Hello Mr. Keith Again. Always love the feedback you give on certain topics, so I'd like to ask another among the topics that is hot on your site, Titles.
I think the majority of fans, at least on the internet, agree with you that the Titles are basically props these days are are beyond devalued. I hope they can be salvaged but I don't see that happening anytime soon, and honestly don't know how they would be able to anyway. I do however, see one point that really pushed them as being meaningless, and that is the trend of "Give him the title, see if it works and/or push him regardless", as opposed to "Push him, see how he & the crowd responds, then give him the title". I want to say this really kicked off with Orton's first Title win over Benoit, as I did not even consider him anything above IC Champ at the time. Whether that was the the start or it may have even happened many times before, but since that particular win, WWE really has me wondering why give Wrestler X the title already? I think fair examples are Orton, Sheamus, Del Rio, Dolph Ziggler, Jack Swagger & Great Khali. I may have seen some appeal to them at the time of their first title wins, and some crowd reaction, but never once did I think they should be considered a Main Event Champion, let alone headlining any PPV where they are defending the belt around the time they first got it.
Any thoughts? I know you have mentioned Orton's first win aswell, and I almost want the throw The Miz in there, but I kinda got it, too bad it didn't last the way it could have though.
Given they have no long term planning these days, that particular genie probably isn't going back into the bottle any time soon. I think that in a lot of ways now the issue is that they don't pull the trigger on guys QUICKLY enough, because people seemingly over stay over for a short window now and you need to get the belt on them while you can. Del Rio was the perfect example of that, because he was very over in 2010 and was naturally leading up to a win over Edge at Wrestlemania, and they delayed his ascension to the main event to Summerslam and killed his potential to be a money drawing heel in the process. Plus the titles are worthless anyway, so building these guys up for a chase isn't going to lead to a payoff that's worthwhile anyway.
I'd argue that Del Rio was never going anywhere because he's so darn boring.
ReplyDeleteThe character has certainly regressed, but he was pretty hot coming off his feud with Rey. He looked like a killer, there.
ReplyDeleteI find it mind boggling that CM Punk has had the title almost 300 days and yet, they still found a way to devalue the belt. Kudos WWE! That takes amazing talent.
ReplyDeleteFirst real instance I can think of is Angle's first reign, where he won the title, and then feuded with guys like Crash Holly over the belt. Jericho received similar treatment a year later. Even Benoit, despite being put over in such spectacular fashion, was given "La Resistance" as his first feud after winning the title.
ReplyDeleteI just don't get it. They treat pretty much ALL of their champions as jokes, often keeping them off TV for months on end and/or jobbing them constantly. It just doesn't make any sense at all.
I know what you mean. Eddy Guerrero feuded with the Bashams following his hot feud with Angle at WM. What I don't understand is that if they don't have a plan for a new champion following his first big win, what's the point of putting the title on them?
ReplyDeleteOk, that's a bit of revisionist history.
ReplyDeleteKurt Angle was most definitely treated like a main eventer after winning the WWF world title and was in programs with HHH, Undertaker, Austin, & Rock leading to that 6 man HITC.
Benoit after winning the title continued his feuds with HHH & Michaels before doing a quick program with Kane, then moving back to HHH (blech). He and Edge happened to win the tag titles around this time and were wrestling La Resistance on TV and maybe 1 ppv match, but that was not his primary focus as a character.
I watched that Cena promo from Raw. MY GAWD what a burial. It was full of so much twisted logic and half truths, but mostly made CM Punk look like a wannabe piece of shit. Also in a way, Cena shat on anyone Punk wrestled on PPV since being champ, considering Cena claims the belt has been irrelevant since Punk won it (so TAKE THAT
ReplyDeleteVince is a big time Republican and has gone out of his way to make fun of some liberals before (notably Rosie O'Donnell) so it may very well have been a shot.
ReplyDeleteI agree with this overall, that they were given some decent feuds after winning the titles. There are two problems, even evident back then, that I identify in the way these wrestlers are booked.
ReplyDelete1) Not enough focus while champion. The one month Benoit did not wrestle HBK or HHH he did not main event (luckily they gave him the SummerSlam main). In general, the show was focused on HHH, HBK (until he left), Eugene, heck, even Edge was given more attention. This trend has gotten even worse in recent years, where winning a title is not guarantee for screen time or the main event slot. Punk has suffered from this a bit.
2) The return to purgatory. This is tied to the first one. None of these champions are ever permanently elevated. Swagger, Miz, Punk, Christian, Jericho, Benoit, etc. have all gone on to win midcard titles after their world title reigns, which is a sign that their elevation was temporary. Would we seriously consider a guy like Cena or Orton being shunted down the card like that so easily? Probably not. I personally don't think it's because those guys are just better than the rest; they are treated as stars and protected from extensive interaction with midcarders. when they DO interact with them, they always win. The others never got to main event much as champion, and were not retained at the top of the card after losing the belt, thus re-establishing them as midcarders.
It is sad that the WWE seems so incapable of proper elevation of talent.
They need to do some kind of angle where certain peoples' world title reigns are wiped from the history books. I'm sure it can get figured out
ReplyDelete1) Agree completely, and it's a problem that is getting worse and worse
ReplyDelete2) This is also a problem, though I hope you don't include Kurt Angle as someone who returned to purgatory because he was most definitely a main eventer forever more after his first title win. I would also say that Jericho was most definitely a 100% main eventer after the 2008 feud with Michaels. But yeah, everyone gets neutered, and I'll never understand why.
JBL is another example. I think he eventually settled into his role and became a 'credible main event heel', but that should have happened before he won the title, not after.
ReplyDeleteYeah, he is a republican and wouldn't be beyond taking shots at a democratic president. Not really relevant though as republicans probably take way more shots in the entertainment industry.
ReplyDeleteI am mixed on Angle. He spent the majority of 2001 in midcard feuds with Benoit and Shane before getting re-elevated during the invasion story. Then he spent the majority of 2002 in the midcard until winning the title in December. Both were probably more like Bret's 1995, where he was stuck in the midcard, but seemed better than it. Jericho is also tough to say, as he did go on to more IC title and Tag Title reigns, but he always got a fair bit of focus after the 2008 feud. Neither got hit nearly as badly as some of the other guys.
ReplyDeleteWiping out the actual World Heavyweight Championship would do it. Just have a unification match with the WWE title, and then the 'WWE championship' is the lineage that survives into the future. The WHC reigns are only mentioned when you're talking about someone (HHH, Cena, Orton, etc.) being an "X-time world champion" or something.
ReplyDeleteSounds like the beginning of a good thesis paper, Sasuke. I especially like the purgatory observation.
ReplyDeleteAt the same time, I think the problem can be solved pretty easily even if they continue fluke and flakey title reigns. Stop with the stupid meaningless rematches after they lose the belt (which gives them consecutive losses), have them win a big match the next month, and then challenge for the title they lost another month down the line. Just like any UFC fella that lost his belt, right? Suddenly, you have a guy who has worked his way up to the main event TWICE. Maybe we stop thinking of the guy as a fluke or a joke.
At the very least, we start thinking of them as upper mid-card and part-time main eventers. Like Jericho, Bulldog, Foley. And once in a while, like Jericho in 08, that part-time main eventer becomes a full-timer for an extended period of time.
And look at the results of some of those guys. Foley became the guy who could elevate any singles guy from 1999-2006. Jericho, by virtue of his status, elevated the tag division with JeriShow (didn't they main event tlc 09?). And even someone like the Bulldog gave a crapload of credibility to a belt that could've been laughed at when first revealed (European Championship? Really? Defended in America?).
everything wrong with the WWE's attempts to elevate talent in one promo!
ReplyDeleteKilling off the WHT and all the champions after WCW closed its doors in 2001 would be awesome. HHH won that thing like 6 or 7 times, he'd have a coronary if he went back to single digit-times champion.
ReplyDeleteDo it WWE!!
it was mentioned earlier in the thread but Punk holding a tittle for 300 days+ and the tittle getting devalued was the straw that broke the camel's back and put me off the WWE permanently. Right when this happens i tune into TNA and watch Aries/Roode/Hogan put the belt over as the most important thing that has ever existed, Aries even put over the mid-card tittle (X-Division) as tremendously important. even if the Aces and eights storyline has an awful reveal (Jarret,Jeff or Bichoff, Eric spring to mind) I will care more about what's going on in their company because there is something every wrestler has to strive for, The world tittle--think about that, the TNA world tittle holds more prestige than the WWE's. That is insanity
ReplyDeleteIn Eddie's case, they were planning on keeping the Angle feud going and then bringing Lesnar back in the fold, but then Angle was injured (again) and Lesnar decided to play football.
ReplyDeleteI'd say the belt was devalued right around the time it started spinning.
ReplyDeleteOf course it was terrible. I tried saying that right after it happened but people went ahead praising it like Cena cut the Austin 3:16 promo. Even my one friend in real life who likes wrestling thought it was good.
ReplyDeleteUgh. It was Russo-riffic.
I thought so too, I actually thought Cena was going to make a direct link between Punk & Obama both being from Chicago. I think Cena's come out as being a Republican before, and regardless supporting the Republican party is pretty much the WWE company line.
ReplyDeleteHonestly I could see Cena, in one of his self-righteous promos like the one we're talking about, just blurting "...and marriage is only marriage if it's between a man and a woman!" to the cheers of a crowd of inbreeds.
ReplyDeleteEven as a guy who watches roughly 4 hours of TNA per year and never cared about another organization other than WWE after Hogan beat Savage the Nitro after Spring Stampede 1998 and (believe it or not) after Al Snow left ECW... even considering all of that and how big of a WWE homer I am...
ReplyDelete...you're right.
At least Cena actually looked like he wanted to kick Punk's ass, I appreciate it when that happens.
ReplyDeleteBut otherwise, no matter how old you are, if you've been watching Raw since last summer you'd hear what Cena is saying and say to yourself, "hey, that's not really how it went down."
And to top it off CM Punk is really, really correct in this. I mean he has been shoved aside in favor of Cena vs Big Johnny of all things, and there's no actual way for him to defend himself while keeping the story. His Summer of Punk promos didn't actually tear back the curtain, just allowed a quick peep.
But in this situation all he could possibly say is, "well despite the fact that I'm a better character than you, and a better wrestler than you, the folks that write this show have decided to keep you as the primary focus to the detriment of me and the championship that we're all supposed to be competing for." So now we've got yet another guy on the roster who DESERVES RESPECCCCT
I say a big NOOOOOOOOO to that only b/c it simultaneously kills Edge's title count. And I am an Edgehead
ReplyDeleteum, how is it not relevant? Someone asked if it was a shot at Obama, I suggested it was. Just because you believe that Republicans take more abuse in other shows/movies/whatnot doesn't make Vince's political views and cheap shots irrelevant.
ReplyDeleteJust not following the logic there.
Exactly. There was no way for CM Punk to respond other than saying "hey, we both know this is fake and the company gives you main events because you sell t-shirts." That's the only logical comeback.
ReplyDeleteI dunno, I feel like Punk could provide a great defence without exposing the business. He couldn't simply say: "Whoa,John, are you implying I control who is in the main event? I am not the GM. I am not Vince Mcmahon. I just happen to be the best wrestler in the company. And while you were beating Big Johnny, Michael Cole and the Big Show, I was beating relevant wrestlers who aren't in their 40s - or older."
ReplyDeleteSadly, Punk can't defend himself because he is the "heel" and somehow attacking the Rock and winning triple threat matches makes him "evil". So, he acts like he is dumbfounded, and flops around for Bret Hart punches so that he looks wrong. It is sad; once upon a time, heels were bad guys who did bad things. Now, a heel is someone who thinks that being world champion is important...Sigh....Siiiiighhhhh....
I suppose you are right (and nice job with the promo, really had Punk's voice). Unfortunately that won't happen, and IF it did, it would lead to Cena following up by somehow finding a way to say Jericho & Bryan are joke challengers.
ReplyDeleteYeah, I agree. I would like for him to say the above, but there's no way they're going to let that happen.
ReplyDeleteThanks for the positive feedback. I agree it will never happen, and it makes me sad (since it kind of did happen last year). It is just mind-boggling that one year ago it seemed like Punk was about to break through and bring wrestling with him. One year later his 300 day reign is being made fun of and he is being set up as random-bad-guy-for-Cena-to-beat-up. I have a horrible feeling this might jettison him back to midcard land...
ReplyDeleteRight. Cena is like the anti-Rock. I know Rock has caught grief for burying people, but I always felt like being buried by The Rock was a good thing. Maybe I'm wrong, but I can't think of any situation where someone had their momentum killed because Rock made fun of them.
ReplyDeleteCena shouldn't bring up marriage anytime soon.
ReplyDeleteI love to kiss 'em.
ReplyDeleteI love to squeeze 'em.
I love to kick 'em.
Oh, and Chuck Palumbo.
A big THANK YOU to The Rock for halting the Billy Gunn push.
ReplyDeleteStrudel is Shawn Stasiac aka Meat. Not fair to say Rock buried him, he was in the middle of a character overhaul where he was a klutz who would try to attack people and end up running head first into something.
Whether or not Rock was detrimental to the guys he verbally smacked down aside, at least his stuff was entertaining. Cena is not. He isn't funny. He cannot turn a phrase. Just a pandering, self righteous, d-bag
ReplyDeletealthough I must admit I wouldn't be able to stop laughing.
ReplyDeleteI am almost torn on whether I want the crowd to still cheer for Punk like crazy or not.
ReplyDeleteon one hand, it would be great to witness all the WWE bs not working at all and half the crowd still siding with the "evil" guy.
on the other hand I can imagine not getting the heel character over might damage Punks career (I can easily imagine some WWE goons sitting in some office complaining about Punk not getting the "right" reaction).
And a big NO THANKS from me for calling Bryan an Oompa Loompa...
ReplyDeleteSeriously, who thought dismissing one of the companies best heels as a joke was a good idea?
Yeah the Oompa Loompa thing was stupid and unfunny
ReplyDeleteThe one thing I'm wonder is where does Punk(and to a lesser extent Cena) go from here. Are we destined for Punk/Cena for the next 4 months until Rock comes back.
ReplyDeleteIf so, boy am I glad NFL is back.