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Hi Scott, here's a question I don't think anyone has asked before: let's pretend that Montreal was the final nail in the coffin for the WWF and the company went out of business and WCW brought the video libray and acquired a lot of the WWF top stars, do you think the fate of WCW would have been the same where they would have screwed that up, and if they continued to lose money, do you think Turner would have pulled the plug on the company despite it being the only international wrestling company around? And if WCW was no more, would have the return of the territories come back or would there have been a huge investor to create a new international wrestling promotion in the same vein as TNA.

That's an awfully big pretending, since VInce was miraculously able to shell out millions of dollars for Mike Tyson months before the business turned around, despite being so destitute that he couldn't pay Bret Hart his contracted money.  

But regardless, I think that WCW would have screwed it up regardless and still gone out of business at the same time, because they were just doing SO much wrong.  Plus, as noted many times, the eventual death of WCW was caused by the TV division cancelling them, not any direct effect of the business itself.  I think probably we'd still have TNA, and guys like Cena and Batista would have migrated to MMA instead.  So basically TNA would have Mondays to itself doing the same rating as now, and probably Vince would try again with another startup at some point.  

Comments

  1. Vince would have killed himself if he went out of business.

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  2. Not buying it. Just like with today's WWE, there will always be folks that HAVE to have their wrestling fix, no matter how bad the product. With that kind of star power, I simply don't see it possible to go out of business, especially that quick. The whole revisionist history that blames Kellner for killing WCW rather than booking, backstage garbage, wasting money, etc. is silly. Kellner canceled it because the ratings didn't justify carrying it. Yeah he considered it lowbrow, but if that lowbrow was getting a 5.0 instead of a 2.0 he wouldn't have been so worried. People say, "Well 2.0 was still a good rating for cable." True, but lots of other factors. First, WCW was having to give away tons of ad time on Nitro as make goods for promising much higher ratings. Second, due to WWF, there was a backlash towards wrestling because of vulgarity (on top of the standard stereotypes). WCW was limited in their options for advertisers and got a low rate for the ratings they provided, despite having solid demographic appeal as well. Combined with costs and it was just a bad situation. With no WWF, does WCW have issues with the PTC or 20/20 or other groups/media bashing wrestling for vulgarity? And even if by some stretch of the imagination Kellner was willing to cancel a 5.0 program, other networks would have been willing to give them a timeslot.



    Now how long until someone asks if ECW still rises up and if Heyman grabs some business folks from WWF and manages to run it a little smarter?

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  3. I agree with most of this but the Keller part. Cancelling WCW due to 2.0 ratings isn't a strong business decision when you look at the circumstances surrounding WCW at the time. They were about to be bought out by a strong company with solid financial backing. There were plans in place to cut some of the higher price contracts, similar to what WWF did when they acquired it, by just not bringing those heavy hits along with it. I'm not saying WCW was in great positioning, but the cancellation directly led to the collapse of that deal, which led to Vince buying it and just dropping the company and keeping the library and initials. Had Keller gave the new deal six months even to see if the ratings could have improved with the new product, which towards the end with the focus on younger, more athletic guys, and less on the older guys who were being phased out was improving product-wise, WCW could have rebuilt their name enough to have landed another TV deal fairly easy.

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  4. Ok, but what happens in between Montreal and the death of the WWF? I remember reading about some guys no-showing the next night on Raw in protest, but it would take an Austin or Rock or Undertaker walkout to really make that kind of statement that says the WWF is done.

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  5. The only people that actually did walkout were Foley, Bulldog, Crush, and Rude. Foley was the only one to actually come back, and hilariously enough, received a huge check for the episode of Raw he didn't appear on.

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  6. There's one thing I never understood about the Montreal situation. Vince signs Bret to a 20 million dollar contract that would stretch over many years, into Bret's retirement with him taking a backstage role afterwards right? Then Vince tells Bret he can't pay him and honor the contract. Why didn't Bret demand to be paid what was due to him in the contract and stay with the WWF? And when Vince doesn't pay him and breaks the contract why didn't Bret sue the shit out of Vince? It would have been an easy win for Bret as Vince was breaking a legal contract both men signed. I just never understood that part, if Vince was openly telling Bret he was going to break the contract why not just sue him and the WWF?

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  7. I still think the whole thing was a load of BS, meaning Montreal. To many things that make it look fake, I think the WWF and Bret played the fans. Why didn't Bret sue? How did Vince have enough cash for Tyson but not Hart? Why did all this happen the same time cameras were following Bret for that Shadows movie? It all seems way to convenient. I personally think it was all a plan by WWF and Bret, let Bret leave for a year or two to WCW, have Shawn dominate and then Bret makes a surprise return, say RR 2000, and kicks Shawn's ass at WM2000. Then all the stuff went wrong, Owen's death, the kick from Goldberg and the plans fell apart. Just my thoughts, but everything just seemed so fake.

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  8. Well, the only problem with that was Bret signed a new deal with WCW in 1999, right before Owen had died.

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  9. I believe that the 20-year contract had a clause where either side could opt out after a year, and Vince used it.

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  10. Hadn't Rude already jumped ship at that point?

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  11. Could be just as simple as Bret didn't want to stay somewhere where he wasn't wanted and agreed with Vince to just end the contract and move on. Plus, Bret already knew he had the big offer from WCW lined up, so he wasn't hurting for that remaining $19 million.

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  12. Wrestling with Shadows was not produced by the WWE. What would Bret sue for? For losing a fake title in a fake wrestling match?

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  13. I believe there was a clause in his contract that Bret had creative control for the last 30 days (to protect himself from being buried) or something to that effect.

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  14. I've always had the impression that Vince was betting the house on Tyson and WM 14 being a huge success. If it didn't pay off, he was done. Similar to the risk he took when he launched WM 1.

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  15. I know. I don't see how that would play into Bret suing WWE.

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  16. I know he definitely jumped ship as a result of Montreal. But they already had episodes with him filmed for after that, hence that one Monday where he appeared on Nitro clean shaven, then appears later on Raw with a full beard.

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  17. screwjob was on november 9; rude appeared on both shows on november 17

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  18. I watched a Legends of Wrestling a few weeks ago about the history of Raw. That was brought up and Jim Ross buried the shit out of Rude for it. Which I don't get. I can't fault a guy for leaving a company that just fucked over his friend.

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  19. Because Vince took over creative control for the Bret character on the last date/event? A little complicated and tad flimsy for a court case. Still, he opted to take a free shot at Vince instead. That was probably a lot more gratifying for him anyway.

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  20. I haven't watched the episode of Nitro where he first appeared, but didn't he bury the shit out of the WWF?

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  21. I love to see the reaction on the judge's face when Bret tells him that WWE damaged his brand so much that he just signed a 3 million dollar deal.

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  22. I'm watching the buildup to Wrestlemania XIV right now, and you know Vince had to be doing backflips when he started seeing all the media coverage that Tyson being at Wrestlemania was getting.


    Gee, you'd think Vince would learn that something like that could still work today if he's still so starved for outside media attention. If he were ballsy enough, he should try to get Jay-Z to do something.

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  23. I think so. Still completely justified. Ross didn't even mention that. Just buried the act of walking out.

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  24. Problem with WWE doing bad business in 1997 were the buyrates; highest rated buyrate that year was survivor series; 2nd was summerslam. Thus obviously the buyrates were going up even before anyone knew about the screwjob and people were buying into the D-X and Austin characters.

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  25. Oh, OK. I thought he jumped right after Badd Blood.

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  26. I don't follow hip hop at all. But if there is a beef out there between two big rappers(like Biggie and Tupac), Vince should put them in the corners of Rock and Cena.

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  27. Seems odd for Ross to be talking ill of the dead like that, considering he didn't bury Crush or Bulldog for doing the same.


    Then again, both of them eventually came back, Rude never did.

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  28. No kidding. I think Bret was the highest paid guy in wrestling at that point outside of Hogan, who had a separate non-WCW Turner contract. If I remember right, Hall and Nash even waived a clause in their contracts saying that they had to be paid more than anyone that WCW signed.

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  29. Yes and people tend to take Vince at word which is a big mistake considering a)Vince is a wrestling promoter and b) his a multimillionaire CEO. Neither of which has a big history of telling the truth. OR just VInce fucking lies all the damn time which ever suits you fancy. . . .

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  30. Speaking of Montreal. I had an idea while I was watching old Raws. What if Vince sent Owen to ECW after the screwjob? Owen can cool his jets and help ECW out a bit and get some indy cred. Work with Douglas, Taz, etc maybe even win their World title. Cut anti-WWE promos(ECW fans would love it) and keep talking about how WWE is blocking him from going to WCW. He doesn't have to deal with the Clique and with HBK's injury, he misses out on dealing with him entirely when he comes back.


    The night after King of the Ring 98, Vince has Austin arrested to prevent him from ruining Kane's celebration. Everything is going smoothly until Owen Hart runs through the crowd and attacks Vince. Owen/Austin/Kane/Taker all battle over the new few months until the title is vacant. And Owen takes the Rock's role as Corporate champion when he sides with Vince after he screws Austin in the finals.


    Owen Hart aligned with Vince as corporate champion would have made him the biggest heel in the business. Miss out on The Rock's rise though in this scenario. But that was happening no matter what.

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  31. The favored nations clause that Hall and Nash had never fails to crack me up.

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  32. if WCW was such a strong brand, why didn't another network want them after TBS canceled them? You really think AOL/TW execs knew wrestling? You really think that a new company saying, "We are going to get rid of Hogan, Flair, Sting, and the other priced guys and focus on Mike Sanders, Chuck Palumbo, Sean Stasiak, etc." was going to work? To the non-wrestling fan wearing a suit in the CNN Center, Hogan and those guys WERE wrestling. It's why WCW was doomed. They needed to cut cost, but no network would touch them without the old guys. It was as catch-22. We will just have to agree to disagree on how it was a bad decision. Again, WCW was GIVING

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  33. Agreed. I've heard Bret complain about it, but it's a different investment. Bret's steady but he's not the guy who's going to save the company or take it to the heights it eventually went. The upside for Tyson is a lot higher than Bret.

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  34. The WWF product had been more exciting for a while, but people were used to watching WCW. Tyson brought a lot of eyes to the WWF product, eyes that kept watching because they liked what they were seeing. The problem doing it now is that it's not that exciting of a product and most people watching to see the celebrity won't continue to watch.

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  35. Chris Brown and Drake? Chris Brown and whoever else Rihanna is having sex with these days? Chris Brown and almost anyone, really. Just invite him to Raw, I'm sure he'll piss someone off while he's there.

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  36. Which is the main problem with them using The Rock now. They want the Rock to bring back the old fans but when they tune in, they don't like what they see.

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  37. I would pay money to see Punk give Brown a super stiff GTS.

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  38. But how did Wrestling with Shadows get to use WWE pay per view footage? I'm sure there was something written given them permission to use the footage they filmed on their own but how did they get to use stuff from WWE's own video library?

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  39. I'm sure it was part of the agreement they made with WWE.

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  40. Will Drake bring the Degrassi crew with him?

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  41. Jim Ross is the biggest WWE cheerleader ever, so it's not really that surprising.

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  42. That is true. But when they were talking about Luger's jump, Ross didn't go out of his way to bury him about. It seemed odd to me.

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  43. I remember the rumors about Rude training for a comeback before he died. I think there was talking about him coming back to the WWE to work against Austin.

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  44. But that would turn Punk face, we can't have a face Punk.

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  45. I think you missed the point I was making. They weren't a strong brand at that time, that wasn't my argument. But let's look at that "wouldn't have worked without those guys" bit. Take TNA. They built up there brand and got an opportunity at a tv show off the strong work of the x-division, and coming through at the time they got on Fox Sports, a very good program in the heavyweights between Jarret and Raven, only one of which a suit may have known other than owning the company in Jarrett.



    While it's true the Spike deal hinged on Sting signing a deal, think of the Main Event Mafiantime, which included alot of those high priced guys WCW was phasing out and the damage that period did to TNA with the goodwill it had built up with the fans. Those guys left or were cut down dramatically and the work of guys like Styles, Daniels, Joe, Aries and others was allowed back to the forefront, and fans are beginning to embrace the brand again, and it's being seen as a serious company again.



    What's to say that couldn't have happened to WCW under those nobodies you mentioned? Keller cut ties on a brand that was beginning to do the things it needed to to change opinions that WCW catered to and only protected those few big names. A deal was all but signed giving Fusient those slots, and instead of maybe moving Nitro to a different day when Raw wouldn't make it look like a joke as competition, or negotiating some other way to give that alloted weekly television time that was in the deal, he just cut the cord. And AOL/Time Warner had to take less money and the losses they could have recouped some went into the pot that cooked up the biggest financial merger disaster in modern business history.

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  46. Seems solid enough but you're glossing over the fact that Austin still had reservations about working with Owen after the Summerslam '97 injury almost ended his career. I don't think Austin wanted anything to do with Owen less than a year later.

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  47. That point was proven with Raw 1000 in my mind. They gave alot of winks to us older fans with things like Sean Mooney, Mae's hand "son", and one of the greatest lead-in videos I've ever seen them do at the start, but most of the new stuff they were presenting didn't really hook anyone, outside Punk-Rock. We had AJ becoming yet another in a long line of GM's, a longstanding complaint of fans. You had a backstage shot that was never explained or mentioned again, something long infuriating. And you had several cameos, that while they were fun to see, we know there weren't leading to anything(DX being the biggest standout). I mean, YAY DX was back with all 5 guys, but that group was never whole to begin with, with DX as a group not taking off into the stratosphere until after Micheals was buried and kicked out and the others came aboard. Was putting a new talent out there for slaughter a good idea for the future? He was beat up, and we all knew they would be no payback or program from that.

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  48. I thought it was 20 years, 10 million.

    I think there were fishy aspects but the way Bret Hart loves to take responsibility for other people's success he hasn't come out and said he made the Vince McMahon character.


    Also Mick Foley walked out for a few days, the Self Destruction of Bret Hart DVD, and if Bret/Vince were in cahoots all along why was there no Owen Hart/HBK match. It made sense for the Royal Rumble given the pop Owen got at the december PPV..

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  49. That was a project started before this mess even started. You really think if at the beginning, Vince had known the endgame, they would have had that kind of access? And if Vince was "working" us and the film was part of it, why not just have them "accidentley" film the punch? I think Vince is scummy in a lot of ways, but I just can't pin this one on his genious mind.

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  50. I'll play devils advocate for Ross for a moment. If you had a pretty serious lifelong physical ailment, and it affected your facial appearence and to a degree your speaking ability,(listen to early Raws before the big Bell's Palsy attack, and listen to those he did upon returning), and your primary job experience was being in front of a camera and speaking two or more hours a night, would you really speak out repeatedly or not tow the line of the company providing you the main money that keeps your doctor paid for and your medication coming. I don't have Bell's Palsy , but I can't imagine lifelong treatment is that cheap. Maybe one day his BBQ sauce company(which is pretty damn good especially the spicy ones) takes off to the point he has nationwide or even international distribution and store placement, he will walk away or maybe not pander so much, but I don't fault him for being a company guy.

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  51. I know. But maybe they could have hatched out things for the greater good.

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  52. Maybe it's because Luger's alive and may have some use left in him for Vince(such as DVD insight, as with the nWo set) and Rude passed before any kind of bridge could be mended or any money could be milked from him? With the "7 year turnover" in wrestling audiences, and the skewing towards a younger base, Rude doesn't have as much value post-mortem. I know I would buy a Rude set, and several others on here would, but would there be a big enough crowd to buy a set of a guy who's prime years were in the 80's and VERY early 90's who was never THE guy that Savage or Hogan or even Warrior were? Not saying agree whatsoever in the way these things shake out, but it seems as though if Vince can't bleed the turnip anymore, the turnip hits the garbage bin.

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  53. "Self Destruction Of Bret Hart DVD"?

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  54. WWE apparently started making a DVD to bury Bret Hart since the Warrior one did well. To offset this and preserve his legacy, Bret did the DVD. It was only years later he came back to WWE to hug it out with Shawn..



    Of course to deflect and manipulate the situation WWE showed clips of Hogan/Bischoff etc talking bad about Bret from that DVD which is why he's so anti Hogan/Bischoff nowadays..

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  55. i'm not missing the point, you are. Hogan and the rest were sunk costs. Their contracts had to be paid out, regardless of whether they were on TV or not. You completely underestimate how clueless execs are when it comes to wrestling. These guys have no concept of hot characters, rebuilding the roster, etc. NONE. Look at the current issues with WWE. These execs (and shareholders these days) understand concepts like branding, expanding revenue streams, etc. To tell them that WCW wa better off without all the guys that they have ever heard of would have been non-starter. Also, even with the Fusient deal almost complete, Bischoff was told that he could NOT take Nitro off the air for any period of time to retool.



    As for TNA, they had money marks. Big money marks. And a different model with the weekly ppv concept. To be finanically successful on the kind of money that Foxsports regional networks paid, WCW would have to cut not just the top guys like HOgan and Nash, but even mid level guys like Booker T, Steiner, DDP, and possibly almost anyone with a guaranteed deal. FoxSports paid TNA almost nothing. WCW still would have had to find money to advertise ppvs and house shows because the ratings and audience for a show on FoxSports is almost nothing. And the timeslot, much like TNA would have been awful. Either afternoons or late night, because the evenings are filled with baseball, basketball, and hockey.



    Bottom line is that WCW was losing a ton of money and with the problems with make good commercial time, the negative perception by advertisers of wrestling, and the cost of big names, it simply made no sense for them to continue to put the program on. it wasn't worth the hassle. Spike leaves TNA on, despite the fact that I can't figure out how they make money off of it, because there are other options are limited. TNT had plenty of options. Spike isn't worried about wrestling not fitting in with their "brand." TNT wanted to be the place for high class drama. Given those facts, combined with sinking ratings and negative media attention, I would argue that canceling WCW was in fact a no-brainer. And I would argue that any WCW show on another network or even on TNT/TBS was a non-starter if your headliners are Mike Sanders, Jason Jett, Evan Karagious, etc. I love wrestling as much as anybody and I think WCW dying was terrible for the business, but reality is reality. Kellner made a smart business decision that looks even smarter today when you look at how well TNT became a critical darling for drama and TBS stayed solid in the ratings before finding itself as a comedy network.



    As for the disastrous corporate merger, that had little to do with the TV side of things and much to do with AOL simply being outdated as an ISP. In fact the TV side of things was one of the few successful aspects of the merged company before AOL spun back off again.

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  56. I don't know if a rapper would fit, but what about Lennox Lewis? Just tease a match between Lewis and CM Punk or John Cena and then let him be a special enforcer. Or Vitali/Wladimir Klitschko? Or David Haye?

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  57. Oh yeah, I certainly don't fault him for it. Despite the Bell's Palsy, I'd expect it anyways -- the lead announcers are in Vince's inner circle and were always expected to perform a similar role.

    I'm just saying, it's not surprising that he'd bury anybody that did something to 'offend' the WWE. He's always been the guy to put forth the "WWE is the only wrestling company to ever do anything right or have any good ideas, and if anybody else ever had any good ideas they stole them from us / operated in a bingo hall / are 'wrasslin' and not world-class entertainment like we are" stuff.

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  58. and the combined "bret and vince production" left a TON out. Bret wanted his legacy preserved and he traded some truth for that. Almost no mention of the kliq, particularly how they buried him after he dropped the belt to Backlund. And they talked around Montreal rather than dealing with it directly. If someone wasn't familiar with the details, they probably wouldn't have even understood that part completely.

    Bret isn't that good of an actor (nor is Vince). To carry on the bitterness he had for so many years, to write articles in the paper, to refuse to work with WWF for so long, it simply doesn't make sense. Bret was still bitter (much of it because of Owen and how that destroyed his family rather than just Montreal, but still...) long after there was any opportunity to pay off any supposed angle.

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  59. Jay-Z is not "the baddest man on the planet!" He's just some rapper that talks about how bad ass he is but really is just sipping champagne on his yacht and probably hasn't fought anyone in 20 years.

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  60. The only reason I mentioned Jay-Z was because of the New York/New Jersey area.

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  61. I don't think Vince and Dana could ever agree to have a guy like George St. Pierre or Anderson Silva appear at a Wrestlemania.


    But what about Tito Ortiz? He's not under any sort of contract right?

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  62. Nobody knows who David Haye is, including his parents. If we're going the boxing route, Mayweather in Rock's corner and Pacquiao in Cena's.

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  63. Caliber_Winfield_69420BoobiesNovember 24, 2012 at 3:37 PM

    They tried that one, sort of, with Cena at WM19. He was gonna battle either Jay-Z or Fabolous. That was the rumor, at least. I don't know if it made the DVD, because I haven't seen it since I saw it live, but Cena came out and battled two card board cut-outs.

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  64. wow I've been a fan for 30 odd years and I still learn new things. I had never heard of that, and I like Bret, but that might have been an interesting watch.

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  65. I think this is just a case of agreeing to disagree like you said. I do agree that TNT and TBS did do excellent with rebranding and surviving mostly unscathed from the disaster in the boardrooms. I guess the fan in me just wished WCW had that chance, but I do see your point on the difficulty of doing it with those guys in play. But I guess the smark in me would like to think over time, actual talent over just name recognition would have won in the end. But as you said, reality is reality, otherwise Khali would have been employed as an Official Light Bulb Changer, and not a WWE Superstar.

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  66. Yeah, I think the episode where "Handsome" Harvey filled in then was kicked and Shawn said that was an easy spot to fill was the same that Niedhart joined DX for about 45 mins before being beat down into WCW.

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  67. At least there was more honesty from he and Shawn in the Rivalry DVD as far as that particular time.

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  68. Well I wasn't saying Bret should sue Vince for what happened at Montreal in the match. I was asking when Vince told Bret he couldn't honor the contract they signed and couldn't pay him why didn't Bret stay in the WWF and sue Vince for not keeping to the contract? Vince told Bret openly he wouldn't be able to pay him, so at that point why doesn't Bret sue Vince for breach of contract? It's just something I have always wondered about the whole situation.

    That's not to say I think Montreal was fake either, after Owen died Bret blamed Vince and even talked about what happened in Montreal to show what a scumbag Vince can be. If you are blaming the man for your brothers death you don't keep going with a fake storyline. As for Wrestling with Shadows, they had started filming that like a year before Survivor Series 97. I doubt the screwjob was planned a year in advance and they started filming Shadows in anticipation for it. And c'mon, nobody has come forward to say it was fake in all this time? And I'm talking about people involved in it, backstage at the time, I know wrestlers have speculated it was fake. Earl Hebner got fired by the WWE and now works for TNA, if it was fake why doesn't he get some money to do a shoot interview to talk about it?

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  69. you never heard about "screwed: the bret hart hart story"?

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  70. jigga is a fag... he got a music promoter stabbed because the promoter was fucking one of his girls.


    Sucker for love.

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  71. It's been admitted under oath that Montreal was not a work. Sorry.

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  72. Nope not ringing any bell. To be fair during that time I was in culinary school, so from 97-99, I was playing catchup most the time, and without a huge emotional attachment to that time period, I didnt feel the need to dig deep in the IWC archives for news and tidbits that weren't front and center. That's why most of my comments about shows during that time contain "i believe" or a ? mark after a date or specific show.

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  73. bret didn't sue because he agreed to void the rest of that contract so he could sign with WCW for more money.

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  74. "Nope not ringing any bell"


    Ring the bell! Ring the fucking bell!

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  75. It doesn't help that The Rock is seen as so much better than the current crop. Even with Cena last year, the current generation of fans might have thought it was a dream match but the fans I know who came back to see The Rock saw Cena as some chump Rock was going to stomp.

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  76. He called the WWF the titantic.

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  77. I thought it was 20 years, $1.5 per year as a wrestler for three years, the rest a like $750,000? I doubt he would have retired in 2000, if that was the plan. Seemed to have a couple more years in him.

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  78. That was the plan. Retire in 2000 and work in a backstage role. And the salary went waaaaay further down than 750K. I think he would have retired. Bret doesn't seem like one of those guys who keep coming back.

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  79. The best part is that Hall signed his first, then immediately Nash signs for more than Hall, giving Hall a raise right off the bat.

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  80. I guess it was embarrassing for them to be showing Raw with Rick Rude while he makes his live Nitro debut burying them.

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  81. I read this on a youtube comment, so take it for what it's worth, but there might be a Scott Hall shoot interview where he mentions Rude disappearing from WCW or a couple of months and showing up backstage during his training having added 30lbs of muscle. Was it a steroid heart-attack that got him?

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  82. I wonder if Vince could have gotten back into the business. He wasn't a popular guy, would anyone hire him to run a new promotion? Could he even handle working for someone else?

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  83. Yeah, Jay-Z isn't really a badass, don't use anybody that people aren't frightened of. If Kimbo Slice hadn't y'know...sucked, he would have been a great choice.

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  84. Why would Austin do that? Why would Vince do that? Owen was never an elite mic worker, what upside does he have over Rock or even Foley. Owen was a career mid-carder, and any booking tricks used to make him a main-event player could've been used in a much more effective manner to get actual stars over.

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  85. Well, technically it was a work, various people just lied to Bret about the finish of the match.

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  86. I could take Owen as a main eventer depending on the feud. He had a personal issue with Shawn, Shawn was WWF Champion, I could buy Owen in a feud with him. But I'm not sure about him as a top guy period. Owen being a part of the Corporation could have been interesting though, given that he'd be selling out his brother to work for Vince. I was still pretty markish during his feud with Bret, and I didn't take Owen seriously at all. But my fear was that he would somehow sneak out the win, because he was sneaky like that.

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  87. He works for someone else right now...

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  88. I understand that him turning would be "shocking", but...yet again, why bother? Why build up a guy who does want to jump as a main-eventer (no matter how temporary) to work the smarks?


    That reeks of Russo.

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  89. Never knew that.

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  90. It was in 2005-ish. Shortly before the "Best There Is, Best There Was, Best There Ever Will Be" set came out.

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  91. Nash is the smartest man in wrestling.

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  92. And I think he deserves from credit for that. I know we're supposed to hate him because Diesel sucked and he's no Chris Benoit in the ring, but he's one of the smartest guys in the business. And it is a business. If he was of no value to the wrestling business it would have discarded him long before he discarded it. It's great that the internet feels for the guy who should have been pushed but wasn't, then was released and is either working his ass off on indies with a part time job to get by or out of the business all together - but Nash had the right idea. The funny thing is that if you listen to him talk, he gets it, he's just also gets the "it's about making money while you can" side of it.

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  93. It wasn't strictly a 20 year contract, it had an annual 30 day window in where if neither side was happy they could open it up. Vince wasn't happy and told Bret he could negotiate with WCW. Bret couldn't do that outside of the window.

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  94. I don't think TNA would exist. What seems more likely to me is that Bischoff and Fuscient would have bought WCW and either relaunched Nitro or relaunched the WWF on USA Network. I don't doubt there would have been another start-up with all the cast-offs, or that Vince would have started up again, but Bischoff would have already had the WCW and WWF licenses, and AKI could have made a next-gen No Mercy. :(

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  95. Actually, by then I was waning in my fandom, and I didn't even hear about the real Bret set till I saw the pre-order on Amazon.

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  96. They had the rights to use everything going on, so long as they followed a couple of rules: most notably, the documentary could not feature ANY Undertaker or Steve Austin footage of them out of character, as the WWF and the two wrestlers didn't want any behind the scenes out of character footage of them in the final cut of the documentary.....

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  97. Nothing like a Montreal thread to drum up an easy 100 comments!

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  98. Yeah, Rude's problem is that he was only a top guy in early-90s WCW, which is obviously an era that the WWF isn't going to point out as some elite time for the business. Even Jake Roberts getting a DVD is kinda pushing it, and he only really got one because of his personal demons & legendary story. Rude is really just an Upper-Midcarder in the history of the business.

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  99. Survivor Series wasn't Bret's last date with WWE. His contract went over well into the next month. That's what makes the "Bret was going on Nitro the next night to throw away the WWF belt" so absurd.

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  100. NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO I NEED MY XFL DAMMIT!

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  101. He Hate Me.





    Think of the buys.

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  102. Huh? Where'd you hear that story from? He stabbed a music promoter at a party for bootlegging his album, but I've never heard anything about what you said.

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  103. Agreed, the only chance Cena had of being seen on Rock's level was if it were 2003 Cena, but since Cena is content with being boring, that obviously wasn't happening.

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  104. "you gotta love it" Cam'ron

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  105. If WWF goes out of business in 1998, WCW probably goes out of business as well in a few years. Jamie Kellner was still going to take over the network and no network was going to want wrestling if WWF had failed recently and WCW was itself losing millions. In 2001, WCW would have needed a TV deal and substantial help from either AOL Time Warner or the network to stay alive even if the company was sold because they were losing tens of millions of dollars annually by that point (and that wouldn't have been any different if somebody other than Russo had been booking in 2000). Heyman may actually have been able to cut his costs, keep his stars and keep his TV deal, so ECW might have survived. ECW was basically put under by TNN dumping them for WWF, but that couldn't happen if there is no WWF.

    TNA would probably come out of the ashes of WCW in much the same manner, although it may also have come out of the ashes of WWF since Jarrett jumped to WWF right before Montreal. Whether TNA gets to the same place they're at depends upon whether USA or some other network is willing to take a chance on them eventually. If TNA is the only company or ECW is their main competition, they have the potential to grow much larger because the main thing that has hindered their growth has been their inability to compete with WWE's huge production budget and huge crowds. Without WWE and WCW, the perception of TNA as a "minor league" company filled with "rejects" from the bigger compan(y/ies) would not exist.

    MMA became popular when WWE was leaving Spike and they decided to give the struggling UFC some airtime. If TNN/Spike has a good relationship with ECW, they may not even give UFC a chance to do a reality show and UFC might continue at the level it was at pre-TUF or even go out of business.

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  106. All these desperate attempts to get the old fans back are doing more harm than good because they tune in they don't like what they see. Maybe they won't give them another chance next time when they try to get their attention again and actually have a good product.

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  107. I wonder how the Big Show felt about their contracts and these clauses. If only there were a DVD where he mentioned it a dozen times even when it had nothing to do with the conversation.

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