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Thunder - January 8, 1998 (Debut Episode)

Date: January 8, 1998
Location: Ocean Center, Daytona Beach, Florida
Commentators: Tony Schiavone, Lee Marshall, Bobby Heenan 

Reviewed by Tommy Hall 

Due to the success of 1997, WCW decided to add another show to it's TV schedule so here's their new idea. Tonight is a souped up show as debuts often are, as we have a Cruiserweight Title match, an update on the world title situation after the debacle at Starrcade, and the Larry Zbyszko vs. Eric Bischoff match from Starrcade in full, which I'm sure wouldn't get on the nerves of the fans who paid for the show. Let's get to it.

The announcers talk about how they're sure Sting is the world champion.

Randy Savage is supposed to be in the opening match but he isn't here yet. Instead, here's a clip from Nitro of the NWO arriving in two different limos. We also get Bischoff saying there are no problems.

Tony shows us a clip of the attorney from Nitro (a week ago according to him, which is Tony speak for three days ago) saying that anyone, either WCW or NWO, who violates a WCW policy will be fined and/or suspended. Nick Patrick was suspended at least until tonight to show us that WCW was serious.

Now we see the end of Nitro with the NWO getting in a fight to end the show.

Chris Adams vs. Randy Savage

Adams is a British guy who trained Steve Austin and brought the superkick to America. That's more or less the extent of his major accomplishments but he's in the first match ever on Thunder for some reason. Savage jumps him from behind as we hear about WCW never losing Nitro in the first place. Adams is sent to the outside so Savage can drop him on the barricade. Chris comes back with a whip into the post and gets back in which distracts the referee, allowing Luger to come out and cave in Savage's head with a chair. Adams gets the pin to open the show with a huge upset.

JJ Dillon comes out but we go to a break before anything can happen.

Here are Hogan and Bischoff with something to say. Something I forgot to mention earlier: the set is a big stone wall that had an opening broken into it by some lightning earlier. Shouldn't the show be called WCW Lightning then? Actually Thunder is perfect: it's a bunch of noise with nothing of substance. It's perfect for WCW at this point.

Hogan and Bischoff take forever to get to the ring where Bischoff introduces Hogan as the world champion. Apparently every good looking woman on the beach said that Hogan was the real world champion and tonight we'll see the tape proving it. Hollywood is the only heavyweight champion in the world and he's just too big and too tanned.

Here's JJ again to say that Randy Savage wins the match because of Luger's interference. Luger comes out and rants against JJ because only now is WCW doing anything after a year and a half of the NWO doing whatever they want. He says that WCW is going to band together and do whatever they want. Point for keeping continuity at least.

Louis Spicolli vs. Rick Martel

Louis cranks on the arm to start but is quickly sent to the floor with a clothesline. Back in and a few dropkicks send Spicolli right back to the floor. They get back in again and Spicolli pounds him down as the Flock heads to their seats. Martel fires off a cross body for two and a left hand to the ribs to stagger Louis. Another dropkick misses but Martel punches Spicolli down and hooks the Quebec Crab for the win.

Rating: D+. For a guy who hasn't been around in years, Martel really does look smooth out there. At first I wasn't wild on him coming back as he was just Rick Martel: guy in leather jacket, but they're pushing him as someone with ring experience who can beat guys with relative ease, which is actually working for him.

We get a clip from Starrcade of Hall saying Nash wouldn't be there, earning a beating from Giant in the process. I still don't get why they didn't just have Hall be a replacement as he would be more than adequate to fill in.

Tenzan vs. Ohara

Tenzan is a guy from Japan who is apparently part of the NWO. Tenay talks about how Ohara is like Ray Traylor as he was thrown out of the Japanese NWO and is now a freedom fighter. He pounds away on Tenzan to start but gets slammed down. The fans don't seem pleased as Tenzan hits a spinwheel kick for no cover. Ohara comes back with a clothesline and powerbomb for two but gets caught in a middle rope chop. Tenzan hits a swan dive to end a quick match.

We get another clip from Nitro of the very good Bret and Flair segment where they argue over who is better and say each others' catchphrases.

Ric Flair vs. Chris Jericho

Before the match, Jericho apologizes for his recent behavior and to present Penzer with another new suit jacket. Flair takes him into the corner to start and there's our first WOO. Jericho takes it to the mat with a headlock and a monkey flip sends Flair down. Chris takes too much time though and gets poked in the eye by the master, giving Flair control.

A clothesline puts Flair back down though and there's the Flair Flip in the corner. Jericho dropkicks him off the apron before Flair can run to the top but the Lionsault misses as Flair gets back in. Flair asks for the time and hits a low blow before stomping away a bit. Jericho hits a quick backdrop and a top rope elbow for two but a missile dropkick misses. Figure Four ends Jericho quick.

Rating: C-. This was a glorified squash for Flair but he looked very smooth out there which is a good thing for Jericho. At this point, Jericho was nowhere near what he would become so a match with Flair was one of the best things that could happen to him. That's what veterans are supposed to do and Flair did it more than almost anyone.

Jericho freaks out again post match.

Giant vs. Meng

As Meng comes out, Tony announces Flair vs. Bret for Souled Out and yes, he says it might be the biggest announcement in the history of our sport. Meng hits a clothesline but gets caught in a powerslam to put him down. A backdrop puts Meng down and Giant vs. Nash is announced for the PPV as well. Tony basically says that it'll actually happen this time, which is a pretty pathetic way to push a match. “Remember last time when we said it would happen and it didn't? Well this is nothing like that and we'll actually do what we say!” Meng avoids a splash and fires off some strikes, only to be chokeslammed down for the fast pin.

Goldberg vs. Steve McMichael

It's just Goldberg now. Mongo goes after him on the floor to start and whips Goldberg into the steps before heading in to be stomped. A gorilla press powerslam puts Mongo down and there's a rolling leg lock for good measure. Mongo gets to the rope and goes after the leg as well before hitting a middle rope clothesline for two. McMichael calls for the tombstone but gets caught in the spear and Jackhammer for the pin. Heenan points out that Goldberg is undefeated.

Tag Titles: Steiner Brothers vs. Buff Bagwell/Konnan

Scott and Buff start things off and it's time to pose. Buff takes him down with a hiptoss but Scott drills him with some clothesline and a tiger bomb. Konnan is knocked to the floor as well and it's time to stall. Off to Konnan vs. Rick with Konnan being rammed stomach first into the buckle, only to take Rick down with a clothesline. Back to Buff who jumps right into a belly to belly and it's a double tag to bring Scott back in. Everything breaks down and Rick loads up the bulldog, but Scott goes to the other corner for the Frankensteiner for the pin to retain.

Rating: D+. Nothing to see here but the main idea is the Steiners having issues. That's probably the best move as the Steiners had been a big deal for about nine years at this point, so there wasn't much else that could be done with the team. Scott had been the one WCW wanted to push for years anyway so it really isn't surprising when you think about it.

Here's Larry Zbyszko vs. Eric Bischoff from Starrcade to tick off the fans and fill in time, because if there's one thing WCW doesn't have, it's a roster big enough to fill in a full show.

Bret Hart comes out to be guest referee. There's no pyro, there's no big entrance, there's nothing but generic music and Bret casually walking to the ring. The theory is that he's in the NWO but that's never been confirmed yet.

Eric Bischoff vs. Larry Zbyszko

This should have been Hall vs. Larry, as those two had been talking trash to each other for months. However, Larry only gets Hall if he beats Eric here tonight. If Eric wins, the NWO controls Nitro. Larry is in good shape here considering he's 46 and hasn't wrestled regularly in about five years. Bret checks them for weapons and we're ready to go. Bischoff has the body of a 15 year old girl. He is however a black belt in karate so you can expect a lot of striking.

Bischoff hits a quick shot to Larry's head and immediately celebrates. More strikes follow and Eric heads out to the floor for consultation with Hall. Back in and Larry hits some shots of his own and Eric is scared. Larry goes after him again and Eric hits a spin kick to the side of the head that knocks Larry down. That's enough for Zbyszko and he charges at Eric and takes him down to the mat. Bret admonishes him for pulling Eric's hair, so Larry puts on a sleeper and a headscissors, both of which are broken up for being chokes.

Off to a standing figure four but Eric quickly makes a rope. The damage is done though and Larry goes after the leg. Makes sense against a karate guy. Bret keeps Larry away from Eric and the announcers PANIC. Imagine that: a referee following the rules. Eric is sent into the steps and takes a brief walk around the ring. Back in and Bret blocks a right hand from Larry, allowing Eric to get in a kick to the head. Bischoff fires more kicks with Larry on the ropes, although Bret is fine with them.

Eric is starting to kick himself out though as the kicks are getting weaker and weaker each time. Now he fires rights and lefts in the corner as Larry is just covering up. Eric can barely move now and Larry shakes everything off. A suplex puts Bischoff down and Larry ties him in the Tree of Woe. Hall pulls something out of his pocket and loads it into Eric's shoe, WITH BRET LOOKING RIGHT AT THEM. I mean, he knows what's going on so why not LOOK THE OTHER WAY???

Anyway, Eric kicks him in the head with the loaded foot and the piece of metal goes flying. Bret isn't supposed to see it, despite watching it fly through the air. Eric celebrates, so Bret hits both Bischoff and Hall before putting Hall in the Sharpshooter, which is Bret's version of the Scorpion Deathlock. Larry chokes Eric for a bit and is declared the winner, presumably by DQ.

Rating: F. This was in the second to last spot on the biggest show of the year and featured the boss of the company who has no skill whatsoever in the ring. Larry did fine all things considered, but to waste this spot on this match and to waste BRET HART's in ring debut on this match is absolutely ridiculous in every sense of the word.

Back on Thunder now here's Larry to talk about his match with Hall at Souled Out. Larry talks about how he understands why Hall hates his guts after Larry took Hall so far ten years ago. Now instead of being a world champion, Hall is on the ship of fools heading towards Larry Land. Larry can still bench press 405lbs, drive to the golf course and shoot a 73 and then beat Hall from one side of the ring to the other. He's wrestled in front of royalty around the world and just like he did in 1980, he'll change the NWO at Souled Out. This was actually a pretty decent promo and I remembered it from when I watched this live.

We recap Ray Traylor being thrown out of the NWO and beaten down by Hogan.

Ray Traylor vs. Scott Hall

Traylor shoves him down to start but Hall comes back with the driving shoulder blocks. He slaps Ray in the back of the head and gets sent into the corner and pounding away for his efforts. A corner splash crushes Hall and it's off to a bearhug to waste some time. The referee takes a shot to the eye so we head to the floor for a bit with Hall hitting Traylor in the face with his NWO tag title belt. That's only good for two and the middle rope bulldog gets the same for Hall. Scott heads to the floor to grab a chair but Larry comes out to stop him. The distraction lets Traylor hit the Boss Man Slam for the upset pin.

Rating: D+. The match was barely anything but it did advance the Larry vs. Hall feud so I can't complain all that much. I'm not sure how many people wanted to see Zbyszko vs. Hall but at least it was a feud that had the time to build up for a few months. Speaking of having the time, can we get a match to last five minutes tonight?

Cruiserweight Title: Juventud Guerrera vs. Ultimo Dragon

Dragon is defending. Apparently Scott Steiner has been fined $5000 for hitting the referee during the tag match. The announcers didn't even notice it so it's likely a bit extreme. Feeling out process to start with both guys hitting some quick strikes until Juvy hits a springboard spinwheel kick for two. Guerrera misses a splash in the corner and gets stomped down as we actually talk about the match for a bit. Actually scratch that as it's time to talk about Starrcade a bit more.

Dragon misses a handspring elbow in the corner as the fans think this is boring. Juvy loads up a top rope rana but gets crotched to the floor instead. Dragon hits a moonsault to the floor but injures his knee in the process. They head back in and Dragon hits a release German suplex for two but the top rope rana is countered again. Juvy knocks him to the mat but dives into a dropkick fro Dragon, only to come back with a quick DDT. The Juvy Driver sets up the 450 for the pin and a new champion.

Rating: C. Pretty slow paced stuff here as their high spots weren't connecting all that well. Dragon only held the belt for about eight days here so it's kind of hard to care about the title changing this fast. It's not a bad match but again at just under five minutes we didn't have time to get invested in it at all.

Here's Bret Hart for a chat. Bret says that he's called himself the best there is, was and ever will be and he means it and he's meant it every time. He's accomplished a lot over his career but now he has to prove himself all over again. Bret isn't going to stop calling himself the best ever....and here's Flair with a rebuttal. Ric talks about how he's heard from a thousand people since last week (what's with that? It was three days ago, not last week but people have been saying it all show long) that they want to hear Bret say his catchphrase to Flair's face.

Bret does just that, sending Flair into a rant about how Bret used to sit in the front row with a box of popcorn wanting to be like Ric Flair. Bret has been a five time WWF Champion, but while he was doing that, Flair was wrestling Brody in Singapore for an hour. Not exactly but Flair is on a roll so I can forgive him. Flair yells about how he's been around the world but Bret says he'll have to beat the man to prove that he's the man. Ric says it's not just beating the man, but it's staying the man. More good stuff here, questionable history aside.

Lex Luger vs. Scott Norton

Norton jumps him on the floor to start before heading inside for a clothesline. A backbreaker puts Luger down but a splash misses in the corner. Luger vs. Savage is announced for the PPV and here's Buff for a distraction. Norton hits the shoulder breaker for two but Luger comes back with the forearm. The Rack ends Norton quick in a rare loss for him.

Bagwell gets Racked too as Savage comes in, only to be chased off by Luger as well.

We get the video from Starrcade of the “fast count” and it's just not fast no matter how they look at it.

We get the long awaited footage from Nitro, which shows the referee going down and being replaced by Nick Patrick (who was suspended earlier on Nitro), who counts three on Sting as Hogan rolls him up with a handful of tights. Hogan and Sting keep fighting because that's just what they do, so Sting makes Hogan give up in the Scorpion, which counts now because the original referee never called for the bell, which is the exact same thing that happened at Starrcade but this is almost over so I'm not going to think about it that hard. JJ comes out and gets decked by Bischoff, causing a huge brawl between WCW and the NWO.

Back live again with JJ in the ring for his decision. Before the decision is announced we need Hogan in the ring. Naturally he brings out about five guys (to no music for some reason) for the big meeting. JJ also asks Sting to come to the ring and bring the belt. The official decision is that the title is vacant until they can make an official decision. Sting says JJ has no guts and that Hogan is a dead man, which is the first thing he's said in a year (ignoring what he said at Starrcade of course). Heenan swears this is a victory for the NWO because that's what you do when anything happens in WCW.

US Title: Diamond Dallas Page vs. Kevin Nash

Hogan comes out with Nash (despite both guys being in the ring for the previous segment) as Tony swears that we'll stay with the show no matter what, a mere ten minutes after we saw footage from a match that ended after Nitro went off the air. Page cranks on the arm to start but Nash elbows him down. The champ gets two off a swinging neckbreaker but Nash goes to Page's eternally injured ribs to take over.

A clothesline in the corner has Page down again and the side slam gets two. Nash pounds on him in the corner and sends Page outside for more very slow pounding. Page is sent into the steps as Hogan tells him to give up. Back in and Nash hits Snake Eyes and an elbow drop for two. Page fights out of another Snake Eyes attempt and loads up the Diamond Cutter but Hogan hits him in the ribs for the DQ.

Rating: D+. We were clearly just killing time until the DQ here which is the case in almost all WCW main events anymore. Hogan being out there was kind of surprising as it could have been any WCW goon for the same ending. Also any bets on there being no mention of a fine to Hogan for doing the same thing Luger did earlier?

Post match Giant comes out to break up a Jackknife and brawls with Nash to end the show.

Overall Rating: D+. Take everything that was good about Nitro from this week and throw it out the window. Let's see: short and mostly meaningless matches, the title situation is a mess (and will get messier) and the NWO's problems aren't even mentioned. In other words, the focus is all back on the NWO being some kind of a threat and WCW needing to pull together, which is exactly what it's been since like March. This show wasn't terrible, but man was it frustrating.

Remember to follow me on Twitter @kbreviews and pick up my new book o the History of Starrcade from Amazon at:


  1. I love that Nash gets a US Title shot four days after no-showing Starrcade. Kayfabe-wise, it's just hilarious. In reality, what was so wrong with Nash at Starrcade that wasn't wrong with him on Thunder?

  2. Luger's rant here was one of the best promos he ever did.

  3. kbwrestlingreviewsMay 31, 2013 at 10:54 AM

    They claimed it was a knee injury on commentary but he certainly healed fast. it was 11 days actually.

  4. Hey, get it right: the Sharpshooter is actually Bret's version of the Sharpshooter. You might think I'm picking nits...well, I am, damn it. The Scorpion Deathlock was just gutter trash.

    When my cousin and I got back into wrestling in '97 it was through WCW. It was strange because prior to 1997, I had never watched WCW. I thought it was, I don't know, the minor leagues or something. Anywho, my cousin hated Sting because he had "too many finishers." He thought he would be a better wrestler if he just did one thing well. Those were the days.

    What's the point of that story? I don't really have one.

  5. Your_Favourite_AssholeMay 31, 2013 at 12:58 PM

    is a British guy who trained Steve Austin and brought the superkick
    to America. That's more or less the extent of his major

    HE was a major player in World Class back during its haeyday. There;s life outside WWF and WCW, ya know.

  6. Yeah, there's ECW.

  7. kbwrestlingreviewsMay 31, 2013 at 1:39 PM

    I'm well aware of that. However, I'd hardly call WCCW a major deal by comparison though.

  8. Best thing about '98 WCW was Chris Jericho and his heel turn, BAR NONE!

  9. Your_Favourite_AssholeMay 31, 2013 at 2:21 PM

    THats what Vince wants you to think. Welcome to the hive

  10. You're kidding, right?

  11. kbwrestlingreviewsMay 31, 2013 at 2:35 PM

    If you don't like the hive, I suggest you buzz off.

  12. Adams basically printed money for Fritz Von Erich from '83 through '86. WCCW blew the pants off of virtually any other wrestling programming in the country, much less Texas, during that period from both a creative and talent perspective. Yeah, it was a pretty major deal.

    Anyone that thinks that Adams' only contribution was training Austin and the superkick doesn't know what the hell they're talking about.

  13. kbwrestlingreviewsMay 31, 2013 at 2:55 PM

    I can assure you I know what I'm talking about, as well as a good deal about WCCW. I also know that they were a step or two below some other major promotions, hence me not calling his accomplishments there major.

  14. Dude, WCCW beat SNL in the ratings a few times. That is crazy to think about considering how strong SNL was in the early 80s. If Fritz had gone national around 1983 and his kids stayed alive, they easily would've been the #1 promotion in the US.

  15. Your_Favourite_AssholeMay 31, 2013 at 3:04 PM


    WHEEEEE, I"M A BEE!!!!

  16. Your_Favourite_AssholeMay 31, 2013 at 3:05 PM


    NO, ARM BAR!

  17. Your_Favourite_AssholeMay 31, 2013 at 3:07 PM


  18. kbwrestlingreviewsMay 31, 2013 at 3:09 PM

    That last part is what holds me back on it: if they had gone national. For instance, ECW was an incredibly popular regional company. Once they went national it fell apart. The same is basically being the case with ROH at the moment.

    WCCW was indeed a very exciting promotion and Adams was a big deal there, but without it going national or to a bigger stage, he was pretty much like Kevin Steen: a big fish in a medium sized pond.

  19. kbwrestlingreviewsMay 31, 2013 at 3:23 PM

    I can't. The court order isn't expired yet.

  20. That's the thing though, nobody was going national in 1983. It just wasn't done. You can't hold that against them or against Chris Adams. Working for WCCW and being a top guy around that time was as close as you were going to get. It wasn't an easy spot to attain.

  21. kbwrestlingreviewsMay 31, 2013 at 3:45 PM

    Yeah but he was there until 1986, when companies were going national. By 1985 the WWF was on Saturday Night Live instead of competing against it. As the 1980s went on, WCCW got weaker and weaker and it didn't even make it to 1991. Being a top guy in a regional company for a year or two before the other companies exploded doesn't scream huge deal to me.

  22. By that definition, there's a bunch of guys that don't qualify as a "big deal" then.

  23. kbwrestlingreviewsMay 31, 2013 at 3:51 PM

    I would think being a medium star in a top company is a bigger deal than being one of the top guys in a regional organization. For instance today, Kofi Kingston is certainly a bigger star with more accomplishments than Davey Richards or Kevin Steen.

  24. Davey might win out due to the Japanese deal.

    Though are we talking about wrestling fans or general star power?

  25. kbwrestlingreviewsMay 31, 2013 at 4:02 PM

    Davey's a bad example as I question how much I can call him a wrestler.

    We'll go with just wrestling fans, as there's no wrestling company on the planet that holds a candle to WWE so it's not a fair competition.

  26. Yeah, can't remember but I think Keith made a joke saying that Nash suffered from jobberitus the night before.

  27. My point is that on a global scale, indy guys might be in fact a bigger pond.

    What are Raw's number in Japan and Mexico? Bigger than AAA's and New Japan?

  28. Review WCW Thunder!

    Oh, wait.

  29. kbwrestlingreviewsMay 31, 2013 at 4:51 PM

    I highly doubt it. WWE runs tours in other countries and is on a lot of TV networks in other countries. They've even had Raw in Japan before. It's not like they're unknowns there.

  30. kbwrestlingreviewsMay 31, 2013 at 4:52 PM

    I'd believe Nash more if he didn't do this so often. He did it in TNA and I believe in WWE, although I think the WWE one was due to some movie contract.

  31. I miss those days...

  32. Wccw upper mid carder is a cool career but both things you listed are more important

  33. FWIW according to Bischoff, adding this show was TBS's idea and they just forced it on WCW. He complained in his book about having to write two major shows a week but if he was smarter he'd have just used this show to bounce together random pairings of the bajillion undercard guys they had who could put on great matches, and cap it with a main eventer in a squash match or something low stakes. Could have done a lot toward building new stars and keeping a little more mobility between guys on the card. But then again a lot of guys at WCW didn't want that.

  34. Sure, but what I'm saying is Chris Adams was a top star in one of the top organizations at the time. Nobody was really expanding around 1983. It wasn't until Hogan got to the WWF that things really started taking off.

  35. He still won't review it.

  36. Tenzan is a guy from Japan who is apparently part of the NWO.

    Wrestling expert!

  37. There's nothing quite like Tommy shitting on fond memories. I'm not big on somebody that didn't watch Nitro (and Raw) reviewing them. Honestly, that time period was something you had to experience live.

  38. kbwrestlingreviewsMay 31, 2013 at 6:09 PM

    I did. I watched every episode as they aired.

  39. kbwrestlingreviewsMay 31, 2013 at 6:11 PM

    That's true, but in the grand scheme of things, especially compared to what a lot of the guys in WCW had done at this point, that's pretty minor.

    Here's what it comes down to: what means more to most fans: bringing Austin into wrestling/popularizing the superkick or success in a company that was big roughly thirty years ago?

  40. I'd like to know numbers...

    YO NWA88!

  41. Total bit-player, that Tenzan fella.

  42. This had to be one of the last stops for Bossman in WCW. And probably when they stopped giving a shit about nWo Japan outside of bogus Sting showing up.

  43. I remember being VERY excited for this first Thunder... especially since that Hogan/Sting Nitro match went off the air without a finish, and I would finally get to see what happened. Unfortunately, Northern NY weather kicked in and we got an Ice Storm, which took out our power for the next three weeks. I honestly don't remember watching much WCW after that.

  44. Hey I was in that ice storm! Where did you live? I was/am in Massena (you may have told me all this before and I'm just a forgetful douche.)

  45. I'm sorry, but to blow-off WCCW like it was never popular is just insane.
    In Boston, WCCW TV beat WWF in the ratings for a few years.
    World Class was highly popular in its peak

  46. He's also the guy who Punk stole the Anaconda Vice from.

  47. kbwrestlingreviewsMay 31, 2013 at 9:34 PM

    Indeed it was. It also wasn't as big a deal as WWF or the NWA, which is what I've been saying this entire time.

  48. Perhaps, but you're shitting on his nostalgia, which just isn't allowed.

  49. Actually, I was thinking... if Ryan Murphy reads this he'll chime in. I went to Carthage High School, near Watertown.

  50. Just because you wrestled before 1986, doesn't mean that you were not popular.

  51. kbwrestlingreviewsJune 1, 2013 at 4:59 AM

    Indeed, and if we were talking about one of the Von Erichs I'd have mentioned the time in WCCW. Adams was a step below them, as was everyone else in the promotion.

  52. kbwrestlingreviewsJune 1, 2013 at 5:00 AM

    Oh I know. I'd be chased down with pitchforks and torches if anyone saw what I thought of ECW.

  53. Lol yeah I thought so, but at the end of an 11 hour shift last night I couldn't think straight. Someone else from here lived near me in Malone, too.

  54. In case no one read enough comments about the Chris Adams issue above, here's one more point of view. This is what Tommy said:

    "Adams is a British guy who trained Steve Austin and brought the superkick to America. That's more or less the extent of his major accomplishments but he's in the first match ever on Thunder for some reason."

    Here's what you could have said:

    "Chris Adams was a big star in World Class in the early 80s, but hasn't done anything major for a long time by this point. He essentially worked as a jobber for WCW between 1997 and 1999. Some of his biggest contributions to the wrestling industry were that he trained Steve Austin, and was one of the first wrestlers to popularize the superkick."

    That phrasing gives the exact same information, only uses one more line, and doesn't make you sound like a total asshole for absolutely no reason.

  55. But that's what a good writer would do, Tommy is not. I like him, but he's simply not a good writer.

  56. I like Tommy too but sometimes you have to admit that you were wrong and he never seems to do that. I write on this site as well and trust me, I'm not churning out any masterpieces myself, but instead of being defensive, you have to be willing to accept that you might be wrong. That can involve doing some research whenyou are called out, which can easily be done on the internet by the way. I'm reviewing 1984 WWF stuff and I was born in 1982. I try to be as informative as I can by researching. I also have scans of the Observer from that time and can incorporate those as well. If I do not know something or am basing a statement like the Chris Adams comment by my own thoughts, I try my best no to publish that. Even with the pre-Wrestlemania stuff, I try to ask the readers about stuff that I do not know myself. That always helps educate myself because there are a lot of intelligent fans here.
    Indyjeff6286 had a line about Adams that was thoguht out well. Even a quick line about Adams being well past his glory days of WCCW would have been fine.

  57. Your_Favourite_AssholeJune 1, 2013 at 1:14 PM

    thumbs to the up for givin chris Adams his props. when I read tommy from rugrats's line about adams, i was like all like "dude is the worst kind of wrestling fan that thinks that wrestling suddenly appeared when hulk hogan ran into help bobby backlund'

  58. Your_Favourite_AssholeJune 1, 2013 at 1:16 PM

    and remember that it was all super huge in israel or something, like they talked about in the DVD. kinda historical curiosity, yeah, but still cool to note

  59. Your_Favourite_AssholeJune 1, 2013 at 1:18 PM

    another thing i just thought of- tommy hillfiger mentioned that because they weren;t national and only regional it means that they and the wrestlers there couldnt be big deals. i guess that means that that bruno dude from wwwwwwwf is a chump since at that time hsi company was only in the northweast. or that dusty rhodes wasnt a big deal since he hung around only florida

  60. Your_Favourite_AssholeJune 1, 2013 at 1:20 PM

    just cuase you think something doesnt make it true. i think you've been pretty much out-debated on this one, friend

  61. Your_Favourite_AssholeJune 1, 2013 at 1:20 PM


  62. Your_Favourite_AssholeJune 1, 2013 at 1:21 PM


  63. Your_Favourite_AssholeJune 1, 2013 at 1:22 PM

    does Titus O'Neil count, tho? I mean, it's a fair question

  64. Your_Favourite_AssholeJune 1, 2013 at 1:23 PM


  65. Your_Favourite_AssholeJune 1, 2013 at 1:23 PM

    that's ok, we question how much we can call you a writer


  67. kbwrestlingreviewsJune 1, 2013 at 1:34 PM

    How exactly does it make me sound like that? I'm not going to write a biography for a guy who is there for a fluke win over Savage.

  68. kbwrestlingreviewsJune 1, 2013 at 1:35 PM

    Terrible and inaccurate? Really? It may have been disagreed with but I'd hardly say it was terrible.

  69. kbwrestlingreviewsJune 1, 2013 at 1:36 PM

    Gee thanks for the vote of confidence.

    Tell you what: from now on, I'll write a full biography of everyone I mention, as apparently a guy who is a jobber at this point is enough to warrant all these headaches.

  70. I'm just being honest. I'm not sure what you want me to tell you.

  71. kbwrestlingreviewsJune 1, 2013 at 1:48 PM

    Well to begin with what is so terrible about me? And believe me: I know there's quite a bit.

    Here's the summation of all this argument: it's one line about a guy that hadn't been relevant in years at this point, and really isn't a big deal in wrestling history. Did I shortchange him? yeah I likely did. However, don't you think it's a bit absurd to have people call me terrible and an idiot because I didn't list additional information about a guy who was here as a jobber? Isn't that just a bit excessive?

  72. I didn't call you an idiot (would never do that), nor did I say you were terrible or bad person in any way. I don't think you're a good writer, but that could be on me and the style I prefer when I read. I don't think you contextualize the stuff you review enough and I find your use of language to be "clunky". These are my opinions, since you asked.

  73. kbwrestlingreviewsJune 1, 2013 at 1:56 PM

    That wasn't directed at you. It's stuff that's been said earlier in other comments.

    Could you define clunky?

    I have no problem with criticism. I have a problem when people complain about stuff that makes little to no difference at all and blast whatever else I say off those few things. For instance this entire review has been called horrible because of that one line, or being told i have no idea what I'm talking about because I use letters instead of stars. That's the kind of criticism I'm going to ignore. Stuff like what you said I appreciate though.

  74. I'm no writer, so just putting yourself out there is pretty brave, specially since you have to put up with us dolts. I do read a lot though, so maybe I can give you an example. Again though, this could just be my personal taste in what I like in reviews.

    "Due to the success of 1997, WCW decided to add another show to it's TV schedule so here's their new idea." - This is a good example of what I would describe as clunky or unnecessary sentences. "so here's their new idea" is completely useless and when read in conjunction with the next sentence, it comes across as amateur. I find the majority of your review uses too many useless words or sentences. I would try to be more contrite and interject more of your personality. Just my opinion.

    Hope that helps.

  75. kbwrestlingreviewsJune 1, 2013 at 2:04 PM

    Noted. That likely comes from writing them as I watch the shows and not having time to think them out.

  76. Do you proof your review before posting? I know you churn out a lot of material, but your name is on the material and it reflects back on you, so even if you are tight on time...I would consider it.

  77. kbwrestlingreviewsJune 1, 2013 at 2:11 PM

    Not usually although I should. I know there are errors in there that shouldn't be.

  78. You don't have to write a biography. You don't have to say anything about Adams, but what you did choose to say about him made it sound like you were demeaning him and minimizing his contributions to the industry. I don't think you intended to do that, but some people saw it that way. People who had fond memories of Adams' wrestling career apparently didn't care for your portrayal and chose to speak up about it, at which point you chose to respond.

    You could have simply said something to the effect of, "I didn't mean for it to come off that way, I was just intending to say that by 1998 Adams had not been relevant in a very long time." It's not even an apology, just a clarification, and maybe an attempt to somewhat assuage the degree to which you had clearly pissed off many of your readers.

    Instead you say, "I'm well aware of that. However, I'd hardly call WCCW a major deal by comparison though." The first sentence is fine, the second seems entirely pointless and irrelevant. The comment you were replying to said nothing about WCCW being a big deal compared to anything else.

  79. And hey, while I'm here, since you asked for specific issues with your writing style, here's one:

    "Something I forgot to mention earlier: the set is a big stone wall that had an opening broken into it by some lightning earlier."

    You know, don't you, that you can actually time travel back to earlier in the piece you are writing and edit in things that you forgot to say earlier? I can't cite specific examples, but I feel like I see things like this a lot in your posts, saying that you forgot to say something earlier, and it just seems like a bizarre choice to me. Though I guess your comment that you don't proofread your articles before posting should also tell me that it's pretty unlikely that you'll clean up things like the one I mentioned.

  80. kbwrestlingreviewsJune 1, 2013 at 2:30 PM

    This is very true. However, the first comment was basically saying I had no idea what I was talking about. The rest of it was me attempting to explain my point and then debate later points brought up. The comment that I was replying to said there's wrestling outside of WWF and WCW, which I said wasn't major, which was what started this whole thing.

    I likely should have let it go though.

  81. kbwrestlingreviewsJune 1, 2013 at 2:31 PM

    Actually I will be trying to edit stuff like that, primarily because people pointed it out to me instead of insulting me and saying I can't write/have no idea what I'm talking about etc.


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