Scott,
With over 11 years of perspective on the Austin heel turn at Wrestlemania 17, what is your take today? Should they have done the heel turn and just conducted it differently? Should they have just had him win the belt from Rock as a face and do one more run on top against Angle, Benoit, Jericho, and HHH, then return the face vs. face job to a returning Rock at SummerSlam? Should they have kept him face and had the Invasion start the next night, with DDP, Booker, et al challenging him?
I think a face Austin made the most sense, given the fact that Rock was leaving for a while and Stone Cold was still the fan favorite. Rock & Austin could do a respect handshake and beer toast on Raw only to have Shane unleash the WCW guys, 'injuring' Rock til summer and beating down Austin. You could have a precarious Austin/McMahon tandem brought together against a common enemy despite their disdain for each other. Team WWF vs. Team WCW at Backlash 2001? Austin could perhaps face DDP and Booker for a couple PPVs. Then, when Rock returns in summer, you could have Steve go heel and join the WCW guys just to stick it to Vince and reinforce the DTA thing. Heel-ish Austin vs. babyface Rock could happen somewhere in there, maybe with Rock leading the WWF against Austin and the WCW guys at Survivor Series. Maybe Austin vs. Rock vs. HHH at Wrestlemania 18?
Hey! No sneaky "rebooking the Invasion" questions, buddy.
The problem was not Austin turning heel. The problem was Austin turning heel on THAT night in THAT stadium. Clearly the character was staler than John Cena and needed to shook up, I don't think anyone's arguing against that. However, they rebuilt him by having him win the Rumble and then beating Rock in his hometown to win the World title, which is all kind of a babyface thing to do. If they did that as a babyface and then had him go mad with power over the next couple of months and shockingly join the Alliance at the Invasion PPV, then you've got something. Anything further would be rebooking the Invasion, so I shall say no more.
I would have loved to see Austin change to white trunks, boots, and knee braces for his heel run.
ReplyDeleteI still say the absolute, #1, above all mistake made was having Austin turn again at InVasion and join The Alliance. Now obviously The Alliance was rapidly becoming a joke and needed a top dog as a part of it, but doubling down on a heel Austin was so incredibly misguided. Remember the pop when he ran out the RAW before the PPV and beat up The Alliance? THAT WAS WHAT THE FANS WANTED TO SEE.
ReplyDeleteHell, if anything, it would have made a lot more sense for Rock to come back, turn heel, and join The Alliance. He could cite the fact that Vince suspended him and that the fans were now CHEERING for the guy who sold his soul to the devil, AND cheering for the devil himself in the quest against WCW/ECW.
The moment that changed everything was the next night on Raw during the cage assault on The Rock.
ReplyDeleteIf Triple H had turned on Austin instead of joining him, (which the crowd wanted, just listen to the pop when HHH is coming down the ramp) Austin's heel turn would have been a complete success. Instead, he faced even more stale acts (Kane and UT) and tag team mid-carders (The Hardy's). Even what came after (Benoit and Jericho) was not main-event level feuds.
It is easier to pin-point Austin's heel turn as the end of an era but I am still convinced to this day that the final nail in the attitude era was that HHH non-turn.
There is really no re-
ReplyDeleteI think Austin himself said it best. He'd do everything exactly the same as he did, except after winning the title, he'd Stun Vince too - thus becoming a bad-ass, paranoid, tweener, who would do WHATEVER it took to win the title, the only thing that mattered to him in life.
ReplyDeleteThat would have rocked. And have him grow his hair back (if he could), shave his goatee and perform slow and methodical technical wrestling instead of fast-paced brawling.
ReplyDeleteThen again, that's Stunning Steve Austin. 8 )
Corny rebooked the InVasion I believe and he sucked at it.
ReplyDeleteEveryone else, please stop.
Would the crowd pop for Austin stunning Vince be loud, or HOLY SHIT loud? I imagine people in that crowd were at least expecting it.
ReplyDeleteI have to take umbrage with that statement that Austin was staler than John Cena. Sure, Steve was doing things he had been doing for years but at least he CARED about something, mainly his bloodthirsty desire to regain the world title.
ReplyDeleteWhat the fuck does John Cena care about when he's in an angle?
I would have liked him to have come out in a suit and asked to be called "Steven" or Mr Austin. Do the whole corporate stuff that McMahon always wanted and then eventually get sick of it and turn face again.
ReplyDeletethe cena nation.
ReplyDeleteHLR
ReplyDeleteDoes he really? He never calls out to the Ce-Nation like Hogan or Rock did to their fans.
ReplyDeleteTHIS. Austin never had a proper face foil to play off and the fans would've been completely behind Hunter in that role at the time. I just watched that segment a few nights ago and the pop for Hunter is probably top three loudest pops of his whole career.
ReplyDeleteIt's a shame that match took place in Texas because all the little heelish things Austin does in that match are fantastic to watch. If it had been done on neutral territory it would have been a beautiful sort of sequel to the WM13 match.
ReplyDeleteWhy is it not in the least bit surprising that HHH made a decision that was bad for business but good for himself
ReplyDeleteExactly, Austin being heel at the same time as the invasion makes NO. FUCKING. SENSE.
ReplyDeleteMerchandise sales?
ReplyDeleteHOLY SHIT loud, definitely HOLY SHIT loud
ReplyDeleteThat's what I was thinking. He all but murders Rock, and they still act like he won Four Superbowls.
ReplyDeleteInteresting. I think Rock's promos could probably sell the Alliance better as a threat than Austin's could, too.
ReplyDeleteI would love to believe that the plan prior to HHH tearing his quad was a Austin vs HHH title match at Summerslam. Who knows for sure. The Austin heel turn and invasion should have been better. The potential was huge
ReplyDeleteI actually disagreed with Austin when he said this. Not to discount the immensely important part the live audience plays, but that would have been playing to the thousands in the live audience at the expense of the millions watching at home. Yes, the live audience would've popped, but the people who ordered the show would've been left confused. So wait, Austin just let McMahon help him with the title....and then he beat up McMahon.....are we supposed to love him? Hate him? Be indifferent?
ReplyDeleteHe wasn't too good at booking ROH either.
ReplyDeletenone of this matters anymore.
ReplyDeletei do like that he changed up the knee braces. subtle touch.
ReplyDeleteI agree. What's the point of talking about the past at all?
ReplyDeleteOn Monday I'm going to drive to the nearest high-school and punch the History Teacher square in the liver. Then I'm gonna drive my monster truck over to the nearest college and crunch the History Professor's car. When questioned why, I will simply yell
None of this matters anymore!
Oh, and that Spielberg, he's got an ankle lock in his future...freakin Lincoln movie...
It was an interesting way to go creatively. Austin was the man, had a career threatening injury, came back, came up short in a match he used to win, and the doubts and desperatyion turn an already unstable character paranoid and more dangerous....great story, adds layers to the character..but its just wrestling and the average fan just wanted to see Austin drink beer and beat up bad guys..
ReplyDeleteAustin being on WCW's side during the invasion should never have happened. All the switching sides is part of what convoluted the angle to begin with. Angle was never in WCW, Austin hated WCW, it made no sense. It just became a McMahon family squabble instead if 2 companies battling it out and THAT'S why it failed.
ReplyDeleteHLA -- the obvious end to the AJ/Vickie angle.
ReplyDeleteTune into Raw to find out!
ReplyDeleteI would becoming the top face in Rock's absence would have been good for himself. The only problem is the quad tear still happens two months later.
ReplyDeleteIf whatever network Smackdown was on at the time let WWE change it to Nitro, we never have to suffer through a botched invasion angle. At least not for a year or so.
ReplyDeleteyou're silly!
ReplyDeletei'm all about recalling & discussing past events, but i just don't get the big deal about fantasy booking them.
It was Raw that was planned to be the WCW show (Smackdown was doing higher ratings at the time), and it was the fans that pretty much killed that one. Even before the Booker-Bagwell match, WCW matches at the house shows were being shit on, and people were threatening to refund already-bought tickets for "WCW Raw".
ReplyDeleteI have a hard time believing Vince would turn his flagship show into Nitro. So I'm calling bullshit on this unless you have a source.
ReplyDeleteWON that covered the WCW DVD. Dont remember date. Sometime in 2009.
ReplyDeleteTurning "Stone Cold" Steve Austin heel was always a risky proposition but when they bought WCW & ECW less than a month before Wrestlemania XVII, they should have changed course and begin the natural build for the rest of the year and beyond...Stone Cold leading the WWF to war against WCW and ECW. Sure the WWF was stacked at the time and in most fans eyes would have wiped the floor with the Alliance but i would have let Kurt Angle and a bunch of the recent WWF recruits go back to WCW to level the playing field (Jericho,Big Show,Guerrero,Malenko,Saturn,Expletive Deleted etc)
ReplyDeleteIf anything, he calls out more to the people that boo him constantly.
ReplyDeleteIf that's the payoff then it'll all be worth it.
ReplyDeleteJesus, no more fantasy booking! It's obnoxiously gay.
ReplyDeleteIt really bugged me that when we FINALLY got Jericho and Benoit(even though he'd already touched it a couple of times) on the main event, it ended being almost nothing. I have to imagine that if there hadn't been a quad tear, they would have run benoit/triple H and Jericho/Austin. Instead we got a pretty crappy three way on King of the Ring I believe?
ReplyDeleteThe original main-event for "King of the Ring" that year was Austin/Jericho, with Benoit only being added after Trips' injury - two one-on-one matches was almost definitely the original plan.
ReplyDeleteI'm in the minority, but I actually completely supported the idea of Austin joining WCW - WCW needed a huge name to give them credibility, and it made sense that Austin would want to put Vince out of business.
ReplyDeleteI definitely agree that the non-stop and nonsensical switching of sides was ridiculous and completely watered down both sides, but I definitely think having that one big name was completely needed.
Bingo - artistically, it was fantastic, but nobody wanted to see it.
ReplyDeleteThat would have been the logical time to push Jericho as a heel to the moon, no? it's at least logically consistent.
ReplyDeleteOr it doesn't, since butterfly effect. If HHH/Austin aren't a team, they don't wrestle Team Chris that night and thus HHH doesn't blow out his quad. I thought that's the type of injury that is just a 'one bad step' kind of thing, not an injury just waiting to happen.
ReplyDeleteIt's a great story, yet we can only see it now with years of hindsight. I think most fans would've been in on it had the commentary and focus of the WM build had been, "can Stone Cold still do it?", though pointing out that a guy may not be capable anymore is a) an odd way to market a clash of the titans WM main event or b) a babyface storyline, since the obvious ending is that yes, Austin CAN still win the big one.
ReplyDeleteAustin showed virtually no weakness in his comeback besides (barely) losing to HHH at No Way Out. Had they played up him losing a step from the start (i.e. losing a match to Angle on Raw, winning the Rumble but only due to an even later number than the #27 he received, losing to HHH somewhat more decisively at NWO) then it might've been a clearer storyline going into Wrestlemania. But then we wouldn't have gotten the enthralling story of Debra being in both guys' corners. *rolls eyes*
I don't even think Austin was that 'stale' a character in his comeback. First of all, he'd been out of action for about a year, so it was fun seeing the old Stone Cold back in action. Secondly, he changed up his wrestling style, going from brawling to trading technical holds with Angle and HHH, so that was cool to see Austin return to his roots.
ReplyDeleteAgreed. HHH becoming the new top face without actually changing his character would have been tremendous. Hunter had the automatic sympathy, if you have his bitchy wife allying with her corporate daddy to hold her husband down. The Angle-HHH stuff showed the potential there. HHH having the tables turned on him, but outfoxing the McMahon/Austin regime as the 'cerebral assassin' could have been great. Of course, he blew out his quad anyway, but the big return could have been all the better.
ReplyDeleteExactly. I understand turning Austin, on some level, but why do it when The Rock is leaving for a while AND HHH is staying heel? You are left with Undertaker as your top babyface (done to death), Benoit and Jericho (waiting for a push that wasn't coming yet), and Kurt Angle being bumped down to third on the heel depth chart (maybe 5th if you count Steph and Vince).
ReplyDeleteYep, you could have Jericho sell his soul back to WCW and lead the charge as the guy who was held down too long.
ReplyDeleteI like the idea of Austin leading WCW in the sense that it's the ONE thing he hasn't done to fuck with Vince and it's the ultimate nightmare for McMahon. Problem is, it makes WCW the faces invading Vince's empire and that just was never going to fly.
ReplyDeleteWould have loved to see Benoit win the KOTR Tourney that year instead of the Triple Threat match. Play up the neck injury and the fact that he needs to go have surgery, but he's just too tough and stubborn to pull out of the tournament. He wins it, then takes a forced hiatus to get surgery. Then when he comes back in 2002, he can demand a title shot or whatever.
ReplyDeleteI literally don't understand the point of this comment at all. I'm also really drunk.
ReplyDeleteI incidentally also watched the SCSA documentary on Netflix tonight, and wow. Much better than I thought. Cried during the Rock at WM19 part, even though I already knew the story.
Funniest part was when Austin thought he almost cracked up the Undertaker during the Invasion stuff. Totally makes the heel turn worth it.
I get sleepy 10 seconds into thinking what Cena might or might not care about, honestly. Never had that problem with Austin.
ReplyDeleteHe loves the WWE(tm) and the WWE UNIVERSE(tm)
ReplyDeleteHonestly, I think half a wrestling fan's time is spent fantasy booking.
ReplyDeleteI always sit and thinking about how WCW should have gone after Starrcade 1997. That's my white whale as far as fantasy booking goes....
What? Rock only knows how to sell himself.
ReplyDeleteI would have preferred Benoit/Austin over Jericho/Austin myself.
ReplyDeleteStaler than Cena? Let's not go nuts here!
ReplyDeleteNumber 2 Heel feuding with Kane or number 1 heel feuding with Austin? Pretty sure if Triple H wanted the selfish choice he'd have went face.
ReplyDeleteWell, it was ROH so not his fault. No one can book ROH to be a success, Hell, they might as well let Russo take a shot.
ReplyDeleteFantasy booking the FUTURE, maybe. but my circle of rasslin' pals doesn't really fantasy book the past. to each, his own!
ReplyDelete