Scott, after hearing Heyman last night and being a younger fan, why exactly did Brock leave WWE the first time? I always thought he was just fickle and sick of the travel schedule but was there anything to him "being sick of the politics" as Heyman alluded to? This also got me to thinking...why exactly did Stone Cold leave WWE so many times? My assumption was it was always due to injuries but people always mention him "taking his ball" and going home. Did injuries really cause him to walk away numerous times or is there more to it? Thanks MH
Brock left the first time because, as you noted, he was sick of the travel and Vince wouldn't capitulate to his every little demand. The contract dispute stuff was pretty inside, actually.
Austin left so many times because he has no financial incentive to put up with the bullshit surrounding him and can basically come and go at his own whim. He worked injured for his entire career more or less, so it wasn't really injuries until the final back injury ended his career in 2003. Other than that it was mostly just the writers coming up with incredibly stupid stuff for him to be doing (like jobbing to the Coach) and Austin telling WWE to fuck off. I don't think it was ever personal when he did it, he would just disagree with creative frequently and didn't want to bother any longer. And hey, the dude makes millions of dollars off merchandise and residuals, so he's got every right to hold out for storylines that aren't incredibly dumb.
Usually when there's a conversation about Triple H holding people down, someone responds with "yeah, but look what Austin did!" Who was else was it that he was not going to put over? Was it Lesnar?
ReplyDeleteThe two names I've heard the most are Jeff Jarrett and Owen. IIRC, Austin didn't really have a problem putting Lesnar over, he just didn't want to do it so soon after Brock had debuted.
ReplyDeleteThe rumors were always Jeff Jarrett and Billy Gunn, though I think it wasn't even that they wanted Austin to put them over, but just work with them. To me, outright refusing to work with people is pretty bad, and pretty hypocritical of Austin considering his feelings on his own WCW run.
ReplyDeleteI mean, not that I blame him for wanting to work with guys a little better than friggin' Jarrett and Gunn, but he was king of the castle and making millions per year... give a little, ya know?
After Owen broke his neck and never apologized, I can't blame Austin for not wanting to work with him again. Jarrett wasn't a serious main eventer in the eyes of the fans. WCW tried to push him as a top level guy, but he was nothing more than a upper mid-card guy. Once again, I can't blame Austin.
ReplyDeleteGiving away Austin vs. Brock in a King of the Ring Tournament match of Raw WAS stupid.
Wasn't there something involving Debra for why Austin didn't want to work with Jarrett?
ReplyDeleteAustin dating/marrying Debra came later: Jarrett, when he came back to the WWE in 1997, pissed off Austin big time when Jarrett, during a one-on-one sit-down interview hyping his return to the WWE, slammed Steve Austin for "Austin 3:16" on Raw by way of calling it blasphemous.
ReplyDeleteAustin never forgave Jarrett for this, claiming that Jarrett's comments COULD have sparked a right wing religious boycott of the WWE and could have led to Vince pulling the Austin 3:16 merch as a result, had Jarrett's comments managed to penetrate the mainstream. So Austin refused to have anything to do with Jarrett professionally....
The Austin/Brock thing is one of the dumbest things ever.
ReplyDelete1. Why give away Brock vs Austin on free TV?
2. Why not build the match for more than an hour?
3. Why would Austin even want to be IN the King of the Ring tournament?
The third one is something that's never talked about... but there's no way that any incarnation of that match makes sense.
Not that I'm defending Austin for not wanting to work with people because that's a shitty attitude to take but, in his defense, he was extremely injured for a long time and probably was apprehensive about who he could trust enough to work with.
ReplyDeleteIt's funny, because so much changed just because of Austin's injury: the Main Event Brawl style where they would have lots of storyline elements and brawling in the crowd and stuff, which has lasted to this day. The long sprawling talk segments to open the show, which kept his character fresh when he was too injured to wrestle every week, which has lasted to this day. And the idea of having a smaller group of "main event" workers that you solely wrestle with at the expense of everyone else, which is something that lasted to this day. Pretty much everything about wrestling in the last 15 years spun right out of Austin getting piledriven (piledrove?) and getting injured.
Seeing the title I thought this one was some kind of breaking news about roster cuts. Seems like they're doing away with the traditional post-Mania firing spree and pushing it back further into summer. Wasn't it just before Summerslam last year that they cut Kozlov, Masters, DH Smith, etc? Because with the influx of new talent coming in, they need to do some SERIOUS housecleaning with some of the low-carders.
ReplyDeleteCo-Owner Ric Flair said winning the King of the Ring Tournament would be the only way Austin would get a WWE Championship match.
ReplyDeleteHe didn't really like Jarrett as a worker, either. Austin could work pretty stiff and liked working with guys who could give it back to him as well as take it because it meant the matches would be good. He made a comment once that Jeff doesn't even it the ropes that hard, which shows how much of a wuss he is.
ReplyDeleteI know Brock was sick of the schedule and travel, but I thought the key reason he left the WWE was because he wanted to give playing in the NFL a shot.
ReplyDeleteJarrett was an excellent worker. Austin getting pissy about calling 3:16 blasphemous was extremely hypocritical, since I doubt he'd have understood if (let's say Shawn was already a born again Christian) HBK refused to work with him BECAUSE of the Austin 3:16 deal.
ReplyDeleteJarrett was and is extremely boring in all facets. The only excellent thing he ever did was hook up with Vince Russo (and then create his own company) so he could finally get an undeserved main event push.
ReplyDeleteI think that was his excuse after the fact.
ReplyDeleteYou're right. He did give it a shot and was briefly signed to the Minnesota Vikings practice squad from which he got cut.
ReplyDeleteHeel Ric Flair ruled in 2002 until Austin left and he was forced to turn face. It was some vintage Naitch shit.
ReplyDeleteJeff Jarrett defines "undeserving". If the only thing that gets you over is a stupid rehash of an Andy Kaufman gimmick, you probably aren't long for this business.
ReplyDeleteHe worked a Heat main event with D'Lo Brown when Brown was definitely behind both Jarrett and Gunn on the pecking order. Just saying.
ReplyDeleteAs a Minnesotan I know I'm supposed to love Brock, but he just makes it so damned hard. You'll find very few pro athletes who carry around a bigger sense of entitlement and he's notorious in the Twin Cities bar scene for being a major douchebag.
ReplyDeleteJarrett sucked,he didn't deserve to work with Austin.
ReplyDeleteWhenever I hear talk about a potential big-money match in the future between Stone Cold and C.M. Punk, it just boggles my mind to think that they came so close to bringing back Austin for one more match in order to job him to the friggin' Coach!
ReplyDeleteWhich is an even bigger reason we need something refreshing. I think it's sad that you could stop watching RAW around 1999 and see the same setup for the shows that you had back then for a large part.
ReplyDeleteNevermind also putting him over on FREE TV in what should've been a marquee PPV match.
ReplyDeleteI can understand why Austin may have been protective of his sport. First off, at the end of the day, it's a business. It's his career, his opportunity to make money, who's to blame him for trying to make as much as he can? And secondly, he was held down in WCW, promised things that didn't happen, and then told he wouldn't amount to anything and fired...he goes to the WWF, and was one of those guys who's ceiling was decided before he debuted. Vince wasn't interested in him, he was supposed to be a midcarder used to make others look good. I just heard a shoot with Russo and Ferrara where they talked about Austin and how Vince just didn't see anything in him. Russo would think of things for him but they'd be shot down, Vince didn't want Austin to talk, he was just supposed to be another guy. He gets himself over, and finds himself becoming the biggest star, possibly, in the history of wrestling. Why wouldn't he try to hold onto that as long as possible? Nobody thought he was going to be a star and only allowed it to happen because the company was losing money and his getting over saved it. Also, his career nearly ended just as he was starting to take off and he was forced to wrestle hurt for the majority of his run on top. It literally could've ended any day. Of course he'd want to get as much out of it as he could while he could.
ReplyDeleteJobbing him to Brock made zero sense. It's simple wrestling logic - build a big new star, pair him off against the established top star, and that's money. I'm sure people would've bought Brock/Austin down the line, but why risk tainting it with nothing to gain? Maybe the ratings for Raw are bigger that one week. That's the Goldberg/Hogan argument, and most agree they blew a huge pay per view money maker for the sake of one rating. Brock needed someone to beat in the first round of the KOTR - they literally could've used anyone. Al Snow would have made more sense. Walking out being unprofessional is about the only argument you have against Austin, his logic makes perfect sense. It's common sense.
I used to hate Brock for leaving. I think it was the arrogance of thinking he could just go play in the NFL because he wanted to....but over the years I've come to respect him for leaving. Mostly because there's Vince, a guy who makes and breaks careers. There's literally hundreds of guys who's lives were effected in one way or another by Vince's whims....and then there's Brock, given everything, made into one of Vince's chosen guys, and decides he just doesn't want to do it anymore and walks away on his own.
ReplyDeleteI remember reading online that him not wanting to work with Jarrett had something to do with what he believed Debra and Jarrett's relationship to be in the past. Which I guess suggests he may have thought they were having an affair at one point...but I also remember the story about the 3:16 thing. I don't know, I'd tend to dislike someone more for sleeping with my life than a comment 2 years ago that had no effect on me.
ReplyDeleteIf I recall correctly, this might have been the very first episode of Heat.
ReplyDeleteHeck, the very first episode of the retooled Superstars had Undertaker vs. Matt Hardy and Shane McMahon vs. Cody Rhodes. Guys will come out for those debut episodes!
I guess that would've enhanced Coach in his new role at ESPN!
ReplyDeleteTo each his own. Jarrett was very good in WCW in 2000, having numerous good matches. Was he Shawn Michaels? No. But he's also always been reliable for good matches and occasionally good promos.
ReplyDeleteI don't blame Austin at all for that incident in June 2002... he had the position where he could afford to stand up to Vince/creative and tell them to f-off. Also, he didn't refuse to job to Brock... he just didn't want to lose to him in a KOTR qualifying match with no build. If you're going to beat one of the biggest stars in wrestling, at least make some money off of it. Based on that concept, it's clear the WWE hasn't learned anything about making money from 2002 to 2012.
ReplyDeleteThe storyline with Flair was pretty stupid up until the Flair turn. I swear every week each episode involved Flair asking Austin to trust him and Austin repeatedly saying "DTA" while hanging out in the back drinking beers with Bradshaw. And each episode of Raw seemed to end with somebody leaving Austin beaten down, whether it was Flair, the nWo, Big Show, Benoit, or Eddie.
ReplyDeleteCan't say I blame his attitude about the writing team, the Brock thing had to have been the straw breaking the camel's back.
As for Brock, supposedly the straw that broke his back was having to fly all the way to Australia just to wrestle a 10 minute match with Bob Holly. Then being told his next storyline was feuding with the returned Deadman Undertaker, which would involve Brock going to a voodoo lady for a pouch of dirt (which we later saw with Booker).
He just never got Memphis out of his system. And his matches were always competent but lacking emotion and excitement.
ReplyDeleteThe reason Austin doesn't nearly as much flack as other big main eventers about 'holding people down' or 'refusing to work with people' is because Austin seemingly made good choices when using his politics.
ReplyDelete* Billy Gunn. Stunk. Austin probably saw this feud as a waste of time.
* Jeff Jarrett. Not quite 'stunk' but the definition of a generic midcard guy. Again, waste of time for Austin, not to mention his personal beef about the 3:16 thing. I can definitely see how Austin would be upset about possibly having his merchandise severely affected by a religious boycott of some sort, not to mention the problems WWE was already having during that era with right-wing family groups.
* Brock Lesnar. As others have outlined, Austin was open to jobbing to Lesnar....just on a PPV and with a solid build, not as a throwaway match on Raw. I totally agree with Austin.
* Owen Hart. I'd argue you could've had Owen as a main eventer without having him interact with Austin (if they're both faces, they wouldn't cross paths much, Austin's DTA character notwithstanding). I can't really blame Austin for not wanting to work with Owen given the trauma of the neck injury. It's ironic, given how good a worker that Owen was --- I'd reckon he was probably one of Austin's favourite opponents before Summerslam 1997.
Compare this to someone like Triple H or Hogan, when you can point to several instances where their politicking to squash guys or not work with them directly hurt business, whether it was in terms of building future stars or unsatisfactorily ending storylines.
Thanks for this. I often wondered why Austin got so angry about this statement of Jarrett's - it seems a little bit overboard but with this perspective it makes total sense.
ReplyDeleteSMACKDOWN SPOILER:
ReplyDelete10 matches?? Is that some kind of record?
Apparently, Austin also faked a knee injury in his US title match with Hacksaw Duggan, and told Duggan to pin him immediately rather than the 12-14 minute match they had planned. So he was screwing people over long before he was financially independent.
ReplyDeleteI never understood how the Austin/Lesnar thing got to the point where Austin actually quit. You'd think that one of the higher-ups would have said "Steve's right, this is a fucking stupid idea and we SHOULD build this up for a couple of months and put it on PPV and make an assload of money". Maybe they wanted him to quit, who knows...
ReplyDeleteWasn't that whole thing meant to be a way to get Mark Henry over, as he was going to cost Austin the match?
ReplyDeleteI'm expecting a real bloodletting this year, for sure, due to all of the guys down in FCW they're presumably being calling up. If nothing else, Evan Bourne should hopefully be able to move on with his life soon.
ReplyDeleteOne thing that comes to mind about Austin jobbing to Lesnar on TV was that Hogan did it. That did have some build (Hogan had to beat Angle to get a shot at Brock, I think). I guess it was less of a marquee match up because Hogan was a nostalgia act and Austin was still a contemporary guy. . It's also funny to me in hindsight that the match wound up not happening at all because he walked out and didn't come back until Brock was a babyface on Smackdown.
ReplyDeleteCorrect me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Austin essentially ok with doing the job but just on PPV because it was gonna be a spur the moment type of job and if it was put on PPV it can get some decent build and make WWE some money and that get misconstrued as Austin not wanting to do the job?
ReplyDeleteBasically this. Austin gets painted as the bad guy just because he was protecting the company and the business.
ReplyDeleteIf only more guys did more good with their politics than bad.
Yeah, expect the old jobbers to be killed dead.
ReplyDeleteWhere'd you hear that?
ReplyDeleteThat's what I've always heard. Austin didn't think it was smart to give away a huge matchup like that with zero build, zero publicity, and as a KOTR qualifying match that was likely to go 5-10 minutes at most.
ReplyDeleteVince Mcmahon logic at it's finest.
ReplyDeletePunk's kinda changing that, with the whole "wrestle everybody" thing he's been working on.
ReplyDeleteI do find it a bit funny that people defend wrestlers for holding people down, while bashing others for doing it. I'm one of the guys who REALLY hates HHH for doing that shit, and it's kind of a dick move for anyone.I will agree with him on Owen & Brock (hell, even BROCK agrees with him on Brock). Refusing to work with Jarrett & Gunn just shows unusual foresight from Austin (he must've been able to TELL they sucked- the fact that nobody over a certain level ever laid down for Gunn tells me the rest of the company thought the same way), but it's still kind of dick-ish, however shitty both guys were/are. Like working with either guy would hurt Austin? Well, it's still better than actually holding them down and beating them live on PPV numerous times- at least Austin let them succeed or fail on their own.
ReplyDeleteIn the grand scheme of things, Austin refused to work with a couple of guys and it's kind of douchey. He's still way below HHH, Hogan & others on the "hold everyone down" scale.Regarding him quitting, remember that Austin was basically going NUTS at the time, and got stuck at WrestleMania fighting Scott "Alka" Hall in a stupid throwaway nothing match, and he was just floundering creatively at the time. The Brock thing was just the straw that broke the camel's back, and he fucked right off.
although we don't KNOW if that was only excuse the excuse he gave or if he would have really done the job.
ReplyDeletethis is still more an example of Hogan pushes his over-the-hill friends and the current generation of young stars get screwed out of their spot than the other way around.
ReplyDeleteit's not even the Goldberg/Hogan argument because in that case you could at least find reasons for the match not being on ppv (whether it was the chance of Hogan instantly changing his mind or getting the biggest possible exposure for your new babyface hero).
ReplyDeleteor maybe nobody stood up to Vince because Vince really is a bully.
ReplyDeleteto me, they don't. just about everyone I knew who liked wrestling back then KNOW it was a play on being a bible verse. people were aware of that, they just didn't give a damn.
ReplyDeleteI guarantee half are squashes.
ReplyDeleteWhat I don't get is how everyone happens to know who refused to job to who and who decided what at the end of the day. How do we know these things for sure? I'm not saying it doesn't happen but I think people like to make assumptions
ReplyDeleteWithout reading the results, I'll guess AJ went crazy on a woman, Daniel Bryan abused her, a singles match became a tag match after a brawl between competitors, Kofi or Truth went against Dolph or Swagger and Ryback, Funkasauraus and at least one of the other new guys had squash matches.
ReplyDeleteI think there was a slow build for Austin leaving because I thought there were issues regarding Austin facing Hall at WM 18 too.
ReplyDeleteI've heard a rumour regarding Austin not wanting to work with Jarrett also partially stemmed from Austin working Memphis before he worked WCW and not getting paid properly by Jeff's dad Jerry Jarrett. Not sure how true this is, but I do know a lot of wrestlers had heat with Lawler when he initially joined the then WWF from bad pay offs in Memphis which led to some of them crapping in Lawler's crown.
ReplyDeleteI know that Henry didn't return until a few months later to attack Batista, but this might have been their original plan to bring him back.
ReplyDeletehttp://pwtorch.com/artman2/publish/spotlightarticleboxcenter/article_61210.shtml
ReplyDeleteThe reverse of holding someone down is just as bad. Ric Flair laid down for everyone. I wish he would he have been more like Austin and Triple H. Instead I watched him lay down for Buff Bagwell and Rico the Stylist. A pinfall over Hogan, Austin, or Triple H is a BIG deal, as it should be. Pinning Hogan is more of an honor than winning a World Title.
ReplyDeleteNot to say Duggan's wrong, but wouldn't losing in seconds make Austin look worse than losing in a 12-15 minute match?
ReplyDeleteI feel similarly about The Rock. I wish he would have pulled rank a bit more often.
ReplyDeleteDidn't they get Hogan to agree to the job by claiming he'd get his win back later on?
ReplyDeleteI agree in regards to Rock. Jobs to Billy Gunn, Big Boss Man, Mark Henry and (I think...not sure) Al Snow were not necessary.
ReplyDeleteAnd jobbing at the end of WM2000 is the biggest one. That should have been his biggest moment (at that point of his career).
It's quite clear to me, Vince has always said no one is bigger than the WWE.
ReplyDeleteIs Steve Austin possibly the most beloved legend on all time? It seemed anytime he was put in a face/face match up the crowd always chose him, and even when he became stale and repetitive he didn't get the fan backlash that others have gotten. Aside from when he turned heel the fans just never turned on him, and even then they were begging to be able to cheer him again.
ReplyDeleteI think it has something to do with Austin being relatable to basically everyone. Kids loved him because he always stood up to anyone, teenagers loved him because he chugged beer and flipped birds, and adults loved him because he actively told his boss to go fuck himself.
ReplyDeleteAll of that plus he was such a great entertainer that you knew every single match was going to be interesting/awesome.
He was just so incredibly fucking talented on every level it's impossible not to like the guy.
When did Rock lose to those four guys? I can't even remember that stuff anymore- all I remember of the "Gunn" feud was Rock absolutely burying him in the "it doesn't MATTER what your name is!" promo, from which Gunn never recovered, since he had no mic skills to counter that (there's worse things out there than refusing to work with someone).
ReplyDeleteI see nothing wrong with that. Smackdown is turning into the Saturday afternoon shows of olden times, where newer guys can get their characters together and work out their new styles. I hope they do away with any storyline matches besides the main event and the mid-show match and just have the rest be quick character-builder matches.
ReplyDeleteHell, I even watch it on Saturday afternoon.
I believe he lost once to Billy in the lead-up to their epic confrontation at Summerslam. He jobbed to Big Boss Man on RAW (then went crazy and busted the guy open with a chain), earning BBM a title shot at the Big Show so they could finish off their feud. He lost to Mark Henry via D'Lo interference when he left the Nation and got pinned by Al Snow (I think...this one I'm not sure about) during a mini-program involving Mankind as Al was jealous of Mick's friendship with Rock or something.
ReplyDeleteThey weren't clean jobs...but back in the Attitude Era, there rarely were any clean finishes.
Part of the reason why Rock could job was that he was such a charismatic performer. He could lose but then just cut a promo and be the most over guy in the business. HHH was never that over and probably wouldn't have gotten main-even status unless he had that run in 2000. However, that doesn't excuse his bullshit power-grabs in 2003 and beyond.
As much as I hated the end of WM2000 (I just watch the Backlash 2000 main event and pretend that was Mania)... it did serve the purpose of thinking that the heel could win the main event of Mania.
ReplyDeleteAustin said in his most-recent DVD that he was pretty pissed about facing Hall at WM 18 while Rock got the dream match with Hogan, so I'm sure he wasn't in the best mood in the months to follow and the Brock thing may have been the straw that broke the camel's back, so to speak.
ReplyDeletewhich would be funny because its a move that Hogan is said to have done several times.
ReplyDeleteMy comment wasn't referring to it being a bible verse - I'm a Christian so that part was obvious to me. =) I meant I was surprised Austin was so mad at Jarrett pointing out potential blasphemy. With the logic that someone a little more crazed right wing might have cost Austin a lot of merchandizing money though, it makes sense as to why he was pissed. That's all I meant.
ReplyDeleteTrue. But, of course, being married to the boss' daughter (obviously !) helped to push his main event status further ... Just saying
ReplyDelete... as well as helped to escalate his bull shit power - grabs during all of this time.
ReplyDelete