Scott, scouring the web trying to pass time on the overnight shift. Figured id get your opinion on some completely random stuff.
1) If you had to bet your house on: The Rock appearing on wwe tv again but not wrestling, never appearing on wwe tv again, coming back at some point and doing a short run that includes a WM match, which do you pick (excluding HOF tv appearances.)
2) Where in the blue hell is Big Johnny in this Bryan/HHH angle? Hed be the perfect HHH lackey.
3) If Hogan decides he doesnt want to turn NwO, what happens? Doesn't he position himself as the top opposing face and eventually go over the entire NwO, thus killing it in less then a year?
4) Rank these in order of ability to work: Austin, Rock, Cena, Brock.
. Safest bet would be appearing but not wrestling. The injury from last WM was apparently really bad and I can't see insurance companies letting him continue doing that with $20 million paydays on the line. But I can't see Rock staying away from WWE forever either.
2. He got fired ages ago and replaced by HHH and his cronies in real life. I think he's still working as a road agent for house shows, but Johnny is very much a product of the previous regime and was gonna be one of the first to go when HHH took over.
3. Yeah, I couldn't see Hogan as a babyface opposing the nWo working out for them very well.
4. Austin could do anything pre-injury and almost as much post-injury. Brock is a freak of nature but within a limited style so he gets #2. Rock was great with someone greater than him but didn't tend to carry weaker guys to strong matches so he's #3. Cena always delivers in the big matches and can carry guys within his one style of match, but he's a total product of the WWE system and he'd be lost if forced to do things like they did in the old days. Which isn't to say he's not great in own way but he can't touch any of the other three.
Didn't someone mention Johnny Ace taking part of Pritchard's TNA duties after Bruce was shitcanned?
ReplyDeleteMan, WWE IS sabotaging TNA.
ReplyDeleteIf I remember correctly, didn't Foley break Johnny Ace's arm during a top rope backdrop and screw his chances in NJPW or something way back in the day?
ReplyDeleteI'm not sure it was Foley, but that story does ring a bell... something about Johnny being Mrs. Baba's favorite wrestler, and whoever injured him seriously displeased the lady.
ReplyDeleteBig Johnny was a guilty pleasure of mine in his corporate role vs Punk. His doofy natural demeanor was just so great.
ReplyDeleteIs there anyone left in the camp that Rock wasn't truly injured? There were some funny conspiracy theorists around that time...
ReplyDeleteRock is the best ever on the mic and his moveset is still more interesting to me than Cena's (even in 2013), but ranking Cena last here is just wrong.
ReplyDeleteLook no further than both of their respective matches with CM Punk.
If you're talking 1999-2000 Rock (who had actual cardio and wasn't 2002 HHH'd with roids) then maybe it's closer, but I still think Cena has him beat there. And I am not a Cena fan.
I think I agree with you. Rock also only wrestled one style and probably would be lost in the 80s NWA.
ReplyDeleteYea, it seemed completely overblown now. I dont remember the details but was definitely disappointed he didnt show up at the Raw to give his "good byes" to the WWE. Never thought he was faking though
ReplyDeleteOther than his time in Memphis when that was an unofficial developmental league for WWF, Rock basically came up through the system too. I think Cena outranks Rock easily. Of course, I've never loved Rock in the ring to begin with.
ReplyDeleteAustin
ReplyDeleteCena
Brock
Rock
You can't use the Punk matches. That's like using some shitty gassed-up Randy Savage match from late 90's WCW against a really good worker.
ReplyDeleteI think Cena is better than Rock but it's closer than people would like to admit, the style nowadays is so sanitized. But out of that group, it's a battle for last.
I know its old news but the NwO topic fascinates me. How does WCW play out those years in a political power struggle between Hogan (assuming hes the top face) vs Hall, Nash, whoever the third guy would be, and possibly the hottest angle ever. Yea, I know its not nearly as big without Hogan turning, but if they coulda milked it until Bret being the 3rd guy it woulda still been huge? Does Hogan insist on going over everyone? Would Nash and Hall have enough political pull to hold off Hogan and keep the nwo strong? Someone invent a time machine so we can go back and play out this alternate reality.
ReplyDeleteBaby face Hogan against the nWo and them jobbing immediately would have killed wrestling.
ReplyDeleteI just want to add that Bret Hart also would have been a total disaster as leader of the nWo. Sting might have worked but he just doesn't have the mic skills to pull it off. Ditto for Luger.
ReplyDeleteThis is why it's so easy to dismiss Cena, even though he always delivered "good" matches. They're good, but they're almost always the exact same kind of match. That's also why Cena's match with Lesnar from last year is remembered so fondly, because it was a great John Cena match and it was a DIFFERENT John Cena match.
ReplyDeleteI don't know, maybe Scott is right with Rock being a naturally better worker than Cena in his prime, but Cena has worked much better matches than Rock has in his lifetime.
ReplyDeleteI don't agree. His great matches with Punk were distinctly different than his great matches with Triple H which were different than his great matches with Shawn Michaels. The guy adapts to opponents' styles FAR better than Scott gives him credit for. Plus, Rock only pushes himself as far as his opponent is willing to push, whereas Cena goes full throttle no matter the devotion of his opponent. I'd rank Cena above Rock.
ReplyDeleteSavage as the leader of the nWo would have been fascinating, starting the group to finally take out the cancer than is Hulk Hogan. But then, they would have been jobbed out immediately.
ReplyDeleteAustin was heads and shoulders above those other 3 guys. He's an all time great worker.
ReplyDeleteI think its pretty clear Brock is #2 but I'd put cena ahead of rock. Not by much but cenas probably carried a few more guys and hit a higher level of match more often. However rock didnt have as good of guys to work against in the attitude era. All 4 guys are fantastic really. And if you wanted to say Brock should be 4th because his sample size is so much smaller I couldn't argue that.
But you can use the Punk matches as part of his body of work. The man has delivered, and delivered big, in the main event spot for years with many ****+ matches against a variety of opponents (form Umaga, to Punk, to RVD).
ReplyDeleteRock is one of the best ever on the mic. I can't get over how good CM Punk was against him this last year though. Made me second guess myself whenever I say Rock is the best talker ever.
ReplyDeleteIt's a shame Brock quit so quickly during his first run b/c he had the athleticism and skill to be an all time great big man worker as well. Just looking at his range in the great HitC with Taker and then the WMXIX match with Angle is amazing. Of course, without the sabbatical we wouldn't have gotten the fairly innovative style he's used in the matches vs. Punk and Cena now.
ReplyDeleteThis is spot on.
ReplyDeleteI find it amusing that the Rock/Cena combo led to a VERY disappointing WM main even this year, from a workrate standpoint.
ReplyDeleteAnd Hogan had the mic skills? His promos as nWo chief sucked.
ReplyDeleteI think it's kinda funny that people are accusing Cena of only knowing one style but putting Brock at #2. Lesnar has one match in him.
ReplyDeleteI'd go so far as to say that Austin is actually a really underrated worker, but I'm a total fanboy.
ReplyDeleteMaybe now, but compare Angle WM19 and Cena Extreme Rules and I think there different enough. Brock is hard to rank though because he does have his limitations and his preferred style. I could be talked into putting him 2-4 depending on my mood
ReplyDeleteCena's career has also been fair bit longer.
ReplyDeleteHe definitely was. Pre-neck injury, he was awesome yet you rarely hear about it (except places like the BoD).
ReplyDeleteWithout Hogan on the stick, I don't see the nWo going nearly as far a they did. Granted, by mid 97, we were all tired of Hulk's 20 minute tirades, but his bash promo is one of the all time great interviews of wrestling history. Hogan's promos set the tone for the nWo.
ReplyDeleteAny first major promo after a heel turn is gonna draw heat.
ReplyDeleteJarrett took over Pritchard's role as head of Talent Relations. Bischoff took over Pritchard's other role as head of Creative. Big Johnny is not in TNA
ReplyDeleteIt needed to be Rock from ten years ago for it to be a great match
ReplyDeleteI think rock did as well as you could expect for someone who barely wrestle for 10 years & who was injured mid match
I have always thought Austin was one of the top ten workers of all time- his rep suffers because of the type if matched he had after a near career ending injury- but before that he was step-for-step with Hart and HBK. Even after he could still work with Kurt and the two Canadian Chris(s) without missing a beat.
ReplyDeleteThey overdid it, but after Vince got fired/HHH is COO angle, i thought they were going for a Johnny Ace corporate takeover angle.
ReplyDeleteLike "okay Vince got fired by the board of directors.... HHH is too green at his job so he needs toi lean on me (Ace), Im going to play him and get him out the way and then I WILL BE IN CHARGE OF THE WWE."
i thought he was faking
ReplyDeletegreat point
ReplyDeleteSet the tone? Well I'll give you that.
ReplyDeleteWeren't they so long and nonsensical they had to be edited down to the weird clip things that made nWo distinct?
If Hogan isnt the 3rd guy, the nWo is dead by Starrcade.
ReplyDeleteOr else they would be in a parallel universe ala Punk/Heyman/Brock
He had COMPLETE CREATIVE CONTROL over his character. He vetos everything.
"not gonna work for me brother."
They did.
ReplyDeleteScott
ReplyDeleteYou are super off on this one.
Austin, or course
Cena, and its not even close between 2 and 3
Rock
Brock
Cena has turned out classic after classic after classic with a wide variety of wrestlers with differing styles.
Jericho, Christian, Angle,HHH,Edge,Umaga, Lashley (forgotten classic), HBK, Batista, Punk, Bryan, Brock, (im not a fan of the matches) Rock.
Because he came up in the santized WWE system (along with Brock Lesnar I might add at the same time as well) doesn't mean anything.
As Drunk Murphy said, Rock did the same thing.
Nash says that Hogan would go into his wacky 80's "wrestling voice" (which drove Nash nuts) but they wanted the nWo promos to be more realistic and not that cheesy. So they ended up editing most of them down.
ReplyDeleteHence my incredulity at how they needed Hogan's "mic skills".
ReplyDeleteMy question was semi-rhetorical, but thanks for the backup anyway.
ReplyDeleteAh, thanks. I thought it was a rumor... but I wasn't sure.
ReplyDeleteYeah definitely. The fact that he was able to find a style that allowed him to have memorable matches even while in crippling pain that limited what he could do, shows that he was just an elementally great worker.
ReplyDeleteI thought it was a superplex, some move where Ace's arm got caught underneath him and broke. He was Mrs. Baba's favorite wrestler and Foley was done after.
ReplyDeleteYeah, I thought he had this awesome anti-charisma.
ReplyDeleteEh, Rock was mailing it in HARD the last two years both in the ring and on the mic.
ReplyDeleteIf it's Sting I wonder if it works out like the Invasion did?
ReplyDeleteIf Austin never injures his neck he's the GOAT, no question.
ReplyDeleteFor me it's:
ReplyDeleteAustin
Brock
Rock
Cena
Austin, if he doesn't have the neck injury, is the GOAT and it's not even close. Austin moved into the underrated category because his last year of in-ring action and his post-retirement characters were stale. But having watched more of his pre-injury stuff and thinking about how great he was as the brawling champion, it's amazing. IMO, because the Rock went into movies we forget that Austin was always the bigger star in the wrestling ring until they both weren't active.
Brock is just a mutant to me. You can't pin the HHH matches on him (because he was forced to work Hunter's match) but man is he amazing.
Rock could probably be #2. I admit that I've been biased against the guy in part because he mailed it in for the last two years as a part of the WWE and in part because of the fawning people did over him. But 1999 and 2000 Rock was the tits. Though I've always loathed face Rock.
Cena is a guy who I'm underrating and I'll probably regret this in a few years.
"Anti-charisma" might be the best description of Big Johnny ive ever heard. Im stealing this term.
ReplyDeleteThank you, but he played the character perfectly. He was supposed to be this wooden, oblivious stooge and he was so perfect in the role. If anything, I thought his problem was that he was too subtle.
ReplyDeleteYea, I agree with you. It completely amazes me that he single handedly could have killed the entire thing.
ReplyDeleteand looks like George Takei
ReplyDelete