Scott,
A couple of months ago, when The Shield (despite having the Tag/US titles) seemed stagnant and aimless, a lot of the Internet crowd was calling for WWE to break them up, or at least turn them babyface. If that had happened, however, we likely wouldn't have The Shield being as awesome and integral as they are in the current Bryan-Orton-HHH story line.
Can you recall other notable cases in which the wrestling fan base was heavily in favor of something that, in the long run, wouldn't have been the best idea? Or something that the crowd wanted that actually did happen but turned out to be a bad idea? I think at least one of the D-X reunions would fit here.
Who in their right mind was calling for the Shield to break up or turn?
Some easy ones:
ReplyDelete1. Sid being world champion
2. Randy Orton going over Undertaker at Wrestlemania
When was the fan base in favor of either of these things? Sid getting a pop in MSG is not the same as a groundswell of support for Sid as champion.
ReplyDeleteI don't remember people saying they needed to break up, but people did think the group was dead and going nowhere.
ReplyDeleteI assume internet fanbase? How ever else would people know, through petitions and letters?
ReplyDeleteI'll add Miz turning face. Loads of people online said it should be done...
They had seemed to stagnate for a bit, but I think that falls into the category of "shit happens." Even if everything was as tight, well-written and focused as it was in 2000, sometimes guys who deserve better just don't have something for them at a given time.
ReplyDeleteOr maybe that was the plan, to make it more impactful when they became part of the main event storyline. Given that it's a McMahon-driven storyline, having that kind of forethought wouldn't be suprising for once.
It gets a bit tiresome when people build these strawman arguments based on what "the Internet crowd" supposedly wants. Everyone's on the fucking internet these days. Look hard enough and you'll find someone- or even some group of people- advocating just about any possible outcome for any storyline or wrestler.
ReplyDeleteThat said, I think it'd be great if a face turn eventually came FROM this storyline. At this point, I'd be fine with Reigns being the breakout star even though I maintain my unhealthy, nonsexual crush on Dean Ambrose. He has Batista-type potential. I thought his match with Bryan was a LOT better than the **3/4 Scott gave it on Monday night. If he can hang in the ring like that, make him your next megaface. I'm all for it .
Whoever said that wasn't necessarily wrong for thinking that. There was just never any real reason for turning him face, so it was DOA.
ReplyDeleteYeah I thought they were fine as a group. People wanted to act like they were being punished, while they were still champions.
ReplyDeleteNot much talk about splitting them up, but I remember a lot of comments about The Shield turning face to feud with the Wyatt Family.
ReplyDeleteWrestlings fan for the most part are some very impatient motherfuckers. They want everything explained for it to make sense the minute something happens. So many people were pissed that Armstrong did a fast count and that they closed the show without explaining it.
ReplyDeleteI agree with what you are saying about 'internet fans'. Even on this blog (which is a tiny portion of even the internet fan base) - just mention any of the following: HHH, Bret Hart, Ric Flair, Kevin Nash, and even Vince Russo: and you'll get a crapload of different opinions.
ReplyDeleteThe one that has always been up in the air is Cena going heel.
ReplyDeleteThe brand split. The true version, when each had their own PPVs. It actually forced them to use new guys instead of the same 15 they use every week now. Bring that shit back.
ReplyDelete100% support this. All I read about was how bad the brand split was, but people forget that without it... new people wouldn't even get a chance.
ReplyDeleteRight off the top of my head, I can think of the internet wanting real-life nutjob Matt Hardy to get a massive push.
ReplyDeleteHonestly, if you go through the "Scott Sez" rants you can find a bunch of situations where he says "In hindsight, Vince was right to make that choice". It's not because the internet is dumb but that the internet simply isn't privy to all of the factors that go into making booking choices.
Don't even get me started on the whining in the four weeks after Summerslam re: HHH
ReplyDeleteHoly shit, yes. It really hasn't been that bad. We can't even get into NOC without a bunch of wrestling "journalists" writing a article on how this storyline is already a failure. -____________-
ReplyDeleteYour back! I preferred the CAPSMANLOCK gimmick with everything being written in caps, but ill adapt.
ReplyDeleteI'm sorry but the Brand split produced some of the worst PPVs ever. It was something that we're just recovering from now.
ReplyDeleteI wanted Sid as champion of some sort for about 10 years from '90 to '00. I stand by my opinion. Other than possibly Brock Lesnar, there has never been a guy who looked more like a wrestling champion than Sid.
ReplyDeleteThe holy grail...Cena turning heel. Its been talked about/argued for about 5 fucking years.
ReplyDeleteYou can do the brand split..but share the PPV's.
ReplyDeleteIt also produced some of the best PPVs ever. The same can be said about any era. The difference is that new people got a chance to become stars.
ReplyDeleteI remember everyone on the internet complaining when the WWF dropped the Cain part of the Undertaker's name, and, in hindsight, that appears to have been the right call.
ReplyDeleteAlso, the internet thought the Paul Orndorff face turn after Wrestlemania 1was uncalled for, but that turn set up one of the highest grossing feuds ever when his partnership with Hulk Hogan dissolved.
Sometimes the knuckleheads behind the keyboards don't know what's best for them.
I like HHH promos and Orton has been wrestling some really good matches. And Cody Rhodes and the Big Show are interesting again.
ReplyDeleteThe stuff with Show beating up Bryan was a mis-step, but not a massive one.
The roster was also pretty terrible at the time. They are in far, far better shape now than in 2002.
ReplyDeleteyeah, all the keyboard warriors in '85 should have let it play out to see where it went!
ReplyDelete'Your back!'
ReplyDeletewhat *about* his back?
I can't recall fully, but did people scream for Ryback to beat Punk for the belt? Yeah, WWE got that one right.
ReplyDeleteNothing is more annoying then grammar corrections. Yes, I know the difference between YOU ARE and YOUR but things like autospell on phones take over. As jobber123 once put it "grammar corrections is the laziest, most uncreative form of trolling."
ReplyDeleteWhoa... that's a little tough to swallow considering you spearheaded the Kentucky grassroots campaign on RSPW back in '87 to turn Hillbilly Jim heel with Bundy and attack the midgets at WM3. You thought the newly christened Handsome Jim would be propelled to main event status. If memory serves, you thought the turn should lead him to taking the title from Hogan at The Wrestling Classic II (which never happened).
ReplyDeleteMaybe I'm misremembering, but someone has to call you out on this shit.
Grammar corrections ARE the laziest...
ReplyDeleteLULZ!!!!!!!!!!!
ReplyDeleteHa. Eat my ass Mr Petuka.
ReplyDeleteI'm loving the resurgence of The Shield, if only for it proving once again that Meltzer has zero insight on anything.
ReplyDeleteDr. Farva, I love your posts but I couldn't resist. Sorry.
ReplyDeleteThe problem with this is we can't see what happens in both cases.
ReplyDeleteAbsolutely! Except actually going back to having a totally SEPARATE product, with separate content
ReplyDeleteI dont blame you. I had it coming on that one.
ReplyDeleteHell no, don't split the Shield yet. I still want to see Shield vs. Wyatt Family in some wild NWA-era six-man brawls. Maybe a six-man Cell match or something. Don't even turn one team or the other, just a couple of heel teams wanting to be the top stable. The fans can turn one or the other, but just leave them to kill each other without any forced face turns
ReplyDeletei'm a loser, remember :(
ReplyDeleteWhat did he say?
ReplyDeleteThe Shield was going to be depushed because they don't shake hands well.
ReplyDeleteApparently they're in the doghouse and being depushed. The Wyatt Family is going to be subbed into the original plans instead.
ReplyDeleteEven the ECW marks fawned over Sid.
ReplyDeleteSee I heard it was because Rollins refused to take a shower with Bradshaw.
ReplyDeleteYes. Maybe work a trade in once a year when a storyline would call for it... but no drafting.
ReplyDeleteThey were pushed to the backburner for a few months, so he wasn't wrong. Witness them randomly losing a six-man to Christian and the Usos which went nowhere.
ReplyDeleteThey lost that match to build to the Usos challenging them for the tag titles and so people might think the Usos had a chance at winning. They weren't going to go undefeated their entire WWE run.
ReplyDeleteChristian got the pin on Ambrose, and it never went anywhere.
ReplyDeleteIf that was their punishment, other wrestlers should be so lucky.
ReplyDeleteThey lost one match to a team they were feuding with and a guy that was supposed to be challenging for the title before he got injured (again). WHAT DEVASTATING PUNISHMENT!
ReplyDeleteThis. Fuck that noise. Have wrestlers "jump ship" when you want to move someone.
ReplyDeleteI never said they were being punished, just that they were pushed to the backburner and started doing a lot more jobs.
ReplyDeleteI remember when Vern was thinking about turning Hogan babyface and absolutely everybody thought he was out of his mind.
ReplyDeleteOne is a lot?
ReplyDeleteThey also jobbed to Big Show/RVD/Henry, and I think did some single jobs.
ReplyDeleteAlso, I don't read the Observer, so I don't know exactly what Meltzer said, just that they cooled off over the summer.
ReplyDeleteI also think it was a mistake to waste their first job on an episode of Smackdown
They weren't going to win every match.
ReplyDeleteNo, but they were built up as a six-man unit that they probably shouldn't be doing random jobs. A win over The Shield should be a big deal
ReplyDeleteI thought the brand extension worked in 2002-2004 when they were truly treated as their own "brands" and hardly interacted (like pre-2013 American and National League baseball), which made it felt special when you had two guys (like Angle/HBK or Orton/Taker at WM21) who don't usually tangle finally get in the ring together.
ReplyDeleteAt the same time, single-brand PPVs was one of the worst ideas ever. Each side had depth to do a two-hour show, but not the kind of depth to put on their own $50 show.
Because the match came out of nowhere, without much build. The Shield's first loss should be a big deal, something you pay for.
ReplyDeleteI did like that Lillian announced it as their first loss, nice touch/
The only single-brand PPVs worth a damn was Vengeance 2003 and 2005 (there's probably one more, but I don't want to crawl through a river of shit to do it). As the guy below me said, brand extension = good, single-brand PPVs = bad.
ReplyDeleteThey're a mid-card trio.
ReplyDeleteWhy? They're heels. Cheating heels. Them being left laying is a bigger deal than them getting pinned.
ReplyDeleteAnd if he had made ONE MORE appearance, the mutants would have turned on him.
ReplyDeletePeople wanted them to break up? In my best stilted Ewan-McGregor-in-Star-Wars delivery, "Did I miss something?"
ReplyDeleteWho beat everyone, including Ryback/Cena/Sheamus and Taker/Kane/D-Bry
ReplyDeleteWell the times they made him champion in 96-97, the Internet wanted Vader to get the belt from Shawn. The second Sid reign was obviously just to transition the belt to the Undertaker.
ReplyDeleteThey are heels who never lost. So when they do lose, it should be a big deal.
ReplyDeleteBy nefarious means. We're not exactly talking about the original NWO here.
ReplyDeleteNot losing wasn't important to the gimmick.
ReplyDeleteThe wins were clean. They didn't use outside interference or foreign objects when they weren't allowed. They dominated the TLC match
ReplyDeleteI don't even remember how they turned him face. He's their best guy with the media; it's a shame he's such a poor wrestler.
ReplyDeleteYes it is. They are three guys who arrive on the scene and beat the shit out of those who come in their way.
ReplyDeleteThey beat the shit out of people. They don't have to win the match.
ReplyDeleteYes they do. That's what got them over. Invincibility
ReplyDeleteThey didn't double-team? They didn't capitalize on 3-on-2 situations? It was all three on three completely fair matches eh? Totally sportsmanlike?
ReplyDeleteNo. Jumping people and kicking the shit out of them got them over. The triple power bomb is not a legitimate finisher.
ReplyDeleteBig Show's involvement in this angle would be a lot better if every action he finally makes wasn't preceded by 5-10 minutes of crying.
ReplyDeleteHe took the place of someone in that stupid Survivor Series tag match where it was Mick's team versus Punk's team.
ReplyDeleteThey won matches by being smart, so yes. Look at Elimination Chamber. Reigns takes Sheamus out, catches Ryback and Cena when they are not paying attention.
ReplyDeleteOr TLC, how they make a 3-3 tag somehow work to their advantage by working together.
Reigns' spear is
ReplyDeleteIf the Shield kept jumping people but then kept doing jobs in regular matches they wouldn't be as over.
ReplyDeleteWe seem to have different definitions of "clean" here.
ReplyDeleteFor the record, I go with McNeal's definition. Double teams and 3-on-2's are part of tag matches, even if they technically break a rule.
Don't forget that back then, they used the same 8 on RAW and the same 8 on SD and the shows sucked most of the time. And instead of Booker T and RVD we got JBL as WWE Champion... Today we have Bryan, Shield, Ryback, Curtis Axel, Fandango... not enough new guys?
ReplyDeleteHaven't we not enough "new" guys in the shows today? Ok if Cena and Sheamus weren't hurt... but if we would have two different roster, the loss of Sheamus and Cena would hurt much more.
ReplyDeleteAre you just bored?
ReplyDeleteWell he was out of his mind. . . . just not about that, lol.
ReplyDeleteNope. Just right.
ReplyDeleteNOPE. I mean, it's fairly inconsequential in the long haul, but it still felt weird to throw their first loss out on the B show instead of Raw or a PPV. them being heels doesn't matter to that- if you have guys who go a while without a loss, you make the loss a big deal when it happens. I mean, should The Rock have topped CM Punk for the title on an episode of Superstars or Main Event? (yes, I know they're main eventers. it's exaggeration to prove a point. settle down.)
ReplyDeleteIf the WWE Network were in existence, it would make sense for the individual "Brand" PPVs to be cheaper like In Your House used to be, then have 5 traditional company-wide PPVs at regular price.....of course, the WWE Network at this point is pretty much D.O.A. I think, but it would be a good idea in theory.
ReplyDeleteYour analogy is too silly to even address.
ReplyDeleteOr you just don't have a particular point and want to back and out and save face. either or.
ReplyDeleteI looked into my future self around July 2014 and it turns out I did ask for this.
ReplyDeleteYes, changing the world title on a d-show that nobody watches is exactly the same as a mid-card trio taking a meaningless loss on a far bigger show. I stand corrected, your analogy is dead on.
ReplyDeleteI don't think so. Jericho (oddly enough) wanted Ryback to win, but I think for the most part John Q. Internet Fan wanted CM Punk to keep the belt so he could lose it to The Rock.
ReplyDelete