God, I remember that moment, and CRINGING when it happened. It's worse now, knowing that Lawler REALLY missed his mark and actually split Tommy's testicle with the shot...
Still one of the best times to be an ECW fan, though.
Were those supposed to be piledrivers that RVD and Sabu gave Dreamer and Sandman? If so, guess they were tired from having them up forever while the lights were off.
Dreamer really did have the worst of luck. Didn't Foley have a story about trying to help Dreamer bleed only he kept pummeling the poor guy, enough that Dreamer had to say, "Please stop hitting me"?
I wonder: was Tommy encouraging Cornette to keep hitting him with the racket while he was laying there with a freshly forked gonad to not break from the script? Or was Cornette completely unaware and just laying into Tommy while he was in the worst pain a guy could possibly feel? If that was the case I think Tommy is fully owed a free sacktap on Corny, with no blocking. The least he could do, really. Tommy just has the worst luck.
Tommy became a star without much actual wrestling ability, ended up married to Beulah, and made a ton of money (from working for WWE post-ECW) in a career he wasn't really suited for. I'd say his luck wasn't nearly as bad as we think. Though he definitely paid his dues. Probably a few others' as well.
Race taught Foley how to open someone hardway by hitting their forehead at the right angle with an extended knuckle. Foley tried it on Tommy and couldn't do it it.
The devil walks up to you and says: "I'm going to allow you to become a big star, but not necessarily the top star, in a cult favorite wrestling company that has a spotty track record with paying their employees. Fans will love you, but not necessarily think you're a great wrestler. Afterward you will be a small-scale star in the top wrestling company, although you'll make most of your money there evaluating and training young talent and you'll see all your friends get fired over time. You'll also marry an attractive and intelligent woman, so that's a plus. In exchange, however, you're going to suffer a ton of injuries, not the least of which happens when an old man who has gone on record as not respecting the kind of wrestling you do or the company you work for whacks you in the nuts with a bamboo stick and snaps your testicle in half. Also throw in a broken neck and chronic back problems, plus multiple concussions." Do you take that deal?
Could've been a WHOLE lot worse for Tommy, though. He couldn't not made the money he did or ended up with Beulah, and *still* had all that pain and suffering. I imagine a lot of ECW/XPW/CZW alums had careers with those bullet points.
Okay, I usually don't take part in conversations in the comments, but the misinformation about some stuff on here just kills me.
a) Tommy made tons of money in ECW. Don't kid yourself- he was Paul's #2, and there was TONS of money coming in and out. I LOL hard when the people on this board get wrapped up in the "culture" of being a "smart" and lose sight of the forrest for the trees- Maybe Justin Credible as champion wasnt the storyline you would have liked. It didnt matter, ever. The letters ECW alone we're selling out arenas all over the East Coast and California until the day of their death. The final two ECW ppvs were sold out at the Hammerstein. ROH tried to run the Hammerstein and was shamed back to the Manahttan Center. ANYONE could have been champion- Justin Credible, Steve Corrino, me, Scott. Those places were selling out based on the letters period. I would guarantee that Tommy was one of the few making bank on all of the money from house shows and merch coming in.
b) Here we go into "believe me if you want" territory. Back when ECW was on its final legs I had a friend who was close to everyone in the company. This friend loved to gossip with me about Tommy's life (this was 1999-2000), and the big story was how Francine wanted Tommy to marry her and Tommy didn't wanna. I was shocked to shit to find out he was with Beuhlah at that 2005 ECW reunion show. So theres your big babyface, adulterous Tommy Dreamer. There was a reason he was grabbing Franny's tits at house shows in 2000 and why Steve Corino was jobbing to Franny.
I remember Corny on a shoot talking about the incident - he was hitting Tommy at first, but suddenly realized that he was legitimately hurt and moved on to another target.
Just for further clarification about the whole "ECW checks bouncing" issue: There was a sharp divide from the "big boys" of ECW who would have been gone in a flash if they were working for free (The Sandman, a guy who owned three businesses outside of being Sandman, at the time, comes to mind). The idea was that either you are a guy who was honna get
I know it's fun to look at the business like any kind of skill matters. I used to be that kind of wrestling fan, and, yes, it makes the fandom more fun. But the fact of the matter remains, it's a business. Period. To say that "Tommy became a star without much wrestling ability" is just reductive- what is your definition of "wrestling ability". Being Chris Benoit or Ric Flair? Come on. Tommy had the look, Tommy had the size, Tommy had the charisma, Tommy could talk, and Tommy took some "sick bumps" as per the style of the time (we also all wore onions on our belts).
Yes, he could not put on a "30 min clinic", ok, but aside from you saying that matters, how does that matter?
The Hammerstein is IN the Manhattan centre dumb ass. ROH ran the Hammerstein this passed Sunday and are running "Final Battle 2012" there in December. If your going to call someone out on being miss informed, at least have the courtesy get your facts straight
OMG shut up, They are two different rooms, and two different sizes. They have two different names for a reason, jackass. ROH was running HOT AS FUCK shows at the MC from 2006-2008, and then jumped to the larger venue. For two shows. And jumped back. If they ran the Hammerstein since, admittedly, I do not know. But don't get hung up on semantics; go watch your play fighting, dummy.
I can believe Tommy was getting some of the money just for having been Paul's right hand but a large number of people are on record saying they didn't get paid by Heyman or their checks bounced, including on the Rise & Fall DVD. Unless you're trying to be one of those know it all jerkoffs who is convinced everything a wrestler ever says is some elaborate work, that's pretty much accepted fact. ECW made money, for sure, they were outselling WCW on live shows for the last year or two. But was it all going to the wrestlers? Apparently not.
If Tommy was balling Francine while still married to Beulah he's got a serious case of Schwarzenegger Syndrome.
Not the wrestlers, correct. We are just talking about Tommy Dreamer, who was regarded more as management at the time. You are crazy if you think Tommy Dreamer, who was the #1 guy at house shows (Paul did not attend house shows, at least in 1999-2001), which includes a lot of cash business (merch, walk in tickets), was not skimming off the top. Esp in the dying months. Thats cute, but naive.
Listen, I am not trying to be a dick or troll this board. The fact is that I was a big fan of ECW from 1998-2001, I was friendly with a bunch of the wrestlers, knew a lot of company people, and was close with someone who ended up managing a lot of the wrestling post-ECW destruction in 2001. That is as specific as I'll get, but there is a difference between watching DVDs and reading the internet, and having been close to it for the last few years. You wanna tell me all about WWE? Sure. Go for it. But ECW? I think my input can be valuable.
They just ran it Sunday. But I totally understand where you're coming from. A friend of mine is a very good friend of both CM Punk and Batista from their OVW days and some of what he's told me really contradicts what's commonly accepted in the IWC. But, I'm just a guy on-line, so I'm not too bothered by it. (I will say my friend thinks highly of Batista. My friend arranged for Batista to do a favor for a mutual friend and it was really cool.) But generally speaking, people like you and I don't have the credibility to challenge commonly accepted beliefs.
I don't know or care who is right or wrong, but any wrestling fan telling any other wrestling fan to go watch play fighting is pretty hilarious, but not that great as a burn.
One thing I definitely don't miss about ECW is Alfonso. There's good manager heat and there's mute the tv because you're tired of hearing a fucking whistle non-stop during a Sabu match kind of heat.
Here's the link to the Ticket sales for Final Battle on ROHwrestling.com It says Hammerstein ballroom right in the description. http://www.rohwrestling.com/product/new-york-ny-december-16th
Damn straight I'll go watch my play fighting, in case you weren't aware, I'm a pretty big pro wrestling fan. Big fan of this wrestling blog too, it's called Scott's blog of doom, you should check it out sometime
I think he mentioned in a shoot interview that he had his own construction business while he was with ECW. Enough to cover the beer expenses, at least.
IIRC, he owned (at the time) a construction company, a bar, and a taxi cab company. He did the Sandman stuff for fun, but as an adult business man, no one he would have stuck around without being compensated.
I apologize. I've had a crazy day dealing with an INSANE instructor at a local MMA training place who took the "hard sell" to another planet. Note to self: Do not take it out on internet message boards.
I'm at the "pro wrestling stage" where I read this site for entertainment, and I LOVE the Meltzer show even if I primarily listen for MMA analysis. I just happen to call it "play fighting" burn or not. Come on, even as a wrestling fan you have to laugh at it a lil bit. And this is from someone who watched Psycho Balls Mahoney physically remove a person from the Cyberslam 2000 QnA where he felt a kid wasnt being "respectful enough". It's just play fighting with an audience! Come ON.
It's less about credibility, and there are clearly certain things anyone could have an opinion about. The product should be on the stage and on the screen, and we should be able to critique it without having "done" it. It's just that, this thread is about happenings 10-15 years ago, and pro wrestling will always be synonymous with revisionist history. I was close to it (even just a lil tiny bit close), and I can offer some insight into what people were saying back then, thats all. Just the idea that Justin Credible "killed the promotion" is enough to warrant my posting.
I was honestly unaware they were back at the Hammerstein. Do they pack it? I mean, the only way to know for sure is to be there for a show, but I can tell you that ECW had that place packed, standing room only, for the 4 shows I attended there (Look for 20 yr old me sitting front row, TV side @ Massacre on 34th St.!)
I like Tommy Dreamer. Couldn't care less that he can't wrestle a "30 minute clinic". Dreamer's problem (and most of ECW's) was he couldn't really wrestle a 10- or 15-minute match without hardcore garbage. The guy would've never amounted to shit without ECW and it's extreme style. He was a niche guy; and there's nothing wrong with that. But he was never going to make it as a regular wrestler with his lack of skillset.
I mean, Paul Heyman never even pushed Dreamer as the top guy and only gave him a cup-of-coffee title win when no one else was available.
You're right in that he wasn't versatile. But for ECW, he was fine and for WWE, he was never going to be a main eventer or anything. Anyone remember his short lived, and awful "Jackass" gimmick?
"Top guy" is relative, IMHO. Dreamer headlined Heatwave 2000, was supposed to headline Hardcore Heaven 2000... did he headline any other ECW ppvs?
The idea of him getting his brief title run was that Tommy's character thrived on loss and heartache. He was never "supposed to be" champion- the ECW title was more of a prop for the midcard anyway, when you had Dreamer, Sandman, and RVD as ECW's "true top guys".
I remember asking a guy in the company at the time when Sandman was going to get his big pay off title run (NOT counting GAC 2001), and the guy looked at me and said "why does he need it?" As a 20 yr old, maybe I didn't get that on my own, but Paul wanted a reason why we should care about Justin, Jerry, and Steve Corino dicking around in main events.
I called it pretty hilarious. In my brain, it was a great burn about someone bothering to watch wrestling...it's just that it's on a pro wrestling blog. It's like if you were having an argument with another dude, and you just said "Oh yeah, well, penises are weird looking!" Very accurate and amusing, but more of an insult grenade that you pulled the pin on and held onto the other guy while running at someone than an insult gun.
I don't remember where I heard it or read it, but I hope to never see or hear the phrase, "had to have blood drained from his swollen testicles," ever again.
God, I remember that moment, and CRINGING when it happened. It's worse now, knowing that Lawler REALLY missed his mark and actually split Tommy's testicle with the shot...
ReplyDeleteStill one of the best times to be an ECW fan, though.
Does "ouch" refer to Bill Alfonso's constant whistling?
ReplyDeleteBecause after five minutes, a split testicle sounds pretty good.
Tommy's scream is just... bloodcurdling.
ReplyDeleteWere those supposed to be piledrivers that RVD and Sabu gave Dreamer and Sandman? If so, guess they were tired from having them up forever while the lights were off.
ReplyDeleteDreamer really did have the worst of luck. Didn't Foley have a story about trying to help Dreamer bleed only he kept pummeling the poor guy, enough that Dreamer had to say, "Please stop hitting me"?
ReplyDeleteGood angle, horrible injury
ReplyDeleteFrom reading Bret's book, it sounds like Lawler was never a particularly safe worker. Not the first mishap he had with a weapon shot.
ReplyDeleteI seem to remember that...
ReplyDeleteOr was that Foley getting bled the hard way by Race or somebody? I really need to go re-read those first two books of his.
I wonder: was Tommy encouraging Cornette to keep hitting him with the racket while he was laying there with a freshly forked gonad to not break from the script? Or was Cornette completely unaware and just laying into Tommy while he was in the worst pain a guy could possibly feel? If that was the case I think Tommy is fully owed a free sacktap on Corny, with no blocking. The least he could do, really. Tommy just has the worst luck.
ReplyDeleteTommy became a star without much actual wrestling ability, ended up married to Beulah, and made a ton of money (from working for WWE post-ECW) in a career he wasn't really suited for. I'd say his luck wasn't nearly as bad as we think. Though he definitely paid his dues. Probably a few others' as well.
ReplyDeleteRace taught Foley how to open someone hardway by hitting their forehead at the right angle with an extended knuckle. Foley tried it on Tommy and couldn't do it it.
ReplyDeleteAaaaah, ok that makes sense. Thanks!
ReplyDeleteI knew there was some story with Foley and Race and bleeding, lol, because there are so many stories with Foley that *don't* involve bleeding =)
The devil walks up to you and says: "I'm going to allow you to become a big star, but not necessarily the top star, in a cult favorite wrestling company that has a spotty track record with paying their employees. Fans will love you, but not necessarily think you're a great wrestler. Afterward you will be a small-scale star in the top wrestling company, although you'll make most of your money there evaluating and training young talent and you'll see all your friends get fired over time. You'll also marry an attractive and intelligent woman, so that's a plus. In exchange, however, you're going to suffer a ton of injuries, not the least of which happens when an old man who has gone on record as not respecting the kind of wrestling you do or the company you work for whacks you in the nuts with a bamboo stick and snaps your testicle in half. Also throw in a broken neck and chronic back problems, plus multiple concussions." Do you take that deal?
ReplyDeleteAs long as mid-90's Beulah is part of the deal......yes.
ReplyDeleteDo you mean Harley Race, that dude that was made champion for all the kids they were targeting?
ReplyDeleteCould've been a WHOLE lot worse for Tommy, though. He couldn't not made the money he did or ended up with Beulah, and *still* had all that pain and suffering. I imagine a lot of ECW/XPW/CZW alums had careers with those bullet points.
ReplyDelete^ This is the guy that called my kids ugly and wonders why I just keep lol'ing at his desperate posts begging my attention.
ReplyDeleteGood work.
No ouch refers to Tommy Dreamer getting a third testicle
ReplyDeleteIn this scenario...does the broken ball come before or after having children?
ReplyDeleteIf before...I'm in.
If after...what's the point?
Okay, I usually don't take part in conversations in the comments, but the misinformation about some stuff on here just kills me.
ReplyDeletea) Tommy made tons of money in ECW. Don't kid yourself- he was Paul's #2, and there was TONS of money coming in and out. I LOL hard when the people on this board get wrapped up in the "culture" of being a "smart" and lose sight of the forrest for the trees- Maybe Justin Credible as champion wasnt the storyline you would have liked. It didnt matter, ever. The letters ECW alone we're selling out arenas all over the East Coast and California until the day of their death. The final two ECW ppvs were sold out at the Hammerstein. ROH tried to run the Hammerstein and was shamed back to the Manahttan Center. ANYONE could have been champion- Justin Credible, Steve Corrino, me, Scott. Those places were selling out based on the letters period. I would guarantee that Tommy was one of the few making bank on all of the money from house shows and merch coming in.
b) Here we go into "believe me if you want" territory. Back when ECW was on its final legs I had a friend who was close to everyone in the company. This friend loved to gossip with me about Tommy's life (this was 1999-2000), and the big story was how Francine wanted Tommy to marry her and Tommy didn't wanna. I was shocked to shit to find out he was with Beuhlah at that 2005 ECW reunion show. So theres your big babyface, adulterous Tommy Dreamer. There was a reason he was grabbing Franny's tits at house shows in 2000 and why Steve Corino was jobbing to Franny.
I remember Corny on a shoot talking about the incident - he was hitting Tommy at first, but suddenly realized that he was legitimately hurt and moved on to another target.
ReplyDeleteTommy should have gone to WCW and work for Uncle Eric like Cactus Jack told him to.
ReplyDeleteJust for further clarification about the whole "ECW checks bouncing" issue: There was a sharp divide from the "big boys" of ECW who would have been gone in a flash if they were working for free (The Sandman, a guy who owned three businesses outside of being Sandman, at the time, comes to mind). The idea was that either you are a guy who was honna get
ReplyDeleteI know it's fun to look at the business like any kind of skill matters. I used to be that kind of wrestling fan, and, yes, it makes the fandom more fun. But the fact of the matter remains, it's a business. Period. To say that "Tommy became a star without much wrestling ability" is just reductive- what is your definition of "wrestling ability". Being Chris Benoit or Ric Flair? Come on. Tommy had the look, Tommy had the size, Tommy had the charisma, Tommy could talk, and Tommy took some "sick bumps" as per the style of the time (we also all wore onions on our belts).
ReplyDeleteYes, he could not put on a "30 min clinic", ok, but aside from you saying that matters, how does that matter?
The Hammerstein is IN the Manhattan centre dumb ass. ROH ran the Hammerstein this passed Sunday and are running "Final Battle 2012" there in December. If your going to call someone out on being miss informed, at least have the courtesy get your facts straight
ReplyDeleteOMG shut up, They are two different rooms, and two different sizes. They have two different names for a reason, jackass. ROH was running HOT AS FUCK shows at the MC from 2006-2008, and then jumped to the larger venue. For two shows. And jumped back. If they ran the Hammerstein since, admittedly, I do not know. But don't get hung up on semantics; go watch your play fighting, dummy.
ReplyDeleteI can believe Tommy was getting some of the money just for having been Paul's right hand but a large number of people are on record saying they didn't get paid by Heyman or their checks bounced, including on the Rise & Fall DVD. Unless you're trying to be one of those know it all jerkoffs who is convinced everything a wrestler ever says is some elaborate work, that's pretty much accepted fact. ECW made money, for sure, they were outselling WCW on live shows for the last year or two. But was it all going to the wrestlers? Apparently not.
ReplyDeleteIf Tommy was balling Francine while still married to Beulah he's got a serious case of Schwarzenegger Syndrome.
This, too.
ReplyDeleteNot the wrestlers, correct. We are just talking about Tommy Dreamer, who was regarded more as management at the time. You are crazy if you think Tommy Dreamer, who was the #1 guy at house shows (Paul did not attend house shows, at least in 1999-2001), which includes a lot of cash business (merch, walk in tickets), was not skimming off the top. Esp in the dying months. Thats cute, but naive.
ReplyDeleteListen, I am not trying to be a dick or troll this board. The fact is that I was a big fan of ECW from 1998-2001, I was friendly with a bunch of the wrestlers, knew a lot of company people, and was close with someone who ended up managing a lot of the wrestling post-ECW destruction in 2001. That is as specific as I'll get, but there is a difference between watching DVDs and reading the internet, and having been close to it for the last few years. You wanna tell me all about WWE? Sure. Go for it. But ECW? I think my input can be valuable.
ReplyDeleteThe Sandman owns his own business? Doing what?
ReplyDeleteThey just ran it Sunday. But I totally understand where you're coming from. A friend of mine is a very good friend of both CM Punk and Batista from their OVW days and some of what he's told me really contradicts what's commonly accepted in the IWC. But, I'm just a guy on-line, so I'm not too bothered by it. (I will say my friend thinks highly of Batista. My friend arranged for Batista to do a favor for a mutual friend and it was really cool.) But generally speaking, people like you and I don't have the credibility to challenge commonly accepted beliefs.
ReplyDeleteI don't know or care who is right or wrong, but any wrestling fan telling any other wrestling fan to go watch play fighting is pretty hilarious, but not that great as a burn.
ReplyDeleteHe fabricates kendo sticks.
ReplyDeleteOne thing I definitely don't miss about ECW is Alfonso. There's good manager heat and there's mute the tv because you're tired of hearing a fucking whistle non-stop during a Sabu match kind of heat.
ReplyDeleteExcept that I said you're probably right. Tone it down, buddy.
ReplyDeleteHere's the link to the Ticket sales for Final Battle on ROHwrestling.com It says Hammerstein ballroom right in the description.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.rohwrestling.com/product/new-york-ny-december-16th
Damn straight I'll go watch my play fighting, in case you weren't aware, I'm a pretty big pro wrestling fan. Big fan of this wrestling blog too, it's called Scott's blog of doom, you should check it out sometime
I think he mentioned in a shoot interview that he had his own construction business while he was with ECW. Enough to cover the beer expenses, at least.
ReplyDeleteIIRC, he owned (at the time) a construction company, a bar, and a taxi cab company. He did the Sandman stuff for fun, but as an adult business man, no one he would have stuck around without being compensated.
ReplyDeleteI apologize. I've had a crazy day dealing with an INSANE instructor at a local MMA training place who took the "hard sell" to another planet. Note to self: Do not take it out on internet message boards.
ReplyDeleteI'm at the "pro wrestling stage" where I read this site for entertainment, and I LOVE the Meltzer show even if I primarily listen for MMA analysis. I just happen to call it "play fighting" burn or not. Come on, even as a wrestling fan you have to laugh at it a lil bit. And this is from someone who watched Psycho Balls Mahoney physically remove a person from the Cyberslam 2000 QnA where he felt a kid wasnt being "respectful enough". It's just play fighting with an audience! Come ON.
ReplyDeleteIt's less about credibility, and there are clearly certain things anyone could have an opinion about. The product should be on the stage and on the screen, and we should be able to critique it without having "done" it. It's just that, this thread is about happenings 10-15 years ago, and pro wrestling will always be synonymous with revisionist history. I was close to it (even just a lil tiny bit close), and I can offer some insight into what people were saying back then, thats all. Just the idea that Justin Credible "killed the promotion" is enough to warrant my posting.
ReplyDeleteI was honestly unaware they were back at the Hammerstein. Do they pack it? I mean, the only way to know for sure is to be there for a show, but I can tell you that ECW had that place packed, standing room only, for the 4 shows I attended there (Look for 20 yr old me sitting front row, TV side @ Massacre on 34th St.!)
ReplyDeleteyou still have another teste
ReplyDeleteMust have been a pretty big company then.
ReplyDeleteI like Tommy Dreamer. Couldn't care less that he can't wrestle a "30 minute clinic". Dreamer's problem (and most of ECW's) was he couldn't really wrestle a 10- or 15-minute match without hardcore garbage. The guy would've never amounted to shit without ECW and it's extreme style. He was a niche guy; and there's nothing wrong with that. But he was never going to make it as a regular wrestler with his lack of skillset.
ReplyDeleteI mean, Paul Heyman never even pushed Dreamer as the top guy and only gave him a cup-of-coffee title win when no one else was available.
does that mean you were in THE BUSINESS!!! for a spell? cool.
ReplyDeleteGod no. It is totally embarrassing.
ReplyDeleteYou're right in that he wasn't versatile. But for ECW, he was fine and for WWE, he was never going to be a main eventer or anything. Anyone remember his short lived, and awful "Jackass" gimmick?
ReplyDelete"Top guy" is relative, IMHO. Dreamer headlined Heatwave 2000, was supposed to headline Hardcore Heaven 2000... did he headline any other ECW ppvs?
The idea of him getting his brief title run was that Tommy's character thrived on loss and heartache. He was never "supposed to be" champion- the ECW title was more of a prop for the midcard anyway, when you had Dreamer, Sandman, and RVD as ECW's "true top guys".
I remember asking a guy in the company at the time when Sandman was going to get his big pay off title run (NOT counting GAC 2001), and the guy looked at me and said "why does he need it?" As a 20 yr old, maybe I didn't get that on my own, but Paul wanted a reason why we should care about Justin, Jerry, and Steve Corino dicking around in main events.
Yeah I still don't see the point...
ReplyDeletethis. Dreamer in ECW might be the prime example of "doesn't need the title to be over".
ReplyDeleteHarley Race should have been repacked as a driver to manage Bob "Spark Plugg" Holly.
ReplyDeleteI called it pretty hilarious. In my brain, it was a great burn about someone bothering to watch wrestling...it's just that it's on a pro wrestling blog. It's like if you were having an argument with another dude, and you just said "Oh yeah, well, penises are weird looking!" Very accurate and amusing, but more of an insult grenade that you pulled the pin on and held onto the other guy while running at someone than an insult gun.
ReplyDeleteYeah, I never saw this before.. That scream is something.
ReplyDeleteSo Tommy was with Francine from 99-00, didn't marry her, then ended up back with Beuhlah. Don't see how that makes him adulterous.
ReplyDeleteLawler's hatred of ECW was only a character. Memphis wrestling is very similar to ECW.
ReplyDeleteYOU'RE HIRED.
ReplyDeleteHE'S GONNA....HE'S GONNA BILDZUKE!!!!!_
ReplyDeleteI don't remember where I heard it or read it, but I hope to never see or hear the phrase, "had to have blood drained from his swollen testicles," ever again.
ReplyDelete