything). My dad had an unearthly conniption fit against it when I told him, because apparently the local token gay kid when he was growing up was named Brock, and thus that was always going to be a "sissy" name to him.
ReplyDeleteFWIW, we were going to give him my wife's great grandfather's name as a middle name, so he'd end up having been the ultra-manly Brock Bronson Murphy.
My non-wrestling fan wife and a lapsed wrestling fan co-worker both had the same reaction. It's not that hard to grasp: if the first 3 episodes of a season of Justified hype up some new crime boss that's going to totally destroy Raylan's world and wreak havoc on the US Marshals and then in episode 4 Raylan gets up from several gunshots and incapacitates the guy with a punch to the face, and then the rest of the season is Raylan having a workplace dispute with Art, that season is going to epically suck.
ReplyDeleteSub in Dexter for Justified or whatever else you prefer to make the reference your own.
http://youtu.be/wwDUO7tDlOQ
ReplyDeleteI wish my parents had named me "Brock Bronson".
ReplyDeleteI got stuck with "Stuart".
In defense of the "inVasion" storyline, there was some incredible in-ring action taking place at the time.
ReplyDeleteSure, the angle was botched six ways from Sunday (and for all the wrong reasons), but if you feel like just sitting back and watching some really good wrestling matches, it's a pretty good collection to choose from.
Your dad sounds like a real swell homophobic xenophobe!
ReplyDeleteYou leave ken alone!
ReplyDeleteYou will absolutely watch next week. Who are you kidding?
ReplyDeleteI will watch Smackdown, but probably not RAW.
ReplyDeleteEh he's a weird case. He was always friendly with my sister's lesbian friend, I've never known him to have much of an opinion on anything that isn't hunting, NASCAR, union politics, or the fact that he still watches football even though he's convinced the Mafia fixes every game. He also hates cops and only sleeps with married women.
ReplyDeleteYeah, I did watch and given HHH's track record, it's safe to say the blowoff will result in Brock eating a Pedigree because nothing says "dominant monster" more than losing to a guy who's more or less retired for no reason other than Vince is still pissy about Brock walking out eight years ago. A walkout that their main audience doesn't even remember, by the way.
ReplyDeleteThis would be like Verne Gagne booking himself to beat Hulk Hogan in 1983 at the height of Hulkamania.
And you are aware that Hunter ended up making Nash and Sheamus look like shit in the end, right?
Not to mention, no one has still come up with a good excuse as to why Hunter beat Punk last year and Punk never got his revenge against either HHH or Nash.
You must not get out much.
ReplyDeleteThis is probably a bigger discussion, but I think part of the problem is regarding anyone who enjoys a show as being a mark. (Not singling you out -- I don't think that was your intent.) I watch wrestling because I like wrestling, and I read Scott and occasionally subscribe to the Observer because I like to know what is going on behind the scenes. I don't consider myself a mark or a smark, I'm just a fan. I don't need to know everything that is going to happen beforehand and I generally don't get upset if things don't work out the way I would have predicted.
ReplyDeleteThe hysteria that emerges sometimes when things don't go the way the consensus opinion feels they should go is something I don't understand. Scott reposted a recap recently where he laughed at himself for getting upset when Benoit didn't win the TV Title. I really think in ten years this episode is another where people are going to look back and have to laugh at themselves for flying so far off the handle.
Yes, I am trolling because my viewpoint is on the opposite side of yours.
ReplyDeleteTo say the Invasion made Booker and DDP look weak is a bad assumption. Booker's first feud was with The Rock. Since Booker was the heel, he did heel tactics to win, such as having Shane help him. Yes, Booker lost a bunch, but Booker also created great moments not only with Rock but Austin as well. DDP looked great until they decided the kidnapping angle was too much for TV.
Steph owning ECW was also pretty great because Heyman finally realized he needed a financial backer and what better back than a McMahon. And the McMahon family is intertwined with WWE and they all have interesting characters.
I don't think the WCW's problem was having WWE guys on their team, it was that it too closely mirrored the nWo because people were jumping ship to avoid the downfall of WWE. We needed a few years away from the nWo to make an invasion really work. That's why the Nexus was such a great thing at the beginning.
Without the Invasion, we wouldn't have motivational speaker DDP, we wouldn't have gotten the resurgence of Booker T, we wouldn't have gotten RVD, we wouldn't have gotten super heel Austin, we wouldn't have gotten a lot of things that the WWE benefitted from. The Invasion begat a lot of good things, so I can't say it was a failure.
So a homophobic home-wrecker who only condones gay relationships when it's between two women then! Even better!
ReplyDeleteHe supports gay marriage and the like, at least as far as I know. He's not religious or anything. Just a low level of basic small town whiteboy bigotry. He keeps it to himself mostly, he's a pretty quiet guy.
ReplyDeleteThe home wrecker thing I have no answer for. All I know is it made things kinda hairy for me when I was single because, as far as I know, he has a lot of illegitimate kids out there who don't know they're his, and I was always worried about accidentally banging one of them. Apparently my grandfather & uncles have a similar problem. Us Murphy men aren't prone to much, but women are our weakness.
I honestly never thought ol' Papa Murph would warrant so many discussions on a wrestling board lol.