Scott,
I came across the very lame Bret Hart Nitro debut on youtube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYW0KPhcNbM
And it got me thinking how badly WCW botched this and how the WWF spun the Montreal screw job into Mr. Mcmahon vs. Austin Gold while WCW did nothing with the momentum Bret had on his side.
Hindsight being 20-20 how would you have booked Bret's WCW debut? Even knowing how unmotivated Bret was and how whatever program you got him in would have ultimately been side tracked by politics and his unhappiness but the debut on Nitro should have been as big as when Hall and Nash showed up. I think an apology to the American fans after a year of trashing them would have been where I go and then have him be the savior to WCW against the NWO. In the ecosystem of Raw and Nitro it would make sense as the NWO were supposed to be "invading" and sent by the company that just tried to destroy Bret's legacy. Thoughts?
There were SOOOOO many better ways to book Bret than what they came up with. The first thing he should have done is come out and say "I'm still the real World champion because I never lost it!" and suddenly you've got a feud with the winner of the Sting-Hogan program. You could then run shows in Canada with that on top to giant heat. Bret could align himself with Bischoff for a REASON, because Vince screwed him over and he knows Bischoff won't. Whatever, there's so much money that Vince left on the table for WCW with the screwjob and they just ignored it ALL.
Yeah, but WCW had to start setting up that awesome Wolf Pac angle. That was way more important than snagging Bret Hart coming off a highly-publicized exit and utilizing him properly.
ReplyDeleteThe thing is, they almost had it right. The nWo claims they have Bret....Bret comes back as just about the biggest babyface WCW had at the time (non-Sting) division...it made sense to build up the is he nWo or is he not angle? the nWo in late 1997 is still red-hot and there's so many direction they could've gone with - turn Bret nWo as Scott said w/ Bischoff or have him align with WCW because the nWo is screwing people over (which is sort of what they went with).
ReplyDeleteOf course, the biggest problem is they waited too long for Bret to debut. I forget if that was Bret's idea or Bischoff's but by the time Bret came back - Vince had already defined the narrative of what happened.
No matter how they booked Bret, they should've had him on Nitro ASAP ripping into Vince McMahon & the WWF. Instead, Vince got to play the sympathy card against big, bad WCW and WCW was never able to shake that label.
People say CM Punk is a whiny bitch now.
ReplyDeleteHe's got nothing on Bret Hart in 1998.
I don't think there was really anything they could do with him that the fans would've related to, he was such damaged goods after Montreal (and still is, honestly).
Even as a heel I don't think it would've worked. "I know what it's like to screwed over by management so I've...aligned myself with management!" "Vince McMahon screwed me so now I'm a friend of Eric Bischoff's, despite working the last year of my career to help establish a guy who...got screwed by Eric Bischoff..."
I just don't feel like he would have ever connected with that audience in "The WCW".
This is exactly why Vince had no problem with Bret going to WCW - aside from dropping a huge contract from the payroll and knowing that Bret would never play along with the new direction of the WWF, he also knew WCW would never know how to use Bret.
ReplyDeleteIf you watch the Ntro's following Souled Out '98, it seemed they were building to Bret and Flair vs. Hall and Nash at SuperBrawl VIII.
ReplyDeleteHappy Father's Day to Scott and all the Dad's here on the Blog.
ReplyDeletehttp://goo.gl/UGFPV
ReplyDeleteI think Mick Foley said it best when he said WCW could screw up a wet dream.
ReplyDeleteThe slow burn was a mistake. Bret should have been on Nitro immediately. You could've hat NWO open the show saying they had Bret, but by the end of that show, Bret should've been out there cutting a heartfelt promo to bury WWF and capitalize on the sympathy he had.
ReplyDeleteDue to WCW's upper card guys only having a fixed number of dates, not every main eventer would be on every PPV. It's certainly odd by today's standards since it's extremely rare to see top tier WWE talent off a PPV if they are healthy.
ReplyDeleteA weird example is Hogan being absent from the Starrcade 95 card. Could you imagine Cena not being at Mania for no good reason?
Looking at Starrcade 98 is even odder - you have Bret, Sting, Luger, Savage, Hogan, Benoit, Hennig, and both Steiners absent from the card. You'd think audiences would want to see some combination of them over Prince Iaukea vs. Norman Smiley or Perry Saturn vs. Ernest Miller.
Savage was in a 6 man tag at Starrcade '97, so a one-on-one match with Bret could have happened. Flair vs. Hennig was suppose to happen, but Flair was injured, so DDP got the U.S. Title instead. As far as Starrcade '98, Bret couldn't wrestle due to injury, besides Hogan was preparing to run for President.
ReplyDeleteStarrcade '95 is interesting. Had Hogan worked that show, I would have book Hogan vs. Savage for the title, with Savage winning after The Giant chokeslams Hogan on the floor. Flair wins the triangle match, then defeats Savage to win the title.
That's why you don't turn your back on the Wolfpac.
ReplyDeleteThanks! I got a bunch of UFC figures and Pride Fighting Championships Volume 4 DVD sets for gifts today, so it's been a pretty sweet day thus far. The PPV tonight would probably just ruin it, so I'm skipping it.
ReplyDeleteHilarious.
ReplyDeleteWhen did Bret's contract actually expire? Would he have been able to appear on Nitro before "Bret Screwed Bret" or not? I don't remember anymore.
ReplyDeleteBret's character hinges on him being the best. If he isn't, then it just doesn't work. Thing is, they could have booked him that way and still end up with everyone looking stronger.
ReplyDeletePresume that holding Bret's debut off would have resulted in Sting creaming Hogan for the title without the Nick Patrick bullshit.
The VERY NEXT NIGHT I would have Hogan demand a rematch but get taken out by a mysterious figure in the back moments before his introduction. Sting waits for a challenger while the nWo freaks out over Hogan's injury, and instead is met by a debuting Bret Hart. The crowd goes batshit, Bret grabs a microphone and says just three words: "I want Sting."
The next week on Nitro the nWo declares that Bret will have to go through them first, which he periodically does by taking out one member at a time starting with Hennig at Souled Out. From there the nWo's infighting continues, allowing Bret to keep beating the odds and winning. Finally, Bret faces Hogan (who has lost subsequent rematches with Sting) with Savage and Nash interfering to give the Hitman the duke.
Then Bret - after playing a big role in the destruction of the nWo - finally takes on Sting, winning the WCW title. After the match is over, they go for a big respect hug... and Bret kicks Sting in the nuts, goes to town on his leg with a chair and the PPV ends with Sting caught in a ringpost figure four.
The next night, Bret trashes the entire company saying he came from "New York" and wiped the floor with the entire WCW roster. He claims no one can beat him - not Steve Austin, not Shawn Michaels, not Hollywood Hogan, not Sting - and backs it up by defeating DDP, Booker T and Chris Benoit over the next few weeks while the crowd chants "Goldberg" at him.
They face off at the Georgia Dome and a star is born.
Most people seem to think (and maybe rightfully so) that Bret could have been a huge star in WCW, but I have my doubts.
ReplyDeleteThe fans turned on Bret, that's why he turned heel. He was still popular in Canada, but America just got tired of his act and turned on him, siding with Steve Austin. As great as Steve Austin was, I think a lot of why people took to him was because they were just tired of Bret Hart and his constant "I'm the best" character. Would the American fans, who tired of him a year ago, love him after a year of him trashing them? What was a WCW fans perspective when it came to WWF? Would Bret have been massively popular just because the owner of the opposition screwed him over? Because a lot of those people watching WCW happily turned over to the WWF once it got hot, doesn't seem like there was a lot of "WCW loyalty".
And having him be the savior to take out the nWo is the same thing everyone complains about TNA doing - having a guy from the competition show up and be better than the rest of the roster. A group of renegade former WWF wrestlers take over WCW, until another WWF wrestler comes to save the day? Doesn't look good for WCW. Sting was their guy. Sting should have took down the nWo, and while they could've traded wins, Sting should've ultimately beat Bret Hart. Keep in mind that this is WCW now, and WCW doesn't revolve around Bret Hart's legacy. Sure, they could have made a lot of money off him while he was there, but in the end Bret Hart's not going to roll through WCW to prove he's the best there is, best there was, best there ever will be in both companies.
Talking about WCW at this time got me to thinking - was having Sting sit out until he faced Hogan the best move? I know it lead to huge anticipation for their match, but it might've been a better storyline for Sting to roll through the top guys of the nWo on his way to Hogan. I think Sting beating Hogan should've ended the nWo right then and there, but it's hard to do that when it's Sting's first match back. You usually need a couple of matches to raise the stakes.
I agreed. Actually, I already commented above, but I pretty much agree with you.
ReplyDeleteI think Bret was on Nitro as soon as he was legally able to. He was still under contract past Montreal, he just wasn't showing up, for obvious reasons. Which is sort of odd when you think about it since there was all this talk of him showing up on Nitro with the belt, when he wasn't legally able to be on Nitro until a month after Montreal. Maybe they didn't like the idea of WCW announcing that the current WWF Champion has signed with them?
ReplyDeleteI'd go the other way with it. Hype Bret's debut but don't have him appear until after Starrcade. Sting beating Hogan should have ended the nWo, then Bret Hart coming to WCW is the big angle for the new "season" after the Sting/nWo blowoff.
This is phenomenal. Although I'd decompress your timeline a bit, and drag Bret's heel run with the title out until Starrcade. Maybe Bret beats Hogan at Slamboree, and Sting at GAB. Then, mixed in with the elevated midcarders like DDP, Booker, and Benoit, Bret defends against WCW icons like Flair, for the "dream" matches they didn't run earlier in the year when he was exclusively running through the nWo. All the while he's ducking Goldberg, until Goldberg wins World War 3, and there's no escape at Starrcade.
ReplyDelete"...they were just tired of Bret Hart and his constant "I'm the best" character."
ReplyDeleteThis right here describes why I never liked him to begin with.
Seeing as how Bret ending up reffing part of the match anyway, this is a pretty good idea.
ReplyDeleteYeah but cena's wrestling big show, and if show loses johny ace is fired!!!!!!!
ReplyDeleteI'm not sure if WWE has had a less than good PPV all year. It's actually been one of the few consistent positives about the company in 2012. I think there have been multiple four star matches on the last three PPV shows. Rock-Cena, both Punk-Jericho matches, HHH-Taker, Cena-Lesnar, Bryan-Sheamus (2 out of 3 falls), 4-way title match at Over the Limit, Bryan-Punk, etc. And now you have the promise of a Ziggler singles match and another Bryan-Punk matchup. Say what you want about the weekly tv shows, but they're bringing the goods on these PPVs.
ReplyDeletePretty sure Vince told Bret that WCW would never know how to use him correctly. Vince may be senile about a lot of stuff in 2012 but he was 100% correct about that prediction.
ReplyDeleteA lot of Bret Hart love and fantasy booking but IMO Hart was to Vince what the Public Enemy was to Paul Heyman. Vince accentuated Bret's strengths and hid his weaknesses. WCW was the wild west. There was more free flow to interviews, angles and storylines with a lot more wrestler input. Bret Hart never excelled in that environment until Russo pushed him to the moon and killed the company.
ReplyDeleteBret Hart looked like a fool when he went face to face with Ric Flair. Scott Hall, Hogan, Nash, DDP, Steiner etc all would have cut him to pieces.
Also Bret was the face of the losing brand there's no way he deserved to be in the top spot when Sting was the #1 wrestler popularity wise in the world at that point.
WCW bringing in WWF's top guy and treating him like a midcarder was actually a great move, it showed WCW was superior.
Maybe they lost some revenue and definitely did not build dream matches vs Hogan, Sting, Macho etc but there's no way the guy should have ever been "the man".
A final point is the whole Attitude era bred contempt for "old school" whether it was the nWo against tradition or Austin vs the old guard HBK & Bret Hart, suddenly taking this guy fans don't want to cheer and make him the top guy because of a pity pop is ridiculous. Bret Hart lacked the charisma to be a top guy in the new WCW or WWE in 1997.
"WCW bringing in WWF's top guy and treating him like a midcarder was actually a great move, it showed WCW was superior."
ReplyDeleteHoly shit, we may have just found someone who liked how the 2001 invasion angle played out. Further research is required.
You can look for some kind of logic in what WCW's treatment of the
ReplyDeleteHitman, but it's pretty clear that there wasn't anything even
remotely close to logic in that company.
Bret Hart was the hottest commodity in wrestling at the end of 1997. Period.They HAD to do something with him and ultimately didn't even try. That's pathetic. Less than a month after they'd fucked up his debut (and fucked up Sting in the process,) Steve Austin flipped Mike Tyson off and you might as well have taken WCW out back and shot it right then. Opportunity lost.
Uh, it's because the spot was beneath him. This was Bret Hart, one of the biggest stars in wrestling, coming into the company due to unprecedented real-life reasons....and you'd what, book him against Booker T in a TV title feud?
ReplyDelete"See if he Bret could get over on ring work." What? It's BRET HART. This is making Tony Stewart drive a cab for a while to see if he can handle a car.
Theoretically, having the upper-carders not wrestle on every PPV would've been a good thing, since it could've made their matches seem more special. Instead, WCW had a weird habit of having most of their main eventers skip the same PPVs, leading to cards like Starrcade 1998.
ReplyDeleteIf WCW had been run with any sort of focus or competence, Bret could have been very big there. Personally I preferred WCW in the 98-99 period because the actual wrestling was much better, despite the incoherent storylines, and I doubt if I was alone. If they had worried less about his "character" and just let him wrestle they might have been surprised, especially since Austin was already starting to wear thin from an in-ring perspective by the run-up to WM XV
ReplyDeleteHe basically had a month left under contract with the WWF, IIRC.
ReplyDeleteOr you could make a lot of money of dream matches and then have Bret put over a WCW native talent, like Goldberg...
ReplyDeleteDeccember 7, 1997 was the last day of his contract IIRC.,
ReplyDeleteI would have booked Bret vs. Savage at Starrcade '97.
ReplyDeleteIt's odd that Bret wrestled at Souled Out but not SuperBrawl VIII.
you might be right.
ReplyDeletebut fact is he was super hot at that time. if a face run doesn't work, bring him in/turn him heel. for example, let Sting finish of Hogan with backfired interference from Hart. the NWO kicks out Hogan and the next match could either be the newly turned babyface Hulk against Nash or Hart (if the decision would have been to go with the former, you could have easily booked Sting vs. Hart right there).
the thing is, they could have still done the Flair feud in the meantime. as Scott rightfully wrote, there were sooo many ways to book Bret Hart that would have been better than what we got.
ReplyDelete"I know what it's like to screwed over by management so I've...aligned myself with management!"
ReplyDeleteso you think the story of an employee who becomes so bitter that he not only changes his attitude (during his WWF run) but also totally desperate for being the "top guy" couldn't have worked? (btw: I realize this is basically the same motivation used for the Austin 2001 turn)
Ric Flair, is that you?
ReplyDeleteHonestly, wet dreams screw themselves up. I mean, sure, in the dream, which is as real as life, you're getting it on with Alison Rosen, and all is well...but then you wake up, and ugh. I much prefer it when I'm in control of my sex life.
ReplyDeletecuz your career might wind up in a body-bag.
ReplyDeleteI think it could've worked with someone else maybe, just not Bret. Bret as a heel just seemed like a whining bitch and nothing more, at least for me.
ReplyDelete