Wrestling is a world with some crazy characters. With hindsight always being 20/20 I was wondering if you could give your quick current thoughts/opinions on the following people (attached a question or two for some of them).
- Dixie Carter
Obviously loves what she's doing, but she's in way over her head and she's already been snowed by Hogan and Bischoff and they're pretty much in there now like that thing in Neo's stomach in the first Matrix.
- Vince McMahon: I think I've read all your rants and don't ever recall seeing a good anti or pro VKM ramble outside maybe something about his booking. Do you respect him for the most part? Think his legacy and importance have been underrated, overrated? Etc...
History is written by the victors and he's the victor, so good or bad he'll be the one in control of wrestling's history fair and square.
- Shane McMahon: he seemed like a normal dude who's the big loser in the Steph/HHH thing. Would you rather Shane or the HHH/Steph team if you had a wrestling company to run?
Everything I've ever read about Shane says that he just wasn't the guy to be running the company. He seems much happier doing what he's doing now, without dealing with the bullshit.
-Dave Meltzer/Wade Keller: interested since you have a writing/wrestling background also. Do you prefer one over the other? Do you find one to be more credible?
I've been a subscriber of the Observer since before the Attitude era and signed up for the online version practically on day one.
-Barack Obama: just curious
I barely even watch the news. He's the President and something about health care is all I know about him.
-Attitude Era: do you look back at it in fondness or like that bar slut you nailed and didn't want your friends to see leaving your house the next morning?
From 98-2002 we would have a Wrestlemania viewing party and the place would be PACKED. It was a good time to be a fan, even if the product itself was technically terrible.
-John Cena:
He's OK.
"From 98-2002 we would have a Wrestlemania viewing party and the place would be PACKED. It was a good time to be a fan, even if the product itself was technically terrible."
ReplyDeleteBut it was only technically terrible for half that time period - Rumble 2000 to WM17 is probably the greatest period of WWF/E wrestling ever.
And whilst it's much maligned - I quite liked the Invasion era - and it had some great matches. I started falling out of love in 2002 though.
"I barely even watch the news. He's the President and something about health care is all I know about him."
Like you, I don't know enough about American politics to judge Obama. One thing that will always stick with me is my trip to New York in 2010.
We went to the Tenament Museum and the guide asked the group what they thought about health care. The entire group looked at me and my girlfriend like we were aliens when we said that the British NHS is actually a good thing. It felt very weird.
Threadjack: I know it's a little early to jack the thread, but has anyone else read Bob Holly's book? Finished it yesterday and it's really quite good.
ReplyDelete"From 98-2002 we would have a Wrestlemania viewing party and the place would be PACKED. It was a good time to be a fan, even if the product itself was technically terrible." Ain't that the truth? Wrestlemania/PPV parties were SO MUCH FUN back then. I still get a little group together every year for Mania but the atmosphere and charm isn't the same as it used to be. Probably helped that I was a teenager at the time though.
ReplyDelete"Rumble 2000 to WM17 is probably the greatest period of WWF/E wrestling ever."
ReplyDeleteIn terms of technical wrestling? You'd put it ahead of 93-97? Almost every one of their main-eventers in that period could work, even the giants.
What about the death panels? You guys obviously fear death panels right?
ReplyDelete"The entire group looked at me and my girlfriend like we were aliens when we said that the British NHS is actually a good thing. It felt very weird."
ReplyDeleteThat's because the conservatives that control the message here in the states have spun every universal healthcare system as something that will kill you while you wait in line for an aspirin, and will bankrupt the country and take everyone's job away from them.
Am I the only one who at first, for a second, thought the email was from Dixie Carter herself? Because the guy hadn't written anything next to her name, so it looked like a signature. I thought for a second Dixie wanted Scott to poll the BoD on some "do you like this? yes/no?". We'd then give our heartfelt responses, Dixie would say we saved iMPACT wrestling, at which point a lawyer would immediately ask us to sign something stating we didn't save iMPACT wrestling. Oh, and cultstatus would really like the speedo-man.
ReplyDeleteSarah Palin?
ReplyDeleteAgreed. 2002 was the first time in my life where I ever stopped watching wrestling. It's been a rocky time ever since,
ReplyDeleteYou betcha!
ReplyDeleteRead it myself. I think it was Meltzer who said that, whether you agree with it or not, you at least get the sense that Holly is telling it to you straight and doesn't mind who he pisses off if you have a problem with it. He also doesn't come off as just some sorry has-been talent with an axe to grind. Just a "this is the way it went" type of narrative.
ReplyDeleteThe one thing that had me confused as hell was his statement that he was first pegged as Umaga's opponent at WM23. That *can't* be true. I'm guessing for whatever reason Bob was told that and he got punked later.
Funny this came up. I just watched that NBC Wrestlemania special last night that featured Rock vs. Cena II. I didn't buy WM and hadn't seen the match until now. Talk about a predictable snooze-fest. The story they told of Cena being on a losing slide in his life since last year's loss was fucking terrible. The best part was Cena's divorce having some connection to his loss to Rock last year as well.
ReplyDeleteAlmost unquestionably better.
ReplyDeleteYou are kidding, right?
ReplyDeleteSame here, it looked like it was signed "Dixie Carter" and it really didn't shock me the way you'd think it would - her emailing to chat with the Blog seems right up her alley.
ReplyDeleteYeah. That was the feeling I got. In hindsight, I should've made a stronger argument for the NHS - but I was so weirded out.
ReplyDeleteFact of the matter is this: I smashed up 3 of my teeth (admittedly, through my own stupidity) back in 2005. An NHS dentist fixed them well for what would've been 60 bucks. That's pretty much the only time I've used the health service here - but I'm sure that as I get older, I'll need it more.
However, by the time I'm older, I suspect our government will have killed what I believe is a flawed, but fantastic institution.
Nitro Parties!
ReplyDeleteActually, the other weird thing that happened during that visit, was that the tour guide asked 'Who here is Irish? (It was the week of St Patrick's Day)
ReplyDeleteEveryone's hand went up, apart from mine.
I said that I'm an eighth Irish and realised I was probably more Irish than everyone there. I don't quite understand this need to cling on to something that you're not - if you were born in America and your folks were born in America - you haven't got a real claim on being Irish.
Oh, it's definitely good. I'll add Wade Keller's perspective on it as well as he kept on saying this is a good history book. It's something people should read if they want to get a perspective of someone who didn't really have a group or clique through the years. It's unfiltered and frank.
ReplyDeleteAll of the "DONT TOUCH MY HEALTHCARE" lunatics are a special kind of stupid and generally have no clue how their insurance works.
ReplyDeleteI work in mental health and so many people assume that if you have the benefit available, then they will automatically cover what you want. Little do they know, insurance companies try to do everything in their power to not pay for any services.
For instance, Beacon Health Strategies, one of the absolute worst insurance companies I have ever seem will refer patients to my work then after we assess them, deny their insurance approval. Just think what they do in medical situations .
Yeah - I didn't believe that either.
ReplyDeleteBut apart from that, the book was more or less 'this is what happened and my opinion on it'. What really made me quite like the book was the feel-good ending (which shouldn't be spoiled) when he discovered Facebook.
I didn't see that coming.
Perhaps when TNA goes down, Scott'll bring her on board for creating the Smackdown live thread.
ReplyDeleteI actually started that last week. In one week, comments were increased from 7 to 45. SMASHING SUCCESS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
ReplyDeleteOne of the two careers I have/have had is as a professional political operative... I have had the opportunity too see some of the absolute best qualities a human being can produce... and some of the very worst attitudes people are capable of harboring. Of all of the issues I have talked to voters and volunteers about absolutely nothing... not gun rights, abortion, war or anything else have brought out the vitriol that the health care discussion that started in 2009 in the states has... it has completely hijacked the President's agenda and legacy, and almost no one I have spoken to from Rhodes Scholars Poli Sci professors, down to the guy that sweeps up at the movie theater down the street has any idea what they are talking about and therefore have filled in the gaps with the hate and paranoia that are fueled by conservative political action committees and right wing media among others. In the mean time people are dying, or going broke, or both because they have to put concern for their finances above concern for their health. I have no idea to this day why this is even a debate... let alone one of the nastiest most divisive issue of the modern political era... it always makes me feel better when I hear someone from Canada or one of the European countries tell me what those of us who don't listen to the rhetoric already know about their healthcare system... and what our could, and should be.
ReplyDelete/rant
Like others have said, lumping the entire "Attitude Era" in as one entity is wrong. I totally agree with Scott's point about it being an amazing time to be a fan; that's why I've said before it's missing the point to wonder whether it holds up or was objectively good. It was, in its time, unmissable.
ReplyDeleteThat's mostly because the magneticism of main eventers/characters like Austin and McMahon, of course, as well as Rock, Foley, and eventually HHH. Even characters who could've easily been uninteresting like Taker and Kane, you cared about them because of their involvement in the greatest story wrestling has ever told: Austin v. McMahon.
Beyond that, give Russo credit on this: everyone had something to do. So many would-be forgettable midcarders were memorable, even if for idiotic reasons. (13 years after the fact, we're still chanting "Sexual Chocolate" at Mark Henry.)
But yeah, the line of demarcation when it actually became an amazing all-around product came somewhere between the fall of '99 and Royal Rumble 2000. And really, it wasn't so much a line as a series of events, starting on my 16th birthday, the debut of Jericho. Continuing:
-The departure of Russo
-The debut of Kurt Angle
-The E&C v. Hardys ladder match
-The addition of the Dudleys
-The dogged efforts, which proved to be wildly successful, to establish HHH as a modern-day Flair
-Austin's injury, forcing Rock into the top face spot and expediting his rise to megastardom, both in wild popularity and as a top-flight in-ring worker
-The addition of the Radicalz
The Russo departure took storylines in a more sensible direction. The rapid improvements of HHH and Rock allowed them to not only survive, but thrive in Austin's absence. (And would make Austin v. both of them enormous matches when he returned.) The ascension of the Hardys and E&C, coupled with the addition of the Dudleys, made the tag division a major strength for the first time in a long time.
And most importantly, the aggregate talent additions from August '99 to Febuary '00 gave them the deepest roster they'd ever had to that point: fresh faces that were mostly great workers (several all-time greats, really) invigorated the midcard and added fresh faces to the main event scene. (This had the double bonus of meaning guys like a not-ready Edge, Big Show, Test and others weren't ever really force-fed to us as top guys.)
There were obviously some great workers in that era but to compare it to '99-'01....I mean, come on.
ReplyDeleteI think it has more to do with the president being black than anything else.
ReplyDeleteIt's like I've always said, if you want results, you don't payless, you Bayless, baby!
ReplyDeleteReally, always?
ReplyDeleteI don't think so. Bill Clinton tried to change health care and got even less results. Gun control would've turned out just as bad too. Being black doesn't help, but the real sin is being 'liberal'.
ReplyDeleteI don't know. I can't see them voting to repeal a white president's bill 40 times. Plus the vitriol of the Tea Party just smacks of latent racism to me.
ReplyDeleteThe United States was split into very ethnic neighborhoods when the big wave of immigrants first came over. A lot of this ethnic pride still endures several generations among many "white" Americans.
ReplyDeleteRumble 2000 - Mania 17 was amazing, 93-97 had its moments (HBK, Bret Hart) but that era just didn't compare.
ReplyDeleteI know Vince Jr loves his old man, he gets teary eyed every time he mentions him in a WWE Doc but i still think Vince tries to downplay his role in history due to him not wanting to seem like a daddy's boy who inherited (Bought) his father's company. That's probably one of the reasons the WWE's 50th Anniversary this year has been completely ignored. Regardless Vince deserves all his accolades because at the end of the day he won! He won by being a bastard and having some great luck but he put it all on the line at least a couple of times and walked out the victor.
ReplyDeleteYou are both right to a degree. "Liberal" is one of the most toxic words in modern American politics and to be painted as liberal as President Obama has, and the PPAACA (Obamacare) have (despite the lase being a conservative idea to begin with) is a death sentence... having said that if, say John Kerry had gotten elected and pushed the same agenda in the same way I don't think he would have earned the level of hate that President Obama has... and to say that his race has nothing to do with it is naive at best and dishonest at worst.
ReplyDeleteIf we play our cards right we might make some money here - I'm sure I could get Dixie to pay me $80,000 a year to make Bret Hart jokes.
ReplyDeleteGuys: business may have been shit during the New Generation era, but in-ring, it was the best product Vince ever had.
ReplyDeleteI wonder how Cena's going to be remember 20, 30 years from now. He's been on top for almost 10 years, he's had some classic matches, but he's a guy who many of us have pretty much been waiting out for most of his run. We still fondly remember Savage, Hogan, Flair, Sting, Hart, Michaels, nWo, Austin, Rock - but will we care more about the Cena era down the road than we do at the time? I don't take the guy seriously at all - I guess technically he's an all time great but to me he's just a guy who's there now and hopefully will go away eventually.
ReplyDeleteRusso's role in everything is so down played it's unbelievable. He had a major role in shaping the Attitude Era.
ReplyDeleteHe could probably change his legacy for the better if he does go a little more heelish while keeping his character relatively the same. It would keep his body of work more linear (if that makes sense) and help fans look more fondly at his career because...
ReplyDeleteLet's face it: the majority of Cena's greatest moments have come when he was playing a heel. We appreciate the great moments he had when he did play a heel or played himself in a hostile atmosphere. 2003, WM22, One Night Stand 2006, MITB 2011, TLC 2012.
If he doesn't change, he will not be remembered as an all-time great. A genetic freak, a cyborg who never tires in and out of the ring? Yes. Someone who can churn out about 3 4-star matches a year? Yes. But not somebody who had legendary moments.
Sad news. Art Donovan has died. I'm sure his heaven is a bunch of giant men around with no scale and an angel who can tell him how much they all weigh.
ReplyDeleteThreadjack!
ReplyDeletehttp://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap1000000226150/article/art-donovan-pro-football-hall-of-famer-dies-at-88
I'm a huge football fan (my favorite team is a mystery!) but my only knowledge of the man comes from his infamous announcing gig at KOTR 94. This may seem off-color but I'd give anything for a friend of his to be a pallbearer and when lifting the casket say "Hey Randy, how much does dat fella weigh!?!"
"- Vince McMahon: I think I've read all your rants and don't ever recall seeing a good anti or pro VKM ramble outside maybe something about his booking. Do you respect him for the most part? Think his legacy and importance have been underrated, overrated? Etc...
ReplyDeleteHistory is written by the victors and he's the victor, so good or bad he'll be the one in control of wrestling's history fair and square."
With all due respect (and trust me, there's a lot there), that isn't really answering his question.
Nostalgia is always a bitch. For what he's accomplished and how long he's been on top, I think it would be impossible to regard him with extreme venom in the future.
ReplyDeleteWhether we like him or hate him he's been involved in so many classic matches/angles well almost HAVE to look back at him with fondness.
Vince is one of the most interesting guys to me ever. He's not easily defined, and has had so many ups and downs that its almost impossible to create a clear legacy for him.
ReplyDeleteFor every pro, there's a con.
Yea thru all the bullshit, i think 20 years from now his positives will shine more for whatever reason
ReplyDeleteWithout question.
ReplyDeleteThe problem is his WCW run was an unmitigated disaster, and coincidentally or not- and while there were lots of factors, his departure was one of them- the Attitude Era becoming an objectively great all-around product instead of an unmissable train wreck built around arguably the two greatest characters ever (Austin and Vince) coincided kinda exactly with when he left.
I'm am ER doctor with 6 years of med school and a finance undergraduate degree. The "death panel" is the biggest fear propoganda entity I've ever seen, it was actually brilliant by Palin.
ReplyDeleteSomething like 60-75% of all Medicare costs go towards end of life treatments that prolong a patients life maybe 12-24 months. Baracks plan was to set up a panel to determine if these end of life procedures are cost effective based on life expentency, future quality of life, etc. it was a reasonable, well thought out mechanism to try and regulate the excessive medical costs that either have very low success rates or would prolong a terminally ill patients life a few extra months.
Because the matches are mostly great, is the reason.
ReplyDeleteCena's rarely- not never, but rarely- been a favorite of mine. But he's taken part in a large percentage of WWE matches from 2005-present I've rewatched multiple times: Punk, the first Rock match, HBK, HHH, RVD, Edge, even the Big Show match at WMXX (one of my favorite bad matches; so odd to see a 'smart' crowd go nuts for Cena in retrospect).
Granted, most of us have cheered against him in those matches. But they were still classics. I think history will be kinder to him than we might realize right now.
He hasn't been successful at any other company despite being given numerous opportunities, a ton of time to do so, and a wealth of talent. His biggest contribution was making sure all the midcard acts had a character and something going on, but I think the Attitude Era was going to be successful regardless due to Austin and McMahon.
ReplyDeleteIt was good, but in no way was it the best. For every Bret and Shawn, you had Mantaur and Aldo.
ReplyDeleteYou don't think he could retire tomorrow and be regarded as an all-time great?
ReplyDeleteI thought of this last night when I was kinda baked and rewatching MitB:
ReplyDeleteThe brilliance of what Cena's character has become? He's the "modern athlete."
He's the image-obsessed megastar- though he'll go to great pains to try to convince us he's not- who shows just enough chinks in the armor that a good chunk of fans suspect he's a total fraud or a phony, right or wrong. Obsessed with looking like a positive role model for marketing reasons, but is accused of infidelity and steroid usage.
Not to give them too much credit, because I think it happened that way organically with the way the fans reacted to John Cena, Megaface, rather than brilliantly detailed scheme to turn him into this subtle meta character.
So I think the reason he won't turn heel for years is obvious: as far as WWE is concerned, he's already the No. 1 heel to the people who want him to be. And to those who choose to believe in the legitimacy of his superheroic feats and buy into the hero they're presented? They'll get that presented to him and just trust he won't be a phony.
Basically, he's a more likable (but still not entirely likable) version of Alex Rodriguez.
"That's the guy that I picked to win"
ReplyDeleteI'm trying to picture a likeable A-Rod but all I keep getting is a 404 error.
ReplyDeleteBut you can make an argument like that about any period. Besides, the post-Hogan, pre-Attitude era had a lot of other quality workers too. It wasn't just Bret and Shawn.
ReplyDeleteYou can rattle off a list 20-30 names long of great workers from 2000 alone without thinking. Can you even get to 15 in the New Generation era? After the obvious (Bret, Shawn, Razor, Kid, Owen), it gets difficult.
ReplyDelete"Who's dis guy, Gorilla?"
ReplyDeleteI used to have GLOW watching viewing parties.. well if my left hand and a bottle of lotion count as household guests..
ReplyDelete"The ref is stealing the belt!!! Where is he going with the belt?"
ReplyDeleteOh yeah, nothing says "great moment" like wearing a baggy jersey and rapping about jerking off while tossing a bag of peanuts at someone and yelling "DEEEEEEEEZ NUUUUUUUTS!" like the little kid in the Chappelle's Show "Trading Spouses" sketch.
ReplyDeleteAbsolutely. His stuff with Punk alone has his legacy in my good graces.
ReplyDeleteEasily, what a dodge!!!
ReplyDeleteDepends on whether he hangs around long enough to marry one of Stephanie's kids.
ReplyDeleteI think it's a 'he's a complicated fellow, but obviously he's doing something right.'
ReplyDeleteI thought Vince Sr. Married his mother?
ReplyDeleteThey don't, but we all thank you for letting us know you masturbate.
ReplyDeleteWell played. But I think it works, because A-Rod was extremely likable in Seattle, still likable in Texas but with cracks starting to show. I mean, you can't fault a guy for taking a $252M contract, especially when he was playing like one of the 3-4 best players ever and giving them their money's worth, but saying winning is your biggest goal while your contract is keeping your team from doing that, that's gonna rub people the wrong way. So think of Cena as the 2004-09 Yankees A-Rod. Largely hated, considered a phony by many, but still fairly enormously popular because no matter how polarizing, he was fucking awesome.
ReplyDeleteI think his eventual heel turn would be well-served by following that narrative, something scandalous that he won't take responsibility for as he continues to try to present himself in the same saintly light.
Yeah, but I think the person was more asking for Scott's own personal opinion on Vince.
ReplyDeleteI would have asked about Eric Bischoff.
ReplyDeleteAnd the only one who understands him is his woman....
ReplyDeleteHonestly? No. When you (the general "you") look back at the great ones, you normally have at least a handful of moments you can look back on with awe. I'm just not sure Cena has those. The MITB 2011 moment? I think CM Punk. The April Raw from 2007 when he wrestled for almost an hour? I think Shawn Michaels; that's his moment. One Night Stand 2006? RVD's moment. He is essentially the best b-side to others' greatest hits.
ReplyDeleteHe really hasn't owned his own moment. And if he has, there have been very few (JBL, Edge in the late summer of 2006, and his matches with Batista if they qualify as legendary in any way).
Of course, I'm not saying he's a bad wrestler. He has hovered around greatness in that department. But really... what do we have to be nostalgic about when it comes to Cena?
Great points and a superb comparison. But here's the thing: I still don't think people will view A-Rod in the same light as they do other baseball legends despite his HOF numbers. Similarly, I don't think people will view Cena in the same light as they do Savage, Flair, Bret, HBK, Taker, and even Hogan. For as good as he is, there have been no feelgood moments for Cena that have resonated with the vast majority of the fanbase (maybe about 50% of the fanbase).
ReplyDeleteAs I said earlier in the thread, none of the great moments he's been involved in have been Cena's alone. He is either the b-side or the villain for his greatest matches, and I don't look fondly back at his role during the matches (case in point: I'm still pulling for Punk when re-watching the MitB 2011 match rather than just appreciating both sides). I don't think feelings of nostalgia will factor in. I seriously have no idea how I'm going to look back at this guy in 10 years. He had the ability and savvy to be so much more.
I'm not saying for him to turn heel and act like he used to be. The pandering douche he is now is just a tweak or two away from being a heel with 3/4 of the audience instead of the 1/2 that currently despises him now.
ReplyDeleteHis act as a heel went over so big they had no choice but to turn him face, so don't go knocking what he did in 2003. His feud with Lesnar back then was pretty darn cool, at the very least.
after watching tonights ep of total divas, i would not want to know some of those vapid fuckers in real life
ReplyDeleteand that includes cena
dbry, jojo, naomi, and jimmy uso seem down to earth. verdict is still out on nattie
after seeing his house and then seeing how he reacted to dbry's house, it's so good to know that cena's kept his humility
/sarcasm
and damn that bit with road dogg couldnt have been more staged 'you know you guys are playing the villains tonight. how about you guys use that... twin magic that youve been doing'
eva marie, fuck you you lying gold digger. lol at you thinking that youve found your true love after 2 months of dating
cameron, fuck you you ungrateful brat. how ya gonna play sandra like that?!
Hopefully Steph didn't start roiding up until after she had Aurora.
ReplyDeleteIt's true that Cena, as good/great as he is, doesn't have too many "moments" of his own. A lot of the great moments/matches he was part of involved the other guy going over (Edge, RVD, Shawn, Punk) or at the very least being more the focus, like you said. I can only think of a few great Cena-centric moments:
ReplyDelete1) Winning the US title at WrestleMania XX
2) Winning the WWE Championship for the first time at WrestleMania 21
3) Standing triumphantly atop a truck at JD 2005 after defeating JBL
4) His WrestleMania 22 match with HHH and the insanely hot Chicago crowd
5) Choking out Umaga with the ring rope
6) His Royal Rumble return and win
7) His WrestleMania 28 match with The Rock
There are probably more, but these are some off the top of my head, and many of them are good rather than great.
WrestleMania 20 US title win. The crowd was hugely pro-Cena, and his two FUs on the Big Show got great pops.
ReplyDeleteIt was a highlight moment for him on the way to becoming JOHN CENA, and crowd was hot [but it's MSG, they're hot for everything], but like his WM21 win, I only remember it because he won, because the actual match was shit. He had a couple of good matches and memorable promos, but for me, he never really elevated himself until he was given the torch post-WM21. I was just never fond of the young PaRappa Cena, but I think his stuff with JBL, esp. the I Quit match, was what turned it around for me.
ReplyDelete#s 4, 6, and 7 might have asterisks next to them, too. He was soundly booed during the matches with HHH and Rock. They were memorable but they weren't really his moments where we all looked at it and said, "Thank God for John Cena." Also, people went nuts for him in RR 2008 when he arrived but were kinda "meh" by the time he won.
ReplyDeleteRazor...great? Good yeah, but great?
ReplyDeleteWho did he ever carry?
Hey, if it was you who sent the email, JUST ADMIT IT!!!
ReplyDelete...I don't know what came over me.
I work for a phone relay service at the moment, so I listen in on a number of calls which emanate from middle aged to elderly southern and mid-western Americans. The number of times I've heard Obama referred to as a dictator or compared to Hitler is astounding. My favorite thing is when people slander the president by calling him by his full name with an emphasis on the middle portion: Barack HUSSEIN Obama. Basically anyone who takes this approach is probably a strong candidate for biggest idiot ever.
ReplyDeleteOh, if I sent the letter, people would know, because I'm one of those dudes who's all, "Scott answered ME! Me, not you! I'm clearly the biggest draw in this blog!" With no discernible proof of my ability beyond that one accomplishment.
ReplyDeleteI'd essentially be the Kevin Nash of this place, taking reaction and extrapolating that everyone wants me on top for a program with cultstatus.
John Cena's pool is bigger than my entire place!
ReplyDeleteIf he's smart he'll never marry Nikki, otherwise it'll be her pool in another 10 years.
I think he'll be remembered sort of like Bob Backlund is today.
ReplyDeleteIt was a good act in 2003. But have you watched any footage of Cena's white rapper gimmick lately? It hasn't aged well. At all...
ReplyDeleteThe Royal Rumble one is always hilarious to me, because you can hear the MSG smarks first marking out like crazy, and then realizing that they should be booing the guy.
ReplyDeleteI think the matches with Trips and Rocky are worthy of inclusion because even though the crowds were booing Cena like crazy in both matches (the WrestleMania 22 one especially), it did feel like a big moment for both HHH/Rocky AND Cena. Sort of like Rock/Hogan even though Rocky was being booed. Compare that to the MITB match which, awesome as it was (and with Cena doing most of the heavy lifting IMO) felt more like Punk's moment solely.
His white rapper gimmick is barely a thing anymore. It mostly manifests itself in Cena's endless line of oversized, bright-colored shirts and occasional accent shifts (depending on which town Cena's in).
ReplyDeleteAs much as I like Scott Hall, I think even calling Razor Ramon a "good" worker is a bit of a stretch too.
ReplyDeleteYeah, but I meant more that the old footage of Cena at the height of his rapper gimmick seems really lame now.
ReplyDeleteWell...are you not good if you only have good matches with your friends or when you're going over?
ReplyDeleteAnd Scott Hall in the nWo was pretty mediocre.
Wait a second.....you talked to Cody Rhodes and Damien Sandow??? o_O
ReplyDeleteHow much did he weigh?
ReplyDeleteHistory will be very kind to John Cena (from a smark perspective I mean). People will watch his career through the prism of Youtube and will see a guy who had tons of great matches, and was involved in some great moments. All the tedium of sitting through 10 years of it, week after week, will be forgotten.
ReplyDeleteI've been online since early 2004. *Every* year the tone of the IWC is overwhelmingly negative re: the state of the WWE. The only time I remember everybody saying the product was great was the day after MitB 11 (and that goodwill died quick). But when we have our conversations today about the quality of years past you hear much more positivity. "2008/2007/2005/etc was awesome!" We weed out the mundane/boring parts and leave ourselves only a "Greatest Hits" condensed version in our heads. Something had to have been VERY bad to still register with us today. It'll be the same with Cena.
Also, disagree with your "no great moments" comment about Cena. I'd say the surprise Rumble return of 2008 was a great moment that ALL fans reacted positively to. Listen to MSG, they lose their shit when his music hits, then remember "oh shit, we're supposed to hate this guy" and the boos come. Right after the ppv the general consensus was that the reveal was great since nobody saw it coming.
ReplyDeleteAnd re: great moments belonging to his opponent not him, again disagree. ONS w/ RVD, Mitb11 w/ Punk, Brock's return, etc. None of those moments would've meant as much if you subbed out John Cena and replaced him with ANY other wrestler. MitB would not have been as great if it had been Punk vs Randy Orton. Ditto RVD vs Kurt Angle at ONS.
Does that make Fuj the Hollywood Hogan?
ReplyDeleteYou're Welcome
ReplyDeleteApparently it's still real to you dammit!
ReplyDeleteI must admit I thought the same thing.
ReplyDeleteThe Radicalz coming over is what made the midcard not suck anymore, which was a direct result of Russo getting fired in WCW. There were so damn fine matches in 97-98 WWE, 1999 was the worst workrate year of the era, but much of that had to do with injuries and a weak midcard.
ReplyDeleteI have a soft enough spot for him to call him great (especially for his size), but I wouldn't argue with anyone who disagreed.
ReplyDeleteBut I don't think I'd recognize you in an airport...
ReplyDeleteI challenge to name 30 great workers from any WWF/E roster in any year, include 2000.
ReplyDeleteAs for the New Generation era, remember: not every great worker is small. But just in terms of small- to medium-sized guys, that era also had Luger, Mero, Lawler, Backlund, Jarrett, Hakushi, Bulldog, Goldust, and Ron Simmons, and a bit of Piper and Perfect; plus, it saw the debuts of Austin, Mankind, and Triple H. Yes, those three peaked later, but they had some of their best matches before the Attitude Era began.
Reflecting back on this, it's honestly an overstatement to call a lot of the guys you listed and those I would list as 'great' workers, so let's downgrade this to solid workers. Because Luger, Lawler, Jarrett, Goldust, Simmons, Piper, and HHH don't belong on a list of great workers from '93-'97. And even Perfect is a maybe considering he wasn't around much past KotR '93.
ReplyDeleteAustin, HHH, Rock, Angle, Foley, Jericho, Benoit, Malenko, Eddy, Edge, Christian, X-Pac, Tazz, Venis, Jeff Hardy, Matt Hardy, D-Von, Bubba, Taka, Funaki, Al Snow, Essa Rios, Hardcore Holly, Crash, Billy Gunn, Road Dogg, Kane, Taker, Saturn, Scotty 2 Hotty, Grandmaster Sexay, Rikishi, Test, D'Lo, Bulldog, Simmons, Big Show, Stevie Richards, Steve Blackman, Faarooq, Bradshaw.
Test, Dogg, Billy Gunn, Rios, Show, Richards, Blackman, Faarooq and Bradshaw were NOT great workers, if we're using the same logic you used to disqualify Goldust, Lawler and HHH.
ReplyDeleteI always think, those were the days when we should've had three hour Raws. A lot of the problem with the actual wrestling was that those guys were out there for a minute or less because there was so much stuff for everyone to do.
ReplyDeleteEverytime someone says that I always say "So George Washington must've been working for the British since he had the same name as king George?"
ReplyDeleteRead the first sentence.
ReplyDeleteThat Mabel sure was a hand.
ReplyDeleteIf we had three hour Raws in 2000, they could've been PPV quality on a near-weekly basis. (As it is, the- lone?- upside of the three hour Raws these days is we usually have one very good-to-great 15-20 minute match, and at least one other sold 12-15 minute match.)
ReplyDeleteOkay, Test, Dogg, Billy Gunn, Rios, Show, Richards, Blackman, Faarooq and Bradshaw were not solid workers using the logic you provided. There is no world in which 1993 - 1997 Jarrett is inferior to 1999-2001 Big Show.
ReplyDeleteThe Radicalz coming over is the final piece in what made the midcard great, but just a piece nonetheless.
ReplyDeleteJericho debuting (even though he dabbled in some main events, he was primarily a midcarder until his feud with Rock in 2001), the rise of Edge/Christian, the Hardys, the Dudleys and even Too Cool making the tag division great, and the debut of Angle (though he reached the main event mostly for good fairly quickly) all were big factors as well, and they mostly predated the Radicalz.
Because it's not like all four of them had a major affect. Saturn was kinda whatever, Malenko had some great matches early on but didn't do a whole lot. Benoit was obviously a major star in the midcard right away. Even Eddie didn't really hit his stride until after he came back from being fired, in 2002. He did some good stuff in 2000 after he came back from the elbow injury, but while they all added depth Benoit was the only real difference-maker in 2000-01 out of that group.
Fucking love New Generation Era! It was FRESH
ReplyDeleteThis episode seemed much more staged than the last. They made Cena look like a total rock star and Bryan look like an inbred hick... although I think Cena and his Bella came off as the most judgmental, unlikeable people I have ever sen... like they seemed like the "cool kids" out of a teen movie.
ReplyDeleteAnd the Fandango portion seemed very staged as that is the ONLY person so far that they have referred to by their gimmick name... honestly the only believable person to me so far is Eva Marie... because she looks exactly like the shallow hobag that she is coming off as.
All that said it is a mildly entertaining show just to see WWE from a different perspective.
You've listed a lot of good characters--maybe half of them were good workers. That's the Attitude Era in a nutshell.
ReplyDeleteWhere did I say '93-'97 Jarrett was inferior to '00 Show?
ReplyDeleteAnd what logic did I provide would remove Test, Dogg, Billy Gunn, Rios, Show, Richards, Blackman, Faarooq and Bradshaw from the list? The only guys I wouldn't really argue as being solid workers in '00 are Show, Faarooq, and Bradshaw, though I enjoyed Faarooq (and Bradshaw) matches far more in '00 than in '93-'97. So if Faarooq counts for the New Generation, I would count him for '00.
While I wasn't a fan of the characters Test, Blackman, and Richards played in '00, I'd much rather watch them in a match over any match involving Luger, Goldust, Piper, Faarooq, or HHH from the New Generation years. And if not for Lawler wrestling Bret at Summerslam '93, he'd be on the list as well.
The '00 roster was much deeper and more top-heavy than any other time in WWF/E history. No other era can top that year in all-around excellence.
Nobody's perfect!
ReplyDeleteI'd still take their matches over the likes of Luger and Goldust and pre-DX leader HHH. Your list looks pretty good so long as you *exclude* the '93-'97 years. If it didn't involve the Hart family, the Clique, Austin, or Foley in those years, it was pretty bad.
ReplyDeleteEven if that were true, you'd basically be saying, "If it didn't involve one of these ten guys, it was pretty bad." That's a lot of guys.
ReplyDelete10 guys over 5 years isn't really a lot. And only 3 of them (Shawn, Bret, Owen) were there for the entire 5 years. Hall, Nash, and Kid all left in early-'96, Bulldog re-joined in mid-'94, and Austin and Foley didn't join until '96. And whether you're counting Neidhart or Pillman as the 10th, both missed tons of time in that period.
ReplyDeleteI just don't see how '93-'97 compares favorably to '00 in any category. If you split '96-'97 off from the rest, *then* you have an argument. Harts vs. Austin, Harts vs. DX, Mankind vs. Taker, Taker vs. DX were all money feuds, Shawn having great matches with everybody, Austin kicking ass after ass, Bret turning heel with the family. The post-New Generation, pre-Attitude Era would be on par with '00 as the greatest overall product IMO. But lumping '93-'95 in with it drags it down considerably.
King Mabel aside, what makes '93-'95 so terrible, in your opinion? (And we're not talking booking here: just the in-ring product.)
ReplyDelete1993: Hogan, Yoko, and Luger clog the main event. Bret gets pushed to the midcard. Taker is still fighting the monster of the week. Shawn is bloated on 'roids and/or missing for most of the year (and wasn't yet the Shawn we would come to know and love). The Steiners, Money Inc. and the Quebecers are pretty much the entire tag division. Best main event of the year is Bret/Bam Bam from KotR.
ReplyDelete1994: Not a terrible year, but somewhat boring. Bret/Owen was a good feud, but I don't think anyone expected Owen to actually win. Razor and Diesel aren't really challenged for their IC titles except by each other. Shawn again misses large chunks of the year. The tag division is still weak, especially once Shawn and Diesel win the straps. Taker/Faker feud was garbage. Million $ Corp. debuts and is immediately useless.
1995: The Year of Diesel was the return of the Hogan Formula, which was long since played out. Diesel was awesome as a heel and tweener, but terrible as the smiling babyface. Didn't help he was stuck with Sid and Mabel. Jarrett was pushed to resounding apathy. IC title at least picked up once Shawn won the belt, but that wasn't until July The tag division continued to suck; only 1 actual tag team (the Smokin' Gunns) held the belts. Bret was stuck in midcard hell once again. Razor was busy teaming with Savio and feuding with Dean Douglas.
Outside of Bret's 2nd world title reign and the Shawn/Razor/Diesel feud, most of it was just boring drek. Just look at the PPVs. What matches are considered good? Bret/Razor (RR93), Headshrinkers/Steiners (WM9), Bret/Razor-Perfect-Bam Bam (KotR93), Bret/Doink (SuSl93), Quebecers/Bret&Owen (RR94), Bret/Owen (WM10), Razor/Shawn (WM10), Owen/Kid (KotR94), Bret/Owen (SuSl94), Bret/Backlund (SuSe94), Diesel/Bret (RR95), Diesel/Shawn (WM11), LT/Bam Bam (WM11), Bret/Hakushi (IYH1), Shawn/Jarrett (IYH2), Shawn/Razor (SuSl95), Bret/Lafitte (IYH3), Bret/Bulldog (IYH5). 19 matches out of 17 PPVs. There are several PPVs without a *single* good match.
That last paragraph pretty much makes my case, doesn't it? I would've killed to see matches like that in any other period, including the one you're defending. (And it was a great period too, no question.)
ReplyDelete1 good match per PPV? Really? Even the Rock N Wrestling '80s had a better ratio than that. With better characters and better segments.
ReplyDeleteOne-good-match-per-PPV is your opinion, not mine. The thing about the early-2000s--those years had some great workers, and a good variety of styles, sizes, etc... a lot like the mid-90s. The difference is that the early-2000s had a shit-ton more TV and PPV time to fill, and so people remember them as years loaded with good wrestling. Which they were... it's just that they had to be. That doesn't mean the top matches from that time were necessarily better than those from a period with less media saturation.
ReplyDeleteTo take just one year, 1994 (which you call boring--can't imagine how): we've got Bret, Owen, Jarrett, Bulldog (I think), Yoko, Luger, Bigelow, Crush, Savage, Perfect, Backlund, Razor, Diesel, Michaels, Undertaker, Waltman and Piper. I have no doubt that a roster like that could have filled out twelve PPVs per year if called upon to do so. I actually wish they had, because there were lots of potentially good combinations that we never saw.
I don't have much more to add to this. You're obviously a real fan and I respect your opinion. I just don't agree with it.
Cena is Super Macho Man.
ReplyDeleteI see you've seen the leaked script for National Treasure 3.
ReplyDeleteI wouldnt be surprised if the kids growing up with him do hold him in that regard like many of us, and my friends do, the guys you listed.
ReplyDeleteI can believe Holly/Umaga may have been penciled in at one point for WM23, but it just would've been an undercard bout and not the Trump vs. Vince avatar showdown. Remember, the original plan for that one was for Michaels to represent Trump and Booker to represent Vince.
ReplyDelete