http://www.wwe.com/classics/15-best-pay-per-views
#1 WrestleMania X-Seven
#2 Money in the Bank 2011
#3 Royal Rumble 2000
#4 Spring Stampede 1994
#5 WrestleMania III
#6 Great American Bash 1989
#7 SummerSlam 2013
#8 One Night Stand 2005
#9 No Way Out 2001
#10 In Your House: Canadian Stampede
#11 Extreme Rules 2012
#12 Bash at the Beach 1996
# 13 Backlash 2009
#14 Heat Wave 1998
#15 Survivor Series 1995
Honorable Mentions:
SummerSlam 1991
WrestleMania X
WCW Great American Bash 1996
ECW Barely Legal
Backlash 2000
Invasion
SummerSlam 2002
Bad Blood 2004
Summerslam 2002 and Backlash 2000 getting honorable mentions doesn't work for me. Also, InVasion? Really?
Thoughts on the list?
#1 WrestleMania X-Seven
#2 Money in the Bank 2011
#3 Royal Rumble 2000
#4 Spring Stampede 1994
#5 WrestleMania III
#6 Great American Bash 1989
#7 SummerSlam 2013
#8 One Night Stand 2005
#9 No Way Out 2001
#10 In Your House: Canadian Stampede
#11 Extreme Rules 2012
#12 Bash at the Beach 1996
# 13 Backlash 2009
#14 Heat Wave 1998
#15 Survivor Series 1995
Honorable Mentions:
SummerSlam 1991
WrestleMania X
WCW Great American Bash 1996
ECW Barely Legal
Backlash 2000
Invasion
SummerSlam 2002
Bad Blood 2004
Summerslam 2002 and Backlash 2000 getting honorable mentions doesn't work for me. Also, InVasion? Really?
Thoughts on the list?
Survivor Series 96 is way better than 95. I am glad that Summerslam 92 isn't on the list though.
ReplyDeleteSomeone must say it, right? Ok: Canadian Stampede should probably be a touch higher. Two spots or so, depending on how much you dig Bash '89.
ReplyDeleteSummerslam 98 deserved at least an honorable mention. That show ruled.
ReplyDeleteI liked Invasion.
ReplyDeleteGlad to see Spring Stampede 94 get some recognition. Always felt like that show gets forgotten with the coming Hogan entrance into WCW.
ReplyDeleteI don't know, there's too much stuff all over the card that should have been better than it wound up being. The main event is screwed up because one of the participants wrestles half of it pretty much unconscious, HHH's knee is fucked, and there's all sorts of goofy Russo booking (the tag title match specifically).
ReplyDeleteThe shorter matches are better than they could have been, Owen / Shamrock is bit of weird genius, and it's certainly better than, oh, pretty much any PPV for the next 12 months. But I could probably come up with six PPVs from 2000 alone that were better. Something like Royal Rumble 2000 is a better example of that type of Attitude-era show, only with an awesome title match thrown in.
I'm glad No Way Out 2001 got some love. It's often overshadowed by X-7.
ReplyDeleteRoyal Rumble 2000 is a great show but it's way too high. The Rumble itself wasn't even all that impressive. RR 2001 was a much superior show, though I can see why they wouldn't want to include it on the list given that the Jericho/REDACTED ladder match was one of the highlights.
ReplyDelete"Spring Stampede '94" was amazing in person! Biggest crowd WCW had for a PPV since GAB '89. It felt more like a 'big time' show. Considering what happened to Steamboat later that year, I'm glad I can say I saw Flair-Steamboat live and in living color. The Nasty Boys-Cactus Jack/Kevin Sullivan chicago street fight blew the house down. I've never cared much for their Philly match at Slamboree a month later.
ReplyDeleteI'd say SummerSlam '02 is underrated and Canadian Stampede needs to be a few places higher. I can't recall in any detail half of the PPV's in the top 15.
Backlash 2000 absolutely deserves to be on there. Storyline closure to the McMahon-Helmsley regime, all kinds of great matches, and incredibly re-watchable.
ReplyDeleteSummerSlam 2002 is a freaking INCREDIBLE show. That tag title match is pretty much a clinic in tag formula wrestling by three of the best at it (... and Lance Storm). Brock / Rock is great, HHH / HBK is great, Benoit did his best to get RVD to something great, Edge / Eddie is great... when Angle and Rey is something like the sixth-best match on a show, it's a good one.
Bad Blood 2004, on the other hand... sweet christ, no. That was Benoit / Kane, wasn't it? And the awful HHH / HBK cell match?
Is that RR-NWO-WM X-7 possibly the greatest string of three consecutive PPVs for any company?
ReplyDeleteI would swap Survivor Series 95' off the list and throw in Spring Stampede 99'. There had to be more Wrestlemania's worthy of the list as well.
ReplyDeleteRumble 2000 had a great undercard, only the Rumble match kind of sucked.
ReplyDeleteSurvivor Series 1995? Outside of the good-but-really-overrated main event at the somewhat decent Wild Card match I remember that show being pretty crappy.
ReplyDeleteObviously missing stuff:
ReplyDelete- Mercy 2000 (Rock / Jericho but really good stuff up and down the card, and I love that opening tag match)
- 2007 Rumble (Cena / Umaga and the ending with Taker and HBK)
- Pretty much any MITB show. I'd agree with 2011 being the best of the bunch, though.
- Survivor Series 1996, as noted.
- Superbrawl II.
- Whichever Backlash had the Taker / Batista LMS match.
And, of course, my favourite underrated show ever - Vengeance 2003. SO much great stuff on that show.
The opener's pretty solid as well, and the women's match is... interesting.
ReplyDeletePersonally, I think I'd be more intrigued by a "Top 15 Worst PPV's" instead of this list.
ReplyDeleteAlso - I'd rather watch PPV's from the '90's than the crap I consider from the '00's.
Yeah, come to think of it that joshi match was pretty good (did I just say I liked a women's match? Hell has officially frozen over...). Still, no fucking way is it better than WMX or GAB 96. And as you mentioned, Superbrawl II needs to be here.
ReplyDeleteThere's probably something more recently that would top it because the Rumble hasn't held up that well. What was the third PPV after WM 23 and Backlash?
ReplyDelete(checks)
Oh, wait, Cena / Khali, never mind. Cena was a freaking miracle worker there, but that show stunk.
trips knee being fucked didn't really hurt the match, though.
ReplyDeleteA dozen sloooooooow cliiiiiiimb spots are probably a symptom of the knee injury changing the pace of things.
ReplyDeleteThere's better matches if you want to see Rock drop a People's Elbow onto a foreign object.
Any WCW PPV from 2000 besides Fall Brawl, there's 11 of the 15 right there. Throw in WMIX, N2R 97, and Starrcade 97 and there's 14. And I guess since WWE owns the AWA rights we can include Superclash III to finish off the list.
ReplyDeleteSo... How were these decided? Because I think it's hi-larious that Royal Rumble is that high on the list (above Bash '89 & Wrestlemania III)
ReplyDeleteSo glad to see Summerslam 2013 stand the test of time. Also, I have a hard time watching anything ECW these days. That fed does not age well. Also of note: no Russo-era PPVs. The Attitude era was so memorable and responsible for the current generation of fans jumping on board, but for quality, it just sucked most of the time.
ReplyDelete1) About ECW, I think it doesn't stand up well in part because what was at the time revolutionary has become a part of standard wrestling fare. However, there are some things that were awful even then. I always thought ROH, CHIKARA, and CZW were the three direct descendants of different aspects of ECW.
ReplyDelete2) Russo worked well because WOW YOU DIDN'T SEE THAT COMING. But upon rewatching it is not pretty. It's why I don't like the Undertaker-HHH Mania matches. Once you take out, "could HHH end the streak?" they're boring.
You're wrong and you should feel bad. MY OPINION IS FACT YOUR OPINION IS OPINION.
ReplyDeleteNo Wrestlemania XX? I'll see myself out.
ReplyDeleteplease submit that as a question for the blog
ReplyDeleteThat's a good question but you have to consider that there was a point where they weren't running monthly.
ReplyDeleteWhat about Night of Champions 2013, Streaming Live this Sunday at 7:30ET/4:30PT?
ReplyDeleteIf Randy Orton is going over it has potential. You can ALWAYS tell if Orton is going over or going to look strong based on the quality of the match.
ReplyDeleteIt's Summerslam 2002 for me. I also liked Wrestlemania 14. Yeah, the match quality isn't the best but it was exactly what Wrestlemania should be - a bunch of storylines that had been building for months being blown off.
ReplyDeleteIf Summerslam 2013 is there the Wrestlemania X (Another 2 match show) should be too.
ReplyDeleteSummerslam 2002 is severely, severely underrated.
ReplyDeleteWas the show before GAB96 (I can't remember if was Slamboree or Spring Stampede) any good. If so I'd say that's your winner.
ReplyDeletejudgment day 2000
ReplyDeletesummerslam 98
no mercy 02
It was a lethal lottery tournament. It was not.
ReplyDeleteRic Flair circa 1989, Chris Benoit in 2004, Daniel Bryan in 2013, CM Punk in 2011 and HHH in 2000 couldn't get above 3.5 stars with Khali. Khali looks like his body was assembled by people with only cursory knowledge of how the human body works. He looks like he's going to hurt himself walking.
ReplyDeleteaside from the ladder match having too much of a legendary status, summerslam 98 is start finish a homerun. no match under ***1/2, a few hovering around ****
ReplyDeleteOrton sucks my ass.
ReplyDeleteThree match show for me, and too much filler.
ReplyDeleteSuperbrawl II deserves all the love it can get. And YES for Survivor Series 1996.
ReplyDeleteI don't know if that's an absolute rule - he lost that title match on Smackdown against Rey and that was EXCELLENT.
ReplyDeleteWhen alot of PPVs are 1 match shows and get praised?
ReplyDeleteI'll take it.
I always liked the Big Show/Cena match, Rock & Sock v Evolution match, the Christian/Jericho match, and the Lesnar/Goldberg match is perversely enjoyable plus you have the amazing Guerrero/Angle match and the balls out Triple Threat. Plus, I always mark out for the return of the dead man.
ReplyDeleteShit, it's been so long since I've seen that show I totally forget the some of those matches (The Evolution/Rock & Sock tag, Show/Cena) were on there.
ReplyDeleteAnyway, the Triple Threat is the EXACT reason it's not on there.
That would mean WWE admitting that they've put on terrible PPVs.
ReplyDeleteThey'd never do that.
Fair enough. I know the show after BATB 96 (Hog Wild, I believe) was a shitpile, outside of a really good Rey Jr. match.
ReplyDeleteBash '89 is SIXTH?!?!?!? PLEASE...should be 2 or 1b.
ReplyDeleteAnd how is Rumble '92 missing? Best rumble match ever, and the only one with the title on the line.
It's good to see he has hobbies outside of wrestling.
ReplyDeleteI was in the building for SummerSlam 2002 and it wasn't a good show, it was a great show.
ReplyDeleteI was also in the building for WrestleMania X but I was only six so my memories are a bit vague and more about the experience than the show itself.
15-Barely Legal 96
ReplyDelete14-WM 7
13-SummerSlam 01
12-World War 3 96
11-KOTR 98
10-Extreme Rules 12
9-MITB 11
8-Survivor Series 90
7-Bash at the Beach 96
6-Fall Brawl 96
5-KOTR 93
4-WM 8
3- One Night Stand 1 and 2
2-WM 9
1- WM 6
WM 9?
ReplyDeletePersonally I think WM 3 should be number one, and WM 6 should be on the list, along with Rumble 92. Also Chi-Town Rumble (Steamboat/Flair) should be on there.
ReplyDeleteYes. I fucking love that PPV. Most underrated show of all time.
ReplyDeleteYou're the first person I've ever heard say that they even remotely like it. I don't think it's as bad as a lot of people say, but I can't see myself ever watching it again.
ReplyDeleteI rewatch it all the time. For me, its like watching a tv show where the plot is terrible but the acting is so good you keep watching. The only things I think suck about that show is the Taker match and the ending.
ReplyDeleteI've never seen the full show, but just the 92 Rumble match alone means it deserves a spot over the fucking Invasion show.
ReplyDeleteThat's the only 2 things I remember about the show, honestly.
ReplyDeleteShould WWE be concerned that not one Wrestlemania in the past dozen years made the list?
ReplyDeleteNo love for No Mercy 2008? You've got two ****1/2+ main events (HHH/Hardy and HBK/Jericho) and a surpringly great Taker/Show match that almost hit ****.
ReplyDeleteWhile shitting in a gym bag? Big multitasker, this guy.
ReplyDeleteAnything from 1995 being on that list is hilarious.
ReplyDeleteI, for one, can't think of a more effective "enhanced interrogation technique" than making your detainee watch KOTR '95.
ReplyDeleteBad Blood 2004 getting an honorable mention? Come on now.
ReplyDeleteI wouldn't be surprised to see it employed in the new season of Homeland.
ReplyDeleteWrestlemania 6, really? Aside from Hogan/Warrior, that show was pretty terrible.
ReplyDeleteI can somewhat agree on SurSer '95. It was a great show all in all, but #15 of all time is kinda pushing it.
ReplyDeleteAnd even Hogan Warrior was more "crap, Pat Patterson can lay out a match like nobody's business" than anything GOOD.
ReplyDeleteI gotta put in my two cents for my little puppy: Vengeance 2003. Historical impact? Perhaps not. But match quality? Superb:
ReplyDeleteBrock/Kurt/Show: ****1/4
WGTT vs Rey/Kidman: ****1/4
Eddie vs Benoit: ****
Taker vs Cena: ***3/4
:D
Wow! Whats next? Heroes of Wrestling?
ReplyDeleteHow many PPVs have had 3 matches that good though?
ReplyDeleteFully Loaded 2000 (Rock v. Benoit, HHH v. Jericho-Last Man Standing, Angle v. Undertaker) was worthy of AT LEAST Honorable Mention
ReplyDeleteProbably not one that many people would consider a Top 15 show, but "Extreme Rules, 2011" is a very underrated show, and definitely better than some of the ones listed above. Cena/Miz/Morrison in a cage and the Christian/ADR ladder match was a fantastic 1-2 punch.
ReplyDeleteNo idea how InVasion, Bad Blood, or any ECW PPV could get ranked ahead of Souled Out 1998, Spring Stampede 1999, or Wrestlemania XX.
ReplyDeleteWrestlemania XX was likely left off the list because of Benoit's involvement in the main event.
ReplyDeleteThat's a pretty generous list towards ECW is it not?
ReplyDeleteHow in the world do you give the Oddities/Kaientai ***?
ReplyDeleteHow many 4* matches does Heroes of Wrestling have?
ReplyDeleteYeah, that's not a fair comparison. HOW is not even in the same league as any shitty WWE/WCW/ECW show. Hell, it's not even the same fuckin' sport.
ReplyDeleteGood list overall. I didn't care for ONS 2005, personally I thought the 2006 event was better. Good to see some love for SS '95.
ReplyDeleteI would have given at least an honorable mention to Wrestlemania 22. Classic hardcore match between Edge and Foley, HBK-McMahon is a hellaciously entertaining garbage brawl, both world title matches deliver, even if neither hits classic territory, and we even get a genuinely good women's match into the bargain.
The Las Vegas set was certainly different. Surprised they've never dusted it off for any subsequent shows. Unless they have and I'm forgetting something...
ReplyDeleteWMXIX deserves a second look too.
ReplyDeleteDon't forget the Trish angle... Good stuff.
ReplyDeleteSurvivor Series 98 probably deserves to be on there (that was still Russo, right?) for the awesome (and coherent!) story it tells.
ReplyDeleteSummerslam 2013's historic status will probably forever be tied to how high up Punk and Bryan climb on the all time greats list.
ReplyDeleteBut there was that time Flair got 3 stars out of El Gigante. Damn, I wish Khali and Gigante could have "wrestled."
ReplyDeleteThe final match at Survivor Series is actually damn good as well. Plus, it reminds us that Miz does the "Skull Crushing Finale" better than Jericho. Which seems somehow un-possible.
ReplyDeleteSome questionable choices, but a decent list overall I guess
ReplyDeleteJoey's gotta suck up to the boss so they'll let him keep putting out list like this.
ReplyDeletesee also: All the RRs he's booked. Amazing that one man can be responsible for so much awesome.
ReplyDeleteIt's pretty close for me. The Rumble matches for both of those eyars are probably my two favorite ever, and the cards were strong overall.
ReplyDeleteMind going into more detail on what you love about it, specifically? I can't wrap my head around this.
ReplyDeleteCouldn't disagree more. The Rumble match was pretty awesome IMO. I especially loved how over Rikishi was and the running gag of Taka's faceplant.
ReplyDeleteYeah, 14 deserves some more love for officially setting off the Austin era. It's also a great "season finale" style WM, as opposed to the shows that don't resolve anything and could have been any old PPV.
ReplyDeleteDon't worry. They would just list all WCW PPVs.
ReplyDeleteIn that it actually put an ECW show on it? Yeah, I'd say that's pretty generous.
ReplyDeleteIt's the last show that really fit into the late 80's early 90's vibe. JR's debut and the awesome trio of him, Bobby, and Savage. Gorilla and Mean Gene still rocking it. The presentation and the look of it, the outside arena/togas/elephants everything. Plus, it was the first PPV I ever ordered and it landed on my birthday so I had a big ass party.
ReplyDeleteAnd the match quality is so underrated. A kick ass Steiners/Headshrinkers match, pretty good opener between HBK and Tatanka, decent Luger/Perfect match, and Bret carrying Yoko to a good match.
How many does Wrestlemania IX have?
ReplyDeleteOne. Steiners/Headshrinkers.
ReplyDeleteSurprised to even see Heatwave 98 in the list. It IS a great show, just surprised it was acknowledged at all.
ReplyDeleteand...Spring Stampede 94 over Bash 89...nahhh...
That 3way cage was such a Cena jerk-off contest.
ReplyDelete(Gravely voice) "Hey nerd dont forget about that fucking 47 minute classic Shawn and I had in 04!"
ReplyDeleteAlso has Mountie vs. Piper which is a ***+ in its own way.
ReplyDeleteAbsolutely agree. One of the top ten shows ever in terms of pure match quality.
ReplyDeleteAgree on WM9 - it's a decent card that gets unfairly shit on.
ReplyDeleteI'm probably in the minority, but I think "inVasion" is a pretty good PPV. Sure, the storyline had already turned to shit at that point, and the card was hardly the "dream card" we were all hoping for, but it had some good matches and a unique atmosphere.
ReplyDeleteFair enough. I'd argue that nostalgia may be a huge factor here, what with the b-day party and all, but that's a reasonable justification. Even if I, personally, disagree.
ReplyDeleteYell yes, that set was pretty cool.
ReplyDeleteOne of those things is not like the others. Two 4 star plus matches that made the undercard guys look great despite losing, and one Undertaker squash match where he made Angle look like a big piece of garbage.
ReplyDeleteNo way. It's a fine little tag match, but I wouldn't go that far.
ReplyDeleteWrestlemania IX has three DQs or countouts, two world title matches ending because of salt, and I think only 2 of the 8 matches have clean finishes. Bad show.
Christian/ADR was really good too, though. Not nearly as good as Punk/Brock or Bryan/Cena, but I wouldn't say it was just a two match show with nothing else worthwhile.
ReplyDeleteAlso, to me anyway, Summerslam 2013 had nothing as mind numbingly bad as Yokozuna/Luger with the 15 minute long nerve pinch or whatever the hell it was.
This is all WWE's list and opinions. 19, 24, and 28 could easily make the list if it was strictly WWE PPV's
ReplyDeleteEver since mid 07 or so it's been that way. The No Mercy Last Man Standing match against Triple H is the best the two have ever had, and it's the only one that Orton won clean and looked strong in
ReplyDeleteWrestlemania 28 is a 3 match show(fucking awesome 3 matches) and it gets so much shit.
ReplyDeleteYou're the Fuj, master of everything, why is this?
Steiners/Shrinkers is more than a fine little match. It's fast paced, no selling, insane bumps, and kick ass double team moves.
ReplyDeleteAnd the salt thing wasn't them being lazy, its part of the story.
I smell Triple H...
ReplyDeleteWM17?
ReplyDeleteThe match has never stood out to me as being anything other than good. It's aged well though.
ReplyDeleteAnd it's a shitty story at that. It made Hogan and Yokozuna both look bad, and Fuji look like an idiot. Killed Yokozuna's aura they had built up.
Bret is the only one who came out okay. The show is bad finishes up and down the show.
Yoko actually did pretty well as a heel champ. It didn't kill him.
ReplyDeleteIt killed his aura as the big evil menace. Hogan comes in and beats him in 20 seconds flat. I don't think he ever really recovered, especially with the Luger mess.
ReplyDeleteBecause the top matche(s) failed to deliver.
ReplyDeleteThats why SuperBrawl 8 isn't on this list, whereas WM3 is.
He recovered because he basically squashed Hogan at the next PPV, and held the title til 10. One of the few decent heel draws WWE ever had.
ReplyDeleteI don't know big a draw he was, since 1993 is generally considered to be a down year for the WWF
ReplyDeleteIf you like Storytelling PPVs, then Survivor Series 98 belongs on the list.
ReplyDelete93/94 was a down year but Yoko did pretty decent drawing house shows. I'm not claiming he was some huge draw.
ReplyDeleteI'd go with Judgment Day, Fully Loaded, SummerSlam 2000. All killer, no filler.
ReplyDeleteFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCK. Knew I missed something. I thought that was up there already. Alright, replace Summerslam 2001 with that.
ReplyDelete...One month is standing the test of time?
ReplyDeleteYou know what looks like one of the best PPVs on paper? WrestleMania 2000. It was disappointing, but leading up to it I was like "this is going to be the best thing ever."
ReplyDeleteAt least the show somewhat set a template, or was a harbinger of things to come (the hardcore match, the triple threat, three-way ladder...).
It's kind of amazing though, how WrestleMania 17 still blows everything out of the water. It's an evergreen show, too; twelve years later and it hasn't aged. A 1989 show would've looked like shit by 2001. I can't imagine it being topped.
Wheres WM 19 and XX? Two of my favorites
ReplyDeleteTrue, but it's a really good Cena jerk-off contest.
ReplyDeleteAbsolutely. The IC four-way is one of the least talked about GREAT matches of all time.
ReplyDeleteAnd therefore, you get what I'm saying....
ReplyDeleteYeah, this is a long-forgotten show for no real good reason.
ReplyDeleteHeck, even the comedy hardcore match (the barroom brawl) is one of the funniest variants on that.
Kidman and Rey were SUCH a great team. Damn shame they never did much beyond that.
Yeah, good point. How is One Night Stand '05 on there but not two of the best Wrestlemanias?
ReplyDeleteIt's interesting you say that. I was at WM2000 (age 17) and even leading up to it I remember thinking the ladder match and the triple-threat were the only matches that sounded like show-stealers. I expected the 4-way main event would be good, but didn't expect a five-star classic or anything. I was of course stoked to be going, but didn't expect a top-to-bottom great card or anything.
ReplyDeleteYeah, that was a good show
ReplyDeleteHow is Survivor Series 1995 or any ECW PPV on there over. . .
ReplyDeleteWrestlemania 10
Wrestlemania 19
Wrestlemania 20
Backlash 2000
Fully Loaded 2000
Judgment Day 2000
Agree on all those shows. and Survivor series '95 is on there?
ReplyDeleteThat show was indeed terrible.
ReplyDeleteAbsolutely. Judgment Day 2000 is a personal favorite, right up until Undertaker's return interrupts a classic. That was seriously the ONLY way they could figure out to bring him back?
ReplyDeleteI don't know. Great as WM10 is, it didn't have anything outside the two classic matches.
ReplyDeleteJust for the hell of it, my (probably) Top Ten PPVs:
ReplyDelete1) No Way Out, 2001
2) WrestleMania XIX (2003)
3) Vengeance, 2003
- Extreme Rules, 2011
- Extreme Rules, 2012
- IYH: Canadian Stampede (1997)
- King of the Ring, 1993
- Money In The Bank, 2011
- Survivor Series, 1998
- WrestleMania X7 (2001)
I'll also add that (ECW's) "Hardcore Heaven, 2000" is one of my faves.
Now come on, Superclash III at least had a pretty good World title match. WOW Unleashed and Heroes Of Wrestling should be on the list no matter what.
ReplyDeleteHow did Heatwave '98 become such an overrated show?
ReplyDeleteI feel like the people who call that a great show are just doing that to make themselves look hip, much like the people who call Troll 2 the worst movie of all time when it wasn't even the worst movie of 1992, let alone all time.
D'oh.
ReplyDeleteThe quality of that match is instantly negated by amazingly stupid finish and the bullshit politics that led to the finish taking place. I agree that HoW (and the I-Generation PPV, and many WWA and TNA PPVs) was worse, but I was just going by the guidelines of the original list. In other words, if WWE can't post video of on their site it doesn't count.
ReplyDelete