Hey now, one question per e-mail unless you're doing a list. THAT'S THE RULES. And since you're not a babyface champion, you don't get to break the rules. But I'll answer it this time anyway: The World Class set. There you go.
Anyway, I think it has more to do with the style of wrestling than the body type itself, because smaller guys tend to work a harder-hitting and faster-paced style, carrying muscle that the human body is just not built to carry. Plus there's been plenty of bigger guys like Test and Mike Awesome who HAVE died in the same fashion as smaller guys. I think it's just that wrestling as a whole will kill you if you let it.
However, look at all the big men who have died like Big Boss Man, Earthquake, brian adams, Bam Bam bigelow, Umaga. I would not call any of them highflyers (except bam bams headbutt) or ones that do crazy stuff.
ReplyDeleteBryan, Punk, Jericho don't do any of the crazy high flying stuff and have had long careers.
If you look at football, many of them have died young or lived horrible lives during/after football and many of these guys are huge. They work through injury and have a rough hard hitting style.
Bret Hart seems pretty wrecked every time I see him on TV. He looks worse than Flair to me.
ReplyDeleteYeah. But that stroke really took a lot out of him. Not sure if he's back to full mobility but that and concussion problems probably don't help him when he's trying to stay in shape.
ReplyDeleteBret would have been fine if it weren't for Goldberg's epic superkick. He had a style of wrestling you could work till you were 50.
ReplyDeleteTo add to the list VADER did awesome shit and could put on a 4 star match any night of the week. Best big man ever. Even after his shitty WWF run Vader went back to Japan and tore shit up.
ReplyDeleteThat was the result of a stroke, admittedly a stroke was brought on by an errant kick from a green Goldberg.
ReplyDeleteTenta died of cancer.
ReplyDeleteMethinks you guys are coming into this way uninformed.
My mistake about Tenta. However, the other 4 still stand.
ReplyDeleteWhile Mike Awesome was a big guy, he also did a lot of the crazy shit as the smaller guys so he doesn't really fit the criteria in the email. Plus he killed himself.
ReplyDeleteWasn't the stroke from a bike accident, not the Goldberg kick?
ReplyDeleteAwesome most famous feud involved him and Tanaka repeatedly beating each other in the head with chairs. I think there's at least a possibility that factored into his mental state.
ReplyDeleteThat's my point. He wasn't a typical big man who could get away with just being big. He was doing the same crazy shit the smaller guys were doing. I have no doubt it probably played into his suicide, but it wasn't drug abuse or steroids that killed him like it was with Curt, Eddy, and the like.
ReplyDeleteCorrect. Hart had the stroke in 2002. The Goldberg kick was in late 1999 or 2000 There may have been several other incidents that caused a concussion as well - there was also an incident where Hart put Goldberg in the ring-post figure four, and Hart fell and hit his head on the concrete.
ReplyDeleteIt was me who emailed the question, I wasn't suggesting that no big men have died early but I think those that did are the exceptions to the rule. Bigelow, for example, didn't HAVE to do moonsaults and diving head butts, his size and unique look would have been enough for him to get over. Test and Awesome both had the right size and the right look, they didn't NEED to be daredevil workers.
ReplyDeleteBenoit, on the other hand,NEEDED to be bigger, so did Pillman. Hardy had to take insane bumps off ladders and tables. If they didn't either get bigger or stand out in some other way, their lack of size was always going to kneecap them.
Punk and Bryan have both, in my view, benefited from the fact that it seems to be finally dawning, at least in part, on the E's brain trust that the obsession with super-sized physiques has led to tragedy in the past and needs to be deemphasised.
Hogan, Nash, and Taker are all in really bad shape physically.
ReplyDeleteDidn't the figure-4 spot happen in the same match as the kick?
ReplyDeleteI think you're right. So yeah, it's definitely possible he suffered more than one concussion in the same match.
ReplyDeleteHennig and Rude were not small men, nor did they work the higher impact style. Those two simply lived the lifestyle a little too hard.
ReplyDeleteRight, you are. Bret had a series of concussions and complications following that kick, all of which came to a head when he had the bike accident/stroke.
ReplyDeleteYeah, ultimately this is about lifestyle choices, both in and out of the ring.
ReplyDeleteRey Mysterio could've certainly ended up like a Brian Pillman, or an Eddie Guerrero, but he made better choices than those guys did.
Shawn also. He was well on his way before the back injury forced him to go away and even then, he talked about how he continued to self-medicate until he found God or whatever.
ReplyDeleteSelf-medicate??????
ReplyDeleteI guess Shawn's not that bad of a guy after all if he's down with the smell of Colitas.
Sidebar: Let the boys in the locker room smoke weed. Seriously.
Hennig was a bump machine. His back was pretty much fucked by the early 90s.
ReplyDeleteNo argument there, but he wasn't a small guy, he was a decently big dude; but bumped like a small guy for everyone. I just don't think you can pidgeon-hole wrestling related deaths by size.
ReplyDeleteAgreed.
ReplyDeleteIt was the same match. Bret talks about it in his book. Goldberg gave him 3 concussions. First he elbowed him in the head, then didn't protect Bret on the corner figure-four, then the superkick.
ReplyDeleteRegarding Scott Hall...I am a Mental Health Professional, and knowing that Hall suffered from PTSD, I give that guy a pass. There's a ton of issues there.
ReplyDeleteI understand, wasn't really judging him. In fact, I try not to judge any of these guys. We all make bad mistakes in life, some worse than others. However, none of us have lived a day in their shoes, so like Hall, there are always other issues under surface that many times we are not aware of.
ReplyDeleteI can't help but judge certain things, like HBK's attitude in the late 1990s...and Nash's interview from today.
ReplyDeletelol, I have my moments as well, especially with the present state of RAW and HHH. :-)
ReplyDeleteYou all have to check out Jericho's twitter. He actually responded to the Nash quotes, stuck up for Eddie, and mentioned the wwf hell known as 1995. Then Nash responded talking about he's this great puppetmaster or some crap. Even Roddy Piper's joining in, sticking up for Jericho.
ReplyDeleteFucking love Jericho.
ReplyDeleteI feel Jericho, since those were his guys, but again in WRESTLING little guys dont draw. Boxing/MMA yes, they draw and draw well.
ReplyDeleteWrestling is different. Always has been, always will be.
We have been programmed that way for at 30 years now. Deal with it and Jericho is a mark. Most of those Canadians are marks.
Im not a Nash fan but Im siding with the truth and Nash is spitting the truth about what draws in wrestling.
Kurt Angle was legit 5'10 (thanks Olympics). He drew. when you saw him next to guys like Jericho and Benoit, he didn't look taller than them, at least to me. kinda full of it on this one, fuj.
ReplyDeleteDrew a picture.
ReplyDeleteWhat did Kurt draw in the WWF? When was he ever put in a position to draw?
Now Kurt is a main eventer, but thats cuz he was brought up through the wwf system. No outside promotion stink to wash off. but to say he drew... His big run was a transitional reign in the midst of the biggest hot streak in wrestling. Every other run since was 2nd fiddle.
Love Kurts work.
Just not a draw in my eyes.
Good fun read. I've always liked Nash. This seems like just him cutting a promo to get people to notice him so he can make some money. Either WWE wants him to wrestle somebody, or he can get a film gig.
ReplyDeleteIn any war, I'll side with Piper.
ReplyDeleteDeal with what? Diesel didn't draw me in as a fan. WWE/WCW has received my money for tickets and merchandise because of guys like HBK, Bret Hart, Roddy Piper, Steve Austin, Chris Jericho, CM Punk, Daniel Bryan, Dolph Ziggler, Brian Pillman, Eddie Guerrero, Randy Savage, and Owen Hart. I either bought a ticket or PPV to see them, bought some of their merchandise, or bought a DVD specifically for them. They "drew" me, and there has been millions more like me over the last two decades.
Other than Hogan's run, can you really find a direct correlation between money making and size?
I think the bike accident was a result of the concussion syndrome. I'm pretty sure he passed out while riding his bike and that's how he fell and hit his head. Which than lead to the stroke. Its pretty unusual for 40 whatever year old men to have strokes.
ReplyDeleteIMO I think the concussions he received in that match were actually a cumulative thing from years of wrestling combined with the unprotected shots he took from a green Bill Goldberg. Even though Bret did wrestle a generally safe style, I don't think there is anyway to protect from never getting one. The Goldberg match being the perfect example. So I'm sure he had a few more concussions before that.
Plus they say that one concussion makes you more susceptible to multiple concussions. And we know, especially in those days, guys didn't get time off to recover from head injuries.
Truth, brother. Two concussions within days were enough for me to quit wrestling. I'd like to be 75 and remember my grandkids' names.
ReplyDeleteWell, technically, Bret was already knocked loopy in the match; he banged his head on the floor when he did the figure four around the ring post because Goldberg forgot to grab his foot when he fell back.
ReplyDeleteI don't recall Bret cracking his head during the Figure-4 Spot. Fill me in, brah! What is the story there?
ReplyDeleteHand over fist?! No.
ReplyDeleteBut Andre, Baba, Inoki, Taker (longevity), Bruno, have all made quite a bit of coin and thier size were a large part of the appeal.
Stooge....
ReplyDeleteJosh has a point. You've gotta stop saying whether or not guys were draws. The three examples that stand out are Eddie Guerrero, Chris Jericho, and unbelievably, I'm adding Kurt Angle to your list of "Guys Who Don't Draw".
The fact that you say Angle is not a draw is about as gross of a miscalculation as it gets, and it truly makes me wonder when you started watching wrestling regularly.
Kurt Angle was given the ball from October 2000-February 2001. He was also given the ball from December 2002-March 2003, and again from January 2006-April 2006. Any time a guy carries a championship for three months or longer, and headlines a Wrestlemania...they obviously have some appeal that warrants their spot on the card. Matter of fact...both Jericho (December 2001-March 2002) and Guerrero (February 2004-June 2004) accomplished those feats.
If you're speaking in comparison to the Rocks, Austins, and Hogans of this world, well of course you're right. Those guys drew stratosphere money, and very few can touch what they've done. But these three guys were horses, and ANY time I saw them on the card in my towns (Chicago, Peoria, Moline, St. Louis), I wouldn't miss it for the world. I can't be alone thinking that.
You are putting these dates out and again tell me Kurt Angle is drawing these shows.
ReplyDeleteLook at the cards Magz (thats my nickname for you, Magz)
Lets goto the books.
No Mercy 2000 Angle/Rock... but Austins first match back from injury... Yes its the Rock... but Austin was gone for a year. Is Angle the draw?
Survivor Series 2000 Angle/Taker (in snakeskin pants mind you)- didnt main event. Main event was Austin/HHH... again... Angle the draw?
Rebellion 2000- Angle/Rock/Austin/Rikishi UK PPV, guess who jobbed? Rock and Austin in the main. Angle the draw?
Armageddon 2000- 6 pack for the title. Rock/Austin/HHH/Taker/Kishi/Angle Main... Do we need to ask?
RR01- Rumble mains... Angle/HHH semi main... Trish/Steph got the heat spot in that match. Moving on.
NWO 01 Angle/Rock aka Forgone conclusion match, but HHH/Austin have thier blowoff 3 stages of Hell. Angle got over. But theres no way you can tell me he DREW those ppvs.
And his drawing power got worse after that. Not significantly but he wasnt a top guy. Angle got the title when people got injured. Thats why he jumped to SD in 06... to drop the belt to Mysterio who was already penciled in after Eddy passed.
Can you not see these title reigns are transitional?
Well, the Winter season is certainly when transitional champions come to the forefront, I'll give you that.
ReplyDeleteI just don't care for how you undercut these guys.
It's fucking WEIRD that people stand by Nash.
ReplyDeleteI mean, he did take great care of his hair.
Im not undercutting these guys. Angle is one my faves. But facts are facts.
ReplyDeleteYou can not be a transitional champion and be expected to draw real money. Thats the whole reason for being transitional. You are keeping it warm for the guy who they feel can draw the real money.
Sometimes they win... Rock/Austin... sometimes they lose... Mysterio...
To think im shitting on these guys is false, but thier place has been written in the sands of time. They were not draws. Great matches. Awesome guys (sans Benoit) but did not move the needle in any significant way because they were never given the oppurtunity to gain traction. and never had the full confidence of Vince.
Lets just say that kayfabe was still upheld and the business was never exposed.
ReplyDeleteAll Nash would be is a bad worker. Great talker, Great look, had some good matches with some great talent over the years and ended Goldbergs streak.
Its the business being exposed that turned Nash from bad worker, to bad booker, politician and general asshole to the smarks.
Its his fans that all they see is "limited worker" and thats it.
Points well taken. But for argument's sake, those men were part of a core foundation that kept me watching.
ReplyDeleteEven through the Nathan Jones/green Matt Morgan/Luther Reigns/Mark Jindrak Era.
Sounds like that table has three legs.
ReplyDeleteand everyone Vince had full confidence in was a draw?
ReplyDeleteSaying Angle wasn't a draw in the WWE is crazy to me. Saying he was never a draw in his carrer, say in a smaller promotion where he fought Samoa Joe on PPV is fucking batshit
ReplyDeletethere is a difference between draw and top draw, Eddie damn sure did draw the latino market, little guys draw us, giants draw casuals, can't we just admit it's a group effort with a few exceptions (Hogan, Austin, Rock, etc)
ReplyDeleteBut...but...you don't come on here and tell everyone how they're just marks who don't know anything and are just there to be worked. How can that be coming from someone "in the business"?
ReplyDeleteNash doesn't deserve all that "big man" credit anyway. He's a fucking beanpole. If he were a couple inches shorter he'd be one of those skinny guys who's too small to "draw" according to you.
ReplyDeleteTrue that on the Latino market thing. People don't realize that during Eddie's run on top, Smackdown was the number one rated show amongst Hispanics 18-35 pretty regularly. I know I sound like a Did You Know? here but that is a pretty major achievement. In heavier Latino markets he was most certainly a draw, as is Mysterio and others. A lot of merch money and ticket sales got moved that way, but it's a little bit of an invisible economy because people in non-Latino-populous areas didn't see all the advertising directed at them (I remember seeing WWE live show ads in Spanish). It's the same way that people have that bias that Austin was always more over than Rock when that wasn't the case everywhere.
ReplyDeleteHeadlined a mania. Also, Bret Hart and Ric Flair were in the same size category. Or do they not count as draws? This sorta comes back to what you consider a draw. Because, I mean, when you get done eliminating guys in this size category, you're left with Austin, Rock and Hogan as draws. certainly not Kevin Nash.
ReplyDeleteAlso, he phrased it as "I bet they could both walk through airports and not be noticed unless they have a gimmick shirt on and the belt." Heck, was Steve Austin so huge that when he's in an airport, if you got a passing glance you'd know it was him immediately? because a 6'1 redneck in a hunting jacket wouldn't stand out to me one inch. it's a silly sentiment, and it's just a guy pushing the paradigm wherein he's most relevant and the guys who weren't like him are not.
I think it was just what Mar said. For the figure-4 around the ring post to work, the guy receiving the hold has to help hold up the guy putting the hold on (one reason I always hated that spot). Goldberg didn't hold Bret up (or his hand slipped or he let go too soon, i don't remember the details), so Bret fell down and his head hit the concrete.
ReplyDeleteTrust me, it's hard sometimes.
ReplyDeleteThere are some contrarian trolls who, at first, felt my wrath. Problem was, there was a time when I couldn't distinguish the troll from the intelligent fan, and I lost sight of everything (this came up earlier this year).
After time went by, you come to learn that the good people listen and are willing to understand something, while the angry assholes will never, ever change.
It's common rule too that when you're established, you should at NO point throw a bone to a fan. You truly have no idea how much they know, or how crazy they are with their beliefs (like religion).
These days, it's much easier to tell an idiot "I won't dignify that with a response" than to try to stoop to their level.
I guess it comes down to what you mean by a draw. Obviously you have the real top guys - Hogan, Austin, Rock. Below that you have guys who were sucessful draws for a certain period of time, maybe limited to a certain region - just not at the Hogan/Austin/Rock level. I'm thinking of guys like Bruno, Flair, Dusty, the Von Erichs.
ReplyDeleteAnd even below that, you can probably think of specific feuds that were red-hot and drew money, even if the guys involved weren't top draws outside of that specific angle. like JYD vs. Michael Hayes in Mid-South (which may be unfair, I've heard JYD was pretty huge at his peak in Mid-South). The Midnight Express vs.Arn/Tully feud apparently was incredibly successful and drew money on the house show circuit, but that doesn't mean I'd build a promotion around any of those guys. But you have to give them credit for pulling off a successful feud that made money, and recognize that the right guys with the right angle can make money, even if they never headline a show again.
I guess it comes down to what you mean by a draw. Obviously you have the real top guys - Hogan, Austin, Rock. Below that you have guys who were sucessful draws for a certain period of time, maybe limited to a certain region - just not at the Hogan/Austin/Rock level. I'm thinking of guys like Bruno, Flair, Dusty, the Von Erichs. All pretty good draws at various points in their career, even if they didn't 'transform' wrestling like the other guys.
ReplyDeleteAnd even below that, you can probably think of specific feuds that were red-hot and drew money, even if the guys involved weren't top draws outside of that specific angle. like JYD vs. Michael Hayes in Mid-South (which may be unfair, I've heard JYD was pretty huge at his peak in Mid-South). The Midnight Express vs.Arn/Tully feud apparently was incredibly successful and drew money on the house show circuit, but that doesn't mean I'd build a promotion around any of those guys. But you have to give them credit for pulling off a successful feud that made money, and recognize that the right guys with the right angle at the right time can make money, even if they never headline a show again.
I think a lot of this argument comes down to what you mean by a 'draw'. Obviously you have the real top guys - Hogan, Austin, Rock. Below that you have guys who were sucessful draws for a certain period of time, maybe limited to a certain region - just not at the Hogan/Austin/Rock level. I'm thinking of guys like Bruno, Flair, Dusty, the Von Erichs. All pretty good draws at various points in their career, even if they didn't 'transform' wrestling like the other guys.
ReplyDeleteAnd even below that, you can probably think of specific feuds that were red-hot and drew money, even if the guys involved weren't top draws outside of that specific angle. like JYD vs. Michael Hayes in Mid-South (which may be unfair, I've heard JYD was pretty huge at his peak in Mid-South). The Midnight Express vs.Arn/Tully feud apparently was incredibly successful and drew money on the house show circuit, but that doesn't mean I'd build a promotion around any of those guys. But you have to give them credit for pulling off a successful feud that made money, and recognize that the right guys with the right angle at the right time can make money, even if they never headline a show again. Or Honky Tonk Man during his IC run, where he'd headline the WWF's B-shows. Once he lost the belt to the Warrior, he was never going to headline a show again and quickly plummeted down the card - but it was a good run while it lasted.
Exactly, the arguments on this forum seem to be about weather the person, ONE PERSON, could sell out a show, and i don't think that's how the wrestling business is anymore, everyone there is there for someone else, for the talk of Sheamus being a shitty draw, I'd like to see the numbers Sheamus dominated smackdowns have done in th UK (not saying they necessarily are good or bad, I'm just curious since it factors into the "is he a draw" conversation) For the record, It's Austin Aires, Joe Park, Booby Roode, Kevin Steen, Michel Elgin, and Tommasso Ciampa who's earning my viewership these days. ;) not even the awesomeness of Daniel Bryan can make me say YES! to 3 hours of shit raw
ReplyDeleteBeing champ DOES NOT equal being a draw, there is one world champ (or 2 cause wwe) there are at least a dozen guys who are the reason that someones but is in that seat
ReplyDeleteEddie Guerrero was a bigger draw than nash.
ReplyDeletenow u just trollin.
ReplyDeleteNash wasnt a draw from 1999 on. But I'm willing to say he was a draw in 1994 to 98. His big run in 1995 was a flop (not all his fault but it was still a bust). Then he had a big run in wcw but he was still #2 after Hollywood. Even still he moved a lot of nwo tshirts but the ratings shift was because hogan turned heel, wcw had a better roster top to bottom, and the show wad live. Not because of nash. But I'll give him the tshirts.
ReplyDeleteEddie was a major draw because of the whole Hispanic demographic but he was also a major overall star. He was basically in the spot daniel bryan is in now for seven years. He moved tons of merch and made smackdown #1 with the latinos.
And they still used eddie from beyond the grave to get angles over. If that's not being a draw I don't know what it!
ReplyDeletethree words:
ReplyDeleteNew. World. Order.
Im done.
Two words.
ReplyDeleteLatino. Heat.
2 more words.
ReplyDeleteStop trollin.
I actually think Guerrero vs nash as a draw is an interesting argument because of eddies popularity with a large portion of the audience. It's much closer imo than common perception
ReplyDeleteEddie drew in the hispanic population, while Nash drew the WHOLE wrestling population.
ReplyDeletethis isnt an argument. NWO changed business. Eddy cracked under pressure and headlined a couple of ppvs and was a nice ratings draw in hispanic markets... and a house show guy in hispanic markets.
but again. NWO.
im closing the case here jobz (thats my nickanme for u, Jobz)
Much respect to that response. That's all I wanted to say.
ReplyDelete