If you want to see the collective heads of your BoDers to explode while simultaneously upping your page hit and comments section, post this and just get out of the way. Mark
The man makes some good points. This angle is not turning business around, and HHH is not the guy to put the good of the business before himself. I'm still cautiously optimistic, but they REALLY need some babyface hope spots soon. Like, with Austin, people paid to see him get revenge on the boss, not stand in line because they're in fear for their job like in real life. So I see where Keller is coming from there.
peeps have been obviously making comparisons to the austin/corporation angle, so i'll throw in my own observation that for the moment, big show is playing the part of 'hesistant heel under duress' kane
ReplyDeleteTorch is my news site of choice and I tend to find myself agreeing with Keller more often than not but I strongly dislike the soapbox nature that most of his "rants" possess. He seemingly has a strong dislike for HHH, which is nothing new for the internet, but he is theoretically supposed to be an objective reporter so more often than not it comes across as a typical IWC guy bitching about the guy on top.
ReplyDeleteHis points on the neutering of the roster and, in particular, Big Show as a blubbering mess are notable but he keeps going back to it with a bull-peen hammer to the point to where I just stop caring because he keeps saying the same things again and again.
I do certainly agree, however, that Bryan is not getting treated like a top star; you don't "build" someone by constantly tearing them down physically and verbally. If this were 15 years ago (God help me, I feel so old...) and Austin was coming out with the beer truck and Rocky just stood there and no sold it and had Shamrock/Bossman lay a beating on Austin, followed by a match against Big Show where Jim Ross was lamenting Austin's chances because Big Show is just so awesome...yeah, it would've sucked.
Yeah, this is everything I've been saying since before SummerSlam and I predicted that HHH would turn heel to join Orton.
ReplyDeleteNobody is getting over except HHH. The main roster looks like a bunch of neutered douches. Forget Austin, could you picture Dusty Rhodes falling in with management? No. Dusty was shown to be smarter than management by becoming the Midnight Rider if he lost a "Loser Leaves" match. Could you see Hogan backing down to Jack Tunney? Wrestling is an escape. If I want to see ass kissing yes men, I'll go to work.
Bryan has gotten ONE up on the regime. He spray painted Orton's car. On the other side, he's taken like SIX beatdowns. Austin was a bit of a different character (a badass can't afford to look very week), but there was plenty of give and take. Vince would screw Austin, Austin would trash his corvette.
He made a good point about Show though. Either way, there is nothing good for him. If he's a face, he's a crybaby. If he's a heel, he a whipped goon.
ReplyDeleteWhat angle has turned business around in 3 weeks?
ReplyDeleteEven if we throw away the Austin/McMahon comparisons, you're still watching Bryan get beat down week in/out.
ReplyDeleteThere's patience, and there's "back and forth", and so far, it's been all back, no forth.
I do think the heel beatdowns are starting to become overkill. I was on board, but every show ending like that, the faces need some hope at this point.
ReplyDeletekurt angle
ReplyDeletehe won the olympics with a broken freakin' neck
hell, he tore his quads just this morning, and there was he was, dumping around on it
If it's really no-win, he should dress up as a tree. Why? Because TREES.
ReplyDeleteI think that's my biggest issue - not that I'm not willing to give it a chance, but Bryan needs more than DQ wins and such.
ReplyDeleteDDP got beat down a lot as well, but in the beginning, he would escape, and he had his moments. The Savage feud did wonders for him, and it's not like he was winning every week.
Keller killed it, fantastic read.
ReplyDelete'There's patience, and there's "back and forth", and so far, it's been all back, no forth.'
ReplyDeleteguys guys...
just let it play out and see where it goes
cause STORIES
Last time I heard that, Woo Woo Woo jobbed to a spare tire.
ReplyDeletekiller kelled..
ReplyDeletewait, keller kelled...
no, it's killer...
*pop*
*insert family guy flashback*
ReplyDeleteBet Zack would kill to still be in that spot, he can't even get on TV now.
ReplyDeletehe should totally come back with the 'zak zack, lego maniac' gimmick
ReplyDeleteI forget during what part of SS, but Meltzer said someone tried to start a Zack Ryder chant and it went nowhere.
ReplyDeleteHe's buried so badly, the only heat he gets is from the Earth's core.
To expand on Keller's point about how Bryan was portrayed against Big Show, I hated how the commentary team kept saying things like, "just end it, Show!" and implying that Show could have finished Bryan whenever he wanted, but didn't only because of his conflicting emotions and desire not to injure him. The impact of what the commentators say has a huge impact on how viewers perceive the wrestlers, and it drives me nuts when they say shit like that.
ReplyDeleteThere's a difference, though, in Keller reporting a news item and him writing a column. So yes, his columns are going to reflect more of his personal feelings. Though that may have been accentuated in this particular case by Helmsley misidentifying him in that Grantland interview a few weeks back.
ReplyDeleteAnd things won't get better because the faces will only get some firepower when HHH turns on VINCE and Vince leads them to the promised land.
ReplyDeleteGod, you guys bitch and moan about strapping a rocket to one of these young guys backs and let them run rampant through the company... Well, Vince strapped that rocket on the young, up and coming HHH fella and all you ladies are doing is bitching...
ReplyDeleteShow has been turned so many times, how can anyone truly give a shit about him?
ReplyDeleteThis was my concern right when Orton teamed with HHH and Bryan didn't get any revenge the next night. Honestly, he should have cleared the ring with a chair or something (NEVER touching Randy, HHH or Stephanie but pounding a bit on the Shield) and stood tall at the end of that RAW with HHH screaming for bloody revenge. And then off we go. But people said, "Dude, chill...it's week one" yet here we are...still waiting for some comeuppances.
ReplyDeleteAnd if anything, this would be a good place to turn Bryan into a bit of a bad-ass.
ReplyDeleteYeah, but now all the babyfaces know to never be John Cena's friend.
ReplyDeleteI know I don't.
ReplyDeleteTriple H is not the villain in this angle. WWE is. Triple H is a convenient representation because we all hate him already. At least we're invested, which we haven't been in some time. This is not the time to find reasons not to be.
ReplyDeleteHere's the reason I'm not worried.
ReplyDeleteDaniel Bryan already proved to the fans from THE VERY BEGINNING that he deserves to be champion and has proven that he CAN be champion. How? By beating John Cena, clean as a sheet, no bullshit, no outs for Cena. The only reason Bryan isn't champion anymore is because Triple H screwed him.
The fans in the arena and at home know he can beat Randy Orton, they've seen him do it already.
I don't know...I think the Corporation needs to establish domination first. Then in the next chapter, Bryan and other underdogs band together to fight the power. Makes sense to me. I agree that Bryan is getting smacked around a lot for being top babyface, but that's kind of been his act--he's the little guy getting bullied. If he fights the machine, wins the title back clean, and beats HHH, I think the arc works well.
ReplyDeleteIt's true---better writing WOULD NOT have faces Ziggler or Miz (ugh) just standing on the ramp like pussies. If anything, have them get blocked by the Shield or kicked out of the building. Give them SOMETHING to show they have balls like a babyface should. Nope, they stand there and watch just like all the other jobbers up there.
ReplyDeleteBased off the title, I thought this post was going to be about the blog exploding with celebration when I hit 10,000.
ReplyDeleteYou can't wait too long to pay it off. Then its just aces n 8's
ReplyDeleteAustin vs vince
ReplyDeleteYeah lock them out of the building, have all the heels block the ramp...do something other than have every babyface stand there in terror of hhh
ReplyDeleteTrue, but it's nice for the fans to be reminded of that.
ReplyDeleteThe past 6 (7!) shows have seen Orton standing over Bryan. I suspect Bryan will get his hope spot on Monday, and then we'll REALLY see the posts fly.
You know what would've gotten the Corp over as huge heels? Invite all the faces to watch the match on a monitor in the back, then park a forklift in front of the doors so they couldn't help. Then beat the mess out of Bryan and have a camera on the forklift/doors.
ReplyDeleteWatts used to do that from time to time, and crowds ate it up with a spoon.
Yeah this angle is pretty much shit. The big show thing Monday is where it jumped the shark. I'm starting to think its hhh stroke off. And before you say I have to let it play out I watched hhh insert himself into another Indy darlings heat two years ago after summerslam. It-did not end well.
ReplyDeleteYea, I see Bryan and Punk teaming to fight an eventual HHH/Heyman alliance
ReplyDeleteYeah at least don't make it look like the faces won't help because they are too pussy. Lock them out of the ring somehow. But I guess that doesn't get hhh over as enough of a bad ass
ReplyDeleteQuestion - how would you compare this angle to say, maybe......Raven vs. Dreamer? Ignore the "knocking up your rival's girl" and all the other madness. Just from a "babyface faces incredible odds" scenario....how does it compare?
ReplyDeleteRaw got a 2.85 Monday. Its going to drop lower Monday when football starts. I know I'll be going back to just watching smackdown and reading the raw rants/catch highlights in YouTube. So IMO wwe blew their window to hook viewers on this angle. No one wants to see the hhh show, especially when you can watch football instead.
ReplyDeleteThe Raven Dreamer feud went on for years didn't it? This feud has gone for 3 weeks. I'm not sure where the Bryan angle will end, but it's too early to make that comparison.
ReplyDeleteBut based on what we've seen so far, Dreamer at least got lots of licks in on Raven and his cronies, even if he never actually pinned Raven. So far at least, Bryan has not done so. But again, we're comparing a 3 week year old to a feud that lasted a few years.
The big show stuff was stupid on Monday. However, I do think randy is a convincing champion in hos own right. He has won all his matches post summerslam clean, with no interference. And hhh has always been a smart ass heel. Why would that change? And Bryan is still over. I think the hope spots will come soon.
ReplyDeleteAnd what I do like about the angle is that it is unpredictable. Who would have guessed the Cody Rhodes stuff for example?
Keller's line here: "Pro wrestling
ReplyDeleteworks best when the royalty isn't the family ownership of the wrestling
company, but the wrestlers whom fans pay to see fight."
especially his calling the wrestlers Royalty made me think of Japan so much.
Vince is the king in America
Guys like Misawa and Kobashi--and now Tanahashi and Okada, are the kings over there.
I'd be fine with the beat downs if every week we got BRYAN BEAT CENA CLEAN, HE SHOULD BE THE CHOSEN ONE--YOU GUYS ARE EVIL from the announcers or other wrestlers or ANYONE other then Cody Fucking Rhodes
ReplyDeleteWhat's most important is that hhh has a giant match at wm XXX to close the show.
ReplyDeleteIs there some way someone could draw you out to waste your 10,000th on a single F-bomb? Because that would be hilarious.
ReplyDeleteEven in the Attitude era, Austin vs. McMahon, Austin would get the last laugh on one show, then Vince would find some way to punish Austin, get the show's last laugh, then the very next week, Austin would win again. Give and take is what we got week to week. With this, it's all take so far. And if Daniel Bryan gets too many of his gives back, the heels look bad. So I believe it's a fine line there.
ReplyDeleteYeah, the same thing happening 7 shows in a row is REALLY unpredictable
ReplyDelete"The McMahons (including Hunter) are so lost in their rich privileged corporate world that they don't get that the job of wrestling promoters should be portrayed on TV as simply trying to create a stable orderly environment for these tough badass outlaw wrestlers to settle their differences and fight over grudges and the pride of being the best inside a wrestling ring. The idea that pro wrestling has become about the WWE brand and the McMahon Dynasty gifting "athletically inclined sports entertainers" with jobs, without which they'd be pumping gas or unemployed, is a pile of crap that can't be gift wrapped and disguised as anything but a circle jerk for the McMahon Family egos. "
ReplyDeleteSorry for the long quote, but I like this a lot.
He's done it the last 3 years with Byran, Brock, and Punk. Anyone that acts like we as fans shouldn't be wary is naive.
ReplyDeleteAnd by rocket you mean his cock.
ReplyDeleteThread jack: can some movie buff here help me. At lunch a co worker and I saw a marginally famous actor but we can't think of his name or any movie/TV shows hes done but we can both picture him in tons of shit playing cops (like a police captain type role) or maybe a mayor. He looks like a cross between tom skerrit and the late great Denis farinia. We are going crazy trying to think of his name. If you know who I'm talking about please help me.
ReplyDeleteSam Elliott? By the way, I missed Farina dying on us.
ReplyDeleteNo not Sam. But this guy always rocks the mustache and grey hair. His hair is a bit more tight and has more bushyness to it. The dude does look a bit like Sam Elliot too but smaller/beadier eyes...and I can't think of one movie he was in but I know I've seen a few of them.
ReplyDeleteDonald Sutherland?
ReplyDeleteThis dude is much more of a random character actor that people always recognize. I'm losing my mind trying to think of it was.
ReplyDeleteCheck out the list of character actors here. Some are dead.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.460xvr.com/tg/not.htm
Keller makes SOME good points, especially about Show and Ziggler, but the Triple H bashing just screams of the same old same old bashing Triple H has received from internet writers for years. The thing is, a lot of the fans today don't remember Triple H as a heel, he hasn't been one in seven years, and he needs to be established first. McMahon got to be established against Austin LONG before he won the title. McMahon was established in the lead up and immediately after Montreal.
ReplyDeleteAs far as Orton's role, he's perfectly fine as is. He's a paper champion. That's what he's supposed to be in this role. He pinned Bryan for the title without even hitting a single offensive move on him, and has only gotten over Bryan since then by sneak attacking him. And as far as letting him shine on his own on the mic... um... what's my line again?
Except us longtime fans KNOW what hell a HHH heel turn entails, hence why we are fucking reminding the young dumb folks that this can not end well because we fucking remember how it worked the LAST TIME.
ReplyDeleteThose who forget history are doomed to repeat it. There is a reason so many of us have been evoking 2002-2005 to justify our fears that Bryan's going to be sacrificed to the altar of HHH......
Please tell me he's being ironic when he says "I answered a VIP bonus question"
ReplyDeleteGiven the complaints that have been waged against Meltzer in recent years that he stopped giving a fuck about wrestling and spends most of his time and resources covering MMA instead of wrestling, I would not be shocked if the Torch hasn't seen an upswing of subscribers
ReplyDeleteThat was Triple H the wrestler. This is Triple H the authority figure.
ReplyDeleteIf he does get in the ring, he's putting over Bryan clean as a sheet.
I missed the grantland interview; what happened?
ReplyDeleteThe last time I stopped watching wrestling is when WWE became the HHH show. I went to Summerslam super excited. However, the ending turned me off because I knew it would turn again into the HHH show. I saw the fans afterwards feel very dejected because they wanted Bryan to win and that win was taken away from them by HHH/orton. No one there wanted Orton to beat bryan. If bryan had defeated orton right there with a roll-up or at least hightailed it out of there, the fans would have been excited; that would create a better storyline with HHH/orton trying to chase bryan these last couple weeks..
ReplyDeleteLike he did with C.M. Punk? And Brock Lesnar?
ReplyDeleteI tend to have more of a 'wait and see' attitude than the people who wrote off the angle on day one, but I think there's reason to be cynical when it comes to HHH.
I don't know this is literally the first thing I've read of his, though the name has always been familiar. Just thought saying 'I answered a VIP bonus question' sounded a bit stupid
ReplyDeleteThe Triple H match wasn't supposed to happen (yet), as it was originally supposed to be Punk vs. Nash, before Nash had something something wrong with him heart trouble or whatever. They were also trying to get Awesome Truth over as a threat. It was a case of trying to do to much.
ReplyDeleteAlso, Punk kicked out of like three pedigrees, and only lost after the interference from Nash and Awesome Truth.
As for Lesnar, he lost to Lesnar twice out of three matches. One of which was tapping out, clean as a sheet.
Ok, I'll grant you Lesnar.
ReplyDeleteAs for Punk, I don't think the fact that he was scheduled to wrestle Nash before Big Sexy's Chronic Jobberitis flared up again is relevant. The end result was still a similar situation as what you're describing - anti-authority babyface vs. 'authority figure' Triple H. And the end result was not anything resembling HHH putting Punk over clean as sheet.
Punk may have been protected somewhat by Nash and Awesome Truth's involvement - but that is not the same as 'going over clean as a sheet'. All this implies is that if HHH does wrestle Bryan, Orton or the Shield will get involved to help HHH get the victory.
HHH vs Taker 2 was planned all along for WM28 so they wanted to keep him strong.
ReplyDeleteI sent this in so I guess I'll weigh in...I haven't been a BoDer for that long (maybe year-18 months), but haven't ever seen the blog so split over a topic. Both sides of the fence have valid arguments and points on if the heels should consistently be going over, HHH involvement, etc. Its been great discussion.
ReplyDeleteI have no problem with the heels going over consistently, especially while establishing the HHH Orton relationship, but think Keller makes some valid points about the rest of the roster looking weak and Bryan needing to establish some momentum. I think its premature to state whether this angle had done well business wise or not. Nothing they can do outside a huge returning star is really gonna move the TV needle. If night of champions and the following ppv do increased buys or decreased buys will be a better determinant of whether this angle has done well business wise.
I have small issues with HHHs involvement, primarily his insistence on being the cool heel as opposed to being the slimy prick heel, but overall he's been very good. Most of the resentment against him in this role is based on his prior reputation for killing heat and squashing other acts. Ill wait to reserve judgement on this and HHH and enjoy the angle as it unfolds. With all the talk about it, it's still been my favorite angle since Summer of Punk.
It was actually a pretty decent interview on Grantland with HHH and one of the things he did was bury Keller about something he'd supposedly said years ago. Keller disputes it, saying that it was Mark Madden that made whatever quote that set him off. It's not that big of a deal but with Keller's recent laser-like focus on all things anti-HHH, it's gotten a second look.
ReplyDeleteI suppose. I don't really want to debate years old angles. Just trying to explain why so many people are so skeptical.
ReplyDeleteThis just feels like the McMahon-Helmsley Era re-hashed, with Daniel Bryan playing Mick Foley.
ReplyDeleteThey need something fresh. I think Punk leaving with the title was the closest they've come to bold and innovative, and that ended way sooner than it should have.
HHH losing to Punk in that spot doesn't hurt him. He's a legacy guy who had an awesome match with Taker and beat the dominate WM taker onto a stretcher. HHH would have been just as strong for 28 regardless of the Punk outcome.
ReplyDeleteI read my first observer in 1991 and torch in 94. Wade is a great journalist and has followed the industry a very long time. You should definitely give his writing more reads. In a perfect world he would have merged sites with Dave instead of Alvarez, a guy who just gets more annoying with each radio show. Vinny rules though
ReplyDeleteThe endgame of this has to be Bryan being portrayed as a badass ass kicking top level established babyface...NOT as the lovable underdog.
ReplyDeleteThe money with Austin as champ had Vince trying to stack the odds against him the whole time, so you were going to pay to see how Austin would get out of it. From the essentially 2-year Austin v. McMahon feud (March 98-July 99), Austin actually challenged for the title on ppv TWICE. All of the other times he was champion, and Vince or Shane or both were stacking the odds ridiculousy against him and you wanted to pay to see if he could overcome it.
ReplyDeleteWith Bryan, he's not the champion and you know he's going to get screwed, so what's the point of paying to watch that?
That icon and the name...they seem familiar...
ReplyDeleteIt's why I stopped visiting the Torch. It became unbearable years ago. He mentioned "VIP" three times in the first two paragraphs.
ReplyDeleteWe haven't been this split over a topic? Haven't you seen a Bret Hart/Montreal debate?
ReplyDeleteMaybe I'm wrong but it seems like the majority of the blog sides with HBK/Vince in that debate.
ReplyDeleteMan, and I thought we came to a consensus that they were all assholes in that situation, and we just lean slightly one way or another depending on if Bret says something cool or absurd in the past week.
ReplyDeleteI stopped giving a shit about the Torch in like 2001. Their website is a total hackjob, it looks like a Geocities nightmare. Metlzer gives the hard sell for the newsletter in every update (EVERY update) but his site looks mostly professional. And that's better than the Torch anyway.
ReplyDeleteAre you trying to get a job with WWE?
ReplyDeleteI will say I think Michael Cole on commentary is doing a good job in the JR role, but you're right he's not playing up the fact that BRYAN BEAT JESUS H. CENA card.
ReplyDeleteHHH is a king... because he married the princess, though, not because he earned it in the ring like Misawa did.
ReplyDeleteEven though Raven never *lost* he showed A LOT of ass though.
ReplyDeleteA LOT.
I just looked, you are at 9,999 according to my counter, so you better make the next one count.
ReplyDeleteI'm worried that no one who's willing to spend $60 on a ppv has any belief that Bryan has a hope in hell of winning at Night of Champions. When the buy rate comes back, will the reason be becaue it was booked wrong or because Bryan wasn't over as we thought he was? Because the former blames creative and the later blames the little guy.
ReplyDeleteand by backs you meant ass.
ReplyDeleteThat's an over-simplification. Austin was building momentum for A YEAR and Vince sowed seeds in January and February for the big post-Mania heel turn that germinated into that beautiful April ratings victory.
ReplyDeleteAlso, the Sheild are the new Stooges.
ReplyDeleteTHINK ABOUT THAT.
That's a fair point, but let's remember....it hasn't even both a month.
ReplyDeleteWe keep hearing this fear but let's be honest, in the past couple of years how often has the buyrate impacted somebody's standing in the main event scene? When was the last time they absolutely aborted a main event push because a PPV number didn't reach what they had hoped?
ReplyDeleteI can't wait to see you hit 10,000 posts!
ReplyDeleteAll that post-whoring finally paying off.
It'll be like scoring a million points on Guitar Hero.
Raven got his ass kicked up and down arenas.
ReplyDeleteHe just never got pinned by Dreamer.
He lost tag matches, triple threats. Just never pinned.
This guy gets it.
ReplyDeleteI'm glad you posted that.
ReplyDeleteThis is WWE's problem, Underdog stories are great, but they don't grasp that once you win the title you either become dominant (no longer the underdog) or you lose the title quickly and become a fluke.
ReplyDeleteI call perpetual treatment as the "ultimate underdog" regardless of Win/Loss record "Rey Mysterio syndrome"
I feel like there was sarcasm there...
ReplyDeletethere is not.
ReplyDeleteI was about to rip that guy a new one.
HHH isn't just a King, he's the King of Kings.
ReplyDeleteThen I say thank you kind sir!
ReplyDeleteI think it depends on how they view the performer. They did a good job of pushing and keeping Punk to that top tier after the Cena feud. I agree with you in that when Bryan wins the title he can't b be portrayed as an underdog anymore.
ReplyDeletewhich happened in the fall, if i may add
ReplyDeleteThat's the thing--beating Cena CLEAN for the title should make you, PERIOD, yet no one in the company seems to give a shit that Bryan did it. TENSAI's win over Cena was more promoted as a "win over Cena" then this.
ReplyDeleteyou are lucky.
ReplyDeleteRock/Cena 1 was a topic for about 2 weeks.
Were you around for Lesnar/Cena?
Sweet T beat Cena? ARE YOU SERIOUS?
ReplyDeleteI very much thought Bryan SHOULD be the loveable underdog all the way up to pinning Cena at Sumerslam.
ReplyDeleteNow he should be kneeing Mother Fuckers left and Right--Making guys tap or snap, this should be his time--he overcame the odds, now let him enjoy BEING the odds
Skip to ten minutes if you don't feel like watching the whole thing
ReplyDeletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=irjezTonU9s
Do you think Daniel Bryan will get to kick Orton's and HHH's asses all over the arena before he eats a pin to redeem the angle?
ReplyDeleteExactly. That's what's the money is.
ReplyDeleteThey could've saved it for a PPV, but I guess the "Albert" chants were too much.
ReplyDeleteThe more shows that end with Bryan being broken, the more I think he should just win the damn title at Night of Champions (Cody can run interference to cancel out the shield since he can't be fired, Show knocks out HHH because what's ANOTHER turn in his career etc.)
ReplyDeleteHa yea. Could almost great the collective groans. This topic I don't mind discussing because there are valid points on both sides, the Cena/Brock stuff was almost like a therapy session for some...people acted like they had just been traumatized for life
ReplyDeleteGood correction. Very true
ReplyDeleteFlair's departure from WCW with the belt in '91 still stirs up a strong debate, which is kind of funny because the Internet used to be on Flair's side for just about everything. But there's been a marked anti-Flair backlash on the blog.
ReplyDeleteI would hope so, but if (IF) they do a title change, I'd guess it'd be at HiTC or Survivor Series.
ReplyDeleteBut if the rumors are true about Orton being in the title picture until RR, then I have to wonder if DB will get his win at all.
I'm not going to flush this angle down the toilet, but I can't help feeling like Charlie Brown, and Lucy has the football.
Yea, I don't agree with all of Kellers opinions but he is a great journalist. He's very outspent but very objective. He lays out rational well laid or arguments that you have to respect, even if you don't agree with him.
ReplyDeleteSubscribed yo his stuff for awhile, never regretted it
This blog is fascinating to me because it's not Borg like Hivemind with the opinions--but more so then elsewhere we seem to have some very similar opinions
ReplyDeleteThe Raven/Dreamer feud lasted 2-3 years. The Bryan-Orton/HHH feud has been around for three weeks. it's really not fair to make a comparison.
ReplyDeletei don't know how you logically get to Hell in a Cell if Bryan loses at NoC.
ReplyDeleteHHH has ZERO reason to give Bryan a rematch. He has every reason to give one to Orton
Well yeah - but if you want to go talk 'rasslin on the Internet, you're going to go to a place where you can find people who agree with at least some of what you think.
ReplyDeleteOh, that was another thing that surprised me. I took advantage of a free Torch newsletter offer. I was fully expecting a newspaper-like publication. Instead, it was a cheap tri-fold bulletin that you'd get at church, with flawed and inconsistent formatting. It looked like it was just copied and pasted from their website. Highly disappointing.
ReplyDeleteTrue...Things are just so civil here--the comment section is the BEST part, as opposed to the WORST part...like it is at every other wrestling site
ReplyDeleteBrock was an indy darling?
ReplyDeleteTrue. Most people here seem to really know there shit so most of the discussion is gonna be agreeable. Why i like this topic, there are valid arguable points to be made on both sides of the coin.
ReplyDeleteWe need to craft an email to Scott somehow tying the current HHH/Bryan storyline with the Montreal Screwjob, Flair's 91 firing and a John Cena heel turn rolled into one question. That entry will break the comment record.
ReplyDeleteIs 1wrestling.com still a thing? THAT site was a fucking hackjob.
ReplyDeleteI don't get that criticism of Metlzer, I think he does a good job covering both. It's not like there are two big league companies for wrestling. And it's not the Monday Night Wars, either. There's not a ton of news in wrestling to cover like in 1998-2000. WWF + WCW + ECW in those days probably generated as much as WWE + UFC does today.
ReplyDeleteAnd Meltzer is still wrestling historian. That's not a roll he's going to relinquish.
Fair enough, but my question is this: *IS* there enough of an asskicking Orton and HHH can take that will make fans feel better about the pinfall Bryan will ineveitably eat next Sunday? Cause I mean that's the reason Raven/Dreamer lasted three years with Dreamer never getting a pinfall until the very end of the feud.
ReplyDeleteLinda McMahon steps in after NoC to return fairness to the WWE.
ReplyDeleteThere's plenty of ways to get around that- Bryan could lead all the other wrestlers in a walk-out (like the McMahon-Helmsley era), or something like that.
ReplyDeleteLet me continue to the circlejerk by saying that you were correct as well.
ReplyDeleteThey wanted Goldberg to win in JUne, then he pushed it to Summerlsam.
Then pushed it again to the fall.
Problem is, they are both HHH the person.
ReplyDeleteFuck. You.
ReplyDeleteIsn't there a way to have Bryan be the lone wolf without the rest of the roster being made to look weak? I mean, Bryan is kind of a crazy loner asshole. I can see the rest of the guys not wanting to stick their noses in the Bryan/HHH/Orton pissing match and letting it play out without involving everyone else right away.
ReplyDeleteSure there's a way.
ReplyDeleteDON'T HAVE THE WHOLE F'N ROSTER ON THE STAGE AFRAID TO GET FIRED WHILE BRYAN IS GETTING BEAT DOWN.
You are an optimist.
ReplyDeleteNow that you've got me thinking about it, they're might be a reason they're not bringing it up, and that's because they want fans to forget about it.
ReplyDeleteBecause it makes them more money to carry this program as long as they can.
ReplyDeleteYeah, but DID YOU KNOW one time Raw's rating beat a pre-season Monday Night game?
ReplyDeleteI think the big gripe people have is how he will combine MMA matches with wrestling in the Observer awards.
ReplyDeleteHe's an IWC darling.
ReplyDeleteIn 2013 they don't, which is why he shouldn't even have a role in this thing, much less a prominent one.
ReplyDeleteI don't automatically have a problem with them leaving Bryan laying the first three weeks, as long as it goes somewhere in the end. I don't have a problem with the Big Show stuff. The only thing I don't like is gathering all the faces and making them watch with pouts on their faces. Makes them all look like pussies, to be honest.
ReplyDeleteGod, 1,000 times, this. Have Bryan say, "I just beat Cena for the title at SummerSlam, Big Show. If you think that was just a fluke, get in the ring with me and I'll prove myself again." Then have Bryan basically kick his ass (you can have the announcers sell that Show doesn't seem to have his heart in it or something if you want to save him some heat). Do a ref bump, Bryan gets Show in the Yes Lock, Show refuses to tap and passes out, Shield runs in, lays Bryan out, revives Show, Hunter comes down and orders him to use the KO punch. Show punches Bryan, but before he can take the pin the Shield and Orton come in and go to work on Bryan for the DQ. It wasn't about getting show a W, it was about hurting Bryan and sending a message. You simultaneously get Bryan over as a giant killer, save Show some heat with good commentary and not having him tap out, and get good heel heat on the Shield and Orton. Everyone wins. The whole "Please, Show, don't hurt him" thing was bullshit.
ReplyDeleteAgreed 100%, but I don't think they HAVE been portraying him as the underdog since he beat Orton on Raw a couple months back. From there he started going over everyone clean, beat Cena clean, and the last three weeks he's only the "underdog" because he's been getting his ass kicked 4-5 on 1 every week. He's being portrayed as someone they NEED to fight with 3-4 guys because otherwise he'll beat them.
ReplyDeleteI was pleasantly shocked to see Bryan beat Cena not just clean but with an actual finishing move, because I expected a roll up victory which would be clean and a big deal, but easy to write off as "Oh, it was just a fluke, he's the underdog". At the end of the day he made Face Orton tap out and then pinned Cena clean. Granted, they can still turn it into an underdog story, but I honestly don't think they are. Even if he doesn't win the title, as long as he consistently loses due to outside interference, I'm still not sure I'd call him the underdog. If the story they tell is "Bryan had Orton beat for the title but...", then he's not the underdog.
I just found out it was tom Atkins. Best known as the chicks who dies in the beginning of lethal weapons dad
ReplyDeleteNever heard of him. Glad you figured it out, though.
ReplyDeleteYou just know that she'll do a one-off appearance to support Vince in the interest of fairness or anti-bullying or anything else she can use as a soundbite so they can set-up some winner take all thing for Wrestlemania.
ReplyDeleteAdd in how all of this could have bettered the booking for The Invasion
ReplyDeleteSay what you will about how they're booking Daniel Bryan, but Keller's analysis on the rest of the locker room standing on the stage week after week is spot-on. You're completely killing your top faces by neutering them week after week; how are fans supposed to get behind them in their feuds when they're a bunch of pantywaists when it matters most? No support for your faces kills your ability to draw with them.
ReplyDeleteThe skepticism of HHH is well placed for a couple of reasons.
ReplyDelete1) He ALWAYS has to look strong.
2) He probably believes he's the draw in this whole angle.
Vince vs. Austin....Vince understood that fans wouldn't buy him beating Austin one-on-one or doing anything other than taking a righteous shit kicking. So he never had to worry about looking strong. If HHH faces Bryan sure he might job but do you think he's going to beat the hell out of Bryan first and lose by a roll up or some mishandled interference. Anyone really think he'd put Bryan over clean on a move?
Second HHH still believes he's a massive draw. Like he probably believes he's second behind Cena in terms of who the fans want to see. That alone is going to be a major detriment to this angle. I can't believe he doesn't think he's a bigger draw than Orton or Bryan right now this minute and in his mind he's putting them over as Main Eventers through association.
So those are my concerns. Hopefully he'll prove me wrong. I give him credit for great heel work but is it good business, I don't know.
Rebooking Wrestlemania IX so it doesn't suck/has Savage vs. Bret as the main event should probably be worked in there, too.
ReplyDeleteHere's part of he passage in question from the Helmsley interview:
ReplyDeleteI remember Dallas Page coming in. I used to go to the Power Plant every day just to train with Terry Taylor. Page would come in and he'd be so upset because the dirt sheets were ripping him apart all the time. Especially Wade Keller, who was fucking brutal: "Page is a waste of skin. I don't even know why he has a job there." Stuff like that. Page could do no right and it really bothered him. I would say "What do you care? Who cares what he thinks? Just do what you do, man, and worry about if they're cheering or not." But he'd say to me, "You don't understand, man. Bischoff puts a lot of stock into this."
And part of Keller's response:
The story as he remembers isn't at all accurate. The people who said the most negative things about DDP were Bruce Mitchell, currently the senior columnist at PWTorch, and Mark Madden, a former columnist for PWTorch Newsletter who announced for WCW during DDP's rise. DDP, as he has said numerous times in our recent interviews, and I always got along since we were both around near the start of our respective careers in the AWA. The idea that DDP called me and suddenly I "was digging Page," as Triple H said, is just not at all how things happened. First of all, the Torch doesn't speak with one voice. I was an advocate of DDP pretty early once he started showing he could be a great common man babyface character to go opposite of the NWO. All of the back issues of PWTorch Newsletter lay this out.
See, I find this interesting because Helmsley is now openly working the Grantland platform. And for all of the Masked Man's analysis, you can see him being more, shall we say, company-friendly now.
Wow. The storyline has barely played out, and people are bitching already.
ReplyDeleteDaniel Bryan's the focus. Case closed.
If he doesn't "win" the story, fine, they fucked it up like they tend to do. But for Christ's sake, watch the show if you enjoy it, don't watch if you don't.
Personally, I just don't like the modern era but I keep up to date on fun stories like this.
Oh, and Wade Keller's a cunt.
ReplyDeleteAgree with everything here. Nobody can ever get the upper hand verbally on HHH. Not Rock, not Punk, and it certainly won't be Daniel Bryan. HHH learned that from the masters Nash and HBK.
ReplyDelete1. So how come Nash was healthy enough to job to hhh
ReplyDelete2. Bottom line, he booked himself over punk, that's all that matters
You guys are dumb for circlejerking over HHH hate all the time. The feud is new and still getting the crowd fired up.
ReplyDeleteExactly. I can deal with Triple H and Orton, because what we're seeing them do now is at least relatively fresh (they've both been face for entirely too long). I can deal with the Shield in sidekick roles because they've looked strong and they're an important part of the main event storyline. I can deal with Bryan getting beat up every week because he's been presented as the star of the show and he's always in an unfair, outnumbered situation.
ReplyDeleteThe thing that KILLS me, though, is that they're making their entire roster look like a bunch of cowards. The Big Show angle is almost, to a tee, the exact same angle that resulted in his heel turn last time. And does ANYBODY expect this "stand on the stage" thing to end with Dolph Ziggler or the Miz finally crossing the line and getting a huge reaction (which the story SHOULD dictate)? I highly doubt it. We'll either see somebody from the established guard step up (Big Show? Vince? A returning Attitude Era guest star?) or the viewing parties will just end with no proper resolution.
Pop Ups galore!
ReplyDeleteHHH THE COOLEST GUY EVER
ReplyDelete