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Hey Scott, ------------------------ I've got no beef with Cena the wrestler or Cena the person. He has great matches and he's one of the most positive role models in wrestling history. It's 100% the dorky character that's the issue with him. He almost always delivers in big matches and can be carried to greatness. He doesn't even rate with the all time best WORKERS, though, because he doesn't work other styles very well and needs someone better than him to get past *** or so. The Henry match was about his ceiling these days when he's with a lower level worker. I'd put him on par with Batista or later era HHH...smart enough to work around their own limitations but not good enough to fake a ****+ match out of them. |
I agree with all this. Cena is fine, it is how WWE USES Cena that sucks.
ReplyDeleteGotta disagree on Cena not being able to carry lesser workers - he got decent matches out of total lost-causes like Khali and Lashley. Also disagree on not being able to match with other styles; he can go with a cruiser like Rey, a technical guy like Shawn or Jericho, a more "intense" technician like Angle, an indy guy like Punk, a brawler like JBL, a spot-heavy guy like RVD, he can do realistic brawls (Brock), he can do over-the-top brawls (his "No DQ Ironman" against Orton), he can work pretty much any style or gimmick...
ReplyDeleteHe may not be a "worker" in the same sense as Shawn or Bret, but he's certainly a "worker" in the same sense as, say, Foley, in that he can have a relatively good match with pretty much anyone, even if it's through unorthodox means. He's miles above Batista or late-era Trips.
He has plenty of faults as a character, and the writers/bookers certainly don't do him any favors, but he's a hell of an in-ring performer.
I agree with almost everything.
ReplyDeleteHe doesn't mesh well is what I think Scott means. A lot of workers work around Cena's style as opposed to becoming a counter-Rey or a counter HBK.
LIke for instance RVD/Cena... Great match and nuclear heat but tbh its very clunky. Now it could be due to timing and/or bad spots but the match had no real flow even though it told a story.
The Angle matches in 05 were clunky as well.
The character is very stale, and the WWE booking of Cena as superman has gotten very old. He is a good worker though, needs a turn or character/personality change to not be groan worthy outside of matches.
ReplyDeleteIt's a shame he can't act and didn't connect with people like the Rock did. People just aren't supposed to be on top for that long. He's been doing this shtick for longer than most TV shows have stayed on the air and he refuses to change anything.
ReplyDeleteIf there's no growth, there's no reason to continue caring about a character. It's like...we all thought Joey from Friends was hilarious is 1994, but the "Joey is funny because he's functionally retarded" joke got a bit tiresome after a few years.
I think he is basically Sting in the early 90s in terms of ring work. He can carried his own but probably not good enough to elevate a lesser worker.
ReplyDeleteCena works hard, and that's saying something. He isn't the smoothest worker and actually at times he is quite clumsy. Taken out of his comfort zone, those flaws are quite visible
Yeah Cena got two *** - ***1/4 star matches out of Khali, and a ****1/4 match out of Umaga before Umaga had really hit his stride.
ReplyDelete(In the tune of the Shaft theme song)
ReplyDeleteHe's a company man and no one understands him but the kids who buy his t-shirts...
JOHN CENA.
Sting is a good comparison but Steve Borden wasn't really ever booked as strong as Cena. Sting could lose and get his ass kicked whereas Cena just seems to laugh everything off, which is infuriating. How can anyone invest themselves into Cena when it seems like he's never in any real peril?
ReplyDeleteI'm pretty sure that if Cena had been booked to be more vulnerable, he would have been far more sympathetic as a babyface and not been booed out of the arena like he does. Hell, I think he'll probably get booed at his Hall of Fame induction ceremony!
I dunno. At this point in his career, John is just as culpable as the writers/bookers when it comes to his character/angles. He's the biggest star in wrestling and is savvy enough about the industry to know what works. He can say no to certain things or kill stupid angles because what are they gonna do? De-push him to Miz territory? Not when his merch still sells as strong as it does and he main-events every show and PPV.
ReplyDeleteCena can hold up his end of a great match and can carry people to good matches. He never gasses, is willing to look like a buffoon (i . e. flying out of the ring missing a shoulderblock) and take a lot of punishment.
ReplyDeleteHowever, he is terrible technician with sloppy submissions and restholds and never works any body parts or psychology to set up his STF. He doesn't really sell so much as pretend to be tired and then pop up to show he was playing possum.
His storytelling ability careens up and down depending on his mood or the moment -- against RVD at ONS and Punk at MITB, he will lower his head like he's in enemy territory and drop the "aw shucks" demeanor for some intensity or he'll look like a chump against Mark Henry, but then in a blood feud against Lesnar he'll smile and wink after the match is over and on RAW, will not even limp while cutting his goofy promos.
When he works with midcarders or guys just a tad under his level -- Del Rio, Ziggler, Barrett, Cody -- Cena has a bad tendency to kick out of everything they have and yet not give them a similar courtesy of a believable nearfall or kicking out of his finisher.
Cena's endlessly frustrating as a worker, not because he's bad, but because he's very good and yet the things that separate him from being great are so easy to fix. Yet he continues to smile and wink at the wrong time and leave a Buick's parking space between his facelock and someone's chin in the STF.
Then again, he's only at 11-time WWE champ and main evented a zillion Wrestlemanias, so maybe it's shortcoming aren't that big of a deal.
I just compare his in ring work not the promos afterwards. The laughing it off thing is quite annoying
ReplyDeleteI would get on you for nitpicking, but when it comes to great workers you have to pick nits. I agree with you, I'd put Cena on the "very, very good" end of pro wrestlers. His selling is bad, like really bad. And his psychology and crispness (ESPECIALLY on submissions) isn't very good.
ReplyDeleteSeconded; I actually quite like him as a wrestler and don't even mind him dumbing down his moveset for his RAW matches (because if he gets hurt, they're fucked; that's on the WWE for not having made another megastar beside him, but I think he's smart for limiting his risk). Along the lines of what Scott said, my big issue is A) his character doesn't really appeal to anyone over 13; which is fine (kids are a big part of their audience), but... B) his character never looks vulnerable and never treats others as viable threats. That's what made his Brock match so special, because we were finally seeing him get the shit kicked out of him to the point where you did want to start rooting for him. I think if he made himself a little less bulletproof -- and WWE had guys like Punk or Bryan be the focus of the company's A-plot and not have everything revolve around John Cena -- I think folks would have less of an issue with him.
ReplyDeleteBut I think he's a pretty damn good worker when the lights get brightest, and I think Scott undersold him a little; as others mentioned, he can work with pretty much any type of wrestler and has carried lesser guys (JBL, Umaga) to really good matches.
Not only is his STF shitty it makes no sense with his character and the rest of his wrestling style... I wish they would retire that damn thing.
ReplyDeleteThe irony is that the submission move they should have given him is the crossface. You want to put over how big his arms are and how strong he is. The Benoit style crossface where he grabs his wrist instead of his hands and flexes would actually look impressive. He even uses that as a transitional move in PPV matches from time to time (and Cole will ALWAYS miscall it as the STF) and it looks 100x better than his STF.
ReplyDeleteBut for obvious reasons that's not going to work. I still believe that they gave him the STF just for that one off joke of him having the F-U and the STF-U and now 6 years later they're stuck here and can't get out because it's just a part of who he is at this point.
There is an easy way out, just stop fucking doing it and never mention it again.
ReplyDeleteThis particular post should be placed at the top of any Cena argument we have from here on out. Hit the nail on the head. Great stuff.
ReplyDeleteI think the crossface should be retired, I'm shocked anyone would actually do that move.
ReplyDeleteI was going to reply but you nailed it, it was only for the pun they gave him the move.
ReplyDeleteThis is what worries me about the Bryan match at Summerslam. If Cena does his usual "aw shucks, I lost" demeanor after the match if he loses, it's going to make Bryan look terrible.
ReplyDeleteI want them so badly to do something different with Cena. Even Hogan got to put on a mask and be Hulk Machine and then Mr. America. It's too bad they never went ahead with luchadore Juan Cena. Do an amnesia angle where he forgets who he is. Do an evil twin gimmick where he plays both roles. I don't care how corny it is as long as it's something different.
ReplyDeletei just want "poopy" to be the cutoff word for 'shut yo' mouth!'
ReplyDeleteThe people who criticize Cenas in ring work are just Cena haters looking for something to criticize. Yea, his character sucks but given the right opponent, he can deliver the goods (HBK, Punk, Batista, Rock I, etc)
ReplyDeleteIncredible post. Bravo.
ReplyDeleteI don't think it's true that Cena never puts his opponents over as a threat. In the buildup to his PPV matches with Mark Henry and Ryback, there were at least a few times that they played it like Cena was scared -- or at least extremely cautious -- of those guys' ability to hurt him.
ReplyDeleteWhen Brock kicked that stupid green hat out of the ring after his WM XXVIII return, that was fantastic.
ReplyDeleteUp until the last couple of seasons, he was not a great jump shooter, esp. in Cleveland (the Spurs trounced the Cavs in the 07 Finals part because they basically sagged off LeBron and dared them to beat them from 15+ feet out, which he couldn't). I think people keep saying that because it's a rep that sticks, but he's definitely a much better shooter to the point where -- coupled with his post game, which he didn't have until the last two years (he couldn't even back down JJ Barea without taking offensive fouls) -- he's basically indefensible unless you have an elite on-ball defender on the wing.
ReplyDeleteHow is Mark Henry a lower level worker?
ReplyDeleteCena's in ring work is weird to me. He really is a good worker in many ways and has shown again and again he can both be carried to an amazing match or carry guys to really good matches. In other ways he's beyond frustrating to me because there's very rarely any subtlety to what he does in the ring. He sells things in weird ways some times and he virtually never acts like a match had any effect on him whatsoever (almost anyone else in the company wrestles a 15-20 minute match and after winning will sell being hurt or winded, slow to get up, etc., Cena rarely does. He usually looks like he just finished wrestling the Brooklyn Brawler in a quickie 30 second squash). I absolutely hate when Cena is selling that he might get counted out...he sells it in such a cartoonish way that it takes me out of the match (rather than slowly try to drag himself to the ring and barely get in at 10, he lies on the ground like an absolute corpse, not moving a muscle until 9, then suddenly springs to his feet and runs full force to the ring, slides in, and then lies there like a corpse again...it honestly looks very stupid to me and goes along with Cena constantly switching between "They're beating me so badly I'm dying and just barely kicking out on heart and loyalty and respect" and "I'm a superhuman who is unaffected by your weak offense").
ReplyDeleteBut again, I certainly would not say Cena is a bad worker. He absolutely isn't, he's a very good worker most of the time and a great worker the rest. But there's a lot of little annoying things he does that bother me and there seems to be absolutely no middle ground with him in most of his matches...he either acts like he's dying, acts like he's perfectly fine, and switches between the two randomly throughout the match, rather than selling it as slowly becoming more and more hurt/winded as the match goes on. The little things really keep me from putting him any higher.
The weird thing with Cena's matches is he often does look "vulnerable" in his matches with his opponent getting a lot of offense. The problem is Cena has such a bizarre way of selling that rather than watching a Cena match and thinking "The other guy is kicking his ass", you're just sitting around waiting for him to suddenly pop up and act like nothing is wrong at all, hit the AA, and then jog around the ring posing and acting like he's fine.
ReplyDeleteThe worst example of this was Miz VS Cena I Quit, where Miz and Riley beat down Cena for 20 minutes with weapons with Cena getting virtually no offense in, then he suddenly pops up, AA's Riley, SPRINTS up the stage, makes Miz quit, and acts like he was in a 30 second squash match. That was the worst example, but he does that stuff all the time. It's so annoying to me because he IS a good worker...if he sucked, I'd just write it off, but he does a lot of things really, really well in the ring.
" but then in a blood feud against Lesnar he'll smile and wink after the match is over and on RAW, will not even limp while cutting his goofy promos."
ReplyDeleteWhat if he is No-selling the fact that Lesnar and Rock are part timers and dont give a fuck about selling for them?
A friend of mine keeps pushing for Cena to turn into Rick Rude 2.0 when he turns heel: slicked back hair, goatee, robe, long tights. It'll never happen, but Cena as a sneering asshole would be a hell of a character change.
ReplyDeleteAnd Lesnar, for obvious reasons. Plus he always treats Punk as a threat and an equal.
ReplyDeleteScott's definitely underrating Cena. He's a guy who can definitely carry lesser workers to good matches, he himself doesn't need to be "carried to greatness" (he was the better half of the MITB match with Punk). He can work just about any kind of match. He's definitely better than later era HHH (although I think Trips is quite underrated around these parts) and on a whole different planet from the mostly-mediocre Batista (as much as I like Big Dave). His main faults as a worker are his clunkiness (though he's still a much better worker than, say, the very smooth but otherwise "meh" and overrated Kurt Angle) and, sometimes, his selling (though plenty of good babyface workers have that fault).
ReplyDeleteFor me, the worst offender was the SS '10 Nexus vs. WWE match, where Cena took a DDt on the concrete and then managed to eliminate the last two guys about a minute later anyway. But you're right, he lets himself get kicked around, but instead of selling the beating, he does a literal interpretation of the WWE video game "Comeback" mechanic, where he just pops to his feet and goes hoss afire, no matter the shitkicking that took place before.
ReplyDeleteWhy? Just because some sleazebag used it as his finisher? Now the flying headbutt, THAT needs to be retired.
ReplyDeleteThen he's an unprofessional asshat.
ReplyDeleteYea, I don't think he gets nearly enough credit for the contributed improvement on his J.
ReplyDeleteScott means because he's black.
ReplyDeleteYup, that's a great example as well. And a good way of putting it...he sells like he's using a video game mechanic.
ReplyDelete