Hi Scott,
Flair4dagold here.
I got into a (one-sided)debate with another poster in the Taka-HHH thread in which he was adamant that you HATED HHH in 2000 and all of the evidence I found from match reviews and even your "glass ceiling" article leads me to believe that you thoroughly enjoyed his run because he was putting on 4* matches on a consistent basis. The larger problem, as highlighted in the "glass ceiling" article, was by early 2001, the main event scene was becoming stale and that WWF/E blaming guys like Jericho for not getting as over was dumb because they didn't get the same kind of push as HHH or UT.
Can you clarify, did you hate HHH in 2000? Did you order the code red??
Thanks!
Flair4dagold here.
I got into a (one-sided)debate with another poster in the Taka-HHH thread in which he was adamant that you HATED HHH in 2000 and all of the evidence I found from match reviews and even your "glass ceiling" article leads me to believe that you thoroughly enjoyed his run because he was putting on 4* matches on a consistent basis. The larger problem, as highlighted in the "glass ceiling" article, was by early 2001, the main event scene was becoming stale and that WWF/E blaming guys like Jericho for not getting as over was dumb because they didn't get the same kind of push as HHH or UT.
Can you clarify, did you hate HHH in 2000? Did you order the code red??
Thanks!
I loved HHH in 98 during the DX run, hated him in 99 when he got shoved down our throats as an undeserving World champion, loved him immensely from the moment he date-raped Stephanie in Vegas until he tore his quad in 2001, and then basically hated him from his comeback at Rumble 2002 until the present time. In fact in 2000 I was famously quoted as saying "HHH is God".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rDfRd0IZ-Vo
ReplyDeleteAs for the poster who insisted that Scott hated 2000 HHH, you could say both Flair4dagold and Scott...
ReplyDelete*puts on sunglasses*
...stole his thunder.
YEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!
WHERE IS THE PRROOOOOFFF!
ReplyDeleteGlad to see Scott Keith, HHH, and Flair4dagold are still alive. I just woke up from the coma I went into during the last HHH/Undertaker match. Spoiler alert: Heaven is full of 2000 Stephanie's tits.
ReplyDeleteThis topic reminds me of how awesome My Time was. ONE, TWO, IS THIS ON?
ReplyDeleteJames Woods was one of the bright spots of it. If you get an over-the-top villain, then you need an actor who can climb over the top, and Woods and Dennis Hopper (RIP) are/were the kings of that.
ReplyDeleteI've never liked Triple H and only tolerated him from January 2000 (the Foley match) until fall of that year when it became clear that he inexplicably wasn't going to turn face and feud with Angle. The guy is just maybe the most overrated wrestler in history....his "nonstop four-star matches" all came against the likes of Foley, Rock, Jericho, Benoit, Angle, Austin and several other guys who virtually anyone could have a good match against. A five-minute competitive squash against Taka doth not a wrestling god (tm JBL) make. Maybe an unpopular opinion, but in my books, HHH is just a slightly better version of Jeff Jarrett
ReplyDeleteHHH defenitely had his moment in the sun and earned that moment.
ReplyDeleteThe problem in my eyes is that he basically parlayed one single strong year into a career of undeserved notoriety. Aside from 2000, he basically has been classic Kliq -- decent matches with his good buddies and a give a crap attitude about everyone else.
Hell yeah! Whoever it was a couple days ago that said that music sucked is a moron.
ReplyDeleteFoley certainly wasn't having good matches during that period, so I don't think it's fair to say he carried Triple H. He did in their 1997 matches to be fair, but by 2000 it was clearly 50/50 in terms of who did what. Now Foley DID bust his ass to make HHH a legitimate main eventer, but HHH carried his share of that match.
ReplyDeleteJericho's first classic match in the WWF was with HHH. That speaks volumes to me.
And what speaks even more volumes is that Austin and Jericho had pretty mediocre matches in, contrasted with excellent matches they both had with HHH.
Anyone who is anyone whose read Scott's work should know his stance on HHH. It was back in 2000 I got into SK's reviews and HHH could do no wrong back then until he returned from the torn quad in 2002, then it turned to vilified and justified hate.
ReplyDeleteHas any one man had as many awesome themes as Hunter?
ReplyDeleteDegeneration X theme.
My Time.
The Game.
Evolution theme.
King of Kings.
GIMME A LITTLE OF THE TRIPLE H
ReplyDeleteI didn't liked him as "Hunter Hears" - he was so boring and bland.
ReplyDeleteI liked him in the DX - despite the montreal incident.
I hated him from end of 2002 until Wrestlemania 21.
After the evolution John Cena was more to hate than Triple H. ;-)
Taker? I mean besides the theme where he sings(I think it's him) and the Limp Bizkit theme, his themes have been pretty solid.
ReplyDeleteYup. Came back bloated, slow with a new Moveset... Worked a much slower style and just pretty much sucked for a few years before bouncing back and being solid again
ReplyDeleteno, silicone is what The Road To Hell is paved with.
ReplyDelete(spot where Horatio C.....ERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR.....Lerxst_Pratt takes OFF his sunglasses)
ReplyDeleteYEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
2000 Undertaker was the target of most of Scott's vitriol during that era, as it should be for anyone who saw Fully Loaded 2000 ("Retire, you washed-up son of a bitch" or something like that?)
ReplyDeleteWeren't all 3 of those simply remixes of the same theme ad nauseum?
ReplyDeleteTaker no, but I'm pretty sure Austin and Rock had different themes after the more known ones.
ReplyDeleteA topic about when or why smarks hate Triple H is more tiresome than....well, Triple H.
ReplyDeleteIt is tiresome but I wanted to have finality since some poster was being moronic about it.
ReplyDeleteHe was like that little nugget that won't go down the crapper. Now, would somebody please, FLUSH THAT.
ReplyDeleteSorry, HBK moment.
He suffers from the same thing a lot of talkers from his era do: taking twenty minutes to say five minutes worth of material.
ReplyDeleteHey Flair,
ReplyDeleteChin here.
Oh, come one. King of Kings is AWFUL.
ReplyDeleteIt sounds like it was recorded at gunpoint,and read off the backs of the WWE stamped cheques.
Uh...what?
ReplyDeleteDude who insisted that Scott hated HHH went by the name of White Thunder...
Are you talking about You're Gonna Pay? That's DEFINITELY not him singing lol.
ReplyDeleteI guess you never watched an episode of CSI:Miami. My apologies
ReplyDeleteDoes anyone think he came back too soon in 2002? I know the big Rumble win and WM Title win were set in stone, but maybe he wasn't physically ready to come back at his 2000-01 level?
ReplyDeleteWad up chin. I know, I'm a real dork for typing that...lol.
ReplyDeleteTerrible.
ReplyDeleteUnfortunately, we're still living in that era. I love Punk, but he takes his sweet time to get to his point as well. I don't blame the wrestlers though, Vince should enforce a 5 minute promo time limit or something.
ReplyDeleteThreadjaccccccccccccccccccccccccccck: Apparently Eve is leaving WWE after tonight. WWE's Divas division is a mess. It's time to shut it down.
ReplyDeleteI've never played a FF game before but I kinda love that movie for unknown reasons.
ReplyDeleteHopefully I didn't cross into Fuj territory, lol. I wasn't trying to get over.
ReplyDeleteNever go full Fuj.
ReplyDeleteIt's amazing how tragic that Candanian Chris Connection vs 2 Man Power Trip feels now. One of the best matches I've ever seen, with each performer getting a moment to shine, and each performer making the other 3 look good. A match like that is how it's supposed to work, and then....the quad tears.
ReplyDeleteHHH becomes a pargody of himself; Austin turns into the paranoid heel that he was portraying; Chris Jericho becomes distracted after years of having his potential farted on; and Benoit...
I really feel like that match was some sort of peak, before the wave rolls back. That's not to say there weren't other awesome moments, and other awesome moments involving all 4 wrestlers, but that match was a great example of what happens when great booking meets great in ring work.
Yikes, do they even have other ones? Now what are they supposed to play while I take a piss? Eve was definitely the best one of the shit divas
ReplyDeleteThat's a pretty cynical way of looking at 3 out of 4 guys
ReplyDeleteIt made me laugh really hard for some reason.
ReplyDelete"Chris Jericho becomes distracted after years of having his potential farted on"
ReplyDeleteLOL. The fuck does this even mean?
The Dark Knight Rises is the greatest movie ever made.
ReplyDeleteBasically Austin was the most successful wrestler of all time who now gets paid lots of money to star in really shitty movies; Jericho is an all time legend who just worked wrestlemania for the wwe title and lives his dream touring around with his band and has creative control over his wrestling character; and HHH runs the WWE. Benoit is still considered one of the best workers ever.
ReplyDeleteThere is no stopping the rise of cultstaus's comment count
ReplyDeleteWe coming for you nigga!
ReplyDeleteWatched Zero Dark Thirty yesterday, it was pretty good. That Bigelow chick makes a fine war movie.
ReplyDeleteGonna check out Lincoln some time this week if I can find it on totally absolutely legal downloads dot com.
Damnit, why couldn't there have been a TNA Genesis live thread last night? My spot could be gone by the times Raws over. I don't know if I'm making the live thread...fucking pacific standard time
ReplyDeleteLincoln is fucking great. DDL is out of this world as an actor
ReplyDeleteI'm drunk right now so I'm going to post total bullshit all day. I'm post whoring my way to the top tonight!
ReplyDeleteTNA PPV last night: Storm v Daniels and the main event were great, the rest of the show sucked. Mr. Anderson...seriously??? They are gonna push him now???
ReplyDeleteFinally saw Argo the other day. I love Oscar season, easy to find, great quality DVD screeners are all over the internets!
ReplyDeleteThere was a TNA PPV last night?
ReplyDeleteI expect him to completely outweigh my distaste for Spielberg.
ReplyDeleteUgh.
ReplyDeleteBest spielberg movie in a looooooooong time
ReplyDeleteAs great as I thought Punk's promo on Monday was I thought it seemed like he was stalling. I kept thinking, "the Rock'll come out now!" And the promo kept going on.
ReplyDeleteI don't think you need to enforce a time limit, especially if you're going to have dueling promos, but I think there should be an emphasis on brevity.
You missed Samoa Joe jobbing to Anderson and Joesph Parks jobbing to Devon. Good times!
ReplyDeleteJust went over to 411 to read the results. Sounded terrible.
ReplyDeleteDrunk? Sweet christ where do you live?!
ReplyDeleteStill reeling from last night.
ReplyDeleteWatch it online at a certain citrusy sport website.
ReplyDeleteWell at least Sting pinned Doc!!!...ugh
ReplyDeleteI was going to be reply with Minority Report but just remembered that actually 10 years ago or so.
ReplyDeleteKingdom of the crystal skulls is pretty recent though
ReplyDeleteA fart is when gas escapes your turd cutter.
ReplyDeleteFor girls, when gas escapes their personality, it's called a queef. Similar but different.
KOCS is fucking terrible. Like Phantom Menace level bad.
ReplyDeleteI hate you.
ReplyDeletejobber, please tell me you didn't like KOCS. I concur with the South Park boys on that one, Spielberg and Lucas raped me.
ReplyDelete"You never go full retard."
ReplyDeleteTotal piece of shit movie. Hate it
ReplyDeleteThat features the gayest entrance in a movie ever. Shia riding through the smoke on a motorcycle looking like someone from the Village People.
ReplyDeleteYeah, I was considerationing Zero Dark Thirty actually, this is the first year I've actually jumped on that "watch all the nominees" thing, so far it's been fun.
ReplyDeleteAt least it led to the south park where ss and lucas were raping the corpse
ReplyDeleteI stayed sober to properly enjoy my friends and family crying about the Seahawks. Love to root against them.
ReplyDeleteGreat action movie
ReplyDeleteCongrats to us for totally wrecking another blog post. High five!
ReplyDeleteFuck Atlanta. They destroyed my childhood.
ReplyDeletePoor guy tried to redirect this nonsense to a forum and everything, nay I say. Nay.
ReplyDeleteI call it Hotlanta because I'm cool in 1998.
ReplyDeleteFinally saw Django, holy shit that was awesome. The KKK scene reminded me so much of the "what did the Romans ever do for us" from Python's Life of Brian.
ReplyDeleteThrowing 'bows.
ReplyDeleteJonah Hill was terrible casting. Felt so forced.
ReplyDeleteI think there are two forums. Caliber and Fuj started some jobber forum too.
ReplyDeleteHis accent had me wishing for Pitt's terrible Aldo Rayne.
ReplyDeleteIt's pretty well known that Chin has gotten jiggy a time or two in his day.
ReplyDeleteEh, he had like two lines. The scene was brilliant either way.
ReplyDeleteThat's why it was so distracting to me. It was stunt casting.
ReplyDeleteThe more I think about it the more I'm certain it's my favorite scene in the movie. It's the only one where the dialogue is actually interesting as far as I can remember.
ReplyDeleteKing Kofi Kingston!
ReplyDeleteLol, some woman downvoted it.
ReplyDeleteYou're at a level one Dougie. Some randoms will randomly downvote your posts. A level four Dougie is every post you make gets downvoted into oblivion.
ReplyDeleteBring Back Bass.
ReplyDeleteYeah it's funny, they are still hooked on that formula and with three hours to fill, no end seems to be in sight.
ReplyDeleteI was watching a bit of the Rock / Hogan build the other day -- that first inital interview between them. The video packages make it look so tight, but if you sit down to watch the whole interview, they drag it out way too long. There must be six or seven long pauses to stare at each other and four or five of those "acknowledge the crowds dueling chants with a slow head turn" spots. Even Jim Ross echoes what he perceives as fans being annoyed by acknowledging they are taking too long to get to the point.
I just keep coming back to the Earthquake / Hogan angle. Brother Love music and shtick, introduce Jimmy Hart with music, Hogan with music, interview, Earthquake attack, dramatic injury sell, and Hogan taken away on a stretcher -- all clocking in at around five minutes (!) and leading to a WrestleMania level buyrate. Now that's pacing and efficiency.
I downvoted it. Sexism never gets an upvote.
ReplyDeleteThe super slowed down....I.....am......a.......reaaaaal.......Ameri.....can...... in the first post-attack video package is burned into my memory forever.
ReplyDeleteRandom WrestleMania match idea: The US, IC, and Tag titles all get defended in one match. 8 guys start the match as a 4 team tag match for the tag titles. The two wrestlers who win exit the match as champs as well as the eliminated team. Then the match evolves into a 4 way match for the US title. The wrestler who wins exits the match as well as the guy who was pinned. Then the match turns into a singles match for the IC title. For example:
ReplyDeleteHell No, Rhodes Scholars, Barrett, Kofi, Cesaro, and Miz are all in the match. For the tag title match, Barrett and Cesaro are a team and Miz and Kofi are a team.
Rhodes Scholars wins the tag titles by beating Miz and Kofi and all four guys are eliminated.
Cesaro defeats Barrett to retain the US title and eliminates both guys.
Bryan beats Kane to win the IC title and ends the match.
What does everyone think? I'm drunk.
I'm pretty sure this is the remaining Divas roster:
ReplyDelete-- Three dancing fools (Layla, Cameron and Naomi)
-- Two who are so incompetent that their matches expose the business (Aksana and Rosa)
-- A woman who has willingly affiliated herself with Khali and Hornswoggle
-- Kaitlyn, who bores me to tears, and then makes my tears so bored that they dry up before they can get to the bottom of my cheek
-- And AJ, whether you like her or not, is above the Divas division.
I agree w/ Cultstatus, just put the whole division out of it's misery. Or bring back Maria Menounos.
"I'm drunk."
ReplyDeleteNo shit.
Yeah, but still. That is a great idea right?
ReplyDeleteBut...you wouldn't want to win the first two matches...
ReplyDeleteRhodes Scholars and Hell No would.
ReplyDeleteSeems like being able to wrestle is an awful thing for a diva. They pissed off Gail Kim so much she left. Got rid of Mickie. Drove Beth to quit. Gave Natty the fart gimmick. Apparently the best thing for the career of a lady in the WWE is just be shitty.
ReplyDeleteThe way I see it, I'd rather have match like this that lasts 20 or so minutes then see the shitty time cramped individual matches.
ReplyDeleteWouldn't a guy rather win a singles title than a tag title? If my option is try real hard and win a tag title but then have no chance of winning a singles title because I've been eliminated for trying...I wouldn't try. I'd sit back and let the most dominant guys in the match eliminate themselves so I'd have a better shot at an IC title.
ReplyDeleteThat's probably the real issue here, the design means the strongest guys in the match would leave first.
Haha yes, with the Hulka-sizer synths and shots of him with Dolly Parton and on the Tonight Show with Johnny Carson. It was surely of its time, although I remember reading in an old Observer that Meltzer was just blown away by it. I suppose it's a pretty early example of a more modem style video package than they were doing at the time, plus it acknowledges a lot of history which was unusual at that time in the WWF.
ReplyDeleteThey're tag teams, they want the tag titles. Miz, Kofi, Barrett, and Cesaro would rather win the single titles and I think that would make the tag team portion interesting.
ReplyDeleteI have a huge soft spot for that angle, I was ALL IN at the time, maybe like 10 or 11 years old. I remember writing to Hulk in the hospital and getting back a printed thank you card. I probably still have that somewhere.
ReplyDeleteWell, it is where the playas play
ReplyDeleteIt would be interesting for sure, as Miz, Kofi, Barrett and Cesaro are desperately trying to not win, lol.
ReplyDeleteIn theory you'd have those 4 teaming up on Rhodes Scholars in the hopes that Hell No would beat them to get rid of Kane for the singles portion. It's an interesting idea but I think it probably devolves into a clusterfuck.
Same, I was eight or nine and got that card too, although I have no idea what happened to it. You should scan that, I wanna see it again lol. Only thing I remember is that there was totally a hard sell in it for the PPV, but I got it in September after the event, whoops haha
ReplyDeleteIt definitely could be a clusterfuck but I think the match with those 8 guys could rock because, with the exception of Miz, they are all at least good in the ring.
ReplyDeleteSome time this week I'll look through the garage and see if I can find it, lol.
ReplyDeleteDefinitely gonna need Pat for this.
ReplyDeleteOnly one woman can bring back the glory days of the Divas division. Stephanie McMahon. The greatest Women's champion of all time.
ReplyDeleteWaaaah!
ReplyDeleteThat is way to complicated to be of any use I think
ReplyDeleteSpeak for yourself!
ReplyDeleteI often wonder how Hulkamania and WWE in general would have been like if they had a Raw type show back then.
ReplyDeleteDon't forget Sara Del Ray.
ReplyDeleteWouldn't you want a structure where the IC title, which I thiiink is more prestigious than the others, is decided first?
ReplyDeleteHe was two tons of chemically enhanced muscle. It isn't that he wasn't ready to perform, it's that he was physically incapable of performing.
ReplyDeleteDude was out of breath from the effort it took to breathe.
if we're counting WWF, Austin had his Ringmaster theme, the original Hell Froze Over theme, the remix of that, I Won't Do What You Tell me (it's basically the same, only the bass parts aren't so... crunchy?) then the Numetal Disturbed one.
ReplyDeleteRock's had about a billion different remixes, but almost always the same song. Even Hollywood Rock used the same song, really.
Your sense of humor is sharp as ever.
ReplyDeleteI'm still not over that time when the Hunter Worst Helmsly made Spike Dudley job to a sleeper.
ReplyDeleteYou have to go through the grind of the match and try to survive to win the IC title.
ReplyDeleteI've now got the bizarre mental image of BikerTaker coming down to the ring singing, "YOU'RE GONNA PAY, YOU'RE GONNA PAY, I'M BURNING THESe ONES TO THE GROUND, YOU'RE GONNA PAY, YOU'RE GONNA PAY, I'M GONNA BRING YOU DOWN" whilst pointing threateningly at his opponent! lol
ReplyDeleteI believe I read somewhere that for some reason she is only going to be used as a trainer...
ReplyDeleteGood question. Probably similar as I think there are advantages and disadvantages to both environments. Syndicated distribution was really to the 1980s what cable TV was to the 1990s in terms of national exposure, although I think you needed to have even more attention to detail because you taped so many weeks of TV at a time that had to work seamlessly with whatever local content needed to patched in.
ReplyDeleteArrivederci!
ReplyDeleteTell someone in 2000 undertaker will be 20x more over with smarks than huntor 13 years later.
ReplyDeleteBon-jour-no.
ReplyDeleteThe phrase was "Retire now, you crippled, has been, slow-moving, fried-food eating, motorcyle-riding, no-selling, tobacco-chewing, no-money-drawing, talentless piece of selfish SHIT"
ReplyDeleteStill draws a laugh when I read it.
Yup. Right before then Foley was stinking up the joint with Val Venis and from his own recollections, was talking about how he was really struggling to put on good matches and get other up-and-comers interested in working with him.
ReplyDeleteWasn't that Harvey Wippleman?
ReplyDeleteBut you'll have people who don't want to go for pins? like, if it's not elimination, I get your argument, but, at the same time, you're punishing the people who get wins, in a sense.
ReplyDeleteIt would be pretty crazy.
ReplyDeleteHe's better than Jarrett, but if we were conducting a pyramid of the greatest wrestlers, he'd be under Rock, Austin, Hogan, Flair, HBK, Bret Hart, Savage, Andre, Undertaker and maybe even Sting.
ReplyDeleteIf you'd told me circa 2000 that UT would be capable of even one ***+ match after 2008, I would have laughed...
ReplyDeleteAnd I was always nice to you in your reviews :(
ReplyDeleteThe singles guys won't go for pins, but it's balanced out by having the two tag teams in the match too. Then when it gets a fatal four way match, the only guy who won't want to win is Barrett.
ReplyDeleteI read that too, but there's no reason she can't wrestle.
ReplyDeleteLOL...
ReplyDeleteHa! His middle name was "Hearst" but you called him "Worst" because he is both disliked and it RHYMES! I get it. I get that reference!
ReplyDeleteI'm not saying that the guys in the match were worthless or have contributed nothing since. I'm saying that the period where that match took place was a really awesome time to be a fan where everything was clicking. You had the best in the company at the top of the card, interacting seamlessly.
ReplyDeleteJericho has had a great career and I'm happy that he tours with his band and seems pretty conteted. I'm not talking about Jericho failing, I'm talking about turning him into Stephanie McMahon's whipping boy and wasting a lot of potential. The company gave him every reason to focus on his band instead of wrestling. WWE left a lot of money on the table with Jericho.
Austin, it turns out, hits women, leaves when he feels disrespected, and is a much better performer than he is a person.
Benoit is of course one of the greatest workers of all time, never said he wasn't.
All I was reflecting on was how WWE had their ducks in a row with that match, had all of their stars without any real baggage, everyone focused, and everyone working on the same page. It's like reflecting on how in synch Lennon and McCartney were before things turned sour. I'm in awe of something amazing being put together, and I'm sad that it's gone. That was all I meant.
It had a great voice cast. Where else can you get Steve Buscemi and Roz from Frasier verbally sparring?
ReplyDeleteYes! And also 'worst' means 'the lef three or more
ReplyDeleteSay what you want about HHH, but the Foley 2000 Rumble match (HHH is God!!), and the 3 stages of hell in 2001 are 2 matches that I would watch every day of my life.
ReplyDeleteAnd Rocky-HHH, Iron Man Match ain't too shabby.
ReplyDeleteThat's my favorite Rocky match.
ReplyDeletelet the music keep playing because it dont mean shhhhhhhhhh
ReplyDeleteYeah, it the perfect background noise movie.
ReplyDeleteDude, it's Spike Dudley. Who gives a fuck.
ReplyDeleteDidn't they do something along the lines of this at WM 2000 with Benoit, Angle, and Jericho?
ReplyDeleteI was too young at the time and I hardly remember.
Sleeper>Spine Buster
ReplyDeleteI would like it, if it wasnt for that crap ending.
ReplyDeleteRed Letter Media hits it on the head with KOCS. Best critique of it, I think.
ReplyDeleteI hated him in 2000, because I was 10 and the Rock was my hero.
ReplyDeleteExactly. No one could ever give an f-word about Little Spike again because HWH jobbed him to a resthold. Boom, the former ECW main-eventer is now a jobber.
ReplyDeleteAnd I also never forgave him for jobbing Stephanie McMahon to the spinebuster.
ReplyDeleteno
ReplyDeleteShould've just called me a fag just so we could hit all the wrestling fan cliches.
ReplyDeleteIt's cheddar.
ReplyDelete