Hey Scott,
Question for your readers - why wasn't Flair vs. Hogan a draw for WWF back in that '91-92 period? We criticize WWE a lot for all the angles they bungle (Invasion, Nexus, etc.) but this seemed to be a legitimate Wrestlemania main event that never was. I've read at the time that Flair had some confidence issues and house shows running that matchup didn't draw well but it seems crazy they didn't run it on PPV at least once. What's even more puzzling is that WCW ran it in 1994 on PPV for Hogan's first match and did a great buyrate if I recall correctly. So was it just a matter of bad timing? WWF politics? Or something else all together?
Yeah, Flair came in during kind of a dead time between Summerslam and Wrestlemania, and they ran the first matches in markets where Flair wasn't going to be a strong draw, and from there it was already kind of dead in the water, unfortunately. You'd think they should have run it at Survivor Series at the very least, but Flair as a heel challenging Hogan just wasn't the dynamic they knew what to do with, I guess.
People tend to forget that Flair's jump to the WWF came during the era where house shows were still the primary source of income (or at least a significant portion). While Flair-Hogan was probably the biggest feud of the era to not have a PPV blow-off, it wasn't the only one.
ReplyDeleteWasn't Hogan leaving the WWF after Mania 8 regardless of his opponent? Kind of makes the whole argument a moot point because no way would Flair have gone over Hogan in his last match (nor should he have).
ReplyDeleteFlair just wasn't a believable threat to Hogan, who had been vanquishing behemoths for years. I'm sure they could have gotten around this somehow by playing up Flair's dirtiest player in the game gimmick but I think most casual fans had no idea who Flair was, despite his impressive resume in NWA/WCW.
ReplyDeleteI mean, I was 11 when Flair came in and was like, "Why's this old guy with the blurry belt stepping up to Hulk?" when I was more interested in Hogan taking on the spooky Undertaker.
I've always figured they were scared of the fans turning on Hogan and him getting a mixed reaction. Hell, they cheered for freakin' SID over him at the Rumble.
ReplyDeleteTheir are 2 matches from MSG in late 91'. They are both very good if anyone is really looking to see Flair-Hogan from that era. I think one was on Greatest Superstars of the 90's DVD. I loved Flair's 91-93 run, and it could have been so much better.
ReplyDeleteThis. While I'm sure there were plenty of fans that were tuning into both shows I'm fairly sure my age group (10-11 at the time) weren't really aware of who Ric Flair even was.
ReplyDeleteOf course they cheered for Sid, "he's the master and the ruler of the world!"afterall
ReplyDeleteIt's true. :) Even in ECW they cheered for Sid!
ReplyDeleteAccording to the theories amassed over the years there are three potential reasons why it never happened:
ReplyDelete#1 -- It was not the draw they'd hoped for on the house show circuit, so why try to take a feud that's not doing well and push it into a WrestleMania match
#2 -- Sid was promised the shot at Hogan at WrestleMania as part of his contract when he was signed in April/May 1991, a few months before Flair. So they never could have done it at WrestleMania to begin with.
#3 -- The steroid (and sex) scandal reached fruition, culminating in a series of damanging pieces on TV as well as talks of investigation into the WWF. The WWF wanted Hogan to take an extended vacation while those issues cooled off as his reputation had been dragged through the mud.
#1 seems to be the WWE line -- but I think that's just their way of avoiding having to state that #3 is the truth. Hogan/Flair didn't do stratospheric numbers, but they had been doing much worse numbers throughout 1990, especially post Warrior and through most of 1991 as well. The period following WrestleMania 8 was really atrocious too -- so it's not that they had anything else that was going to draw better in the short term, it's just that business as a whole was in the toilet. WrestleMania 8 ticket sales were very slow too for the show they did put on. The "This could be Hogan's last match!" thing which facilitated his disappearance was also tacked onto match at the last minute, not coincidentally after a bunch of the tabloid shows aired pieces on the WWF scandals.
#2 is interesting though and was reported by Meltzer at least once, but he seems to have backed off that stance and also goes with the house show line now. That particular tidbit was reported by him maybe 5-6 years ago for the first time and it was never mentioned in the Observer back in 1991/1992, so I'm not sure what's going on with that.
Yeah I agree that this definitely was not a factor in it's favor due to the big man nature of the WWF Hogan opponents.
ReplyDeleteAlthough I will say, I live way over on the west coast in the Pacific Northwest, an area WCW never frequented in those days and I was pretty aware of Flair as a 10 year old, mostly because of TBS.
One is on the Hulk Hogan unreleased collector's series.
ReplyDeleteI was like 9-years-old when Flair came made his debut. I didn't get NWA/WCW. I had no idea who he was. When he showed up with the belt I assumed he was a boxer. I had no idea who he was or if he was a threat at all. Aside from jobbers he seemed like the usual pussy heel who couldn't win big matches on his own.
ReplyDeleteExactamundo. And as a young mark, I was thinking, "how is this guy going to beat Hulk Hogan? With the figure-four leg-lock? Gimme a break!"
ReplyDeleteAnd then I changed the channel to watch the latest adventures of Zack Morris, AC Slater, Screech Powers, Kelly Kapowski, Jesse Spano, Lisa Turtle and of course, Principal Belding.
I actually think they 'sweetened' the sound a bit for Hogan's entrance at WrestleMania 8. The pop just sounds 'off' to me, not quite right.
ReplyDeleteHaving said that, this all stemmed from the Royal Rumble and it is not like the crowd was booing Hogan out of the building and wildly cheering Sid -- there were scattered boos for Hogan at the Royal Rumble and some notable cheers for Sid. Enough to make the WWF take notice and react with paranoia about it, but I doubt Flair would have got a favorable reaction as he got pretty good heat during his run. Sid was always getting a pop it seemed.
I never get why this bothers people so much. The awesome Flair/Savage match at WM8 wasn't enough for you? Flair vs. Hogan was basically Flair working his usual Lex Luger formula, but with Hogan's stupid Popeye comebacks. Hogan never worked well with anyone smaller than him besides maybe Savage, despite how big he was Hogan always worked as the underdog. Him vs. Flair would have just not caught that vibe quite right.
ReplyDeleteSavage/Flair definitely should have gone on last at WM8, though I guess they wanted to close on the big Warrior run in that was botched all to hell.
Hogan/Piper? Hogan/Orndorff? Hogan/Shiek?
ReplyDeleteI agree. Well, I enjoyed the Hogan/Flair BATB 1994 match a lot and think it's one of Hogan's best matches. The Halloween Havoc match and the WWF matches are pretty good too.
ReplyDeleteBut yeah, Savage vs Flair was a better match than any of those matches, so it worked out for the best in the end. It was nice to see Savage get his big moment in front of a crowd that wasn't dead like the Trump Plaza crowd.
HEY, WHAT IS GOING ON HERE?
ReplyDeleteYeah, I always thought it was strange they ran Hogan/Flair both times so close together in MSG. The first show was on November 30th and then they ran it again on December 29th.
ReplyDeleteBelding and I are buds on Twitter.
ReplyDeleteHouse show business was poor post-WrestleMania because there was hardly anyone around IIRC. If you ever look at those house show cards from this period you wonder why in the hell anyone would want to go to a show.
ReplyDeleteI've wondered about that too. I can't see them having Flair walk out with even a DQ victory, given the way things worked back then.
ReplyDeleteI'm in my office right now and feel like cheering for Sid just because!
ReplyDeleteSid's just one of those guys with a great presence. His matches might suck, but there's something about a guy his size and the powerbomb/chokeslam that you just want to see over and over again.
ReplyDeleteSheik was shorter, not smaller, but don't tell him that, he thinks it's all FACKING BOOLSHEET
ReplyDeleteYeah, that surely didn't help. It wasn't just house shows though -- cable ratings and the ratings for the syndicated shows tanked as well. Business in the WWF and WCW were both terrible for the rest of the year, for everything but international tours.
ReplyDeleteWhile Hogan/Flair at BatB 94 was good, it would have been better at Starrcade. Seriously was it that hard to have Hogan come in as an ally to Flair, then have Ric turn on him in the Fall, then have the money match at Starrcade? Or was that an impossible scenario for some reason? It's not like Hogan would have looked bad so by all rights he would have been in favor of it.
ReplyDeleteYeah I always figured Vince went with savage over hogan was to great flair a great match at wrestlemania. Personally I think it worked out great
ReplyDeleteShiek and Orndorff were closer in size to Hogan, and honestly I was never all that impressed with any of the Hogan/Piper matches, their feud was all pretty much at its best verbally.
ReplyDeleteEast coast crowds have always loved the big monsters
ReplyDeleteI think you're right in retrospect, they would have got the most out of the match that way.
ReplyDeleteFrom what I can read from old Observers though, one of the reasons they wanted to do it quickly was because there was some concern about Hogan's drawing power, especially in the long-run. WrestleMania X didn't do much lower of a buyrate than WrestleMania IX, for which Hogan had been a big selling point.
I think the initial idea was to strike while the iron is hot so to speak, because it was likely that Hogan's run was going to be a fairly short one and run out of steam quickly. Plus there was always going to be the issue of having him not over as a face in a lot of towns WCW toured in.
I think honestly that the success of that first PPV was shocking to everyone, including WCW. They basically doubled the buyrate they were doing at the time, which was thought to be inconceivable.
They did the best gate for BATB 1994 than they had done in many years (I think since the 1989 BATB show) but they still had to give away a few thousand tickets to fill the place
up, so I think in hindsight, it probably would have worked out better to wait a little longer, but it was a pretty big gamble to begin with.
it must be something about his loose bowels too!
ReplyDeleteOK here's something that would have been the best of both worlds; Have the initial BatB match with the same result, do the second match at either a Clash or Fall Brawl, then do the last on at Starrcade and NOT Halloween Havoc. That way we would have been sparred having Ed fucking Leslie in a Starrcade main event.
ReplyDeleteWhat I have wondered about this feud was when did they decide to make the switch and go with Savage? Hogan had a perfectly believable reason to get the shot (he was screwed by Sid in the Rumble and was the last guy left) and then they even announced that Hogan would get the match on TV in that phony press conference with Jack Tunney. It seemed by time they had the press conference, it was set that it would be Sid/Hogan because of the way Sid reacted when Tunney announced that Hogan was getting the shot, but why bother with actually making a Hogan/Flair match if they weren't going to do it?
ReplyDeleteAs an aside, it's also funny how they came up with an actual reason for Savage to face Flair. Nowadays, he would've won a beat the clock challenge or geek battle royale to earn the title shot.
That's the way WWF did shows around that time. They ran MSG every month, and the match schedule usually ran in batches of three: heel wins by count out, face wins by dq, blowoff in a steel cage in month three. I went to both MSG Hogan-Flair matches and was a bit disappointed when they didn't have that third match.
ReplyDeleteTrue, although I don't think they could really support it by that point, at least not at the levels they were .
ReplyDeleteThey were running it every month in 1985, but by 1989 they were down to about 8 times a year, and they cut it to 5 in 1992.
Sounds good to me! haha.
ReplyDeleteI think the original plan was for Curt Hennig to be the masked man actually. I have a feeling that would have come off somewhat better than The Booty Discliple.
I'm pretty sure the whole "Elizabeth with Flair" thing was brought up AFTER the match was signed but I could be wrong. Still a great angle don't get me wrong but it might not have been the catalyst for the match.
ReplyDeleteYeah, it'd be interesting to figure out when the actual decision was made and set in stone to do Hogan vs Justice and Flair/Savage.
ReplyDeleteOne thing I always think of -- you have to assume that Savage was set to face Jake at WrestleMania originally -- it's hinted at in the SNME match (Jake peering behind the curtain and saying "it's not over").
When they re-aired the Savage/Roberts SNME on Superstars, they re-edited the order it was shown in and also showed 'additional backstage' footage where the Undertaker face turn happens. However if you look carefully, the footage is clearly not shot backstage at the same show -- it was shot in a totally different building. You'd think if that had been the plan all along that they would have just shot the footage backstage at the same show and aired it later as they normally did with these sorts of "additional footage" things.
So when the SNME match was taped (January 27, 1992), clearly Savage vs Jake was still the plan, which would have left Flair with nothing to do at WrestleMania if indeed the Sid match had always been the plan.
Really? Orndorff was 6'0, 250. Shiek was 6'0, 260, Flair was 6'1, 240, Hogan was 6'5, 302.
ReplyDeleteYes, the angle was put into motion after the signing of the match -- although they hinted at it at the start of the next Superstars episode.
ReplyDeleteGene announced the double main event one week and then during the opening of the following weeks Superstars, Mr. Perfect alludes to "knowing something about Savage" that will effect his performance at WrestleMania. The following week during the WrestleMania report, Flair closed his interview with saying "and Savage... we know something that you don't know" and the following week they did the big angle where Flair reveals the magazine photos.
Here is a little clip of it from one of my old tapes -- http://youtu.be/LGtXFNEAI1I
ReplyDeleteThe first twenty seconds are from the initial airing of SNME, then the next part is from the re-airing which was on February 22, 1992 (the week after the Savage/Flair match was announced).
Notice that in SNME airing you can see an open area over Jake's left shoulder and in the re-airing, there is a solid wall. He's also careful not to open the curtain all the way (since there is nothing on the other side but a light stand). Savage's arm isn't quite as taped up either.
Flair wrestled less of a power style, then, I guess, and that made some of a difference. Honestly I wasn't all that impressed with his Sheik match either, and the Orndorff match was what it was. Hogan vs. a giant was the set formula by 92, he didn't really prefer to work with guys like Flair where his lack of technical skills would be in full show.
ReplyDeleteI guess - but the Orndorff matches drew like crazy. Probably the highest money drawing house show series ever and it put 70K in Toronto. Hogan could work technically if he had to - check out some of his work in Japan.
ReplyDeleteI love Sid. I have no reason to, but I just love Sid.
ReplyDeleteGood timing!
ReplyDeletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lHI3sZfVLxc
ReplyDeleteThought the exact same thing at the time. Flair looked so old and out of shape compared to the other WWF wrestlers. I couldnt work out at the time how this saggy breasted old dude somehow manage to win the Rumble. In hindsight I love that period but at the time I can definitely understand why the WWF d9id what they did.
ReplyDeleteAnd really, we know there wouldve been some BS ending to a Hogan_Flair match at Mania. I wouldve loved to of seen Savage-Roberts blow-off but Flair-Savage is an all-time great WM main event.
What happened with Sid departing WWF after WM that year? What was his program meant to be? Was he already on the way out?
He was massively over and was an extremely beleivable main event heel/face. I think Savage-Sid could've been decent. Even a Warrior/Savage vs Flair/Sid/perfect although I suppose Flair wouldnt of wanted to work with Sid.
Great point.
ReplyDeleteMcmahon brought a lot of talent together with the national expansion and had dream matches for years. He couldnt have run them all, or he did... on the house show circuit.
This is the biggest reason(s) why Flair/Hogan didnt happen.
ReplyDelete1. Flair didnt draw well north of Chicago.
2. Hogan didnt draw at all* south of Philly. *=exaggerating
3. If they ran in the south, flair would get cheered Hogan, booed.
4. If they ran up north, Hogan would get cheered, Flair would get crickets*
5. Hogan only works lik 15 minutes, Flair aint warm til 20 at the time
Its been said the ticket sales sucked and the reaction wasnt what they wanted.
Win.
ReplyDeletei watched a hogan jap match. it was very good.
ReplyDeleteAXE BOMBERRRRR!!!
Who do you program him with in the interim?
ReplyDeleteand two.... CREATIVE CONTROL!!!
Nice to see you again Mr. Larunigtus
ReplyDeleteSo Hogan leaving was planned back from when Flair joined WWE the previous summer?
ReplyDeleteNo way. He'd usually take a little pre-Summer Slam vacation every year, but Hogan's exit from the WWF after WrestleMania 8 was quite abrupt, there was no intention for him to be away for a year when Flair signed.
ReplyDeleteAfter the sex scandal broke, Vince reported to the media in early March that the charges against Pat Patterson and Terry Garvin were false and also that Hogan had not told the complete truth on Arsenio the previous July, but said that he'd told him to come clean and that he was 'devastated' that Hogan didn't. Right! lol
I think that was the turning point and what led to Hogan separating himself from the organization for an extended period. A week later, Meltzer reported that WrestleMania would be the last booking for Hogan and he went to go film Mr. Nanny.
Okay, here's my opinion of my Hogan-Flair didn't headline Wrestle Mania 8.
ReplyDeleteWWE had to protect both Hogan and Flair!! Hogan was likely to return at some point (which did happen in Jan. '93). Therefore, Hogan had to be protected for the future AND there's no way Hogan drops his supposed last match ever. On the other hand, Flair couldn't be destroyed like so many Hogan opponents, because he was going to be the top heel in the company (post-WM 8) and couldn't be weakened by a one sided loss to Hogan. Now, I don't know when they made the change. Early Jan. '92? Late Jan. '92? That's the real question. When did Vince and company sink Hogan-Flair as the main event at WM 8. As far as house show attendance goes, I thought Hogan-Flair drew pretty well for that time and given that there was very little hype (maybe about a month) before they started going on the road with the match. Also, they kept acting like they hadn't wrestled yet on all the WWE national shows. So, I don't think people were aware they were wrestling unless the WWE had a house show in their town. (Oct '91 thru Dec. '91). The fact remains, WM 8 had a crowd of about 62,000 (1/3 of the upper seating bowl at the Hoosier Dome was empty) and they would've put 75,000 in there with Hogan-Flair. One of the most disappointing events in wrestling history, Hogan-Flair never had the match they should've.
"It's been said"? By who?
ReplyDeleteThey drew 15,000 at MSG for their little hyped match in late October. I think that's a pretty decent crowd for late '91 (bad time for business) and without any big hype regarding the match. Remember, Flair was in a program with Piper at the time. Hogan-Flair was a side story as far as the national TV shows were concerned.
I forgot that detail, but that actually makes good sense, since the whole thing turned out to be phony... it was Flair's camp trying to get into Savage's head by getting him off his game for the WM match.
ReplyDeleteSo it turns out they SHOULD HAVE done a Beat the Clock challenge to get Savage in the match! :)
Very interesting... that was the same show that Sid turned on Hogan, too... so I wonder if they knew they wanted to go with Hogan/Sid, but didn't decide by that point an opponent for Undertaker? Or maybe they were planning Hogan/Sid for a post-WrestleMania run, but it seems early to run that angle if that were the case.
ReplyDelete