So apparently, people online got up in arms when Dave Meltzer stopped just short of calling AJ a mark for getting the date of her Divas title win tattooed on her neck, since she was getting hyped up about winning the same title that "Debra McMichael and Sable won".
After people came to AJ's defense on the WO/F4W message boards about seeing nothing wrong with a woman wanting to mark the date of a dream she had since childhood, Meltzer responded:
"On the A.J. thing, this is going to break some hearts, but people who run wrestling companies laugh at wrestlers who are "belt marks" for undercard belts, especially when it comes to a pass-around belt vs. a main event belt that is given with the idea the person with it is anchoring business.
Promoters throughout time feel that there are the guys who want to be paid and the guys who want a belt and they can pay whatever they want to them as long as they give them a make-believe pass-around belt.
In both TNA and WWE there is that designation, given a few times a year from both sides in conversations that reference, which goes back longer than I've been following wrestling, has been around. One group is considered pros and the other group is considered fans who are on the roster and the belief is you can treat them very differently. There is an old saying about the latter group that you throw them a fish and watch them jump.
For ones own career, even if they consider it an accomplishment, if you want respect, you don't sell it publicly behind the scenes, only in fake media interviews and on TV.
Again, the world title (or the main event belt in any territory) is viewed entirely differently (although people who don't like Bret Hart would knock him over the same subject, but those people probably were going to find something to do that about either way, given I never heard anyone except Bockwinkel in fun, knock Harley Race over the same thing). I know of stories where someone in the industry will bring up to Lawler about all the belts he's won over his career and he immediately gives then a glare like they have no understanding of the business."
But the drama continued later, with Meltzer further clarifying his position after people wondered why it's such a bad thing to show passion about achieving milestones in your chosen profession.
"I know this is all silly and stuff, but when people bring up guys who win the Olympics or "If Ronda Rousey did it" winning the UFC title like it's the same thing is just weird.
When Brock Lesnar was asked, what was the biggest thing to him, winning the NCAA title, the WWE title or the UFC title, his response was, "One of those wasn't real."
If a child who wanted to be a doctor growing up ending up getting a minor part in a movie, when he had previously had bigger parts, where he played a doctor who won a fictitious scripted Nobel Prize for Medicine, and then announced he was getting a tattoo to commemorate his getting a Nobel Prize, the highest honor possible and greatest accomplishment in his life, what do you think the real world would think?
Why they'd say, of course that's great, because there was nothing higher he could do in his career then win a Nobel Prize in a small movie role that somebody scripted for him.
And the people who bring up he's had bigger parts and that it was scripted would be decried because they are the ones out of touch with the real world."
So what do you think? Are you Team Meltzer or Team AJ?
Im starting to hate how Meltzer sets the tone for wrestling. Nobody would have given a fuck about AJs tat, now the "smart" fans narrative is gonna be this.
Like seriously who gives a fuck behind the meaning of AJs tattoo. Yea its a fake sport but its still an accomplishment within the profession to win a title. Were people criticizing HBK after WM 12? What about Austin in Philly? They still put tons of work and dedication into their craft and should be proud of being given the title.
AJ, what exactly bigger belt does he expect her to win? Grow a Chyna between her legs and go after Orton? For a kid that grew up rough and wanted to be in this business, she's at the top of the part of the business she can be in. Not her fault she's a cute pixie.
I don't get the backlash on people that actually enjoy what they do. These examples aren't the greatest, because they don't back it up in the ring or character development wise, but Ryder and Miz both enjoyed the hell out of their pushes, both were major fans of the sport...both shit on....Yeah, they have deficits, but there's been plenty of comments related how they're marks for themselves.
It's just fucking weird, if somebody wins the Superbowl, you expect them to say they're going to Disney.
Yet, if somebody does well in wrestling, people want them to sulk and wish they were in UFC or boxing or some other "legit" endeavor? Frigging weird.
I'll never not be on Team AJ. Let's just put it this way--AJ is the most successful Diva since Trish or possibly Sable. She has risen up in the view of staff, been in prominent roles throughout the last 18 months, has put on the best Divas matches during that time frame, has her own merchandise which appears to be a hot seller, is capable of cutting a pipebombshell promo, and has the most "followers" on Twitter of any WWE female. She's a smart woman with a good feel for the business.
With that being said, I really don't get the doctor analogy. AJ never wanted to be an amateur champion over wwe champ (real doctor over fake doctor in the analogy). She wanted to be WWE's champion. That was her dream. She accomplished her dream. And her title is like her Oscar win. I just hope--for her sake--there are many more titles to come or a long-ish title reign for this one to make that tat mean something more.
With that being said, fans of the wrestling do get treated differently than the politicians of wrestling.
I have no idea. Dave and Bryan's memories are so frequently and hilariously wrong that it wouldn't surprise me for them to just assume it had been and equate the two.
Exactly, honestly it's why wrestling can never truly break into the main stream and stay there. It's not fringe, but there's a lot of self hate involved with the fans, wrestlers, and even Vince with all his side projects to be a "legitimate promoter".
-Toga party, 1993 -Fired after a bout with Bell's Palsy -Had a horrible angle bringing back Diesel and Ramon (but JR made the most of it, I thought) -Had the uncomfortable angle with Cole and Dr. Death in 1999 -Had WCW's Oklahoma provide potshots -Member of Vince's Kiss My Ass club (I think) -Fired in 2005 and had the stupid rectal surgery skit performed by one Vincent K. -Got publicly demoted in 2008 during the Draft episode (although JR spoke to my brother about it at the time and they were trying to get Smackdown on another station and thought he had better name value at the announcer's table) -The entire year of Heel Cole bashing JR
-The annual or bi-annual Oklahoma beatings by anyone from Jack Swagger to Steve Austin.
Yep. You hear all the time that the Clique rode together because they loved the business so much and couldn't stop talking about how to make things better and THAT'S why they made it to the top in this business.
Yet, guys more looked at as fans--say, Edge and Chris Jericho--maxed out every bit of potential they could despite always losing every big main event they were in. To this day, it's hard to say they were ever really recognized as much as they should have been.
I have no horse in the race but Meltzer comes off as a major toolbag with this, in my opinion. The woman is a bonafide wrestling geek who is essentially at the top of the mountain that she's allowed to be on: she's champion, she's had high-profile storylines involving main-eventers, and she's one of the most featured players in terms of advertising and marketing.
It personally comes across to me as a bit silly to get a tattoo about it, especially on your neck, but I can certainly see the justification about it. Yeah, titles are props and the reason Jerry Lawler rolls his eyes about his endless titles is because he booked himself to win them in a mostly small-time promotion and never did anything, wrestling-wise, worth a damn in the big time.
1: Not his fault by any means. 2: Vince is an ass. 3: Vince is a bigger ass. 4: Vince is an even bigger ass. 5: Vince Russo and Ed Ferrara should be enemaed with hydrochloric acid. Not just for that, but it's part of the indictment. 6: Vince is still an ass. 7: Vince is still a bigger ass. 8: Vince BLAH BLAH ass. 9: Do I really need to spell it out? 10: Sigh. Fine, Kevin Dunn is a piece of shit. Not literally, although a literal piece of shit still is less worthless than him. (Vince is an ass is played out by now.)
Enough of us here consider that A: What JR did for three companies (Mid-South, NWA/WCW, and WWF) at the desk was usually outstanding, and sometimes iconic; and B: JR is a pretty damn cool guy just following orders. Or being teased "behind his back".
I agree. It's just something else when you had to look at what he had to endure and/or overcome over the years. A remarkably strong-willed and strong-minded man.
I was just about to ask the same thing. Tats on the back of neck usually look nice (on women, anyway), tats on the throat make you look like you just got out of prison.
I'm not sure I'd call this "riding off into the sunset." Why retire now? You'd think if it was up to him, he'd be some part of Wrestlemania 30 in some capacity. Even if he only called one match like the Undertaker match or something. Strange...
Good for him! Though it isn't like it will make any difference to the common fan, he'll stick to the company line on his blog I'm sure, he'll make rare appearances here and there... shouldn't make to much difference his exposure compared to recent years.
It's just nice to see him leave officially on his own terms rather than being fired for the 10th time or whatever it is.
his analogy is all kinds of wrong cause the part an actor gets isnt recognition of what he brings to the table. it *is* what he brings to the table. the recognition comes in the form of an academy award
which is why ddp's long standing comparison of winning a title to winning an academy award is perfect cause in both cases your talent is being spotlighted and recognized, only difference being that the recognition of having won a title is an ever present thing; academy awards might be tied with acts but not in the day to day sense of a wrestling title
so if peeps think its silly not for wrestlers (actors) to be recognized for their work via being given a title (winning an academy award) but actually to take pride in it, then fuck 'em
Has anyone ever had JR's bbq sauce? I am assuming it is overly sweet and tomato-y like most marketed bbq sauces, but would be pleasantly surprised if it was actually something worth checking out.
That's about what I figured. Perfectly fine, but nothing worth ordering when it's easy enough to whip up something at the house that I'm sure is at least as good as his stuff. Thanks.
So is "slobberknocker" something that JR has always used, even back in the Mid-South days, or is it an invention of the "good ol' JR from Oklahoma" in his WWE days? Anyone? Anyone? Bueller?
That sounds tinfoil hat worthy. They're a company perfectly willing to make public scapegoats of people, if they were that pissed off, they'd publicly fire him. If they were stupid enough to fire him over it, what would stop him from bitching about it?
I've honestly been asking this same question for a while. I don't get it. He has his own little universe of how he believes things are supposed to work, which doesn't really mesh with reality.
Getting trapped in the Meltzer-verse may be hazardous to your health.
I'm curious to see if he goes that way, and if he does then if it's just pablum or not. JR has likely seen a lot, and if I'm Vince I'm paying him to keep at least some of it under his hat. But yeah, a JR book could be incredible.
In 1997, at the height of the USA vs. Canada angle, Bret Hart campaigned for the WWF Championship, and then got it at Summerslam 97. Shawn Michaels, on live TV no less, congratulated Bret, stating that "you got your piece of tin." I also remember someone (Michaels, also?) saying that Bret was a mark for himself. It had me believing that Bret was a guy who thought having a title meant something, and Michaels was a guy who believed doing business meant something. In my opinion, and this is in agreement with what Scott has said many time, the titles are props and have lost all meaning. Getting a tattoo is fine. Getting a tattoo to commemorate winning a prop? Hell...I've heard of people getting tattoos commemorating the death of Superman. It's dorky. It's whatever your personality is. AJ is a dork, so let it be.
Honestly, I could give a shit about AJ one way or the other, but Meltzer's reasoning for bashing AJ was ridiculous, and it matches a lot of other stupid shit I've read about him. Of course, the only thing I really know about Meltzer is the stuff I read here, I don't seek him out, so I may be getting a skewed opinion.
Do you say this before or after reading the comments below stating several valid reasons to go against Meltzer's criticisms? Because if you want to know "how," then go on and read those comments.
I think that it's sort of a dumb thing to do. Dreaming of a achieving a fake accomplishment is kind of dumb, and I'm a kid that dreamt of exactly that. There is a difference in the main title, because that's a sign that you are successful as a draw, in an industry. You are money. That's my opinion. My opinion is also, who the fuck cares? AJ is awesome, and if she wants to get that tattoo then good for her. Like 97% of all tattoos are retarded.
If the title was "a piece of tin" then Michaels should of had no problem laying down for Bret over it all the times he was asked. So Shawn won't lose cause it's meaningless, but Bret wins a "meaingless piece of tin?"
I think the Oscar is an excellent example. If someone wins an Oscar, what does it mean? A group of anonymous movie people picked you for some reason and said you were the best. Were you? Maybe. Definitely not always. Yet those in the movie business are allowed to treat Oscars like they're meaningful. They're just playing make-believe too.
1. The Divas title is as high an accomplishment as you can get if you are a female wrestler.
2. Getting a belt is somewhat like getting an academy award. You didn't win it in athletic competition, but your superiors deemed you worthy to have it.
3. A lot of guys are pissed because this girl is showing more passion for the job than 90% of the douches coming out of their development.
Scott Hall told a story about Bret Hart having the wrestlers over to his house when they toured Calgary. Hall claims Bret had a gigantic framed picture of himself in full ring gear and the pink Sgt.Pepper jacket hanging above his bed.
I'm the same. He reports conjecture like it's gospel sung to him from Vince's own mouth, when the reality is WWE is so insular I doubt anyone outside of Mcmahon's office know what's going on.
Bret's a huge mark, and that could very well be true, but I wouldn't take Scott Hall's word on it. It's not like he's going to tell flattering stories about Bret.
#3 to a T. If she were man with this kind of passion or development she'd be with CM Punk or Daniel Bryan redefining the business. Even as it is she's been fantastic in everything that she's done since last year's WrestleMania.
JR was the voice of most of the moments that defined our fandom. There's nothing they could have _EVER_ done to him to change my opinion of him, personally.
"-Got publicly demoted in 2008 during the Draft episode (although JR spoke to my brother about it at the time and they were trying to get Smackdown on another station and thought he had better name value at the announcer's table)"
I actually think there is something to this. JR calling matches IS wrestling and the Raw rating wasn't going to go down because of an announcer change. But people might stop when they're channel-surfing and here good ol JR calling matches. And this was also around the time HHH was anchoring Smackdown.
I side with AJ on this. It just seems like more of Dave Meltzer coming off as an MMA elitist who looks down on pro wrestling because the outcomes are scripted. Fuck him.
I stopped watching for a good few months when Ross was first pulled from RAW, not out of any protest, but because I realized how much of my enjoyment of the show was due to his work.
There was a proper way to do this, and this wasn't it.
I have heard too many shoots where the guys say "Never let the promoters know how much you care about belts, because then they have you."
Scott Hall said it best in his RF shoot a couple of times over.
His stint in AWA "I dont need your belt Verne. I can sell suntan lotion on Cocoa Beach and make 100K a year.... My bills come every month on time."
His WWF stint "You can leave me laying every night. I wanna get paid. I knew it was fake from day one. I'd rather have a million a year to job, than have 400K and get the belt every year."
But there was video proof she was a mark before she even join the promotion. THat youtube clip with Lita where she is going apeshit.
Jim Ross was never gonna be in the inner circle, but he was too valuable to be left twisting in the wind, because of the connects he had in the business.
If anything else. He greatest ability was to find talent.
He didn't know how to cultivate it, but he knew how to acquire it.
Better than JJ, better than Ace... Ross knew talent.
Titles as "pieces of tin": Personally, it's a fair part of why I dislike present-day wrestling.
So what if it's not a "real" championship? Should I go to any actor and tell them "That Oscar/Academy Award/Emmy is a fake title"? Should I go to a Nobel Prize* winner and accuse him of winning something that "isn't real"? Because those are won mostly the same way that a professional wrestling title is won: While it may be portrayed as hard work and sacrifice, it's really just politicking and sucking (up to) the right people.
If someone IN THE BUSINESS wants to say, in private, "This belt means jack and shit", that's his right. But saying it in any form that can get out in public is dumb. If the belts mean nothing, why the fuck should anyone bother watching your show? If the belts mean nothing, I'm watching a piss-poor soap opera that I can find better "versions" of on many channels.
Sure, anyone with more than a passing knowledge of the business knows what being a "three-time world champ" is really worth... BUT DON'T RUB IT IN OUR FACES!
Void if the winner spent any time in jail or being tortured/persecuted. But come on, those awards are about as politicized as anything these days.
Montreal was a big deal because Bret didn't want to walk out of Canada a loser, and Vince was paranoid that Bret was going to walk into WCW with a piece of WWF "symbolism" and trash it. It wasn't about a "championship" per se, it was more about what Bret thought was good for himself, and what Vince thought would look bad for his company.
Alot of wrestler are marks, otherwise they wouldn't go through what they need to at entry-level to do this.
Yeah, there's the old-school football player type who just transitioned as a way to make money and the modern guys/gals who are picked because they're models or have a "look", but for the rest of them? They have to like it to do it.
If *she* doesn't care about being a mark, why do you (and Meltzer/others) care?
So she has genuine pride in her accomplishment, and that attitude might mean she makes $1M from Vince instead of $1.2M. If she's okay with that then who gives a shit?
And like others have said, his analogy is fucking stupid. The belt is more like an Oscar than a fictional character's award.
TPrincess please update your headline, it couldn't be farther from the truth. The WWE story is simple propaganda. More accurate headline would be "JR buried in the desert."
Orton's a mark too. Why would he give two shits about someone botching if it's fake and he's collecting a paycheck. Especially when it has nothing to do with him? You can spin this on almost anyone.
C'mon now, Bret throwing the title in the garbage or even showing up on WCW with the belt would have wrecked Vince. Remember how WCW sued when Flair showed up with the big gold belt?
I dont begrudge her for being a public mark. I feel sorry for her.
Because once her value/stock drops (and it will because she is a woman in wrestling) until she smartens up, all they have to do is dangle the belt in her face and promise a long title run and then she will give in to anything they ask her to do because she has said belt.
It's a sign she's the most important woman in the WWE. Just because you don't value it doesn't mean no one does. I think NASCAR is retarded and I think that whatever Skoal Cup they give the winner is less prestigious than the TNA title.
If she didn't do what they said they'd just fire her. We're talking about a "Diva" here, they've booked the girls down into the gutter where they're all pretty much expendable. To the point where if one actually gets over, we sit here in stunned amazement,
It's a bad example. Dave is thinking way too oldschool and Scott Hall is a gigantic exception to the rule, where he actually practiced what he preached.
Woman in wrestling barely have leverage whatsoever. When AJ's value drops she's probably getting released, especially since they don't have other vehicles like Playboy for the girls anymore. And when she does, the fact that she's a (probably by then) multiple time womens champ will result in her making more money wherever she works next.
This argument isn't the same for men and women. The Divas title is THE title for the girls (Meltzer said the main title is "different"). If you're the champ you're getting booked on more shows/ppvs, therefore you're getting bigger paydays than the other girls (who can go months without getting a ppv match). If AJ the "Belt Mark" is given the title all year to keep her happy I guarantee she's making a shitload more money than any other girl on the roster.
Keep in mind this is the guy who said that the recent B+ comments from Steph/Orton/etc was a reference to something HE wrote years ago. And he's calling someone else a "mark"...
Wendi RIchter. FIRED because she asked for more money. Sable: FIRED because she asked for more money Chyna: FIRED because Steph was fucking her man
All these ladies were at the height of their career. AJ is nowhere close to these ladies and the money they have made. She is not getting paid. Maybe if she has merch, but Im sure she isn't getting Rey/Cena cuts of that money.
Meltzer's response makes him seem like a real douche. Somebody like Chris Jericho -- who accomplished more than most people ever will within the industry -- has said on a number of occasions that his initial dream was to win the Intercontinental Championship. But he's a "belt mark" because he's excited about a midcard title?
I'm completely on AJ's side. This girl had a dream and she accomplished it. Good for her for being proud.
I tend to agree with Meltzer on this. I'm also not into tattoo culture so maybe I'm missing something. I read numerous Tommy Morriso articles this past week and one mentioned that he had the date he beat Foreman tattooed on his arm. Morrison actually beat George Foreman though so I guess that's the difference. There are way too many marks in the business, these guys (and gals) need to get savvy and take back the business.
But you don't think AJ makes more money than Alicia Fox, Natalya, Naomi, etc? Basically all the girls except maybe the Bellas since they do so much promo stuff for the company?
My understanding is if you work the ppv you get a cut. In AJ's case I'm sure it's small, but it's more than what 90% of the girls get cause they're not booked and they get nothing. If you're always the champ and always getting booked then you're making more money than those other girls. That's the point I'm making.
That doesn't make sense. Why are the two things mutually exclusive? Can't the girl -- gasp -- be excited about a career accomplishment AND be savvy when it comes to contract negotiations?
Medusa was promised a revitalized Womens division and being the centerpiece.
She was promised japanese wrestlers to work with. They brought in Rhonda Singh and changed her to Bertha Faye and Bull Nakano....
Then they dropped the division altogether. Hence, she wasn't getting paid at all cuz Vince was doing guarantees yet.
Bischoff gets in her ear, offers her a guarantee and a revitalized womans divison in WCW, with a little extra to bring the belt and trash it. She jumps because she was fucked by Vince. Does the belt trash. Bisch uses her for like 2 PPVs and then drops the division. But at least she is getting guaranteed money.
Now she smartened up to go for the money, but she still was woo'ed by the thought of being the centerpiece of a womens division.
For every great call he made, there's still "Booger Red" - the dumbest nickname you could possibly give The Undertaker. He tried his damndest to get over a nickname that nobody cared about.
Which was worse to be: a scalded dog or a government mule?
How fast is "quicker than a hiccup" when wrestling "catch-as-catch-can" style?
This'll be rather blunt in tone, but it's the only way to say it:
"Take back the business..." Take it back from whom?
Vince? "YOU'RE FUCKING FIRED!" Steph? "FUCK OFF!" Writers? "Vince? Steph? We have a problem..."
Honestly, I'd say WWE would have very little issue firing 75%+ of its roster, and just bringing up fresh meat as replacements. And where will the fired talent go? (I'll leave the jokes to others)
CM Punk certainly found a way to his thing without getting fired. There is a certain amount of political posturing required in wrestling and the latest generation hasn't listened to the previous generation. Hence why someone like CM Punk comes off as so revolutionary and ground breaking.
You answered it already. Money and Eric Bischoff was a terrific troll. It probably helped that they did business before, but if it was anyone else on top they get the same offer.
The Divas division typically features 2 women at once- the champ and the challenger of the month(s). If you're always the champ you're being featured on tv way more often.
Do you think if AJ and Alicia Fox both got fired today that they'd command the same amount of $ at conventions/shows/etc? I say AJ makes more, cause she's been on tv more often, therefore she has more exposure and more fans, and that's a result of being Divas champ.
MITB 11' was big news within the industry but I don't recall seeing it on Sportscenter or hearing people in the halls at work chattering about it. It was huge within the wrestling bubble. Yes he sticks around, he knows how to play the game.
I don't think anyone is arguing that she isn't a "belt mark". I think they're saying that's not a terrible thing in modern day WWE, that's it's different for men and women, and that Dave Meltzer is shitty at analogies.
Getting lowballed either way. You're going along with this pretense that they see any value in the "Divas". She'd have to do what the heatless Bellas did, and screw someone high up on the roster so they can get their jobs back eventually.
You know the Women's Division is complete shit when people believe that AJ is a star. She is the best that she has but not a huge star and never will be. She was shoehorned in a popular angle last year, they made her GM, realized no one really cared about her at all, just the guys in the feud, and now she is the champ while the main focus is on the "Total Diva's" girls. AJ is not a star
You can be "yes" (the tattoo is hilarious) and still not side with Meltzer. Because the concept is ridiculous, they're all marks, the list of guys who weren't can probably be counted on a couple of hands. Shit, one of the biggest non belt marks in the history of the business got stabbed to death because of office politics.
I don't disagree with your general opinion of her, but I will take exception on the never will be part. No one knows this kind of stuff with any degree of certainty. Did you think Trish would be the biggest woman's star of all time? I can guarantee you some time around her barking on all fours, that not one person thought she'd turn into what she did. You can also find a bunch of examples on the male side. Wrestling is unpredictible and hard to pinpoint what the fans will latch onto.
No one would remember a week later. He made it memorable. But even the concept of "image" is being a mark. Funny enough, the one instance I can think of Hall being a mark was Goldust... even if he was on his way out.
She "could" be a star I guess but I cannot imagine a scenario where she becomes Trish or Lita. Plus, she is just not as unique or marketable as those two
AJ was all over television following her character shift to crazy chick. She won the Divas title almost a year later. She'd be on TV more than any other Diva regardless of whether or not she had the title.
Yes, even though JR works for a part of the company that HHH has no control over, and HHH went out of his way to praise Ross back when Ross was put on Smackdown.
So let's ignore the fact that Vince had gone out of his way to humiliate JR several times back before HHH had any sort of 'corporate' position, and Vince first fired JR back in 1994 while HHH was still working for WCW.
And let's ignore the real crazy possibility that a guy who is over 60 years old and has had a steadily diminishing role in a company could decide on his own to move on.
Are we going to be blaming chemical weapons in Syria on HHH next?
I honestly don't think it's that far-fetched that Steph's comment was a response to something Meltzer said. Lots of wrestlers (not just HHH) have been known to get pissy about what Meltzer has said about them, and HHH strikes me as the type of guy who would remember a criticism for a long time.
What makes less marketable than Trish? She doesn't have giant silicone bags? She's probably better on the mic, charisma is about equal, in ring workrate is slighly below right now. Remember how bad Trish was though? Also, the wrestling audience is smaller today than it was when Trish was around so that hurts her, but put AJ around that time and I think she'd be fine.
She wouldn't have anywhere else go to regardless of the tattoo. Obviously the higher ups see SOMETHING in her, especially when you consider that she has shared, on more than one occasion, segments with Vince and Stephanie McMahon.
CM Punk gets a tattoo of his preferred cola and nobody has an issue with it. AJ gets a tattoo of a major personal accomplishment and people are criticizing her for being proud.
Hogan's a tough one. Too much politics to not be a mark. And Starrcade against Sting was pretty marky. Nash, no.
Brody is good, Heenan, Lesnar (although the Vikings thing was pretty marky in a non-wrestling way) Andre? (when he was sober?). Duggan, Jake Roberts never really won anything. Hall obviously.
I disagree about AJ having equal charisma to Trish. Plus, Trish was gorgeous and improved by leaps and bounds and had good feuds. AJ's most memorable feud was with Kaitlyn
That's true, but in most cases that's not how it works with the Divas. My point is that Meltzer is wrong to apply the standards of male wrestlers to the women. Few women in modern WWE get tv time/exposure if they're not in the title picture.
A better example would be Beth Phoenix versus Alicia Fox.
Punk also has a tattoo of his favorite terrorist organization bent on world domination.
Punk actually has long term value in wrestling. He had to bitch and whine about it to make them see it, but he has it.
AJ is flavor of the month and im not criticizing her getting a tattoo. Im criticizing her for publicly announcing that "Yes, this belt means so much that I want it inked into my flesh for all times"
She basically just gave herself a scarlet letter. Wrestling is hugely based on perception. and Meltzer is right, she could have privately been happy to herself and no-sold it to her peers. But with that tattoo, she stated, I would do this for free.
this whole "outright disdain and contempt for fans" is such an outdated carnie attitude. people get to live their lives on their terms. if she's happy she won the title, what exactly does it hurt? Kayfabe's over, the whole idea of a mark is outdated.
I'm pretty sure I said I agreed with your opinion of her, right now, and that I only disagreed with your assertion that "she never will be" a star. You don't have to like her, but I don't think you have a crystal ball. If you do, please give me the power ball numbers for tomorrow, i want to retire. ;-)
They are getting over with the company. That is who they want to push. AJ, the champ, takes a backseat to the cast of a reality show. She is not a star. If she was, they would promote her as one.
She got over because she was with Punk and Bryan. Once they left, she became GM, the crowd reactions diminished, and they made her an ordinary wrestler. She was a supporting player in a major feud. She is the Cuba Goosing Jr. of the Women's Division
it was best for business
ReplyDeleteI hope he still pops by to do a LOW round table.
ReplyDeleteHe may be riding off into the sunset on his schedule, but he was put out to pasture far earlier than he should have been.
ReplyDeleteThey'll bring him back when they need someone to beat up in Oklahoma.
ReplyDeleteWorld's longest threadjack coming your way:
ReplyDeleteSo apparently, people online got up in arms when Dave Meltzer stopped just short of calling AJ a mark for getting the date of her Divas title win tattooed on her neck, since she was getting hyped up about winning the same title that "Debra McMichael and Sable won".
After people came to AJ's defense on the WO/F4W message boards about seeing nothing wrong with a woman wanting to mark the date of a dream she had since childhood, Meltzer responded:
"On the A.J. thing, this is going to break some hearts, but people who run wrestling companies laugh at wrestlers who are "belt marks" for undercard belts, especially when it comes to a pass-around belt vs. a main event belt that is given with the idea the person with it is anchoring business.
Promoters throughout time feel that there are the guys who want to be paid and the guys who want a belt and they can pay whatever they want to them as long as they give them a make-believe pass-around belt.
In both TNA and WWE there is that designation, given a few times a year from both sides in conversations that reference, which goes back longer than I've been following wrestling, has been around. One group is considered pros and the other group is considered fans who are on the roster and the belief is you can treat them very differently. There is an old saying about the latter group that you throw them a fish and watch them jump.
For ones own career, even if they consider it an accomplishment, if you want respect, you don't sell it publicly behind the scenes, only in fake media interviews and on TV.
Again, the world title (or the main event belt in any territory) is viewed entirely differently (although people who don't like Bret Hart would knock him over the same subject, but those people probably were going to find something to do that about either way, given I never heard anyone except Bockwinkel in fun, knock Harley Race over the same thing). I know of stories where someone in the industry will bring up to Lawler about all the belts he's won over his career and he immediately gives then a glare like they have no understanding of the business."
But the drama continued later, with Meltzer further clarifying his position after people wondered why it's such a bad thing to show passion about achieving milestones in your chosen profession.
"I know this is all silly and stuff, but when people bring up guys who win the Olympics or "If Ronda Rousey did it" winning the UFC title like it's the same thing is just weird.
When Brock Lesnar was asked, what was the biggest thing to him, winning the NCAA title, the WWE title or the UFC title, his response was, "One of those wasn't real."
If a child who wanted to be a doctor growing up ending up getting a minor part in a movie, when he had previously had bigger parts, where he played a doctor who won a fictitious scripted Nobel Prize for Medicine, and then announced he was getting a tattoo to commemorate his getting a Nobel Prize, the highest honor possible and greatest accomplishment in his life, what do you think the real world would think?
Why they'd say, of course that's great, because there was nothing higher he could do in his career then win a Nobel Prize in a small movie role that somebody scripted for him.
And the people who bring up he's had bigger parts and that it was scripted would be decried because they are the ones out of touch with the real world."
So what do you think? Are you Team Meltzer or Team AJ?
Im starting to hate how Meltzer sets the tone for wrestling. Nobody would have given a fuck about AJs tat, now the "smart" fans narrative is gonna be this.
ReplyDeleteLike seriously who gives a fuck behind the meaning of AJs tattoo. Yea its a fake sport but its still an accomplishment within the profession to win a title. Were people criticizing HBK after WM 12? What about Austin in Philly? They still put tons of work and dedication into their craft and should be proud of being given the title.
ReplyDeleteWhile there may be an element of truth to it, sometimes people just overreact to things. This should be held as a prime example of that.
ReplyDelete(Not really) serious question: Were the Women's and Diva's titles merged?... I'm drawing a blank.
AJ, what exactly bigger belt does he expect her to win? Grow a Chyna between her legs and go after Orton? For a kid that grew up rough and wanted to be in this business, she's at the top of the part of the business she can be in. Not her fault she's a cute pixie.
ReplyDeleteI don't get the backlash on people that actually enjoy what they do. These examples aren't the greatest, because they don't back it up in the ring or character development wise, but Ryder and Miz both enjoyed the hell out of their pushes, both were major fans of the sport...both shit on....Yeah, they have deficits, but there's been plenty of comments related how they're marks for themselves.
It's just fucking weird, if somebody wins the Superbowl, you expect them to say they're going to Disney.
Yet, if somebody does well in wrestling, people want them to sulk and wish they were in UFC or boxing or some other "legit" endeavor? Frigging weird.
I'll never not be on Team AJ. Let's just put it this way--AJ is the most successful Diva since Trish or possibly Sable. She has risen up in the view of staff, been in prominent roles throughout the last 18 months, has put on the best Divas matches during that time frame, has her own merchandise which appears to be a hot seller, is capable of cutting a pipebombshell promo, and has the most "followers" on Twitter of any WWE female. She's a smart woman with a good feel for the business.
ReplyDeleteWith that being said, I really don't get the doctor analogy. AJ never wanted to be an amateur champion over wwe champ (real doctor over fake doctor in the analogy). She wanted to be WWE's champion. That was her dream. She accomplished her dream. And her title is like her Oscar win. I just hope--for her sake--there are many more titles to come or a long-ish title reign for this one to make that tat mean something more.
With that being said, fans of the wrestling do get treated differently than the politicians of wrestling.
I have no idea. Dave and Bryan's memories are so frequently and hilariously wrong that it wouldn't surprise me for them to just assume it had been and equate the two.
ReplyDeleteBut I do believe they were.
I don't get the doctor analogy because Dave hates copyediting.
ReplyDeleteIt's a double-edged sword. Don't care you win the belt? "You're not respecting THIS BUSINESS!" Care too much? "lol, ur a belt mark."
ReplyDeleteExactly, honestly it's why wrestling can never truly break into the main stream and stay there. It's not fringe, but there's a lot of self hate involved with the fans, wrestlers, and even Vince with all his side projects to be a "legitimate promoter".
ReplyDeleteOkay, question of the day:
ReplyDeleteWas JR made of teflon?
-Toga party, 1993
-Fired after a bout with Bell's Palsy
-Had a horrible angle bringing back Diesel and Ramon (but JR made the most of it, I thought)
-Had the uncomfortable angle with Cole and Dr. Death in 1999
-Had WCW's Oklahoma provide potshots
-Member of Vince's Kiss My Ass club (I think)
-Fired in 2005 and had the stupid rectal surgery skit performed by one Vincent K.
-Got publicly demoted in 2008 during the Draft episode (although JR spoke to my brother about it at the time and they were trying to get Smackdown on another station and thought he had better name value at the announcer's table)
-The entire year of Heel Cole bashing JR
-The annual or bi-annual Oklahoma beatings by anyone from Jack Swagger to Steve Austin.
We still love him, goddammit.
It's also part of what made the Attitude Era so much fun.
ReplyDeleteEven Vince wasn't getting sidetracked much, and almost EVERYONE in wrestling wasn't taking shit from "outsiders".
Now from each other... well, "People disagree on topic. Story at 11."
yeah, it's all just the leftover carnie bullshit.
ReplyDeleteYep. You hear all the time that the Clique rode together because they loved the business so much and couldn't stop talking about how to make things better and THAT'S why they made it to the top in this business.
ReplyDeleteYet, guys more looked at as fans--say, Edge and Chris Jericho--maxed out every bit of potential they could despite always losing every big main event they were in. To this day, it's hard to say they were ever really recognized as much as they should have been.
And can we get a list of JR quotes going here...?
ReplyDeleteI have no horse in the race but Meltzer comes off as a major toolbag with this, in my opinion. The woman is a bonafide wrestling geek who is essentially at the top of the mountain that she's allowed to be on: she's champion, she's had high-profile storylines involving main-eventers, and she's one of the most featured players in terms of advertising and marketing.
ReplyDeleteIt personally comes across to me as a bit silly to get a tattoo about it, especially on your neck, but I can certainly see the justification about it. Yeah, titles are props and the reason Jerry Lawler rolls his eyes about his endless titles is because he booked himself to win them in a mostly small-time promotion and never did anything, wrestling-wise, worth a damn in the big time.
1: Not his fault by any means.
ReplyDelete2: Vince is an ass.
3: Vince is a bigger ass.
4: Vince is an even bigger ass.
5: Vince Russo and Ed Ferrara should be enemaed with hydrochloric acid. Not just for that, but it's part of the indictment.
6: Vince is still an ass.
7: Vince is still a bigger ass.
8: Vince BLAH BLAH ass.
9: Do I really need to spell it out?
10: Sigh. Fine, Kevin Dunn is a piece of shit. Not literally, although a literal piece of shit still is less worthless than him. (Vince is an ass is played out by now.)
Enough of us here consider that A: What JR did for three companies (Mid-South, NWA/WCW, and WWF) at the desk was usually outstanding, and sometimes iconic; and B: JR is a pretty damn cool guy just following orders. Or being teased "behind his back".
is it on the back of her neck? because then it's basically never visible if she doesn't want it to be.
ReplyDeleteYup, in a program between Mickie James, Women's champ at the time, & Michelle McCool. McCool and the butterfly belt went over.
ReplyDeleteWhy do people give a fuck about this douche?
ReplyDeleteI agree. It's just something else when you had to look at what he had to endure and/or overcome over the years. A remarkably strong-willed and strong-minded man.
ReplyDeleteI was just about to ask the same thing. Tats on the back of neck usually look nice (on women, anyway), tats on the throat make you look like you just got out of prison.
ReplyDeleteI'm not sure I'd call this "riding off into the sunset." Why retire now? You'd think if it was up to him, he'd be some part of Wrestlemania 30 in some capacity. Even if he only called one match like the Undertaker match or something. Strange...
ReplyDeleteIs Brock a good source for pride in a pro wrestler's craft?
ReplyDeleteFunny how Lawler supposedly doesn't care about belts when he and Jerry Jarrett tried to get him the NWA belt for years.
AJ should be proud.. She's as high as she can go, which still pays just fine. Meltzer can calm the hell down.
The same day that my mid-south Blu-ray arrives? That's just mean.
ReplyDeleteI gotta imagine that RF Video and Kayfabe Commentaries are sending out feelers to JR about a shoot video.
ReplyDeleteGood for him! Though it isn't like it will make any difference to the common fan, he'll stick to the company line on his blog I'm sure, he'll make rare appearances here and there... shouldn't make to much difference his exposure compared to recent years.
ReplyDeleteIt's just nice to see him leave officially on his own terms rather than being fired for the 10th time or whatever it is.
fuck meltzer
ReplyDeletehis analogy is all kinds of wrong cause the part an actor gets isnt recognition of what he brings to the table. it *is* what he brings to the table. the recognition comes in the form of an academy award
which is why ddp's long standing comparison of winning a title to winning an academy award is perfect cause in both cases your talent is being spotlighted and recognized, only difference being that the recognition of having won a title is an ever present thing; academy awards might be tied with acts but not in the day to day sense of a wrestling title
so if peeps think its silly not for wrestlers (actors) to be recognized for their work via being given a title (winning an academy award) but actually to take pride in it, then fuck 'em
/thread
he was fired
ReplyDeleteHe's been gone for how long now? Not exactly shocking...
ReplyDeleteCome on Dixie! Pay the man!
I'm sorry, did I miss something here?
ReplyDeleteHas anyone ever had JR's bbq sauce? I am assuming it is overly sweet and tomato-y like most marketed bbq sauces, but would be pleasantly surprised if it was actually something worth checking out.
ReplyDeleteive had a number of his sauces and ketchups cause a friend of mine orders them.
ReplyDeletenot bad, but i wouldnt go out of my way for them
That's about what I figured. Perfectly fine, but nothing worth ordering when it's easy enough to whip up something at the house that I'm sure is at least as good as his stuff. Thanks.
ReplyDeletejust my own opinion, others' mmv
ReplyDeleteI understand. Never trust a stranger's opinions on food or movies. But I would have been shocked to hear that his stuff was just crazy, amazing good.
ReplyDeleteSo is "slobberknocker" something that JR has always used, even back in the Mid-South days, or is it an invention of the "good ol' JR from Oklahoma" in his WWE days? Anyone? Anyone? Bueller?
ReplyDeleteThat sounds tinfoil hat worthy. They're a company perfectly willing to make public scapegoats of people, if they were that pissed off, they'd publicly fire him. If they were stupid enough to fire him over it, what would stop him from bitching about it?
ReplyDeleteA decent severence deal, and a promise to treat his departure respectfully, if I had to guess.
ReplyDeleteSeriously? Fuck Meltzer. A lifelong fan of WWE makes it to WWE and then wins the title, and she gets shit for being excited about this?
ReplyDeleteIf he hasn't already, Meltzer has officially jumped the shark.
I definitely remember hearing him using it when he was in WCW.
ReplyDelete"AUSTIN! AUSTIN! AUSTIN!"
ReplyDeleteI've honestly been asking this same question for a while. I don't get it. He has his own little universe of how he believes things are supposed to work, which doesn't really mesh with reality.
ReplyDeleteGetting trapped in the Meltzer-verse may be hazardous to your health.
Yeah, I'm not exactly sure why this is "news" either.
ReplyDeleteThe real downer here is that everyone that has ever retired from the wrestling industry has stayed 100% gone forever. :-(
ReplyDelete"As god as my witness, he's broken in half!"
ReplyDeleteIsn't getting fired because Ric Flair is drunk like getting fired because Kanye West brags or Jim Harbough whines?
ReplyDeleteParticularly during any Steiners match.
ReplyDeleteThe sarcasm is strong in this one.
ReplyDeleteIt sounds more like he was fired.
ReplyDeleteBut still, that's not always a permanent thing. People get fired, and then return. Including JR. Several times.
But they have TAZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ!
ReplyDeleteA Jim Ross book is one of the few reads left I'd really pay money for.
ReplyDeleteHow can anyone be criticizing Dave over this? He's 100% right and hes just relaying what the wrestlers think.
ReplyDeleteI've found parking spots more prestigious than that title.
ReplyDeleteI'm curious to see if he goes that way, and if he does then if it's just pablum or not.
ReplyDeleteJR has likely seen a lot, and if I'm Vince I'm paying him to keep at least some of it under his hat.
But yeah, a JR book could be incredible.
LOL.
ReplyDeleteLegit.
In 1997, at the height of the USA vs. Canada angle, Bret Hart campaigned for the WWF Championship, and then got it at Summerslam 97. Shawn Michaels, on live TV no less, congratulated Bret, stating that "you got your piece of tin." I also remember someone (Michaels, also?) saying that Bret was a mark for himself. It had me believing that Bret was a guy who thought having a title meant something, and Michaels was a guy who believed doing business meant something. In my opinion, and this is in agreement with what Scott has said many time, the titles are props and have lost all meaning. Getting a tattoo is fine. Getting a tattoo to commemorate winning a prop? Hell...I've heard of people getting tattoos commemorating the death of Superman. It's dorky. It's whatever your personality is. AJ is a dork, so let it be.
ReplyDeleteGood point, the Divas belt is the same belt Sable and Debra McMichael won.
ReplyDeleteWhy because he criticized a wwe diva you like, and then gave the reasons why?
ReplyDeleteHe gave stupid reasons.
ReplyDeleteMeltzer's totally wrong here. I'm not even sure what he's going for. But I'm starting to feel like Meltzer hates wrestling.
ReplyDeleteDave said the main event belts were different and ddp was talking about the wcw title.
ReplyDeleteThis ^^
ReplyDeleteHonestly, I could give a shit about AJ one way or the other, but Meltzer's reasoning for bashing AJ was ridiculous, and it matches a lot of other stupid shit I've read about him. Of course, the only thing I really know about Meltzer is the stuff I read here, I don't seek him out, so I may be getting a skewed opinion.
But again, she's a chick, for better or worse, that is her main event belt, just a weird bitch fest from Meltzer.
ReplyDeleteDo you say this before or after reading the comments below stating several valid reasons to go against Meltzer's criticisms? Because if you want to know "how," then go on and read those comments.
ReplyDeleteI think that it's sort of a dumb thing to do. Dreaming of a achieving a fake accomplishment is kind of dumb, and I'm a kid that dreamt of exactly that.
ReplyDeleteThere is a difference in the main title, because that's a sign that you are successful as a draw, in an industry. You are money.
That's my opinion. My opinion is also, who the fuck cares? AJ is awesome, and if she wants to get that tattoo then good for her. Like 97% of all tattoos are retarded.
If the title was "a piece of tin" then Michaels should of had no problem laying down for Bret over it all the times he was asked. So Shawn won't lose cause it's meaningless, but Bret wins a "meaingless piece of tin?"
ReplyDeleteShawn doing that would have been bad for business.
ReplyDeleteI think the Oscar is an excellent example. If someone wins an Oscar, what does it mean? A group of anonymous movie people picked you for some reason and said you were the best. Were you? Maybe. Definitely not always. Yet those in the movie business are allowed to treat Oscars like they're meaningful. They're just playing make-believe too.
ReplyDelete1. The Divas title is as high an accomplishment as you can get if you are a female wrestler.
ReplyDelete2. Getting a belt is somewhat like getting an academy award. You didn't win it in athletic competition, but your superiors deemed you worthy to have it.
3. A lot of guys are pissed because this girl is showing more passion for the job than 90% of the douches coming out of their development.
Or the alternative "STONE COLD! STONE COLD! STONE COLD!"
ReplyDeleteTo be fair, Michaels was on a massive amount of drugs at the time. lol.
ReplyDeleteWith the caveat it has no affiliation with WWE. I wanna read his unslanted opinions on everything.
ReplyDeleteAt this point, doesn't he already?
ReplyDeleteYeah, that's exactly what I mean.
ReplyDeleteYeah, if it was such a worthless piece of tin, why was Montreal such a big deal?
ReplyDeleteYes to Montreal, but what about all the other times he refused to job?
ReplyDeleteScott Hall told a story about Bret Hart having the wrestlers over to his house when they toured Calgary. Hall claims Bret had a gigantic framed picture of himself in full ring gear and the pink Sgt.Pepper jacket hanging above his bed.
ReplyDeleteI'm the same. He reports conjecture like it's gospel sung to him from Vince's own mouth, when the reality is WWE is so insular I doubt anyone outside of Mcmahon's office know what's going on.
ReplyDeleteBret's a huge mark, and that could very well be true, but I wouldn't take Scott Hall's word on it. It's not like he's going to tell flattering stories about Bret.
ReplyDelete#3 to a T. If she were man with this kind of passion or development she'd be with CM Punk or Daniel Bryan redefining the business. Even as it is she's been fantastic in everything that she's done since last year's WrestleMania.
ReplyDeleteI think I heard it first during a Cactus Jack match, if I had to pinpoint it.
ReplyDeleteJR and Taz the time at happened at the Royal Rumble was not terrible.
ReplyDeleteThis gets a like cause Jim Harbaugh is a big ole whiner.
ReplyDeleteJR was the voice of most of the moments that defined our fandom. There's nothing they could have _EVER_ done to him to change my opinion of him, personally.
ReplyDelete"-Got publicly demoted in 2008 during the Draft episode (although JR spoke to my brother about it at the time and they were trying to get Smackdown on another station and thought he had better name value at the announcer's table)"
ReplyDeleteI actually think there is something to this. JR calling matches IS wrestling and the Raw rating wasn't going to go down because of an announcer change. But people might stop when they're channel-surfing and here good ol JR calling matches. And this was also around the time HHH was anchoring Smackdown.
I side with AJ on this. It just seems like more of Dave Meltzer coming off as an MMA elitist who looks down on pro wrestling because the outcomes are scripted. Fuck him.
ReplyDelete"SOMEBODY STOP THE DAMN MATCH!"
ReplyDeleteI stopped watching for a good few months when Ross was first pulled from RAW, not out of any protest, but because I realized how much of my enjoyment of the show was due to his work.
There was a proper way to do this, and this wasn't it.
I treat all pop culture awards shows like that. Blow the right people, get a trophy.
ReplyDeleteGood for him. I did like him on the WWE Panels they'd do during ppv's though.
ReplyDeleteIm sure they'll do something like a final send off during the ppv or Raw
He would be great for a Timeline.
ReplyDeleteOh for sure. A guy who was management, relatively sober, and with no agenda. That would be awesome.
ReplyDeleteNo question about it, I'm with Meltzer.
ReplyDeleteI have heard too many shoots where the guys say "Never let the promoters know how much you care about belts, because then they have you."
Scott Hall said it best in his RF shoot a couple of times over.
His stint in AWA "I dont need your belt Verne. I can sell suntan lotion on Cocoa Beach and make 100K a year.... My bills come every month on time."
His WWF stint "You can leave me laying every night. I wanna get paid. I knew it was fake from day one. I'd rather have a million a year to job, than have 400K and get the belt every year."
But there was video proof she was a mark before she even join the promotion. THat youtube clip with Lita where she is going apeshit.
They knew she was a mark from day one.
The tattoo just solidifies it.
Jim Ross was never gonna be in the inner circle, but he was too valuable to be left twisting in the wind, because of the connects he had in the business.
ReplyDeleteIf anything else. He greatest ability was to find talent.
He didn't know how to cultivate it, but he knew how to acquire it.
Better than JJ, better than Ace... Ross knew talent.
Aint enough money in the world.
ReplyDeleteIm sure Ross is still getting money off the books from Vince.
Continuing a topic below:
ReplyDeleteTitles as "pieces of tin": Personally, it's a fair part of why I dislike present-day wrestling.
So what if it's not a "real" championship? Should I go to any actor and tell them "That Oscar/Academy Award/Emmy is a fake title"? Should I go to a Nobel Prize* winner and accuse him of winning something that "isn't real"? Because those are won mostly the same way that a professional wrestling title is won: While it may be portrayed as hard work and sacrifice, it's really just politicking and sucking (up to) the right people.
If someone IN THE BUSINESS wants to say, in private, "This belt means jack and shit", that's his right. But saying it in any form that can get out in public is dumb. If the belts mean nothing, why the fuck should anyone bother watching your show? If the belts mean nothing, I'm watching a piss-poor soap opera that I can find better "versions" of on many channels.
Sure, anyone with more than a passing knowledge of the business knows what being a "three-time world champ" is really worth... BUT DON'T RUB IT IN OUR FACES!
Void if the winner spent any time in jail or being tortured/persecuted. But come on, those awards are about as politicized as anything these days.
Montreal was a big deal because Bret didn't want to walk out of Canada a loser, and Vince was paranoid that Bret was going to walk into WCW with a piece of WWF "symbolism" and trash it. It wasn't about a "championship" per se, it was more about what Bret thought was good for himself, and what Vince thought would look bad for his company.
ReplyDeleteFuck Meltzer. The more apropos metaphor would be an actress getting the date she won the best actress oscar.
ReplyDeleteI think it's cool she's that passionate about it. Meltzer just seems like a joyless prick.
ReplyDeleteWatching JR on the WWE2K14 panel...drunk as hell and zero fucks given
ReplyDeleteBut think if Meltzer won some sort of award, ever.
ReplyDeleteSounds like my office after lunch.
ReplyDeleteAlot of wrestler are marks, otherwise they wouldn't go through what they need to at entry-level to do this.
ReplyDeleteYeah, there's the old-school football player type who just transitioned as a way to make money and the modern guys/gals who are picked because they're models or have a "look", but for the rest of them? They have to like it to do it.
If *she* doesn't care about being a mark, why do you (and Meltzer/others) care?
ReplyDeleteSo she has genuine pride in her accomplishment, and that attitude might mean she makes $1M from Vince instead of $1.2M. If she's okay with that then who gives a shit?
And like others have said, his analogy is fucking stupid. The belt is more like an Oscar than a fictional character's award.
If the choice is she's a mark or some entitled schmuck like Orton, I'd rather her be a mark.
ReplyDeleteYeah, I don't get the the doctor analogy but I don't think Dave understands emotion or feelings. I've long wondered if he was on the spectrum.
ReplyDeleteIf you have a throat or neck tattoo (and it's not like AJ's on the back of your neck and covered by hair) you've probably done some time or some meth.
ReplyDeleteTPrincess please update your headline, it couldn't be farther from the truth. The WWE story is simple propaganda. More accurate headline would be "JR buried in the desert."
ReplyDeleteOh MAN did you see Meltzer's petulant response to HHH's grantland interview where he talked about dirt sheets? Highest of high comedy.
ReplyDeleteHe is too class act. He wouldn't do a book on the dirt.
ReplyDeleteOrton's a mark too. Why would he give two shits about someone botching if it's fake and he's collecting a paycheck. Especially when it has nothing to do with him? You can spin this on almost anyone.
ReplyDeleteC'mon now, Bret throwing the title in the garbage or even showing up on WCW with the belt would have wrecked Vince. Remember how WCW sued when Flair showed up with the big gold belt?
ReplyDeleteThe question wasn't if we cared or not.
ReplyDeleteThe question was who do you side with.
I dont begrudge her for being a public mark. I feel sorry for her.
Because once her value/stock drops (and it will because she is a woman in wrestling) until she smartens up, all they have to do is dangle the belt in her face and promise a long title run and then she will give in to anything they ask her to do because she has said belt.
Eh, I think they would consider Punk in the same boat. Kid who watched wrestling decides to become a wrestler as career choice #1.
ReplyDeleteIt's a sign she's the most important woman in the WWE. Just because you don't value it doesn't mean no one does. I think NASCAR is retarded and I think that whatever Skoal Cup they give the winner is less prestigious than the TNA title.
ReplyDeleteThey'll have Triple H call him out during Raw and officially fire him on tv.
ReplyDeleteYour new TNA World Champion?
ReplyDeleteWell he has been commentating on a match or two every NXT taping.
ReplyDeleteSays Meltzer.
ReplyDeletehttp://i33.tinypic.com/1tpwy8.jpg
ReplyDeleteIf she didn't do what they said they'd just fire her. We're talking about a "Diva" here, they've booked the girls down into the gutter where they're all pretty much expendable. To the point where if one actually gets over, we sit here in stunned amazement,
ReplyDeleteIt's a bad example. Dave is thinking way too oldschool and Scott Hall is a gigantic exception to the rule, where he actually practiced what he preached.
Woman in wrestling barely have leverage whatsoever. When AJ's value drops she's probably getting released, especially since they don't have other vehicles like Playboy for the girls anymore. And when she does, the fact that she's a (probably by then) multiple time womens champ will result in her making more money wherever she works next.
ReplyDeleteThis argument isn't the same for men and women. The Divas title is THE title for the girls (Meltzer said the main title is "different"). If you're the champ you're getting booked on more shows/ppvs, therefore you're getting bigger paydays than the other girls (who can go months without getting a ppv match). If AJ the "Belt Mark" is given the title all year to keep her happy I guarantee she's making a shitload more money than any other girl on the roster.
Brock was a good source because Meltzer jerks off to UFC fights wearing affliction shirts.
ReplyDeleteRe: Meltzer's comments
ReplyDeleteKeep in mind this is the guy who said that the recent B+ comments from Steph/Orton/etc was a reference to something HE wrote years ago. And he's calling someone else a "mark"...
And have given up hope of ever getting a real job. That or they just don't care.
ReplyDeleteBad example you say?
ReplyDeleteQuestion for you.
Why did Medusa trash the womens belt on Nitro?
Give me your take on the situation.
Do you really think that having WWE Diva's champ on your resume carries any more weight than just "WWE Diva"?
ReplyDeleteWhere, and to whom?
This guy gets it.
ReplyDelete3+ parts Eric wanting to stick it to Vince, 1 part Madusa wanting to stick it to Vince.
ReplyDeleteSometimes an order is easy to give out and follow.
(I'm pretty sure she never said anything about regretting or being sorry for it... feel free to correct.)
LOL... No she isn't.
ReplyDeleteLets cite some specific examples.
Wendi RIchter. FIRED because she asked for more money.
Sable: FIRED because she asked for more money
Chyna: FIRED because Steph was fucking her man
All these ladies were at the height of their career. AJ is nowhere close to these ladies and the money they have made. She is not getting paid. Maybe if she has merch, but Im sure she isn't getting Rey/Cena cuts of that money.
Yeah, I'm wondering if this is HHH doing some housecleaning as he slowly takes more control.
ReplyDeleteMeltzer's response makes him seem like a real douche. Somebody like Chris Jericho -- who accomplished more than most people ever will within the industry -- has said on a number of occasions that his initial dream was to win the Intercontinental Championship. But he's a "belt mark" because he's excited about a midcard title?
ReplyDeleteI'm completely on AJ's side. This girl had a dream and she accomplished it. Good for her for being proud.
I tend to agree with Meltzer on this. I'm also not into tattoo culture so maybe I'm missing something. I read numerous Tommy Morriso articles this past week and one mentioned that he had the date he beat Foreman tattooed on his arm. Morrison actually beat George Foreman though so I guess that's the difference. There are way too many marks in the business, these guys (and gals) need to get savvy and take back the business.
ReplyDeleteOkay, maybe not a *shitload*...
ReplyDeleteBut you don't think AJ makes more money than Alicia Fox, Natalya, Naomi, etc? Basically all the girls except maybe the Bellas since they do so much promo stuff for the company?
My understanding is if you work the ppv you get a cut. In AJ's case I'm sure it's small, but it's more than what 90% of the girls get cause they're not booked and they get nothing. If you're always the champ and always getting booked then you're making more money than those other girls. That's the point I'm making.
That doesn't make sense. Why are the two things mutually exclusive? Can't the girl -- gasp -- be excited about a career accomplishment AND be savvy when it comes to contract negotiations?
ReplyDeleteI'll give you my take.
ReplyDeleteMedusa was promised a revitalized Womens division and being the centerpiece.
She was promised japanese wrestlers to work with. They brought in Rhonda Singh and changed her to Bertha Faye and Bull Nakano....
Then they dropped the division altogether. Hence, she wasn't getting paid at all cuz Vince was doing guarantees yet.
Bischoff gets in her ear, offers her a guarantee and a revitalized womans divison in WCW, with a little extra to bring the belt and trash it. She jumps because she was fucked by Vince. Does the belt trash. Bisch uses her for like 2 PPVs and then drops the division. But at least she is getting guaranteed money.
Now she smartened up to go for the money, but she still was woo'ed by the thought of being the centerpiece of a womens division.
For every great call he made, there's still "Booger Red" - the dumbest nickname you could possibly give The Undertaker. He tried his damndest to get over a nickname that nobody cared about.
ReplyDeleteWhich was worse to be: a scalded dog or a government mule?
How fast is "quicker than a hiccup" when wrestling "catch-as-catch-can" style?
It made him look bad. Image is everything.
ReplyDeleteThis'll be rather blunt in tone, but it's the only way to say it:
ReplyDelete"Take back the business..." Take it back from whom?
Vince? "YOU'RE FUCKING FIRED!"
Steph? "FUCK OFF!"
Writers? "Vince? Steph? We have a problem..."
Honestly, I'd say WWE would have very little issue firing 75%+ of its roster, and just bringing up fresh meat as replacements. And where will the fired talent go? (I'll leave the jokes to others)
That remains to be seen, but judging from the youtube clip as a kid and the neck tattoo...
ReplyDeleteIf I was a promoter, I'd lowball the shit out of her.
Where she gonna go?
If she does, it aint by much.
ReplyDeleteI say 75-100K tops, which aint shit. and Im being generous.
Austin's podcast?
ReplyDeleteCM Punk certainly found a way to his thing without getting fired. There is a certain amount of political posturing required in wrestling and the latest generation hasn't listened to the previous generation. Hence why someone like CM Punk comes off as so revolutionary and ground breaking.
ReplyDeleteI'm guessing he signed NDA out the wazoo given his general "company man" stance.
ReplyDeleteYou answered it already. Money and Eric Bischoff was a terrific troll. It probably helped that they did business before, but if it was anyone else on top they get the same offer.
ReplyDeleteIn reality Ross should have been booking WWE.
ReplyDeleteI'm guessing HHH is cleaning house of the "old guard" as he gets more power. Others are guessing it's a result of the video game thing.
ReplyDeleteThe Divas division typically features 2 women at once- the champ and the challenger of the month(s). If you're always the champ you're being featured on tv way more often.
ReplyDeleteDo you think if AJ and Alicia Fox both got fired today that they'd command the same amount of $ at conventions/shows/etc? I say AJ makes more, cause she's been on tv more often, therefore she has more exposure and more fans, and that's a result of being Divas champ.
That's why the number is 75%, and not 90%.
ReplyDeleteIf MITB 11 doesn't get the mainstream reaction it did, do you think Vince would've kept Punk around this long?
MITB 11' was big news within the industry but I don't recall seeing it on Sportscenter or hearing people in the halls at work chattering about it. It was huge within the wrestling bubble. Yes he sticks around, he knows how to play the game.
ReplyDeleteBut now you are outside the bubble.
ReplyDeleteThat's a variable that means nothing, because there is no belt in the equation.
Again, the original question was is AJ a belt mark and do you side with AJ or Meltzer?
Meanwhile, Orton is paid and you are getting little to money for being a mark.
ReplyDeleteYou sound like a hipster.
"If you are in this business for anything other than money, you're a mark" Bobby Heenan
They threw me out on MY ASS, BOOM BOOM.
ReplyDeleteIt got Vince more "mainstream" attention than anyone outside Cena at the time, IIRC.
ReplyDeleteThis is a dick measuring contest
ReplyDeleteI don't think anyone is arguing that she isn't a "belt mark". I think they're saying that's not a terrible thing in modern day WWE, that's it's different for men and women, and that Dave Meltzer is shitty at analogies.
ReplyDeleteGetting lowballed either way. You're going along with this pretense that they see any value in the "Divas". She'd have to do what the heatless Bellas did, and screw someone high up on the roster so they can get their jobs back eventually.
ReplyDeleteMoney was a factor, but it was brought upon by Vince using the belt as a bail and then reneging on his deal.
ReplyDeleteSo she smartened up and took the money.
8>>>>>>>>>>>>D
ReplyDeleteYou know the Women's Division is complete shit when people believe that AJ is a star. She is the best that she has but not a huge star and never will be. She was shoehorned in a popular angle last year, they made her GM, realized no one really cared about her at all, just the guys in the feud, and now she is the champ while the main focus is on the "Total Diva's" girls. AJ is not a star
ReplyDeleteYou can be "yes" (the tattoo is hilarious) and still not side with Meltzer. Because the concept is ridiculous, they're all marks, the list of guys who weren't can probably be counted on a couple of hands. Shit, one of the biggest non belt marks in the history of the business got stabbed to death because of office politics.
ReplyDelete"not a huge star and never will be"
ReplyDeleteI don't disagree with your general opinion of her, but I will take exception on the never will be part. No one knows this kind of stuff with any degree of certainty. Did you think Trish would be the biggest woman's star of all time? I can guarantee you some time around her barking on all fours, that not one person thought she'd turn into what she did. You can also find a bunch of examples on the male side. Wrestling is unpredictible and hard to pinpoint what the fans will latch onto.
I wont go that far.
ReplyDeleteAJ is a star in the same vein that AJ Styles is a star. He is the brightest one that they have.
But at the end of the day, she is a fan and while she is gonna "get it" and be the people's choice, she is still a fan and not "get it"
If you can understand the difference between the two
No one would remember a week later. He made it memorable. But even the concept of "image" is being a mark. Funny enough, the one instance I can think of Hall being a mark was Goldust... even if he was on his way out.
ReplyDeleteShe "could" be a star I guess but I cannot imagine a scenario where she becomes Trish or Lita. Plus, she is just not as unique or marketable as those two
ReplyDeleteAJ was all over television following her character shift to crazy chick. She won the Divas title almost a year later. She'd be on TV more than any other Diva regardless of whether or not she had the title.
ReplyDeleteOr you ride a fixie and work at a coffeeshop. No seriously, I live in Philly. They're fucking everywhere.
ReplyDeleteYes, even though JR works for a part of the company that HHH has no control over, and HHH went out of his way to praise Ross back when Ross was put on Smackdown.
ReplyDeleteSo let's ignore the fact that Vince had gone out of his way to humiliate JR several times back before HHH had any sort of 'corporate' position, and Vince first fired JR back in 1994 while HHH was still working for WCW.
And let's ignore the real crazy possibility that a guy who is over 60 years old and has had a steadily diminishing role in a company could decide on his own to move on.
Are we going to be blaming chemical weapons in Syria on HHH next?
Heenan's another one, he showed ass his entire career for money. We're up to like maybe 4 or 5 people ever.
ReplyDeleteI honestly don't think it's that far-fetched that Steph's comment was a response to something Meltzer said. Lots of wrestlers (not just HHH) have been known to get pissy about what Meltzer has said about them, and HHH strikes me as the type of guy who would remember a criticism for a long time.
ReplyDeleteDo you honestly think Trish and Lita become as big if WWE is PG during their entire run?
ReplyDeleteBeing PG handicaps these girls from getting as over as the old ones.
What makes less marketable than Trish? She doesn't have giant silicone bags? She's probably better on the mic, charisma is about equal, in ring workrate is slighly below right now. Remember how bad Trish was though? Also, the wrestling audience is smaller today than it was when Trish was around so that hurts her, but put AJ around that time and I think she'd be fine.
ReplyDeleteVince McMahon, revealing himself to be the Higher Power: "It was me, Austin! It was me all along!"
ReplyDeleteJR: "Aw, sonovabitch!:
Another excellent point.
ReplyDeleteTrish was in a lesbian stalker angle, good luck doing that today.
I haven't kept count.
ReplyDeleteNash
Hall
Brody
Heenan
Hogan
Brock
Monsoon
She wouldn't have anywhere else go to regardless of the tattoo. Obviously the higher ups see SOMETHING in her, especially when you consider that she has shared, on more than one occasion, segments with Vince and Stephanie McMahon.
ReplyDeleteCM Punk gets a tattoo of his preferred cola and nobody has an issue with it. AJ gets a tattoo of a major personal accomplishment and people are criticizing her for being proud.
Tell that to the Bella's and the rest of the Total Diva's cast
ReplyDeleteHogan's a tough one. Too much politics to not be a mark. And Starrcade against Sting was pretty marky. Nash, no.
ReplyDeleteBrody is good, Heenan, Lesnar (although the Vikings thing was pretty marky in a non-wrestling way) Andre? (when he was sober?). Duggan, Jake Roberts never really won anything. Hall obviously.
I disagree about AJ having equal charisma to Trish. Plus, Trish was gorgeous and improved by leaps and bounds and had good feuds. AJ's most memorable feud was with Kaitlyn
ReplyDeleteBeauty is an opinion. I find Trish attractive, but not gorgeous.
ReplyDeleteFeuds? That's not really AJ's fault. Last I checked, the divas don't get to choose their own storylines.
How could I forget Haku/Meng. LOL. He could kill half the people he wrestled if it was real and spent alot of time on his back.
ReplyDeleteThat's true, but in most cases that's not how it works with the Divas. My point is that Meltzer is wrong to apply the standards of male wrestlers to the women. Few women in modern WWE get tv time/exposure if they're not in the title picture.
ReplyDeleteA better example would be Beth Phoenix versus Alicia Fox.
If AJ was so great like most people here seem to think she is, she could carry these feuds and make them special.
ReplyDeletePunk also has a tattoo of his favorite terrorist organization bent on world domination.
ReplyDeletePunk actually has long term value in wrestling. He had to bitch and whine about it to make them see it, but he has it.
AJ is flavor of the month and im not criticizing her getting a tattoo. Im criticizing her for publicly announcing that "Yes, this belt means so much that I want it inked into my flesh for all times"
She basically just gave herself a scarlet letter. Wrestling is hugely based on perception. and Meltzer is right, she could have privately been happy to herself and no-sold it to her peers. But with that tattoo, she stated, I would do this for free.
I don't understand...
ReplyDelete:Pouring out some BBQ sauce for our fallen comrade:
ReplyDeletethis whole "outright disdain and contempt for fans" is such an outdated carnie attitude.
ReplyDeletepeople get to live their lives on their terms. if she's happy she won the title, what exactly does it hurt?
Kayfabe's over, the whole idea of a mark is outdated.
I'm pretty sure I said I agreed with your opinion of her, right now, and that I only disagreed with your assertion that "she never will be" a star. You don't have to like her, but I don't think you have a crystal ball. If you do, please give me the power ball numbers for tomorrow, i want to retire. ;-)
ReplyDeleteThey are getting over with the company. That is who they want to push. AJ, the champ, takes a backseat to the cast of a reality show. She is not a star. If she was, they would promote her as one.
ReplyDeleteI'd say AJ's most memorable storyline was her arc with Daniel Bryan, from the initial flirting to the wedding breakup. That was a pretty big deal.
ReplyDelete4 11 22 25 31 35
ReplyDeleteWo-hoo!! I'll send you a $1million.
ReplyDeleteOh nooooo...
ReplyDeleteHogan is looking out for his best interests, himself.
Everything he did was a calculated move to keep him in the spotlight and keep getting more money.
There is no mark in him whatsoever.
Brock aint a mark either. He is gettin millions for Undertaker amount of dates. Come on.
Ill give you Andre, Duggan and Snake.
Maybe she should start dating the company's top star.
ReplyDeleteShe got over because she was with Punk and Bryan. Once they left, she became GM, the crowd reactions diminished, and they made her an ordinary wrestler. She was a supporting player in a major feud. She is the Cuba Goosing Jr. of the Women's Division
ReplyDeleteI meant getting over with the *fans*.
ReplyDelete