Scott, I know we've beaten this into the ground but I think I've recently changed my opinion on the HHH/Bryan angle and wanted your opinion.
Im on record as liking the angle as a whole so far, and was trying to be objective about HHHs involvement, and not let his past transgressions impair my judgment of his current role. However, wouldnt it be a much better angle if it were just the hottest babyface in the business (D Bry of course) vs. a well established superstar fresh off a delayed heel turn (Orton obviously.)
Forget all the "is the face taking to much of a beating every week", "does it make the rest of the roster look weak", etc. talk. Wouldnt just a straight up Bryan vs Orto
n
feud work better in your opinion? No, because the whole reason Orton is such an effective heel is that HHH is making him one. If it was just Orton v. Bryan then Orton would get turned babyface by the crowds and negate the whole point.
I have a response to this, but its such a jumbled mess right now.
ReplyDeleteOrton wants to be a heel because he feels he is better suited as a heel (I agree).
Problem is, the paying audience wants to cheer him as a top babyface.
Which he will never be cuz of high profile wellness violations.
So, they stick him in a Corporate champ role with HHH.
Problem is, HHH seems to be getting all the heat and everyone along with him (Shield, Steph and Orton) are getting the residuals.
It seems to me that its setting up HHH/Bryan and not Orton/Bryan as the payoff. Because even if Bryan somehow gets the title off of Orton, the bigger issue is HHH.
Randy Orton is a boring wrestler who is unable to make me care about any feud he is in. If this were Bryan vs Orton above all else, I would not be nearly as interested in it. HHH is the perfect heel for Bryan. I think many are skeptical that HHH will put Bryan over here. It's a perfectly legitimate response based on the evidence, and especially when looking at the 2011 Punk angle. But, I'm optimistic about it, just as I was with Punk up until the weeks after Summerslam that time around.
ReplyDeleteJJ Dillon was more than just a wrestler. He was an artist!!! ...And there was that episode where Dick Murdoch's brainbuster caused Alzado some confusion for the entire episode. It beat watching Small Wonder, that's for sure.
ReplyDeleteHow dare you hate on Small Wonder. How....DARE....you!!!!
ReplyDeleteyeah, small wonder started my saturday morning tv lineup as a kid
ReplyDelete630-small wonder
700-gay ass nick arcade
thats pretty much all i can remember
I, too, have turned around on this angle. The regular beatings of DB have really done nothing to decrease his crowd heat. Let's look at it from a casual perspective, rather than a smark one. I will use Mrs. Stranger as an example, because I have nothing else really: she is a casual fan. She doesn't read the "dirt sheets", doesn't know anything about Triple H's past history with backstage politics, etc. She really hated Triple H when he was a heel in Evolution (when she started watching). When he turned babyface in 2007 and reformed DX, she cheered him. Now, with Triple H as full on heel authority figure, she hates him again. She thinks that what he's doing to Daniel Bryan is mean spirited and she wants to see him get his comeuppance. She roots for Daniel Bryan every week, and when he gets beat down, she says that she hates Triple H, and can't wait to see Bryan beat H's hand-picked champion, Randy Orton. And she adds, "Kick Triple H's ass while he's at it". So, for whatever smarky smarkness we have for this angle, the casual fans, I believe, outnumber ourselves, and I see it working.
ReplyDeleteNick Arcade was great. Unlike Jeopardy I actually knew the answers to the questions.
ReplyDeleteBryan may be getting beat down but he's getting beat down by multiple people at the same time...after fighting them off for a while first. He's facing impossible odds yet still keeps going. His character is becoming more determined by the week, rather than whining and begging for help. Basically, he's everything they want to pass of Cena as, except Bryan can show vulnerability.
ReplyDeleteOnce he DOES start to gain ground, it's going to be huge.
No Nick Arcade was lame as shit.
ReplyDeleteLame host
Lame games
Lame theme music
Lame contestants
Lame video game world
Lame prizes
Arguably, the shittiest show ever made for kids.
Growing up, I knew this. Especially after they came out with GUTS and Legends of the Hidden Temple. Nick Arcade was just terrible.
Nick Arcade was great then, watching it now, I am not a fan. The challenges were way too hard, the kids did not seem to be kids in the know with games, and the final challenge was just a kids running around flailing their arms on a blue screen.
ReplyDeleteI forgot what the show was but there was a better Videogame show that was syndicated around that time.
It was called Video Power. That was a cool show.
ReplyDeleteThis is going to be a crazy question, but I have a distinct memory of a wrestling promotion airing on TSN that had a wrestler who had to wear glasses, and when he took them off he got his butt handed to him. He would then go to his corner, put his glasses on, reset, and try again.
ReplyDeleteTell me this wasn't a weird fever dream and someone recalls this gimmick.
I never thought about crowds turning Orton back face. Isnt there an effective way to keep Orton heel? It should have been Orton hiring the shield as his henchmen...that way Orton is a primary focus of this instead of HHH and Steph.
ReplyDeleteOrton is one of the few legit stars WWE has, fresh off a heel turn. Youd think that vs the hottest babyface in America would be enough to sell this. Orton is behind Bryan, HHH, and Show in whos being spotlighted in this feud. Throw in The Shield and Steph and theyre intentionally/unintentionally (depending on your viewpoint) splitting all the heat that should be solely on Bryan and Orton.
That shit was NOT HARD.
ReplyDeleteI have never been what you call a "hardcore gamer" but at 11-12 years old, I could get 3500pts in 30 seconds in super R-Type.
That's not hard.
Basically Nick Arcade was filled with MRDD kids that had no clue how to look at a screen... and apply what they SEE to what they need to DO NEXT.
Weathermen do it everyday.
Yea, I think youre right that the payoff is going to be HHH, not Orton, getting his comeuppance. Shouldnt it be Orton though?
ReplyDeleteI honestly don't get people complaining about this angle. Has it gotten DB over a face? Yes. Has it gotten Orton over as a heel? Yes. Has it gotten HHH over as heel? Yes. Has it gotten The Shield over as merciless mercenaries? Yes. Has it been compelling television? Yes. WHAT IS THE PROBLEM?
ReplyDeleteMy problem is that if this is there big angle for the fall, they kicked it off too late, because of football season.
ReplyDeletePeople aren't gonna tune into RAW when the Pats play the Saints. (i dont know if they play this year, Im just putting two popular teams together.)
Vince can't counter program football.
So if they go through with this underdog story, the hardcores will watch it, but not pay for the payoff at the PPV.
And the casuals aren't gonna pay for the payoff because they haven't been following it. They will come back for WM.
That's my problem.
I wonder if they got to practice the final round before playing?
ReplyDeleteOrton is just a pawn along the way for the Bryan vs Corporate WWE, the same way Rock was the foil for the bigger Austin vs Vince story.
ReplyDeleteUnder normal circumstances it would be. He used the MITB to cash in, but HHH was the catalyst (lol)... Not Orton.
ReplyDeleteSo really Orton is just the puppet face, while HHH is the real mastermind.
Orton eventually will job, but it won't mean anything to Orton cuz he wasn't the big bad.
Won't mean much for Bryan because his whole focus is HHH, not the title at that point.
I get that part. I truly believe Vince vs Austin was lightning in a bottle. To try and recapture that with this cast of characters isnt the greatest move in my opinion
ReplyDeleteim sure they didnt.
ReplyDeleteIts universal studios Orlando... its 100 degrees in July, 95% humidity.
You and your family have been walking around all morning and early afternoon. You see that they are taping Nick Arcade... its air conditioned.
You walk in, sign a release form, so you won't sure them if your child gets hurt and you are sitting down in the AC for about an hour while you watch your kid fail your family at video games and simple trivia.
Its a step in the right direction.
ReplyDeleteIf you are gonna copy storylines... at least copy storylines that made money.
They should go the "Steve Austin in the Alliance" route and give Orton new, generic, heat-killing entrance music. Not that "Voices" is why Orton is over, but it does get him a pretty big entrance pop, which realistically shouldn't be happening for a top heel (then again, a top face probably shouldn't be getting booed all the time, but Cena has pretty much broken the mold).
ReplyDeleteSo they should have started it before Cena got injured and was going to drop the belt? Or waited until after the royal rumble?
ReplyDeleteShould they just not run any shows from September through December?
I agree with everything you just said. My annoyance with this angle is Orton vs Bryan could be great without all this peripheral crap. Yea it was huge once with Austin and Vince but in my pinion, that was the perfect storm of characters and circumstances.
ReplyDeleteJust gimme a freshly turned Orton, maybe aligned with the Shield, vs a red hot Bryan for the title. Get rid of Show, HHH, Steph and everything else
From what I read Cena has been working through lingering injuries for a while. They could have started the Bryan push a little earlier.
ReplyDeleteAgain, Your number 1 babyface is down for 4-6 months I believe and your number 2 babyface is off in another storyline that hasn't intersected (if it ever does idk)
So on top you have two heels and unproven (red hot) babyface on top. Ratings plummet, who gets the blame? It wont be HHH, and by proxy Orton.
It'll be Bryan.
I am all for Bryan being the focus of the show, I just feel with Cena out, to prop up business, its very ill-timed. I don't want a subsequent depush to happen because they attribute falling ratings on Bryan, because he is carrying the show during football season.
I think you're jumping waaaaaaay ahead.
ReplyDeletehow you figure?
ReplyDeletedoes ratings go down every year during football season?
I think people should judge this angle in a vacuum and stop saying its gonna be successful because it worked with Vince and Austin. That was the perfect storm of circumstances and characters. At one point Vince, Rock, and Austin were all involved... 3 of the biggest acts OF ALL TIME, along with Taker and the great Pat Patterson and Gerald Brisco (two of the most underrated wwe acts ever.) Sure they werent megastars at the time of their involvement but they were on their way and could have gotten anything over at that point. Im not saying this angle will or wont work, but assuming things based on how awesome Austin vs Vince was is a premature.
ReplyDeleteI would hope that they realize that its not one person's fault and blame it on them.
ReplyDeleteone would hope.
ReplyDeletei have read too much tom zenk in my day.
Call me pessimistic and tell me to wait until it all plays out but in the end I'm sure John Cena will save the day. Bryan's Mankind in this remake.
ReplyDeleteTo be fair, Tom Brady > John Cena.
ReplyDeleteDear Letter Writer,
ReplyDeleteWere you watching WWE during the "Age of Orton"?!? Randy Orton is not a compelling enough heel to carry a main event angle like this. This storyline is a big deal, and could have major repercussions to the WWE Main Event Scene for the next 5 years. Main Event Heel Randy Orton doesn't suck, but he's nowhere near what they need right now. HHH is the right choice, both kayfabe and non-kayfabe.
I love the dynamics of this feud (HHH at the top, Orton as his corporate champ, Shield as Hired Goons), and don't see it being as interesting as straight up Bryan/Orton.
To be fair, the "Age of Orton" didn't get its real steam until it ended.
ReplyDeleteWhen he walked out of WM24 against HHH and Cena, a lot of people were like "didnt see that coming.... maybe there is something to this Orton fellow."
But then he went down with an injury for the summer and came back in the fall as over as he has ever been.
The episode of Small Wonder where the girl spun Jesse Ventura over her head was money.
ReplyDeleteI remember watching Nick Arcade and hoping they would have some better games - almost every time I watched it was the same shitty line-up.
ReplyDeleteI wonder if this is where Matt Striker got the idea to moonlight as a pro wrestler from his teaching job...?
ReplyDeleteYup, the voices opening sort of gets an automatic reflex pop. They 100% should change it. My vote is to just straight up steal the old Lex Luger narcissist theme:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iK0cjTfbQTw
Super boring, pompous theme that you can't help but hate on. Especially if they play it up with a darkened arena and just a single spotlight on Randy as he walks down the aisle. He'd come off as a King Douche.
So using your logic, HHH should be in the top heel spot because he was a really exciting heel from 01-04?
ReplyDeleteI don't know, there's just something about a douchey entrance that I just can't hate. The slow-mo JoMo entrance, Chris Masters with the cape, pyro and poses in time with the music, even Rob Conway's entrance had a certain charm to it. And on NXT, I'm pretty much a mark for Tyler Breeze's entrance.
ReplyDeleteOf course, those are all midcard entrances, so I suppose the point is moot. And hey, I wouldn't mind a return of 1993-era entrance themes. As a kid, I always enjoyed the hell out of Crush's theme. Well, the intro anyway.
Overall I think turning HHH and pitting him against Bryan is the right move, of course with the internet caveat that "this has to end with Bryan cleanly beating Orton AND Trips". And unlike other people here, I do still think Bryan goes over in the end— I don't see him going over Cena clean unless they had huge plans for Bryan. I really really think that they have huge plans for Bryan as the top face, so I have faith in the storyline. And honestly, HHH is a way more meaningful and compelling villain for Bryan than Orton ever could be on his own. Orton alone is just as vanilla as it gets— the corporate angle is what's making this thing feel like a big deal.
ReplyDeleteTHAT SAID....
I think HHH's segment Friday on Smackdown was him at his absolute heat-killing worst. Up until last week I thought Trips was doing a awesome job of playing the heel that only cared about making people hate him. But that town hall shit on Friday was an example of everything that could go wrong with this angle. WHY was Trips basically playing to teh crowd by shitting on 3MB and Sandow? What's the point of the snarky "I've been waiting for you to call me dude" line at RVD? It's those too smart for their own good asides that will confuse the audience and give HHH "cool heel" heat rather than create actual hatred, and it's the pure hatred that will get this angle over.
Again, Triple H really needs to study what Vince was doing at the height of the Mr. McMahon era— everything he said/did was designed to make him look like a supreme asshole. Not a "cool asshole", just an asshole. One would think that an old school fan like Triple H sees the difference, but then you get a situation like Friday when he's obviously begging for cheers. So weird.
HHH is an awesome heel. Heel Orton doesn't have anything as good as the McMahon-Helmsley Regime or the entire Batista feud (where HHH MADE a superstar... hmmm I wonder if that experience would come in handy?).
ReplyDeleteJeez man, Randy Orton is not an unknown. The guy has been a main eventer for almost a decade, and a heel for most of that time. What has he done that makes you think he's a better (or "more exciting") choice than HHH?
Besides, beating HHH is a much bigger deal than beating Randy Orton. Case in point, Bryan made Orton tap out clean like 2 months ago and no one seems to remember.
Exactly. I think Orton is currently in the most suitable role he's ever had in WWE. He's the blank douchebag villain who doesn't have to carry the personality part of the program. Orton can go out there, look douchey, put on great matches, and let someone else do the heavy lifting of building major heat.
ReplyDeleteOrton's not a lead babyface. He's not a lead heel. (Age of Orton...snore.) He's a perfect evil corporate champion.
And especially with the two strikes on him, this is pretty much his best case scenario.
100% agree. I'm a HHH fan, but even I'd say he tries to get too cute/funny/smart sometimes when it's not appropriate.
ReplyDeleteI'm a firm believer that wins/losses don't mean that much, so I didn't agree when people bitched about Punk jobbing to HHH in 2011, since it was a *very* protected loss. IMO what hurt Punk in that feud was that HHH a) didn't play heel and b) made too many good points. He'd call Punk a whiner and then use facts to prove himself right. It's like... just let the young, hot superstar be RIGHT even if he isn't, you know? That's what's "best for business".
Steph seems to also suffer from that need to be the smartest person in the room.
Doesn't the fact that they had Bryan beat Cena clean (first guy in 5 years and joining the ranks of HHH, Batista, and HBK I believe) make you think that this storyline is about Daniel Bryan and not John Cena?
ReplyDeleteYUP. Heels are not supposed to win the debates. They're supposed to cling to obviously ridiculous opinions/statements that everyone in the crowd KNOWS are wrong. HHH on Friday though was too often saying things that people in the crowd could agree with. "Sandow is kissing too much ass." "3MB you are ridiculous." "RVD sounds like a dope for saying dude all teh time." He should have sincerely thanked Sandow and 3MB for agreeing with him. And he should have LET IT BOTHER HIM that RVD was calling him out on his shit.
ReplyDeleteAs for the Punk-HHH feud, it's incredible in retrospect that Punk managed to stay so over as a face after what happened that Fall. I mean, I get that the Punk face turn was NOT part of their original plan, but like you said that bizarre face vs face feud with Triple H seemed designed to kill it dead. I really think that the title win at Survivor Series being at MSG really reignited Punk's face heat. You could feel it dying a bit on Raw after those awful HHH and Awesome Truth and Del Rio feuds, but then the Garden just was totally apeshit for Punk winning the belt that it made him seem like a huge star again.
George "The Animal" Steele was a teacher (or gym coach or something) who moonlighted as a pro wrestler as well.
ReplyDeleteI like to think that Striker remembered this show and used it as his reasoning. "Well, Lyle Alzado got away with it!" But George Steele's career probably had more to do with it.
ReplyDeleteAs an aside, my great-uncle has an uncanny resemblance to George Steele and, for the longest time when I was a kid, I thought they were the same guy. I always cheered The Animal on loudly whenever he was on TV.
To be fair, Tom Brady > Pretty Much Everybody Except Maybe George Clooney.
ReplyDeleteQuestion worth asking: how different is post-Summerslam if they don't have to junk their plans because of Nash's plavix?
ReplyDeletePeople pop for Orton's music and the RKO. Orton is still largely acting like he did when he was a face. If Orton stopped doing the snake thing to hype the crowd I have a feeling his face stuff would die down.
ReplyDeleteOne aspect I really like about Orton's reign so far is that he's getting decisive wins over midcarders while still giving them a bit of a rub for "hanging with him". I don't like when WWE has their champions only beat clearly inferior opponents due to cheating/luck/interference.
ReplyDeleteSome people are incapable of being satisfied? Nothing gets 100% support but I have some friends who have acted incredibly markish about the whole thing. I had a friend who said he was never going to watch the WWE again because Orton won the title. Do I hate Orton and want to see Daniel Bryan tap him out? YES! Do I want to pay money to do it? Duh. THAT'S THE POINT.
ReplyDeleteYeah, this needs HHH w/ Orton as his Corporate Champion. Orton really gets the nuclear heel rub on that.
ReplyDeleteNot sure what happened, but my reply to you has apparently disappeared. To sum up, didn't get to watch smackdown this week due to overloaded dvr. So I can't defend that segment.
ReplyDeleteTwo of those things--Daniel Bryan and The Shield--happened without this angle, for the record. So it hasn't "gotten" them over. HHH and Orton have always been good to great heels when they chose to be, so it's not like this storyline has created anything new. It's a retread of the McMahon-Helmsley era, circa 2000.
ReplyDeleteWith that being said, the first two weeks after Summerslam were compelling times. But by Week 3, they kind of screwed the pooch by introducing HHH as Poochie.
What is the problem? Have you not been listening or reading to anyone's complaints? There are plenty of problems with this storyline making too many guys look weak while focusing too much attention on a past-his-prime part-time wrestler in HHH.
I'm on the fence with this angle, and it won't surprise me if it raises Bryan and couple of others (Cody or Ziggler) to new heights or if it goes downhill in short order.
DB was over. However, this has gotten even more over. His reactions are even greater now. And The Shield was fairly directionless a month ago. Now they're hanging with main eventers again.
ReplyDeleteI have been listening to the complaints. That Hunter hasn't gotten comeupance three weeks into the angle. Which is silly. This isn't a hotshot angle. This should last them the rest of the year. You can't have the underdog getting the upperhand in the opening credits.
And Randy Orton is prominently involved... Never a good sign.
ReplyDeleteOn the flip side, I think people saying this isn't going to be successful because of how the Summer of Punk have to calm down. Granted, they probably should have considered what to do if Nash couldn't perform but I think that greatly altered the angle.
It was on CTV on Friday nights before Checking It Out with Don Adams (Maxwell Smart) as a grocery-store manager albeit I don't recall if that show was set in Canada or not.
ReplyDeleteI keep harping on this, but Orton has never made a guy in his career. He's one of the most selfish wrestlers I've ever seen. Orton got over after five years of a push that seemed to never end.
ReplyDeleteAlso, I hate that they had to redo the Orton-Bryan match because it turned into a stupid hardcore match. I know it was clean within the confines of the match, but Daniel Bryan still needed a kendo stick.
HHH just doesn't like to show ass on the mic. Sometimes it works, but especially when he's a face it's insufferable.
ReplyDeleteI was more into Double Dare and Fun House back then.
ReplyDeleteI don't know, watching his match with Cody on RAW last week, his whole sucking up to the crowd thing went over really well -- in a heelish way, I mean. There were some cheers, but the boos definitely seemed louder to me, and his Scott Hall-esque dead eyes and contemptuous twist of the lips as he mouthed "come on" was great.
ReplyDeleteOrton versus Bryan wouldn't work too well IMO. Orton plays a good silent and sinister heel, but this angle demands something more than that. More gloating, more back-and-forth promos, more PERSONALITY. Orton couldn't cut a competent extended promo to save his life. He's great as a corporate pawn but as the main villain? No way.
ReplyDeleteKendo stick or not, the fact that a babyface of Orton's standing tapped to a guy like Bryan is a big deal.
ReplyDeleteI can understand not liking Orton's work/performances, but is he "selfish"? Not at all.
When did Orton ever put someone over like Cena has done with Punk and Daniel Bryan? Watch a match with Orton, when the focus is getting someone else over the quality dips quickly. Watch his "stupid, stupid, stupid" outburst at Kofi.
ReplyDeleteNot really, with Cena being hurt it doesn't hurt him to lose clean to anyone since it'll be forgotten by the time he comes back and it would've been stupid to have Bryan win in screwy fashion only for Orton to come down and win in screwy fashion. Bryan over-coming Cena clearly just puts more heat on Orton/HHH for screwing him out of his moment immediately afterwards. Plus the timing of the whole thing - this is supposed to last until Wrestlemania and I don't see Bryan being *the* top face until then, especially if Cena is coming back for the Royal Rumble.
ReplyDeleteMark Henry and Daniel Bryan. If you want to give Cena credit for Bryan (and he absolutely does deserve credit for putting over D-Bry), then you should give Orton credit for helping put over Henry. I'm also not sure how the WWE not highlighting his loss by tapout to Bryan is Orton's fault.
ReplyDeleteWas that show called Starcade by any chance? That's the only 80's videogame game show that I remember besides Nick Arcade.
ReplyDeleteOrton then lost the title the next month... I think it was a while yet before Orton hit his stride as a heel. Around Wrestlemania 25.
ReplyDeleteYou're pessimistic. (Doesnt mean you're not wrong....)
ReplyDeleteOsiris,
ReplyDeleteHow many times did Vince get his comeuppance in the angle with Austin? I know they aren't the same characters, but Daniel Bryan has been beaten down at the end of EVERY SHOW since this started, barely getting the upper hand against anybody. There's booking him like the underdog and then booking him like Barry Horrowitz.
Voices does psyche me up when it's time to work out. I'd totally use it as my real life entrance music (in real life, I'm a heel).
ReplyDeleteIt can be both. DB beats Orton for the title at Hell in the Cell, beats HHH the following month.
ReplyDeleteIt's been three weeks. And he gets beat up by like 6 people. Not exactly Horowitz.
ReplyDeleteSo is/was Robbie E. Now he gets to bang Ms. Tessmacher...
ReplyDelete..bastard.
Haven't they been trying this for years? Hell when Cena came to Raw way back in 2005 Bischoff wanted him to "play ball" or something and when he didn't Bischoff started trying to screw him out of the belt.
ReplyDeleteI disagree, he hit his stride way before that.
ReplyDeleteit was walking out of Orlando the champ. it really sold a lot of people and made that title run legit.
lol low down there...
ReplyDeleteCompletely agree - the angle certainly isn't perfect, but it'd be a hell of a lot worse if it were just Orton carrying the heel side.
ReplyDeleteI wanted to go on Fun House so bad. (Not that I thought I'd be any good, I just wanted the chance to punch the host in the face. I hope JD Roth is is prison getting violated right now.)
ReplyDeleteHHH should absolutely be Orton's endorsing Corporate rep. I would have them team up for next ppv. HHH & Orton vs Punk & Bryan. Heyman gets beat down by Punk at NOC, joins up with HHH out of self-preservation, as catalyst for Punk throwing in with the other rebels against the Corporation.
ReplyDeleteSo, to clarify, you replied TWICE to say you have nothing to say?
ReplyDeleteI like the general idea of reviving the corporation, but they are going about it the wrong way. The corporation is powerful to the point where all the faces are completely helpless. It makes it hard to root for anyone. Was there ever time in 1999 where Stone Cold was left knocked out in the middle of the ring for three Raws and Three smackdowns in a row? No, it happened every once in a while, but they made him look tough overall. They aren't doing that with Bryan. They need to give people a reason to root for him. They also need to give people a reason to root for some of the other faces. Literally noone is standing up to the corporation at all. In 1999 Stone Cold, Mankind, DX, and Later the Rock after he was kicked out stood up to the corporation. Even other heel factions like the Ministry of Darkness battled the corporation People were given reasons to root the faces. I'm having trouble finding reasons to root for Bryan, Cody Rhoades, Dolph Ziggler, or the Big Show. That's the problem, and that why Night of Champions will have a terrible buy rate. Hopefully Bryan doesn't get the blame.
ReplyDeleteUgh, Steph is the worst because at least Triple H has SOMETHING to offer. How about when AJ won the Divas title and in her first appearance as champion is immediately brought down to size by Stephanie McMahon. Then when Kaitlyn makes what should have been a triumphant entrance, SHE'S then brought down to size by Stephanie as well.
ReplyDeleteNow that you mention it, I really can't think of any time that he's been bested in a promo.
ReplyDeleteOooh, I love that idea but feels way too soon. I like that match for Survivor Series.
ReplyDeleteI'm sure one could argue that Edge didn't make anybody, but it's a wonder how differently he acted as a heel opposed to Orton. Edge was a lot less selfish. He always made it seem like he barely escaped out of the match..
ReplyDeleteThe Rock, that's really it.
ReplyDeleteHell, he even belittled Austin completely on the mic in 2003 when Austin was named "Sheriff" of Raw.
Pretty much.
ReplyDeleteLook how many times Rock or Foley got beaten down by the McMahon-Helmsley Regime in 1999-2000.
ReplyDeleteA lot.
This was my email and am way too drunk and have way too much money on an Eagles/over tease to respond individually. Ill read these and formulate a response soon. One thing I know is maybe ive overestimated Ortons ability to be a stand alone heel from the brief comments I read.
ReplyDelete...Really? "Heat-killing"?
ReplyDeleteWithout a shadow of a doubt, Triple H is the most thoroughly dissected topic of wrestling in internet history. Every word and move he makes is gone over with a fine-tooth comb and every fraction of minutiae is inspected for evidence of backstage shadiness.
A shit-tonne of heels have verbally put down others. Rock, Flair, Austin and Shawn did it. Triple H is staying true to the tenets of playing a heel by being a smarmy prick.
But I get it, he's not Mr. McMahon-Lite so the storyline is being sabotaged.
If there was no HHH and no Shield and no McMahons and only Bryan vs Orton, it would be the same old crap which they did the last 8 years or so and it would be just another feud. Now with HHH and Shield and McMahons it's IMO the best thing since the evolution or even the nWo.
ReplyDeleteYour missing the point I'm making. Yes, Orton is not a legacy player and isnt on the same level as HHH. He is enough of a star that he could hold his own in a straight up Orton vs Bryan feud. A straight up wrestling feud over whos the best is still an effective way to draw heat, especially with a hot ass Bryan.
ReplyDeleteYea, it might not be quite as intriguing, but at least the heat would be solely on Orton and especially in Bryan. The angle we have now is like an ADD angle, the heats primarily on HHH, but being split with the shield, Show, Orton, HHH, and Steph. Plus were all cynical that HHH will do whats. best in the end. If Ortons heel turn flops and Bryans heat suddenly fades, this angle will be the reason why.
Going with a straight Orton/Bryan feud wouldnt have all the peripheral stuff but woud be effective.
This was my email and it seems that nobody agrees with me but think your missing the point im making
ReplyDeleteYes, Orton is not a legacy player and isnt on the same level as HHH. He is enough of a star that he could hold his own in a straight up Orton vs Bryan feud. A straight up wrestling feud over whos the best is still an effective way to draw heat, especially with a hot ass Bryan.Yea, it might not be quite as intriguing, but at least the heat would be solely on Orton and especially on Bryan. I dont believe a freshly turned Orton couldnt be an effective heel.
The angle we have now is like a wrestling angle for those with ADD, the heats primarily on HHH, but being split with the shield, Show, Orton, HHH, and Steph and all this other shit that distracts from what the main focus should be... cementing Bryan. Plus we're all cynical that HHH will do whats best in the end. If Ortons heel turn flops and Bryans heat suddenly fades, itll be becauae all the peripheral shit got in the way of doing what needed to be done. Like seriously, does fucking Big Show have to be involved just to draw heel heat to HHH?
.Going with a straight Orton/Bryan feud wouldnt have all the peripheral stuff but woud be effective.
Listen, I'm actually someone who for the most part is loving this evil HHH/Corporation 2.0 angle. I like the concept of the heel turn, I think having Orton play HHH's lackey is a good idea, and I believe it will lead to Bryan becoming a bigger star and all that jazz. I'm on board.
ReplyDeleteBut I think the Smackdown town hall segment was a clear example of where this shit could totally go wrong. That show was about HHH looking to get the crowd on his side. He was trying to be the coolest guy in the room by putting down the "geek" heels like 3MB and Sandow, rather than siding with them as a way of making fans dislike him. And he no-sold RVD's promo and put him down in a way that makes HHH seem cool rather than like a dick.
I'm not saying that HHH needs to be a Mr. McMahon clone. And I definitely think Bryan shouldn't be ripping off Stone Cold's act— it wouldn't fit him at all. But I definitely think for this to work HHH absolutely has to learn from what Vince did and start "showing some ass." That doesn't mean HHH has to get beat up every week and have Bryan stick an enema up his ass. But he absolutely has to stop trying to be the coolest guy in the room, or else guess what: the babyfaces won't look cool. He needs to start siding with the uncool heels, and he HAS to start letting the faces bother him. He can't fucking no sell everything that Bryan or the faces say and do. I mean, look at that exchange last night with Edge— he fucking no sold everything and ate Edge up. Yeah the crowd was still on Edge's side, but again HHH came off like the cool guy. Either he has to go full heel and stop worrying if the crowd "looks up to him", or he should have just stuck with his shitty face persona. He can't halfway this, or it'll undercut all the faces.
People get your point, dude, we just don't agree with it.
ReplyDeleteYou think Orton/Bryan straight up is a better storyline to get Daniel Bryan over as a permanent Tippy Top Guy. Okay. We say that's crazy, and we have 5 years of Randy Orton main event heel work to fall back on.
HHH is a more compelling character (to both smarks and marks) than Orton, he's a better talker, and beating him means more than beating Orton (which Daniel Bryan JUST DID). HHH's heel turn is also more shocking and noteworthy than Orton's (since he'd been a face for 7 years as opposed to Orton's 3).
And keep in mind we haven't even discussed Orton being 1 strike away from getting shitcanned. This setup means even if Orton gets hurt/fired, they can just move the title onto HHH's new avatar.
They know they've got something special with Daniel Bryan, they want to get him to that next level. These next 4 months are fucking HUGE, and you want to entrust that responsibility to a guy that is (at best) average on the mic? Cause to get a guy to that top level you need a great story, and to get a great story you need great talkers (i.e. Punk, Cena, and Vince in Summer 2011), and that isn't Randy Orton's strong suit.
Well disagree on this one. Ill trust Orton as the opposing Bryan heel before I trust HHH.
ReplyDeleteBut you had too many straign one on one feuds over the last YEARS!
ReplyDeleteDon't you miss the Attitude or nWo times, where many guys where involved in the main feuds? That was made us want to see the next episode and since Summer Slam, I have that feeling which was lost a long time ago.
Some say, that we see the same things in every RAW show since then, but I say, we had the same shit in every show since 2005. NOW since Summer Slam, every show was different. Every show had another red line which went from beginning to the end.
The last time WWE was as good as today, it was after Survivor Series 2004 or even going back to the Invasion.
I agree with what you're saying about "cool" heels, but it was one segment on SD. Other than that, HHH's heel run thus far has been devoid of cool-ness.
ReplyDeleteI do, however, disagree with the Edge/HHH thing. Yes, Trips didn't look too bothered by Edge's comments at first, but their subsequent backstage segment showed that he was clearly pissed off and lost his usual smugness.
Fuck that guy.
ReplyDeleteBrady, that is.