WWE was nice enough to post this in full to YouTube, so I felt it deemed sharing again. Should have started a whole new era and caught the business on fire all by itself, but it just didn't. Still one of my favorite matches of all-time, though.
WWE was nice enough to post this in full to YouTube, so I felt it deemed sharing again. Should have started a whole new era and caught the business on fire all by itself, but it just didn't. Still one of my favorite matches of all-time, though.
I remember a forum I posted on at the time thought this would result in Punk making a world tour with the belt, defending it in dream matches in NJPW and ROH, then fancam videos would air on Raw of Cena chasing after Punk immediately after the conclusion of the match and result in a true viral feud with a renewed sense of cooperation and goodwill between every major fed in the world, complete with dream crossover PPVs. We actually got a tiny taste of this when that video of Punk crashing the WWE panel at Comicon surfaced. And I totally believed them. I completely bought into the "things will never be the same again" mentality. Sadly, things rarely go the way you hope.
ReplyDeleteThe problem is that they only kept him off TV for a week, then he was back. They should have dragged it out like 1996 Sting in WCW. Maybe not as long, but they rushed him back and it just made it feel like just another angle.
ReplyDeleteThis whole "CM Punk should have stayed off WWE TV when totally healthy and riding the highest wave of his career" thing has always been so bizarre to me.
ReplyDeleteI agree. The different and real nature of the nwo was because it wasnt Vince manipulating it. Even the Austin era felt different because it was Russo booking. NOTHING will ever feel or look different ever again. We lost that with the monopoly. It's really sad actually.
ReplyDeleteWith as great as they payed that one off, I can't imagine why they didn't ape it!
ReplyDeleteI think a lot of people have a hard time reconciling "things that sound neat" with "actually makes any practical sense."
The "Punk leaving with the WWE title" story was a product of uncertainty if he'd really stay or go. When he re-signed, it made no sense to keep their hottest commodity off TV.
Me too; I had no problem with him coming back (with that kind of momentum Punk was on, I'm not taking him off TV for four weeks either) and I even liked the dual champion angle going into SummerSlam; it was the bizarre crowbar-ing of HHH and Nash into the feud that killed it.
ReplyDeleteHe didn't need to stay off TV...I think people wanted something different to happen and they thought wwe was gonna go that direction finally. But they didn't. Same old angle that never got as far as it could have.
ReplyDeleteOne of the greatest perfect storms in wrestling history: Punk's promo, his contract status, hometown crowd, two great performers, outcome in the air...just amazing all the way around.
ReplyDeleteThe argument is, it combined the best elements of both the Austin story (the anti-corporate stance) and the Sting '97 story (where you didn't know how he'd pop up next). In taking him TV for a month:
ReplyDelete* You elevate the tournament for the "interim title," and stoke the flame by having Vince and Cena refuse to call it by that name.
* You have a Cena/Rey main in L.A., where that would draw -- and the opportunity to give that a decent story (as opposed to Vince shooing Rey out of the damn ring like he were a young boy).
In taking him off TV for, say, 2-3 months:
* You allow for the creation of "shoot vids" to come in. Maybe not go to NJPW like somebody mentioned earlier, but show up at an indie or two or a convention, maybe even give "unauthorized" interviews billing himself as the WWE champ.
Meanwhile, you can experiment with new challengers for Cena or more screentime for other guys to fill that void, without really damaging Punk's heat (or giving any to Nash). In short, that moment when Punk came back, which looked great in August, had the chance to look even better in November.
The reason it didn't start a whole new era and set the business on fire is because the story that followed was straight ass. They kept Punk off TV for little more than two weeks, while resetting to the status quo in the interim by having Cena regain the title...not from winning a tournament, but from wrestling the guy who did win it on the very night he won it. I have no idea how having a fresh Cena wrestle a weakened Mysterio was supposed to get anyone behind Cena, especially after Rey gave that emotional interview where he told his daughter he was bringing the title home.
ReplyDeleteBut really, the Mysterio thing was far from the problem. And I suppose they did it because they realized they needed the title back on Cena that week since they were running out of time to start the Summerslam build. Stupid reasoning, but I get it. No, the storyline went wrong when it became less about Punk rebelling against the system and more about HHH rebelling against a whiny Punk, with Kevin Nash in the middle as a source of alleged intrigue. By the time October rolled around, Punk's heat was a fraction of what it was, as the storyline segued into being about the roster walking out on HHH on the whole Vote of No Confidence thing. I didn't need a political Vote of No Confidence in Star Wars, and damned if I want it in wrestling. Especially when HHH wasn't where the money was.
I like HHH. Hell, I love the guy as a performer. But HHH wasn't the money. Not unless he was going to put Punk over. And that never really happened, on the mic or in the ring. The business didn't catch fire like it could have because, at an arbitrary point, it stopped being about the guy around whom all the buzz had formed.
This.
ReplyDeleteI liken it to the Star Wars prequels in some ways, in the sense that nearly every single fan theory/suggestion ended up being better than what they actually did.
ugh, I hate those movies more and more every time I watch those plinkett reviews.
ReplyDeleteUltimately I think it did lead to an era, the Reality Era that Shoemaker references. This Bryan/HHH is doing what the Punk stroryline did -- playing off the fact fans are now plugged in to everything online and playing off those perceptions and stories people take as fact.
ReplyDeleteIt was bumpy on the way and wasn't a clear lineage, but I think you see the fingerprints of that Summer of Punk storyline all over Bryan/Orton/HHH.
I feel as though they rushed the interim title.
ReplyDeleteThey could have had a title tourney culminate at Summerslam between Cena and Mysterio for the interim title.
Still wuld have done a huge buyrate, then bring Punk back at the end of the show or Raw the next night. Then build towards Cena/Punk II at Survivor Series to prop that PPV up. They never had to run the Rock stuff until the Rumble
If there was ever time that turning Cena could've turned into big $$, this was it. That ship has sailed.
ReplyDeleteI've been meaning to ask you since you're a big sabermetrics guy (and excuse those for the sligh threadjack), NL Rookie of the Year: Puig or Fernandez?
ReplyDeleteThanks!
They've aped off of Punk twice now. Once with Cena stepping into Punk's role vs. Big Jonny and now with the Bryan storyline. Someone hire Punk to be in charge of creative, pronto!
ReplyDeleteAnother thing I always thought screwd up this angle were the promos by Triple H. He made Punk seem like a whiner, plus he actually out talked Punk which made him appear not on the same level.
ReplyDeleteGreat match though.
They're kind of stealing from SES for the Wyatt Family.
ReplyDeleteWas he responsible for the Shield and AJ too? Cause if so, he's got all the good parts of Raw as his creations.
I thought they inadvertently shot themselves in the foot by announcing Rock v. Cena the night after Wrestlemania. You're telling me that waiting until around Survivor Series to start a Rock/Cena program has ANY effect on Wrestlemania?
ReplyDeleteThe biggest thing that pissed me off was after Punk and HHH had their match, on the next night on RAW, CM Punk completely admitted that HHH was right all along.
ReplyDeleteIt made him look like such a bitch. Luckily, he's talented enough to recover from it but, man, that certainly had to have brought ratings down. Punk totally put him over and sooner than later was wearing his shitty blue blazer.
Cena turns heel at MITB, screws Punk. Punk returns during the buildup to WM to fuck with Cena during his feud with Rock, and eventually costs him the match at Mania.
ReplyDeleteShould have been the first in a trilogy with the next two happening at WM 28 and 29. But you know, Rock had to come back and be all mediocre and shit.
ReplyDeleteI feel the trilogy definitely, but those are way too spaced out
ReplyDeleteNot really. If Rock doesn't come back and everything else happens the same, Punk/Cena is the only other choice for a main event.
ReplyDeleteThen you still have Brock there.
ReplyDeleteAnd not to mention running Cena/Undertaker early.
Im not disagreeing with you btw, Im just saying that Cena/Punk trilogy that far out would be too spaced out and while it could hold interest, it would diminish in subsequent WMs
ReplyDeleteThere was a quadrilogy if you don't count the shitty MITB cashin match from Raw 1000. MITB 11, Summerslam 11, NOC 12, a Raw show in March 13. Yeah, I think they botched the placement on that last one.
ReplyDeleteLet's be honest... if they executed it to perfection, had Punk win SS clean, and then refeuded them after Punk's turn (like they did), to blow it off at WM29 with the Raw match they did, it still wouldn't have rocketed the business. WWE is in their audience comfort zone and has been there for years, it would take something totally dreadful to knock them down a peg and something unbelieveable to knock them up a peg.
ReplyDeletePunk's character was also something that wasn't going to get over universally. It was just too freaking smarky and smarmy. *THAT* is what was hurting his heat just as much as the botchy booking. Once they turned him into Cena with Tattoos, his heat shot right back up. Now, DB is in a position right now where he is over 1,000% with everyone.
I liked it, especially since they booked the whole thing out of nowhere, but in retrospect it had zero chance of creating a boom. What it DID do was elevate Punk into a ME face, from the manager of jobbers that he was before they went with this angle. Which was a pretty strong feat because original face Punk was so meh. I'm just surprised it took so long to do it, you'd think it would be the logical thing to do after the color commentator stint where he proved he could play the smart-ass face character.
Wish the clip had the "do I have your attention now?" recap video before the match, since that was one of the very best recaps WWE has ever done (and there have been some great ones).
ReplyDeleteBooking that match the night after WM was probably Vince's version of a pressure time-share sale on the Rock. Make him do it while he's there so he looks awful if he doesn't come through.
ReplyDeleteTriple H wasn't shoehorned into the feud, though, he was buried in the promo. As was Johnny Ace. Then Ace ended up on TV and you got COO Trips. You can't have an asshole anti-authority character without authority. The problem was what started approximately 30 seconds or so after the match ended.
ReplyDeleteAgain, even then it wouldn't have made a difference. It's a great fantasy booker topic but there's nothing they were going to do with it that would create a huge casual audience boom.
"Should have started a whole new era and caught the business on fire all by itself, but it just didn't."
ReplyDeleteShitty Booking will do that
[p]Something about Curtis Axel reminds me of Taco from "The League."[/p]
ReplyDelete[p]Nice to see Del Rio squash somebody, but I still think Ricardo got too much offense for a non-wrestler going against the World Heavyweight Champion. It seems most logical (WWE logic) for Ricardo to turn on RVD and help Del Rio win on Sunday, but I think they need to strike while RVD is hot and put the title on him now. Then he and Ricardo can quietly drift apart, and Ricardo can become the mouthpiece for Los Matadores.[/p]
I know a lot of people will complain about the dance-off taking up so much TV time, but those 10 minutes allowed some lesser-used characters to get some screen time, and allowed the heavily-used characters to get some rest going into the PPV. Fans want to see Bryan and Punk and their other favorites wrestle 20 minutes on every show, but that's hard on the body.
And would it really kill WWE to make Sandow look at least somewhat credible as a title threat? I'm not he needs to go over Big Show and Bryan clean every week, but jobbing to Santino in two minutes? They couldn't have had Slater or Swagger or Fandango do that one? I feel like I've seen Sandow win 2 matches in the last 6 months: Rolling up Miz on a fluke last week, and Money in the Bank. They can't have him get some wins against credible guys like Ziggler or Kofi once in a while?
First time watching SD in months and I actually enjoyed it.
ReplyDeleteSomeone needs to explain to me how Big Show is still physically going though. Logically he should be fucked by now.
This is the first ppv I had bought in like 4 years and it was fucking awesome. People talk about this match, and rightfully show, but the undercard was great.
ReplyDeleteIt WAS kind of convoluted, involving Punk being suspended and losing his title shot, then getting it back, then getting the stip that Cena would be fired if he lost, then the finish involving the previously unseen John Laurinitis....
ReplyDeleteYea, I hated the introduction of the Cena firing portion. It was just dumb.
ReplyDeleteTo be more concise, the feud was so great because while the build did involve the Punk unknown and Vince, its focus was always on the wwe title and the differences between Cena and Punk.
Totally agree. People were into the tournament, they were even into MIZ making a run, and they rushed it. Rey vs Cena wouldve been a fine SS main. In the interim, Punk shows up at indy shows, youtube, even random house shows like Sting.
ReplyDeleteOh, you mean like, "let's be honest, in the end, you're just a guy who held out for some perks."
ReplyDeleteWay to put that talent over, HHH
That statement covers some serious ground. And is also 100% correct.
ReplyDeleteWhen you watched that live for the first time, you're already riled up when it ends and then the crowd just echoing "CM PUNK"
ReplyDeleteTruthfully, Punk isn't on the same level as HHH.
ReplyDeleteYeah, it was too soon, but Punk's return to Raw with the debut of "Cult of Personality" gave me goosebumps.
ReplyDeleteohh that will get you shot here on the blog
ReplyDeletebut, but, Punk got out of a few Pedigree's during the match!! - said people defending HHH at the time.
ReplyDeleteSo annoying that HHH should ZERO ass during that feud and now he's super-heel douchebag from his 00-01 run.
They should have done vignettes like, "the following announcement, has paid for by the real WWE Champion, CM Punk:" and just have him go on about whatever for a couple of minutes. Good way to keep him off the show but still on TV.
ReplyDeleteYou're right - he's on a higher level.
ReplyDeletePunk's a better promo.
Punk makes his opponents look better, so both guys leave the match stronger than when they entered it (a skill HHH was the MASTER of before his first quad injury, and which disappeared COMPLETELY upon his comeback. It sounds overly simplistic, but it's true.)
Punk has a greater variety of ways to have a great match - he can be dominating, going 50/50, or playing plucky underdog. HHH's matches are booked as if he's Brock in a shoot.
HHH is a no question legend. His credentials rival anyone's. But Punk is the better performer.
You're right, he's not married to the owner's daughter.
ReplyDeleteDon't underestimate how hot Punk was at that time. The business likely wouldn't hit attitude era heights for a ton of different reasons, but it certainly could have picked up a bunch of new fans.
ReplyDeleteOr, if you're not locked in to Rock (pure fantasy at this point), have a real slow burn and Punk shows up at Survivor Series after Cena has defeated all challengers. Punk was already doing guerrilla marketing at the time so there's no reason he couldn't have kept it up through the Fall. Maybe plant some rumors that he's really not coming back. And then he shows up at MSG during Cena's match against HHH or Miz or whoever and we get one of the craziest pops ever. Build to WM main event of Punk/Cena with levels of anticipation that haven't been seen since Hogan/Sting.
ReplyDeleteOff TV but not out of the spotlight, as Eric suggests. No reason guerrilla marketing couldn't work and Punk would be just the guy to do it. The way WWE did it, we got a typical WWE feud, and Punk reverted from a cross-over pop culture sensation to just another top of the card WWE star. Holding him off WWE TV certainly wouldn't have been any worse, and it might have resulted in one of the best PPV builds in recent memory when he does show back up.
ReplyDeleteI said it in another thread and I'll say it again: HHH is arguably not a top 10 WWE champion of all time. His "legacy" hangs on two things: 1. The year leading up to the quad injury when he really was awesome 2. Longevity in the main event due to banging the boss' daughter and sucking up heat from others. Anytime you start using "longevity" to justify someone as an all time, top 5, one of the best ever, you run in to trouble. See also: Malone, Karl.
ReplyDeleteAlternative: Punk stays off TV, does more viral marketing with the belt. Meanwhile, Cena continues to dominate all comers, starting by squashing Rey at SummerSlam. But his attitude slowly changes and starts becoming a real ass about it. Asking for real challengers, talking about how overcoming the odds would be beating him. HHH steps in to fix the growing "Cena problem" and challenges him to a match at Survivor Series. At Survivor Series, Cena cements his heel turn by eventually pinning HHH following a sledgehammer shot. He grabs the mic and declares that he is the TRUE BEST CHAMPION OF ALL TIME. Punk's music hits, MSG goes apeshit, he grabs a mic and says "How can you be the best of all time when you're not even holding the REAL WWE champoinship?" Fade to black. Begin build to epic Royal Rumble match.
ReplyDeleteThis match made me a true mark again for a month. Didn't think that was possible after so many years in smark territory.
ReplyDeleteI love Cult of Personality, but I REALLY miss Punk's old theme song. That opening hook was always mark out city for me.
ReplyDeleteI think that Punk is a more captivating talker and better actor than Trips, but Trips is certainly better at twisting statements to win an argument. Trips comes across as smarter.
ReplyDeletePersonally, I actually really LOVED the promos the two had together, because they felt so real. When Punk is claiming to be anti-authority and hating corporations, and Trips counters by saying that it was the authority/corporation that paid the fees for "Cult of Personality", I absolutely loved it. Sure, I can see the argument that it makes Punk seem like a hypocrite, but it also felt like a real argument between two guys that were hardly paragons of virtue. Their characters were both known to be liars and manipulators, they both had skeletons in their closets that they didn't want exposed, and they were trying to best each other in an effort to gain the support of the fans. Remember, Punk was still basically a 'tweener at that point; just a few weeks earlier, he was bad-mouthing the very fans that supported him, the very fans that "chanted his [my] name, but still bought the John Cena cups and programs", and only started pandering to them once it became apparent that having fan-support would result in getting everything he wanted (main-events, title matches, use of Vince's plane, etc.).
Granted, the Punk/Trips promos may have failed at being "wrestling promos", where both guys strive to build each other up, but I think it added an incredible realism, a feeling of legitimate anger and hatred, to the feud. And I, for one, greatly appreciated and enjoyed that.
I like the idea in theory, but no way would a story-line like that stay hot for six months. Plus, you can't really keep the hottest new act they've had in years off of TV for that long.
ReplyDeleteIdeally, Punk wins at "MITB", you do a tournament ending with Cena/Rey at "Summerslam", Cena wins that match, and "Summerslam" ends with Punk returning and getting in Cena's face as the show goes off the air. Boom, there's "Night of Champions", no Nash/Trips/ADR involved, and you don't hot-potato the title during the fall.
People forget just how short of a time Punk was actually off of TV - it wasn't even "little more than two weeks", it was only eight days. How can we miss him, and how can we take his claims of "leaving forever" seriously, if he literally only missed one show?
ReplyDeleteI know that a lot of people assume that Punk couldn't have become a huge star, citing such things as the booking (true) and his overall look (disagree), but I think it's ridiculous that so many feel like just because he didn't catch fire at the time is proof that he never would have. The guy was basically playing this new character for, what, a month before it became just another wrestling angle? What the hell catches on in a month? Not Hogan, not Austin, not the "nWo", not Daniel Bryan.
ReplyDeleteI'm not saying he necessarily WOULD have become an Austin-level star (probably not, as I don't think he's as good as Austin, and the booking certainly wasn't doing him any favors), but I don't think anyone can really say that not turning the business around in a mere few weeks is indicative of his drawing ability. Wrestling hadn't been a big part of pop-culture for roughly ten years by that point, whatever may have created another boom period would certainly have taken more than a month to catch on. Even the most lauded TV shows generally do better in their later seasons, years after they've debuted. Add in the usual negative stigma that wrestling has, and it takes a LOT of time and patience to find the next big thing.
Yea. They def fucked some stuff up but the biggest complaint is they rushed Punk back. It woulda been cool to see him in a ROH audience or to build the anticipation for his return by keeping him off of TV for awhile.
ReplyDeleteThe flip side is that Punk wasnt QUITE yet a made man at this time and nobody could really guarantee that the angle or Punk would be as hot if they waited 6-8 weeks for a follow up. I dont blame Vince for rushing his return, youre trying to capitalize on the hottest angle you've had in awhile and can also cement Punks status with a Summerslam show stealer. Then they shit the bed with Big Sexy and HHH.
It's such a great soundbite too. They've used it for the wwe 13 promo and I think some other stuff with Punk and it never fails to sound amazing.
ReplyDeletelikewise, and I watch them on a semi-regular basis.
ReplyDeleteEvan Gattis! More HR & RBI than Yasiel Puig in the same # of games played, and Puig's have been mostly--if not all--starts, whereas Gattis has done his damage in a multitude of ways, from multiple positions and off the bench.
ReplyDeleteOtherwise, I'd go with Fernandez.
Get outta here with Rbi's....seriously. Gattis OPS is mid 700s while Puig is mid 900s. It's not even close between those two.
ReplyDeleteIt's Puig vs. Fernandez, end of story.
Oh, and when you compare the two using wins over replacement (WAR), Gattis is a paltry 1.1 vs. Puig's 4.7.
ReplyDeletewell, I suppose since it's *your* opinion, then it must be correct. I like sabermetrics fine, but I don't like the haughty attitude that comes with most that use only sabermetrics to make their arguments. Do you watch MLB Now? I love that show ~
ReplyDeleteWhat is also so fascinating about Gattis is how he took about 4 years off from the game and comes back to take NL pitching by storm. That's a pretty impressive feat, regardless of the more nuanced statistics, which aren't too far off. The spread on the OPS is ~.150. Puig's WAR is impressive, however.
I'm not denying Puig's talent, to be clear. He's a 5-tool player, for sure, and will probably win out. I just think Gattis has a better story & comparable numbers in limited time.
What's my opinion, that RBI's are based on the players around you more than your true performance? That's really not an opinion, ask any baseball expert.
ReplyDeleteAs for stories, Gattis' story is good, but not as good as Puig who left a poverty stricken dictatorship to make it in a foreign country and be considered not only a great rookie, but one of the best players in all of baseball.
I don't think there's analyst that would disagree at the disparity between these two players.
Hey now, Trips was just doing what was BEST FOR BUSINESS.
ReplyDeleteSee, HHH got Punk more over by pinning him in September, and then leaching his heat for a match with Nash, that's just how it works.
Just like it did for Booker T and Goldberg right?
Trips has 13 world titles
ReplyDeleteHBK has 4.
Almost no one disputes that HBK is the greater legend.
HHH is a hall of famer with his career, but I don't have him as a top ten world champion
Agree to disagree on keeping it hot for six months. But we can agree that both these ideas are far better than what actually happened.
ReplyDeleteExactly. Karl Malone is in the top 5 on the all time scoring list. Nobody will see him as a top 5 player, or even forward.
ReplyDeleteHe's close to a top 5 PF, def top 10 all-time. He was the best player on a two-time NBA finals team and had to get through a loaded western conference. He also has an MVP and is one of the best scorers at his position in NBA history.
ReplyDeleteIf Recognizability outside the sport counts for anything (and It's perfectly acceptable to say it doesn't) I just had to google who the fuck Karl Malone is.
ReplyDeleteThat's an age thing.
ReplyDeleteDo you know who Moses Malone, George Gervin or Dave Cowens are? (no cheating, do not look up)
Oh, and he had a fairly famous angle in WCW, Karl Malone did.
ReplyDeleteNope.
ReplyDeleteIt might also be a being Canadian thing if this is going where I think it is...
It's not going anywhere. My point is, unless you study sports history from before you are a fan, you only really know the super-duper-stars from previous eras.
ReplyDeleteGrowing up, I only knew of Wilt, Bill Russell, Bob Cousy and guys of that caliber. It wasn't until I took an interest, that I learned of other stars.
Those 3 I listed were incredible players, but who remembers them if (a) you're young now and (b) you don't care enough about basketball to dig into its past.
Karl Malone was a huge star and is easily one of the best PF's of all time. Just because you didn't know who he was (interest, age), doesn't change the fact. Bet you know who Larry Bird, Magic Johnson and of course, Michael Jordan are.
Yup, all three of them I know
ReplyDeleteDefinitely one of the absolute best PPVs ever - it's obviously most remembered for the main-event, but it was fantastic from start to finish.
ReplyDeleteFucking ice-cream bars...
ReplyDeleteBlue Blazers are bad luck.
ReplyDeleteAnd HHH is a top 5 guy from a loaded era with one year as MVP.
ReplyDeleteYou don't give ROY to a guy who got sent down. And as great a story as Gattis has been, it still pales in comparison to Puig and Fernandez. I'm of the mind that they share it right now. Maybe a slight edge to Fernandez as of late.
ReplyDeleteI never knew he was a Charlie's Angel.
ReplyDeleteWow this is some EPIC heat.
ReplyDelete