| Hi Scott, LONG time reader and Blog of Doomer here--having a solitude Saturday night (and not choosing UFC), so I decided to rewatch WrestleMania 14 with Stone Cold vs. Michaels. I had a question though for you--In your opinion, was Michaels in as bad as shape as everyone had us believe? I know from his book he states he injured himself at the Rumble and then pilled himself up for the match, but there are so many things that contradict that. 1) He's roided to the max and in great shape. If he was having back issues (which I have had with surgery btw), there is no way he should be looking that fit or touching a barbelle. 2) He starts the match absolutely limber and taking great bumps--no sign of a "back of doom." It's only after a conspicuous railing shot outside that he begins to properly sell how his bad back--(it was amazing selling anyway; in 1998, I believed the awful pain on his face) 3) He made it very well known at the time that he was not happy being pushed aside for Mr. Austin (yes, he states otherwise now). Anyway, do you think he just sold his injured back as "career ending" just to let the cards fall and let Austin hang himself (and then come to the rescue if he failed?). He wasn't a saint at the time, so I don't put it past him. I look forward to your thoughts, as always. Shawn was of course full of shit on a lot of stuff, but that back injury was pretty much as close to a real life miracle as you're going to get. By all accounts, Shawn was in constant pain from his retirement all the way until about 2001, including his one "comeback" match in his TWA promotion where he worked a smoke and mirrors match against Paul Diamond and didn't take any bumps. This would be one of the few times where I 100% believe Shawn was telling the truth, or was at least the most convincing liar in history. |
I believe Shawn could have come back and wrestled by late 1999/2000 if he really wanted it/forced it like Steve Austin did in 1997/1998 with his neck injury. Of course Austin fell apart by late 1999 and his recovery after that while magnificent really could only sustain him for another 2 1/2 years before he had to shut it down for good. That's not even taking into consideration how messed up on drugs HBK was at this point either so letting him take 4 years off from the ring almost certainly saved his life.
ReplyDeleteEither Shawn worked a great match in crippling pain, or he's an amazing seller. Really it's a win win for him.
ReplyDeleteGotta agree with Scott for the most part here. However, I do think Shawn was hamming it up just a bit in the Austin match b/c he wanted everyone to know (smark and mark) that he was in some serious friggin' pain.
ReplyDeleteWatching it was like a nightmare coming true before our eyes. He started out fine, took one awkward bump (I forget what it was) and then a minute later he takes the Irish whip flip up the corner and botches it in the worst way possible--slamming and jamming the screwed up part of his back directly into the top turnbuckle. He just didn't flip high enough. He was f'd thereafter.
One more note, though: we might not know how much pain Shawn was in after the surgery from 2000-2002 because he was pretty addicted to pills. The mind has a way of telling an addict they're in pain when they're not. I don't mean to belittle a devastating injury and recovery, but it's just something else to consider. In any case, most of us are glad he fought through his physical and mental problems and became an MVP candidate for the promotion in 2003, 2005, 2007, and 2008. Just a brilliant performer. Tied with Bret atop my favorite wrestler list.
I think "great" is a giant stretch for that match.
ReplyDeleteI believe HBK. There was a lot of dough to be made and if he was good to go he would've been out there.
ReplyDeleteWhat's interesting is how short his peak was. He reigned for six months in '96, had the legendary run in 97-98...and that was it. He was good enough to be the face of the company from 2002-2005, but they never went that route.
I never liked that match. If Shawn were selling a bad back to the crowd, it would have been better.
ReplyDeleteI really don't think he was just selling/faking the back pain in that match. You can see it on his face and how he moves.
ReplyDeleteEven with a back injury and no time at the gym, he wouldn't lose muscle mass in 3-4 months.
Lastly, if he was ever faking it (for whatever reason), then he picked the worst possible time to not be on the active roster and miss out on Attitude-era money.
His back really was fucked. It's just a shame he wasn't around for the era he helped start.
Shawn never wanted to be the face of the company during his return though as it was often rumored that Vince was more than willing to give him a major title run but he'd consistently turn it down.
ReplyDeleteHe seemed quite content in his part-time gig during his second run even if he was in a midcard feud. Crowds consistently took him seriously so WWE could always rely on him to plug holes in main event booking should there be an injury or a need to have someone get a random title match on an off-brand PPV. HBK was your guy to sell that show.
"he picked the worst possible time to not be on the active roster and miss out on Attitude-era money."
ReplyDeleteThat has the clearest tip-off, right? It makes no sense for Shawn to fake/oversell a back injury and miss out on the hottest ever period for the business. When he -did- come back, it was on one of the last shows that Rock worked and shortly after Austin quit the company. It makes no sense for him to just sit out until business had definitively cooled off, especially since he was around enough as a non-wrestling figure during that period. If he could have done it physically, he would have.
Maybe great is stretching it. I got caught up in the moment. I'd call it just below great. Maybe ***1/4-***1/2
ReplyDeleteYeah, I wanted to make an ETA to spell out that I didn't think it was HBK being held down, rather a decision he probably made on his own. Suffice to say that I may not have stopped watching after 2003 if Shawn had been dominating the title scene instead of Triple H. Shawn could make any feud must-see viewing. I'll go so far as to say a Shawn-Steiner feud would have been awesome.
ReplyDeleteANTI-CENA/ANTI-WWE UNIVERSE POST UPCOMING: To hit on my previous point on how Shawn's run as being "The Man" was relatively brief (about 18 months), Austin's was about 2.5 years and The Rock sporadically for about three years. Those are three of the most iconic names ever and they were veritable main eventers for a combined ~7 years.
ReplyDeleteJohn Cena is going on Year 8 being a repeat main eventer. Obviously this has nothing to do with the emailer, but I had to marvel at how insanely good Shawn is for how brief his main event run was.
If I remember correctly, the spot where he goes from being okay to completely in pain is indeed where his back hits the turnbuckle with incredible force on the Irish whip flip, and you can see the whiplash as his foot gets caught behind the rope.
ReplyDeleteI completely believe Shawn since the injury actually hurt the match. Come to think of it, both guys were far from 100%.
He was still on the payroll during his time off at a rumored 15K a week.
ReplyDeleteFOR FOUR YEARS.
To do nothing.
I'd take 3 million to sit at home and do drugs, bang a hot piece of ass, and find jesus.
not to mention royalties.
sure he missed out on a bunch more money but 3Ms is nothing to sneeze at especially given what he was contributing during the time.
To play devil's advocate, he might have seen the writing on the wall with Austin taking his spot. He might have thought he was going to be demoted the same way he had forced Bret to be demoted to midcard feuds in 1995 against guys like Jean-Pierre LaFitte. Maybe he thought the midcard was beneath him. Maybe he thought he wasn't going to be able to get back to the top and then decided to come back when he saw Rock was leaving, Austin was injured for good, and WWE was hurting for solid main event guys. When he came back Hunter was already at the top and in power, so he could have known his position wasn't going to be threatened because he had that to back him up.
ReplyDeleteNot saying I believe it, but the argument is there.
I do miss the short shorts referee outfit.
ReplyDeleteAlso, there's something to be said about HBK's goofy compared to Cena's. I certainly don't hate Cena, but that goofy stuff he does...oof. At least with Shawn it's at least bearable.
ReplyDeleteI can see both sides. Argument for back injury being serious enough:
ReplyDeleteMissed out on lots of money. Even if he was on his way out in WWF, he could go to WCW and land a big contract. In April 98, NO ONE foresaw WCW going under in 3 years, and big contracts were being handed out like candy (Bryan Adams for one).
Sold it well.
Arguments for it being exaggerated or fake:
Shawn's a dick. Still is, although he hides it better behind Jebus now.
He was pretty convincing with his performance after SS97 to show he wasn't in on the screwjob.
Major drug problems now and for the next 4 years.
Still getting paid while sitting out and doing the occasional appearance both on TV or at a fan event.
His ability to go from career-ending back injury to injury free specimen in 4 years, and managing to then wrestle 7 more years it amazing, some might say impossible.
So yeah I see both sides. I have such a nasty opinion of HBK at that point, I would believe just about anything about the little snake, but it does seem highly unlikely he would leave with all that money on the table.
...you would, you're a Fun Athletic Guy
ReplyDeleteThat's a LOT of variables to base a plan on, though - no way he could have foresaw Austin, Rock, and Foley all leaving, WCW folding, and Trips becoming such a power-player in just four years.
ReplyDeleteFor as much knowledge you have about wrestling, this post just sounds silly...especially the part where you seem to know that Shawn is still a dick at his core today and hides behind Jesus.
ReplyDeleteLet's just forget about him getting Jannetty a job and multiple tryouts in the last decade, speaking up for CM Punk in the writers' room when everyone was ragging on him, rarely putting himself over in a big feud, not relapsing on drugs for the last ten years, still preaching 10 years after being "born again," talking to fans on twitter constantly... these facts would hurt the argument that he's a dick (because a born again Christian is never allowed to make a mistake and he's automatically a hypocrite if he does something wrong like the rest of humanity).
Did anyone ever see what Bill Simmons wrote about that match? He was at the fleet center that night and he said that after the ring dimmed and the houselights went up Michael's was still laying there, and continued to do so, until Hunter and Chyna came in to help him up and back to the locker room.
ReplyDeleteI remember reading that too.
ReplyDeleteI don't know why people get so butt hurt at the possibility that Shawn might still be an asshole or have an ego the size of Texas. People seem to have this weird complex with him where the sky falls if he's done anything but become a saint. Whenever comments he's made are discussed, some people get incredibly sanctimonious about the whole thing. He was "born again" during his Off The Record interview (and off WWE sponsored TV) and certainly seemed a little less than graceful.
ReplyDeleteWho really cares anyway? I miss when people only cared whether or not his matches were good.
It's mostly because there's a lot of anti-Christian sentiment in these arguments. For so many cynics out there in Internet-land, any evidence contrary to 100% wholesome goodness makes any born again Christian a fraud or hypocrite. It's BS. It's not like I'm a bible thumper or "born again", either.
ReplyDeleteAnd people here like to tear Shawn down because Shane Helms is mad at him or something. Or maybe Paul London hates him, too, I can't remember. Or the ever delusional Jim Cornette still can't forgive him. By gawd, Michaels must be a dick.
Now, let's all circle jerk to the class act that Flair was over the years!
Who really cares? Well, comduk, me, and you do enough to type about it.
I don't disagree with your main point. I don't begrudge him for his apparent faith, just find it strange the way some people are so emotionally attached to and invested in him being seen as some kind of beacon in the dark or something.
ReplyDeleteI hate to sound like a cynic, but I do believe that what we see in public is a well crafted image that he's cultivated in order to extend his career. I'm sure that he's a person of faith behind the scenes too, but we're still seeing a character on camera. It's worked too -- they've effectively recast him as some kind of spiritual and physical comeback kid by playing up both aspects constantly. The fact that he was not even half the athlete in 2002 that he was in 1997 ended up not mattering much, because people buy into the character. In light of those aspects of his character though, I don't think it's really unfair to question the severity of his back injury. People are just being marks about it. Same goes for Flair too with some people.
Not that there is anything wrong with that. Any aging wrestler that can find a way to appeal to people still when their physical ability slips are smart business people. Not a lot of wrestlers can pull that off.
While HBK & Bret Hart were backstage pulling each others hair trying to protect their spot, Austin & eventually the Rock came in and kicked both to the curb.
ReplyDeleteI think HBK was hurt at WM14 but he could have easily returned, but his spot was gone.
During Attitude Era promos, HBK looked like a jabronie/sidekick standing next to the Rock or Austin.
I don't think his ego could take being at best the #5-7 guy on the roster. (Austin, Rock, HHH, Foley, Angle, Undertaker, Kane).
So he waited until Vince needed him, or with WCW finished maybe Vince was considering cutting his contract forcing HBK to return.
Source?
ReplyDeleteHe didn't even know Foley and Rock were becoming stars, but I'm pretty sure he knew Austin's days were numbered with a broken neck, and Triple H becoming a main-eventer was in the books for years at that point.
ReplyDeletewell i was pretty much thinking out loud about reasons for and against the back injury being faked/exaggerated. I do agree with NWA88. Not sure why it's such a big issue that people claim Shawn's a dick now. People call Hogan, Warrior, Bret Hart, Punk, and a million other wrestlers dicks all the time. But because Shawn found Jebus, suddenly he's good people. I have three reasons for thinking he's still a dick. Reason 1 is simply that I'm not a big believer that leopards change their spots that dramatically. Reason 2 is that I've heard enough stories about stuff backstage that reveals enough of the old Shawn to think he's just got a lot better at hiding his dickitude (what a word) and that it is also easier to hide it while drug free. Reason three is my own personal opinion, which I have offered several times before on this board, of Shawn's church. A quick google shows it's a hateful, spiteful little place that has been secretly filmed and reported on preaching politics such as, my personal favorite, praying for Scooter LIbby to get off on his charges and to punish the "liberals" who tried to hurt him.
ReplyDeleteBut it is just my opinion. Just like all the nasty things folks say about HHH, Hogan, Warrior, Bret Hart, Punk, Cena, or whoever else is just an opinion too. So if people disagree, that's fine, but don't get too worked up about it. Me saying he's a dick on a message board isn't hurting him any and shouldn't hurt anyone else either.
well he did keep doing occasional shows plus he did fan events, so either he got paid by the appearance or he was still on the payroll. WWF has kept guys on the payroll for years so they could make the odd TV appearance and work fan events or industry evens such as home video conventions.
ReplyDeleteTheir match at KOTR 97 was awesome but that was before both guys injuries.
ReplyDeleteWhile a bit repeatitive, his DX interactions with HHH backstage were fun. He just played himself as an old out of touch non threatening father.
ReplyDeleteI've asked this before, but wasn't he supposed to comeback as a wrestler in 2001 prior to being sent home?
ReplyDeleteyou are even selling him short here. Michaels had so much credibility that the WWE could easily insert him into the WrestleMania 23 title match without him looking "out of place".
ReplyDeleteI love me a conspiracy theory as much as the next guy. But Shawn would have had to be a retarded child to miss the Attitude era on purpose.
ReplyDeleteHe was getting high and banging a Nitro girl at the time. I can understand.
ReplyDeleteHear you on the high...but wasn't the Nitro girl about 2-3 years later?
ReplyDeletezenk's site from the observer.
ReplyDeleteI've mentioned this story before, but here it is again...
ReplyDeleteWhile I lived in Cincinnati, I had a friend who was trying to become a wrestler and was in OVW. So, a few years after, whenever the WWE was in town my buddy would go out with some of his old wrestling buddies for dinner and drinks. One night when I joined them, the talk was Shawn's back was hurt, but not that bad and the reason he was gone for so long was due to rehab for a very bad cocaine addiction. The claim was that was why he's so big on being "born again." It was one night of conversation, so who knows if it was true or just a fish tale.
That was heart shattering.
ReplyDeleteInteresting to think how long some performers had on top. Makes runs like Edge's look pretty commendable.
ReplyDeleteThat said, what about guys like Undertaker? HHH? Hogan? I'm sure there are plenty others that had crazy long runs on top, although maybe not continuously like Cena.
some. Hogan had a run in WWF of 7 1/2 years (jan 84-april 92). Flair had a run in JCP/WCW that lasted forever on top. Sting was basically on top from 90-98 (post Starcade 97, I wouldn't call him on top anymore). Not too many others. UT really was never on top for an extended time like a Cena or a Hogan. You could always toss him in a main event, but how often was he one of the top 2 or 3 guys carrying each ppv or Raw? Maybe 97-99, but even that is arguable with austin, HBK, Rock, Foley, HHH, etc. at various times. Maybe an argument for him being on top at times on SD in the first half of the new millenium, but combined I don't think you can even argue for a total of 5 years on top for UT due to all his breaks and being treated as a special attraction rather than a go to main eventer to appear on each show.
ReplyDeleteCena is in rare company with his longevity at the top.
That's why I've always- I don't want to say "overrate" the match- but I grade it on the curve. Shawn was damn near crippled and Austin had just come back from being damn near crippled, and for them to go out there and still deliver what I would say on it's own merits a ***1/2 match. But knowing the shape of both guys, and the build, and the hype, and the legacy of it, I've always given a pass into "great" around ***3/4-****
ReplyDeleteJust to look at something you said: "Reason 2 is that I've heard enough stories about stuff backstage that reveals enough of the old Shawn to think he's just got a lot better at hiding his dickitude (what a word) and that it is also easier to hide it while drug free." I'm just wondering how much of "old Shawn" consisted of natural dickitude(great word I'm going to steal it) and how much it was exacerbated by all the drugs he was on. I can't speak for Shawn either way but I know some people who when they were pilled up or drugged up or boozed up, I couldn't stand. But once they got sober they were much easier to be around and generally showcased less dickiness. Just a thought.
ReplyDeleteprobably very true. good post
ReplyDeleteit was pretty damn good, but hobbled by a special needs fan that jumped the barricade & a non-finish.
ReplyDeletedon't forget he was in every wwf video game. i don't think he was ever excluded, and they didn't, generally, have non-contracted talent on the game rosters--not in that time period, anyway.
ReplyDelete