Vince McMahon Made Last Minute Changes to RAW
Orignally, the plan was for Cody Rhodes & Goldust to face the Shield in a handicapped match. However, Vince made the decision at the last minute to have the Sheild vs. Uso's in order to set up the three way at the PPV.
Credit Mike Johnson, PWInsider.com
WWE Injury Updates
Here are an update on a few:
Bray Wyatt is currently off crutches
Dean Ambrose was limping around slightly backstage after RAW but it is not believed to be anything serious
There was a lot of talk about CM Punk being really banged up after his tag match. However, Mike Johnson reports that he was not able to get confirmation as to what specifically happened
Credit Mike Johnson, PWInsider.com
Backstage Thoughts on Triple H's Comments on RAW
According to Mike Johnson of PWInsider.com, he was told that there were many people backstage shaking their heads at the comments made by HHH about Daniel Bryan not being a star. The feeling by those people is that it just buried Bryan as a performer instead of coming off as a villian that was knocking a hero in a way that Bryan could get back at him
Credit Mike Johnson, PWInsider.com
Rob Van Dam is no Longer Under WWE Contract
This is a direct quote from the WWE office regarding the contract status of RVD:
"Rob Van Dam is currently not under a performance contract with WWE"
Credit Dave Meltzer, F4Wonline.com
NXT Star Getting Good Reviews for his Work on this Weekend's House Shows
Tyler Breeze was getting praised for his work this weekend on the house show circuit, especially for his heel mannerisms.
Credit Mike Johnson, PWInsider.com
Orignally, the plan was for Cody Rhodes & Goldust to face the Shield in a handicapped match. However, Vince made the decision at the last minute to have the Sheild vs. Uso's in order to set up the three way at the PPV.
Credit Mike Johnson, PWInsider.com
WWE Injury Updates
Here are an update on a few:
Bray Wyatt is currently off crutches
Dean Ambrose was limping around slightly backstage after RAW but it is not believed to be anything serious
There was a lot of talk about CM Punk being really banged up after his tag match. However, Mike Johnson reports that he was not able to get confirmation as to what specifically happened
Credit Mike Johnson, PWInsider.com
Backstage Thoughts on Triple H's Comments on RAW
According to Mike Johnson of PWInsider.com, he was told that there were many people backstage shaking their heads at the comments made by HHH about Daniel Bryan not being a star. The feeling by those people is that it just buried Bryan as a performer instead of coming off as a villian that was knocking a hero in a way that Bryan could get back at him
Credit Mike Johnson, PWInsider.com
Rob Van Dam is no Longer Under WWE Contract
This is a direct quote from the WWE office regarding the contract status of RVD:
"Rob Van Dam is currently not under a performance contract with WWE"
Credit Dave Meltzer, F4Wonline.com
NXT Star Getting Good Reviews for his Work on this Weekend's House Shows
Tyler Breeze was getting praised for his work this weekend on the house show circuit, especially for his heel mannerisms.
Credit Mike Johnson, PWInsider.com
Man Vince has always had such a hard on for the wild dudes from an island gimmick. That has to be the the longest running gimmick the wwwf/WWF/wwe has done. Was Afa the first one or was Vince running it before him?
ReplyDeleteSo here's my take on the whole HHH "burying Bryan/RVD/Jericho/Edge" thing from Monday. I've seen a few semi-defenders of HHH here, as much as anyone could really defend HHH on anything, saying that "it was a heel creating heat" and "Ow, a heel gets fans to hate him by saying something mean about a babyface, news at 11 sarcasm har har". And yes, I get it, in storyline sense that's what he was doing. But the problem is that he's doing it by saying things that A) Render the actual wrestling match meaningless, and B) Go over the head of 99% of their paying audience.
ReplyDeleteMy main gripe is A. When HHH degrades Bryan for not being "a star" and someone who can't draw money, well, how is that supposed to be settled ina wrestling match? It sets up stakes that go beyond whether Daniel Bryan can beat Orton or even HHH himself. It renders matches, which are still what people PAY TO SEE, meaningless because it doesn't matter if Bryan wins a match, it matters whether or not ten years from now we look at daniel Bryan as someone who drew big money. So then what teh fuck am I watching now? Even in that awful backstage segment with Michaels, at one point HBK says "He can win the championship" and HHH blows it off as "yeah he could but he can't be the face of the company." So again, what are we paying to see?? Winning this match is apparently meaningless, winning the title is meaningless, so what can possibly be the climax of this feud?
And the second gripe is just how that kind of snarkiness plays to such an incredibly small portion of the audience. It's INSANE how HHH tries to no-sell or degrade the "smart" audience in every interview he gives, yet he books every storyline and remark to play to ONLY those exact people. I mean, "think about teh children!" If you're a child, or just a wrestling fan who isn't obsessed with every bit of backstage "dirtsheet" drama, what in the hell does all this mean to you? When Triple H says Edge/RVD/Jericho aren't stars, that has to be confusing as hell because...well aren't they wrestlers who have main evented tons of PPVs and won tons of titles and whom WWE has called stars many times before? It comes down again to people having to say..."well then, what teh fuck am I watching?" Nobody is actually a big star, everyone's a failure, the outcomes of these matches don't matter, winning the world title isn't actually a big deal...
Again, I get HHH is a heel and he's supposed to be drawing heat, but this is just bullshit. The average wrestling fan isn't getting a feeling of "boo this man", they're getting a feeling of "well this is all confusing and everyone sucks."
I was a defender of this storyline for awhile post-Summerslam, when I thought they were going to do an underdog-vs-the-corporation storyline correctly, but this is not it. Monday night became a giant muddled mess in which the entire idea of wrestling matches was buried.
Also, I can't imagine how deflating it's going to feel next Monday night when Raw goes on the air with John Cena as WHC while at the same time Daniel Bryan has failed at becoming WWE champion.
ReplyDeleteSo was CM Punk's rant not effective because in the context of wrestling it would make no sense that he was griping about not being a star, as someone who won Money in the Bank twice and had been a World Champion?
ReplyDeleteI understand where you're coming from, but I do think that if Bryan does eventually get into the ring with, and beat, HHH (and I know those are definitely 'ifs'), it does make up for anything HHH says, because people will only remember Bryan tapping/knocking Hunter out in the middle of the ring. Again, that's if that happens, but they seemed to tease it Monday night.
ReplyDeleteBetween wrestling and screwing 3/4 of the Diva's in wrestling I'm surprised Punk isn't in the ICU.
ReplyDeleteAs far as the HHH "burying" Daniel Bryan thing goes, the "YES!" chants aren't going away. In fact, it seems like every time HHH knocks Bryan, the chants get louder in support. And with every report of "people backstage don't like what HHH is doing," the smarks get even more firmly behind Bryan.
ReplyDeleteI'm starting to think many of these wrestling website writers - the more prominent ones, anyway - are in on the joke and are just helping make Bryan a HUUUUGE star with ridiculous amounts of support from all sides.
Heh. So this just shows HHH was giving RVD a nice "good luck on your future endeavors" burial promo.
ReplyDeleteGood point, but to that I'd say:
ReplyDelete1) Punk at least was talking about himself, not degrading other wrestlers and throwing everyone else under the bus as being "not stars". He was giving some concrete examples of his gripes with management (not being promoted enough, collectors cups, not getting to main event Mania) and also he still wasn't calling himself "not a star"— he was still being super cocky and putting himself over as being the greatest thing ever. But he was saying taht despite being the best in the world, management doesn't treat him as such. That's a big difference from what was said about Bryan and the others Monday night. Punk's promo didn't actually tear down anyone.
2) Punk's promo made an actual match and a title seem important. It all led to "winning this match and winning the title is going to be a big fucking deal." Again, that's a huge difference from basically saying that winning a wrestling match doesn't matter.
The most ridiculous part of the "Face of the Company" crap is that come Sunday, it's not Randy Orton OR Daniel Bryan. It never has been either of them, and it never will be.
ReplyDeleteJohn Cena is the public face of the company, has been for years and will continue to be until he can't go anymore. And since he seems to just be a genetic freak, that's going to be a while.
We know that, most everyone knows that, and it's weird and silly to say otherwise in an angle.
Has WWE/F had islander gimmicks longer than hillbillies?
ReplyDeleteI think they go hand-in-hand. If you have Wild Samoans, you have Country Boys. It's in the wrestling rulebook.
ReplyDeleteThey've definitely gone in a direction in which Bryan will be completely fucked if he doesn't decisively beat HHH in a match sometime this year. If Bryan doesn't win the title Sunday— which I now really don't think he does— along with how badly he's been verbally buried, he absolutely can only be redeemed with a huge, clean main event win over HHH. Whether that ever happens, who knows, but I think they've really painted themselves into a corner with that one now.
ReplyDeleteHas there ever been a Hillbilly-and-Wild-Samoan tag team? That would kinda rule, on a low-card comedy kinda level. Imagine Hillbilly Jim and a face-turned Sika beating the Bolsheviks. Ok maybe "rule" is a bit much.
ReplyDeleteI think one question you have to address - is that you are assuming that the "smart" audience is an incredibly small part of their audience? I'm not saying that's not true, but do you know that for a fact? Does anyone have any stats/numbers as to how large the "smart" audience actually is?
ReplyDeleteThey've had the wild island man thing since at least the late 1970's, and theyve pretty much had that gimmick on tv ever since. I'm not sure that hillbilly Jim wasn't the first one and it seems like you don't see that gimmick constantly without interruption like the island savage thing
ReplyDeleteSomewhere on the History of WWE website, there's a listing for a house show in the 1990s where Henry Godwin teamed with "Make a Difference" Fatu.
ReplyDeleteOr in the 80s, Hillbilly Jim subbing for the Tonga Kid with Haku for a mid-card match. If I didn't have actual work to do, I'd be poring over that site now.
Easier way to set-up the 3-way: Have the Usos actually receive their contracted title shot. Have the Shield interfere.
ReplyDelete3-way title match setup without having to address why the Usos have to RE-EARN their #1 contendership.
They could have had Afa realize that he's from AMERICAN Samoa and do a wild patriot gimmick.
ReplyDeleteOnly if he teams with Hacksaw Jim Duggan against the Bolsheviks
ReplyDeleteEven easier: Shield has a rematch clause, Usos are No. 1 contenders. We're throwing everything into one match because why not?
ReplyDeleteI dunno, Hillbilly is funnier to me (also I meant to say Sika instead of Afa). Sika bites the head off a rabbit... hands it to Jim who puts it in a stew.
ReplyDeleteI concede the awesomeness of that idea. But only if we throw in a Sunday dinner scene including Uncle Elmer, Cousin Luke and about a dozen Samoans coming to the farm.
ReplyDeleteThey still needed a segment for Raw though. But that's still a thousand times less complicated than what they actually did.
ReplyDeleteSeriously. Booking can't seriously be anywhere near as hard as they're making it.
Exactly. People don't seem to understand it's all one big show. Sure of the references will go over the head to a portion of the audiences but ANYONE can understand the storyline, "evil bully boss is trying to hold the little guy down"
ReplyDeleteSeth Rollins vs. Jey Uso vs. Cody Rhodes in a preview of the match. Put Jimmy and Goldust on commentary. Bam.
ReplyDeleteBut then Hacksaw teamed with Volkolf to face a Japanese team and...well now I'm just confused.
ReplyDeleteI don't think it's just Vince. 'Wild islanders' has been a staple of pro-wrestling for quite a long time. Afa & Sika spent time in various NWA territories before and after they joined the WWF. The Samoan Swat Team/Headshrinkers spent time in WCCW and JCP before going to the WWF.
ReplyDeleteYup, seconded. This worked on a monthly basis in 1998.
ReplyDeleteI believed the Wrestled in California in the 60's and there was a territory in Hawaii one time I believe
ReplyDeleteYeah - it used to be pretty common to build up tag-team feuds by having the various people face off in singles matches leading up to it. Or they'd have a 6-man where the partners were two guys in a singles feud.
ReplyDeleteHe didn't fail at it. He just couldn't hang onto it long enough for it to matter.
ReplyDeleteinb4 "Same thing"
Polynesian Pacific title I believe. I saw a promo where Jerry Lawler was the champ and was going to wrestler Tamina's dad.
ReplyDeleteYup. But now WWE's big plan to build up a tag team feud for a PPV is to put on the actual match they're building for the PPV.
ReplyDeleteMuch like how a person gets a title shot on PPV by facing the champ on TV. It's almost elegant in its absurdity.
It's like the guys planning out the shows never watched wrestling before.
ReplyDeleteThey were definitely around for awhile but Vince has had that gimmick in one form or another on TV for 35 years.
ReplyDeleteWho was that again? They never reference it on TV.
ReplyDeleteI think this is *really* overthinking things. Ultimately no one cares what the ratings or quarterly earnings reports are: for storyline purposes Triple H is being proven wrong about Bryan everytime Raw ends with someone leading the crowd in a massive YES chant (and Michaels drove that home with a club for anyone who wasn't catching on Monday night). Secondly:
ReplyDelete"Even in that awful backstage segment with Michaels, at one point HBK
says "He can win the championship" and HHH blows it off as "yeah he
could but he can't be the face of the company." So again, what are we
paying to see??"
Bwuh? Bryan is good enough to win, but the boss doesn't want him to be the face of the company so he's trying to get the belt on Orton. The "face of the company" is the WWE champion, so how does the title not matter? Also too, this is the same premise that started Vince-Austin, and that turned out okay.
Johnny Snickers or something like that...
ReplyDeleteTrue.
ReplyDeleteIt seems like the 'territories' would grab up a good 'islander' team if one became available, while WWF has gone out of it's way to make sure there's one on the roster.
But the USOs aren't really depicted as 'crazy wildmen'. They're outfit and image seems to me to be presented more as them giving tribute to past Samoan wrestlers and heritage, rather than them actually being illiterate savages themselves.
Woo! Downvote!
ReplyDeleteCompletely agree...unfortunately, I think there's a far greater chance that we see a HHH-Big Show match than a HHH-Bryan match. I hope I'm wrong.
ReplyDeleteI would love a DVD or collection of non-WWF, non-JCP/WCW Flair matches from various territories. There's probably some good stuff in the nether regions of YouTube.
ReplyDeleteI think there's a very good chance of a HHH-Bryan match, I just don't expect it to be one that Bryan wins cleanly. If he does win it will probably be through something goofy.
ReplyDeleteThe silver lining is if Sandow cashes in and wins.
ReplyDeleteHHH is feuding with Bryan. He's kind of supposed to tear him down verbally.
ReplyDeleteAt this point Sandow should be cashing in for the WCW TV title.
ReplyDeleteDownload the App for exclusive content!
ReplyDeleteThe Wild Samil-billies?
ReplyDeleteThe trouble with this whole thing is, wrestling is about making money. They do PPV's monthly to make more money.
ReplyDeleteSo why are you burying one of the contenders in your main event?
That's the point I don't get. You can say you don't like him, but you have to put over how legit he is, and all i've really seen is Triple H smirking and not taking him at all seriously. DB is but a pimple on H's ass, nothing more.
To me, that's not "best for business".
Punk's been burying Axel for months, he's no better than HHH.
ReplyDeletePunk towed the line between Kayfabe and reality. Nothing he said couldn't have been felt by a REAL athlete who felt he was the best WRESTLER in the company.
ReplyDeleteIt made sense whether you knew about backstage or not--HHH's requires you to know something about Backstage politics
...I don't even... Punk doesn't book himself. Punk shows Ass all the damn time, if not in that one specific case. Look at the two Lesnar feuds and tell me Punk and HHH are the same
ReplyDeleteSometimes I think people expect a shoot exposition at the end of every Raw or something.
ReplyDeleteBut that's kind of the key point. You're supposed to read the script like a mark, and remember that it's written following the rules of an alternate universe where the stuff going on is real. So sure, if it wasn't, then the whole thing is stupid because Cena's the face of the company no matter what. But for kayfabe purposes, the WWE Champion is the face of the company by default, hence why Triple H doesn't want Bryan to win the belt.
ReplyDeleteWhy bother? He can probably find it in a trash can in the back.
ReplyDeleteThe Hillshrinkers
ReplyDeleteThe fans have rejected Axel because the dude is mediocre in the ring and cuts promos like a goof taking a shit.
ReplyDeleteAnd that in particular is also such a bad example of "Punk being no better than HHH" in terms of burials. At least Punk and Axel have had some even steven type fights, even if Punk won in the end. What happened anytime HHH and Axel fought? HHH booked himself to absolutely dominate every exchange and treat Axel like a joke. Dude, on Axel's debut HHH came into the ring, slapped Axel down to teh floor and called him a loser. It's fucking pathetic.
I think I have more fun with the WWE right now that I have the Blog of Doom to accentuate it. Between the discussion, the wild overreactions and crazy armchair booking, I don't get this kind of enjoyment from football or baseball.
ReplyDeleteMaybe comics. But even that kind of cooled off once they brought Hal Jordan back and HEAT had nothing to complain about...
Axel is not very good. Why would you put him over Punk?
ReplyDeleteThey are booking Bryan exactly as management sees him: as a main event place holder, but never to be "the guy", like Punk or Mick Foley. If they had complete faith in him they wouldn't have booked Big Show, HHH, Steph, The Shield, HBK in his first main event level angle. They obviously dont think he can draw or keep the audience engaged, hence all the peripheral bullshit.
ReplyDeleteLook at Punk, for over and great hes been the past few years, the only times hes been positioned as the focal point of the show is when hes worked with Cena and HHH. WWE will never run with these guys as "the face" of the company. We can debate all day on whether HHH "buried" Bryan the other night, but I believe everything he said reflects exactly how management feels.
Right, nobody cares what the quarterly earning reports are. 100% correct. Except HHH and the creative team have made that teh central focus of teh goddamn storyline. That is ALL HHH talks about, is who is a "bigger star." And that's my problem with this— they are blowing off winning/losing this match as being important.
ReplyDeleteI ask you, that entire contract signing, did ANYONE focus on winning the actual match? No, it was all nonsense about which stars drew money. If this had been HHH saying "I don't think Daniel Bryan is good enough to beat Randy Orton, the most bad ass wrestler I have" well then I'd be all for it because that would be selling the importance of the MATCH and it would also create stakes in which winning the match was important. Instead, it's all about this other nonsense which sets up stakes that have nothing to do with winning a fight/match.
And I disagree, they took completely different tactics with the Vince/Austin feud. Vince didn't want Austin to be the champ because Austin drank/swore/whatever and he didn't want that being the "face" of the company— correct. But through all that he still built Austin up at every turn. Vince never said Austin wasn't a star, or that he was weak etc— in fact Vince just insulted Austin in ways that made him sound cooler. (This guy drinks too much and always curses and he's too much of a rebel!) With Bryan though they're tearing him down in ways that make viewers think... well, why am I watching this guy? But anyway, put that aside— Austin and Bryan are different people, so I get that you heel against them in different ways. But again my main point is that HHH (the booker of this storyline) is booking things so that the stakes have nothing to do with wrestling matches.
In baseball were fake everyone would be bitching that the Red Sox and Cardinals go over to often, and the Pirates got buried just when their main event push was starting.
ReplyDeleteOf course under this scenario I am just going to pretend that the Yankees are The Undertaker...gone for now but they'll be back.
Like anyone else on this site, I'm just guessing, but I'd say its very reasonable to assume that a much greater portion than not of their 4 million weekly viewers does not keep up with all the behind the scenes gossip. I'd wager its way more just kids and regular wrestling fans who just watch teh shows and have a passing interest in the behind teh scenes stuff.
ReplyDeleteAll HHH does is bury the dirtsheets and internet fans, and then all he does is fucking book things that only they will "get."
This season was horrible as a Yankees fan. I would start to give up on the season just as they started to scrape some wins together and suck me in. And then the cycle would repeat. Next year.
ReplyDeleteThat was the kind of booking in WCW, though, that led me to smarten up a little bit more and start looking online for info. HHH may just be insuring the next gen of Smarks.
ReplyDelete"Right, nobody cares what the quarterly earning reports are. 100%
ReplyDeletecorrect. Except HHH and the creative team have made that teh central
focus of teh goddamn storyline. That is ALL HHH talks about, is who is a
"bigger star." And that's my problem with this— they are blowing off
winning/losing this match as being important."
As far as I can see no one but Triple H/Stephanie are blowing it off, but they're playing the role of the people who own the company, so why would they care more about match outcomes than business at this point?
"I ask you, that entire contract signing, did ANYONE focus on winning the actual match?"
Uh, yeah. Basically everyone BUT Triple H.
"And I disagree, they took completely different tactics with the
Vince/Austin feud. Vince didn't want Austin to be the champ because
Austin drank/swore/whatever and he didn't want that being the "face" of
the company— correct. But through all that he still built Austin up at
every turn. Vince never said Austin wasn't a star, or that he was weak
etc— in fact Vince just insulted Austin in ways that made him sound
cooler. (This guy drinks too much and always curses and he's too much of
a rebel!)"
Well...fair enough, but Triple H isn't Vince and Bryan isn't Austin, so you can't do the same EXACT thing. But the basic angle of "guy who runs the company doesn't want the face to be the champion/face of the company even though he's the best" is the same.
"With Bryan though they're tearing him down in ways that make viewers think... well, why am I watching this guy?"
Serious question: who the hell is thinking this? I mean, they aren't having any problems getting the crowds to do massive YES chants or anything. And that's kind of the whole point: Triple H is playing the role of oblivious owner who is OBVIOUSLY the only person who thinks that Bryan isn't good for business, while anyone watching clearly recognizes that Bryan is the top fan favorite who keeps proving the boss wrong by *getting the customers to show it for him.*
I mean, the only way that doesn't come through is if the viewer can't process visual messages, or if they think Triple H is right about Bryan.
Actually Steven I was damm proud to be a Yankees fan this year. They took everything, injuries, A-Rod distractions, a talented division, more injuries, and kept fighting and contending the entire year. And they didn't complain or bicker about it either, they did it with dignity and class.
ReplyDeleteI don't think they're "in on the joke", but that the entire content of this angle hits way too close to home in this economic climate- the super-rich manager of a near-monopoly holding down an qualified worker for arcane, incoherent reasons.
ReplyDeleteIf WWE's aware of this, and actually playing towards that, then the payoff will be magical.
seriously it's Damian Sandow, who fucking cares about him?
ReplyDeleteAnother thing about the HHH shooty shoot comments from Monday... Forget the fact that by those standards— Edge/Jericho/RVD not ever being "stars"— that HHH himself isn't actually a big star, since the company tanked with him as the sole focus (post Austin/Rock retiring until Cena/Batista took over). Forget that. What about the guy standing next to him, his best buddy, Shawn Michaels? HBK as "face of the company" was a massive tank job. Fuck, HBK as champ came at the time when WWE most was in trouble of "working for Ted Turner." Just amazing how HBK can get treated like he was at Austin/Rock/Hogan levels, when the truth was someone like Edge was actually way more successful. Edge at least had some legit money feuds with Cena and carried Smackdown for a good 5 years. Has HBK ever been as successful? Christ, even his super built up main event match against Taker at Mania 26 (the one Wrestlemania in the "comeback half" of his career that I would say was built around HBK's match as the top draw) tanked.
ReplyDeleteNot saying I don't love HBK as a wrestler and performer, because I do. Dude was awesome. But by those standards, he's not close to being a "big star."
This assumes that you're supposed to take the idea that Jericho or Edge couldn't have been The Guy seriously.
ReplyDeleteI'm right there with you on the pride aspect, man. Living in Queens, I've got an old guy living in my building who spends most of his days sitting on the stoop. Every day he saw me wearing my Yankees cap, he asked me why I would want to, because they weren't making the playoffs this year. Every day, I said, "They're my team, and they're doing great."
ReplyDeleteI was more referencing how heart-wrenching this season was, to come so close to shutting a whole bunch of people up. I spent the whole season - and will continue to do so this winter - telling Yankees bashers that the team was top notch this year, and fought tooth and nail for as long as they could.
Well we're definitely getting HHH-Show. The best hope is that the purpose of that is for HHH to get a win before jobbing to Bryan.
ReplyDeleteThough at this point, I wouldn't be surprised if that order is reversed. (Bryan loses to HHH, than HHH gets beat by Show in the blow-off at Mania.)
I honestly think HHH os trying to rewrite history so that hell be remembered as on the same level as Rock and Austin. Hes gor the power and the authority to smudge the facts so in 10 years the narrative, along with his numerous title reigns will let him claim to be the best ever. No doubt in my mind hes trying to change the perspective and narrative of his place in history.
ReplyDelete...but it's not Cena. He can job to him on Smackdown while leaving the WWE title scene to DBry.
ReplyDeleteYeah I get what your saying there. I live in North Carolina now but I went up to NJ for the 4th and that Saturday went to Yankees/O's. As chance would have it Andy Pettitte was pitching, he got the win, Mariano came in for the save, and I got to say goodby to both of them. So I will always have that.
ReplyDeleteI just meant that the WWE is coming up with stuff to feed the smarks to whip us into a frenzy, and instead of the dirt sheetz discovering info and reporting it, they are working with the 'E to boost clicks and increase buzz.
ReplyDeleteIt's not unheard of in a media-savvy world. Triple H seems like the kind of dude who would completely do something like that.
I dont think they ever could have gotten to Austin, Rock, Cena level. They are on the next level with Angle, Foley, Guerrero though.
ReplyDeleteOh definitely, and hey he owns the company and he can do what he wants, so might as well. But as a fan it's just maddening.
ReplyDeleteIt's funny, the entire Clique consists of guys who were relative failures as "face of the company." Diesel of course might be the biggest flop WWE champ of all-time, especially for someone who had that long and sustained of a push. Then that was followed by HBK, whose babyface title reign also did shit, culminating with him getting booed out of MSG against Sid.
And then of course HHH himself, whose time as the face of Raw (Mania 18/19 through the Cena era) led to a huge drop in business.
As far as "faces of teh company" go, they were all rejected by the fanbase.
The best response to your comments (which I agree with) is for you to watch and listen to some of his comments in this video.
ReplyDeleteI go back and forth on this. HHHs run coincided with Austin and Rock leaving, so you could argue that a drop in business was inevitable. You could also argue HBK and Diesel were the top guys when the product was so bad that nobody coyld have drawn at the top.
ReplyDeleteI dont know if I believe this, I flip flop depending on the argument and my mood that day.
My main gripe with The Dreaded HHH promo is that he claimed he only wrestles 'stars' like Brock, Rock, UT, not 'guys like Bryan.' HHH basically christened the guys who work once a year as the REAL stars, who are above the guys who are on the road 50 weeks a year. It cheapens the entire roster, especially when Bryan wasn't given a chance to retort.
ReplyDeleteIt's a great gimmick that instantly adds a sense of danger to the guys, and gives them an opportunity to be successful without having to talk much.
ReplyDeleteAnd I don't think that it's Vince specifically.
Its that type of thinking that makes it extremely hard to create new stars.
ReplyDeleteI see the Shawn in 1995 and 1996 thing a little different. The WWF was a one man company almost. The only thing keeping the heart beat going was hbk, if he's not there titan sports was finished. Nitro and wcw were so far ahead and had so much more star power. Obviously business was way down but it would have been dead without Shawn. The British bulldog and Owen hart (both of whom I love) were two of the 5 biggest stars during that time, and even though they are fantastic wrestlers they didn't exactly ooze it factor.
ReplyDeleteI compare it to sports in general. The NBA wants so badly for Lebron James to be the face of the league and he is nowhere near as popular as they want him to be. Granted, he IS popular, but not on that Jordan level.
ReplyDeleteGo back a few years, Fans LOVED Allen Iverson, but the league wanted Kobe to be the man. Didn't matter how many jerseys dude sold, Stern wanted Kobe. He could (allegedly) rape 1,000 women but it wouldn't matter. Stern wanted Kobe.
This is how I see this playing out: by the time DBry does go over it won't matter because people are thinking, "well HHH will just find a way to screw him" or "Cena will be back next week so the focus will go back to him." This feud has been all about HHH. In fact, I just read an article stating that people backstage think he is burnt out and needs rest. Really>
..yes, but DBry is not getting a chance to really respond.
ReplyDeleteOther than closing out just about every show with the crowd doing his signature chant, anyway.
ReplyDeleteWell Rock and Undertaker are only two of the 5-10 biggest stars in the history of professional wrestling, so...
ReplyDeleteI think Jericho and Edge could have been as big as Cena if the timing had been right. Hell, if WCW had pushed Jericho in 1998/99 they might have even stayed in business a little longer. Either way, I just don't think most people are listening to that thinking "wow, he just put Edge and Jericho in their place," so much as "pfft, Edge and Jericho were awesome dude."
ReplyDeleteHhh gave an interview during punks whc title run against undertaker where he basically said punk going over umdertaker would hurt punk and piss off the fans becuase they wouldn't buy it. There is no chance, that he jobs to Daniel Bryan. I honestly wouldn't even want to see that match. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if they ran taker vs Brock or taker vs punk 2 and the Vince vs hhh thing comes down to hhh beating cena at mania (if you don't think he wants that win back you're crazy) to officially assume control of the wwe...and huntors logic will be that he he's staying strong to put someone over down the line.
ReplyDeleteI mean a verbal sparring match.
ReplyDeletePretty sure most of their writers haven't. Could have sworn I've read things that said Vince/Steph wanted an "outside" perspective on storylines.
ReplyDeleteAnd in a feud, the person getting attacked verbally gets the chance to respond. That is not happening.
ReplyDeletePeople forget that was supposed to be a heel promo
ReplyDeleteHe got the win back
ReplyDeletePunk's kinda like a Horseman/Flair promo... even when you want to boo your ass off, you realize he's right on some level.
ReplyDeleteThis is why I hate "smart" comments on wrestling shows. The majority of the fans aernt the type of wrestling fans on the blog, or theyre kids. They don't give a shit about "smart insider digs" or anything like that. They hear it, and it goes in one ear and out the other. The ten percenr of smart fans theyre targeting is honna tune in either way. It reallt is a lose lose. See: Russos continued booking towards the smatt fans.
ReplyDeleteA perspective SO outside, it's like you're watching a different kind of program. Brilliant!
ReplyDeleteVince: Um, surprise? When doesn't Vince change something at the last minute? Maybe not as bad as late 90's WCW "We get the format during the third segment", but still not a good thing.
ReplyDeleteInjuries: "Don't try this at home.", indeed.
HHH: At this point, not caring is probably a lot safer. Let HHH bury whoever he wants, and hope he picks the wrong target one of these days. (On a sort-of-related note: God, I do wish he'd have tried that shit with Steiner in 2003.)
RVD: (Please don't come back to TNA... please don't... or if you do, prove a lot of people (me included) wrong.)
NXT: Good job, no snarking here. Always nice to hear a positive.
The WWWF made a shitload of money with Haystacks Calhoun back in the 60's. I think he set the standard for that type of character.
ReplyDeleteBut that's the thing, it's a television show, everything doesn't *have* to be verbal. Hell, which of these scenarios actually sounds better for television? A:
ReplyDeleteTriple H: "I like you just fine Daniel, but Randy is better for business."
Bryan: "He is not, I'm awesome and the bestest!"
Or B:
Triple H: "Let's face it Daniel, you're not cut out to be the face of the company."
Bryan: Does something random, jumps into the crowd, everyone does the YES chant with Triple H fuming in the middle of the ring.
I don't really *want* to be defending Triple H, but anyone who's not getting that from the shows is just looking for reasons to bitch about him at this point, IMO.
Has he even been on TV in the last month?
ReplyDeleteRaw ended with Bryan kneeing Orton's head in and jumping on top of a semi truck to lead 20,000 people in his signature chant. How does this not qualify as a response?
ReplyDelete... so let them stay in history. Rock's gone (probably for good), Taker's not got more than a couple handfuls of matches left... why weigh down the "new generation" of potential stars with people they'll never interact with more than once or twice, if that?
ReplyDeleteI'm getting the feeling HHH WANTS a 1993-94 downturn to happen, just so he can go to Vince, say "See, these guys aren't good enough.", and then bring in his own "new guys".
Just a nagging feeling, mainly because I remembered the article from a few days back about WWE wanting "their own" guys from now on.
Side note: 1985 Vince would make a KILLING today, and probably gut WWE in the process by stealing a lot of disgruntled talent. 2013 HHH/Steph would've bankrupted the WWF in 1985.
I like that with one comment, HHH is playing himself as a smarmy prick to the marks AND getting the smarts to pull their hair out because he keeps "burying" our golden boy. Have you ever been to and looked around at the audience members at a live wwe event? Average teeth per person is rivaled by the average IQ points. What they got out of the HHH promo was "Dammit, Maw, he can't talk about our "Yes!" guy like that!" So yeah, HHH effectively tweaked the rube marks and got us workrate whores wringing our hands again. Good job by him!
ReplyDeleteThe crowd was going to chant "Yes!" at DBry regardless, (Case in point Last RAW where the Big Show came into the arena in the truck.)
ReplyDeleteFor the record, I know I just made a "2 + 2 = way more than 4" assumption there.
ReplyDeleteYankees fans have been spoiled if one bad seaso is heartbreaking.
ReplyDeleteCHeck out being a maple leaf fan, or my friend the Mets fan. That's heartbreak
I don't know about that. I think they are trying to elevate as many guys as possible with the angle. It doesn't have to be a zero sum game. They could have just had Bryan but now they have Bryan, the Rhodes Brothers, the Shield all getting raised a bit.
ReplyDeleteEven Rocky had the Nation and the Union, Stone Cold had the whole corporate ministry thing.
So, I thought I'd weigh in a bit on the HHH promo that seems to have bothered a fair number of smarks.
ReplyDeleteI tend to side with the idea that excessively belittling your opponent or making him appear too weak accomplishes nothing. If you beat someone you claimed was not worth your time, what have you gained?
But, mainly...I don't really care all that much. It kind of bugged me to hear him run down Y2J, Edge, etc, and some have correctly pointed out that he rather tanked when he was "the one." But...he's a heel. How much of what he says is "shoot" vs "work" doesn't really matter. He's supposed to be a jerk, and what he said is in line with what his character has been saying and doing since SS.
Do I want to see DBry go over and get an extended run as Champ? Absolutely. Do I expect it to happen? Maybe. Ultimately, if I'm really bothered by the product, I'll vote with my feet. Well...my eyes, I suppose. I'll stop watching. Right now, I'm sufficiently entertained (even as bad as the last two PPVs were), particularly in conjunction with the BOD 'verse. If that changes, I'll stop watching until something else brings me back in. Most recently, it was Punk and DBry. I still enjoy them, and there are others I appreciate seeing as well. Cesaro, the Wyatts, Ziggler, Heyman...that's a good sampling.
Of course, the fucking Matadores and the abomination known as el torito nearly drove me away. But, put torito in a Cesaro Swing and all will be forgiven.
Well, most.
I've said that I'm out if we get a schmoz ending to the HITC main event. To me, that means a non-ending similar to the last PPV. If we get a run ins - and we clearly will from Big Show - or an HBK turn and DBry doesn't get the belt, but the match is compelling and the ending makes some sense, I'll probably be back the next night. Why?
Because sometimes we still get magic moments. DBry winning at SS was brilliant for me, even if it lasted less than 5 mins. Foley getting the belt for the first time is still magic for me. Punk vs DBry at OTL? Fucking poetry. Punk/Cena at MITB, HBK/Taker at HITC or WM, Savage/Steamboat at WM3, the last two matches between Cactus Jack/HHH before Mick "retired", and even the last PPV had the Rhodes angle. Pick your own moments. The problem is that the truly special ones only come around once in awhile, but that's true of anything that is remarkable. The rest of the time is kind of average by definition.
So, Trips can work me with quasi shoots, or not. In the end, it's just entertainment. A diversion from the nasty shit that permeates this world. Is it ideal? Nah. But, I need diversions like this, or I'm apt to completely lose my fucking mind and/or go insane with rage.
Soooo....yeah. I'm saying that WWE is part of what keeps me sane. For now.
:-)
What The Cooler said. If most of the audience isn't getting the smark references, then there's no real downside to them since they just get interpreted as the heel saying heel things about the face. Hence why I don't really think Edge/Jericho/RVD got buried in any meaningful way, because most of the audience is keen enough to the drama to take it as Triple H shitting on them again. It's just a dick thing to say about three really popular guys who aren't inner circle HoF types.
ReplyDelete"Every day he saw me wearing my Yankees cap, he asked me why I would want
ReplyDeleteto, because they weren't making the playoffs this year. Every day, I
said, "They're my team, and they're doing great.""
HAHAHA, come on dude, let's take this down a notch. The Yankees have made the playoffs all but what, twice in the last twenty years? Let's not make it seem like remaining a Yankees fan this year was some kind of act of supreme sports fandom. Try staying a Pittsburgh Pirates fan for the last 20 years. Fact is the Yanks still had the highest payroll in sports by a wide margin— injuries or not, you can't have the NY Yankees play the role of some kind of loveable scrappy underdog. They're a super high priced team that underachieved.
You did, but how much of that comes from HHH, the character vs Paul Levesque, executive? It's not like we haven't seen a huge ego or two take down massively successful companies before, but I really hope he isn't going to be among them.
ReplyDeleteSee, now I actually think this is a great money promo video. Everything HHH said here was leading towards an actual match, and putting over winning the match as the most important thing. He wasn't like "John Cena never drew as much money as me" or "he's not a wrestling star", it was all about how John Cena wouldn't be good enough to beat him in a match. The MATCH was super important, and Cena winning that match would make him a bigger deal and prove HHH wrong.
ReplyDeleteThat's where I think they fucked up on Monday— they basically blew matches off as being meaningless.
Again, back to the stupidity of the Jericho/Edge comment, saying they aren't "big stars" blows off the importance of titles and wins/losses. In terms of what we see on TV, those guys absolutely are huge stars who've won tons of title and main events. Presenting it otherwise just points out the fakeness of what we're watching, and says "Hey, all this fake wrestling match stuff doesn't matter. But also please buy the PPV to watch some fake wrestling matches." That Mania 22 promo, for me, has teh exact opposite feel, ya know?
HHH verbally ran down Bryan. Then, due to a distraction, he kneed his opponent in the face. Not once did he respond to the person who verbally ran him down.
ReplyDeleteHe's from that "character is the person ramped up to 11+" era... and his closest friends/idols are Flair and Michaels (ditto).
ReplyDeleteSo I'm not optimistic that CEOHHH and CEO Paul Levesque are different enough. Same with Steph.
So, to sum this up, you'd rather see Bryan get into a proverbial "am not/am too" pissing contest with Triple H on the mic as opposed to playing to the crowd reaction that makes it 100% clear that Triple H's character is full of shit?
ReplyDelete"Everything HHH said here was leading towards an actual match, and
ReplyDeleteputting over winning the match as the most important thing. He wasn't
like "John Cena never drew as much money as me" or "he's not a wrestling
star", it was all about how John Cena wouldn't be good enough to beat
him in a match. The MATCH was super important, and Cena winning that
match would make him a bigger deal and prove HHH wrong."
Well, he was also an active wrestler getting ready to main event WM for the belt then too. Now he's a semi-retired guy playing the COO of the company.
"Again, back to the stupidity of the Jericho/Edge comment, saying they
aren't "big stars" blows off the importance of titles and wins/losses.
In terms of what we see on TV, those guys absolutely are huge stars
who've won tons of title and main events."
Which is why everyone totally thinks they're on the same level as Austin and Rocky. Wait, what?
If Bryan wants to prove that HHH is full of shit, he does that by beating Orton, not based off of crowd reaction. And again, HHH is running him down and he has not responded to it. Hitting Orton is not responding to HHH. Crowd response isnt either. Cena gets booed like crazy and he is by far the top face in the company.
ReplyDeleteGet off this fucking obsession with "They're not Rock/Austin/WHOEVER.
ReplyDeleteNONE OF THOSE GUYS ARE AROUND. NONE OF THEM WRESTLE MORE THAN ONE BIG MATCH A YEAR.
You might be right; I guess we'll know in a few years. They really would benefit from some serious competition.
ReplyDelete"If Bryan wants to prove that HHH is full of shit, he does that by beating Orton, not based off of crowd reaction."
ReplyDeleteHuh? Triple H isn't claiming that Bryan can't beat Orton, he's claiming that Bryan isn't "good for business." Making it explicit that the people who bought tickets for the show are hugely behind him clearly shows that Triple H is full of shit on the point. It's the equivalent of settling it on the court, so to speak.
I didn't realize I had an obsession with them. I was just pointing out that the idea that it devalued the titles they'd won is silly, because it's not like anyone thinks of Edge or Jericho as being in that tippy-top tier of HoF guys to begin with just because he won a bunch of titles.
ReplyDeleteI know I'm double-posting this, but I honestly think it needs repeating.
ReplyDeleteTo anyone brushing off the HHH comment with "Yeah, none of those guys were Rock or Austin..."... GET OFF THIS FUCKING OBSESSION WITH THOSE GUYS, AND COMPARING TODAY'S TALENT TO THEM.
All you do is damage the current and future star, to keep an out-of-date ego content.
If Vince had told Bret/Shawn "You'll NEVER be as good as Bruno or Hulk.", why would anyone want to watch them? That's like telling the current 49ers "You'll never be as good as Montana and Rice." WHO GIVES A DAMN? Let the current guys get over on their own merits, and unless those older names are willing to help, don't bring them up.
(Shit, I don't like going off like this. But it needs to be said by someone.)
Again, I'm not saying this to rag on HBK because the dude was awesome in the ring and DX Shawn is one of the great wrestling characters of all-time.
ReplyDeleteBut Shawn in 95/96 as the face of the company just wasn't compelling enough to draw fans. I mean, skip ahead to Wrestlemania 15: was the WWF roster light years better at that point? Not really. Coming out of Mania there was no HBK, no Bret, no Bulldog, Vader meant nothing, Mankind was still midcard, Taker was what he'd been for years, and Rock still wasn't THE ROCK yet. Yet business was huge because Austin was a fucking draw. Austin was a star, whereas Shawn Michaels just wasn't.
Babyface male-stripper HBK was an act that fans ended up rejecting.
All I'm saying is that if Edge or Chris Jericho aren't considered "face of teh company" guys, then you sure as hell can't call Shawn Michaels one. Especially in comparison to Edge, who I'd argue carried WWE business way more successfully than HBK ever did, except for maybe Shawn's DX run for that 6 months in 97/98.
It's (not) just you. It's this idea that "Rock/Austin/etc... are all that matters. Fuck everyone else, and fuck these new guys for not being worthy enough."
ReplyDeleteAlso, going by that logic, HHH is painting himself into a rather unflattering corner, along with his friends. As others have pointed out.
Diesel to me is an inarguable flop. They pushed him as the new Hulk Hogan for a full year and nobody bought into it. Business was bad BECAUSE fans didn't buy Diesel as the ace, not in spite of how much they loved Diesel.
ReplyDeleteWell, fair enough, but that really has nothing to do with the context of my response there. I was just pointing out that no one really cares about the number of title reigns in the first place, and really hasn't since at least the Attitude era.
ReplyDeleteAnd I wasn't talking about the new guys either, I was talking about Jericho and Edge.
Thank you Mr. Kbjone for saying the things that needed to be say-yud!
ReplyDeleteSelf-fulfilling prophecy:
ReplyDelete"This guy isn't good enough (IN OUR OPINION), so we won't push him like we did others."
Guy doesn't do well as champ. (Jericho being the FOURTH most-important member of the WM 18 build, despite being champ, Edge getting tossed aside for HHH/Cena)
Fans see guy as "Not as good as the legends".
He called him a B+ talent.
ReplyDeleteAustin is the biggest star in history so that's kind of like saying backlund sucked because hogan came along. Also in 1995/1996 the WWF was still primarily a touring house show company. The business lived and died off individual draws. Shawn kept the company alive. Any tickets they sold was to see the show stopper. Now when edge had his spectacular (and historically underrated) run as top heel the wwe brand was a-much bigger draw and really the wwe was the self sustaining entity it is now. So even though edge was awesome smackdown wouldn't have been off the air without him. If Shawn jumps to wcw in the spring of 95 or got killed by those marines the WWF might have gone out of business in that window of time. Also wcw put a much better product.
ReplyDeleteEither way you can guess my opinion on that promo. In fact I was watching on DVR and when I read about the promo in the live thread I decided to skip the end of the show. I've seen the same hhh bury everyone, but for real, 2000 times. Great post, and you should be proud to know its-bbeen copyed and pasted and posted on npp by dougie to be "lampooned" by the three or 4 people that post there.
"Well, he was also an active wrestler getting ready to main event WM for
ReplyDeletethe belt then too. Now he's a semi-retired guy playing the COO of the
company." So because he's not an active wrestler, it's ok that he devalues wrestling matches? That's asinine dude. The fact that HHH isn't wrestling in this match doesn't justify that he should blow off the importance of wrestling matches that other people are involved in. In that case he needs to either A) Stay the fuck out of the way, which is fine because his presence doesn't bump ratings or buyrates anyway. or B) He should use that time to make the match seem important. Ya know, maybe that contract segment could have been about HHH actually giving a shit if Orton could beat Bryan, instead of completely no-selling the match.
Well, he was also an active wrestler getting ready to main event WM for the belt then too. Now he's a semi-retired guy playing the COO of the company." Again, this is ridiculous. If HHH is going to play COO on TV then he needs to make what others are doing seem important. The matches should seem important. Instead he (and by "he" I mean his character on TV which he gets to script himself) makes the match seem pointless because he's no longer in it. How in the fuck is that good wrestling booking?
"Which is why everyone totally thinks they're on the same level as Austin and Rocky. Wait, what?"
Honestly, what does that even mean?
Another DVD release should do the trick.
ReplyDelete"Triple H: The Biggest Star Ever in History"
"As far as I can see no one but Triple H/Stephanie are blowing it off,
ReplyDeletebut they're playing the role of the people who own the company, so why
would they care more about match outcomes than business at this point?"
Because match outcomes are what they're selling us. That's the product we're watching. HHH/Stephanie are presented as the most important things on the show, and the main villains. If they don't care about match outcomes, then what the fuck am I watching? Again, they're presenting things in a way now where the stakes of winning or losing a match isn't the most important thing. And that's a huge difference between this and the Austin/Vince feud, and between this and any decent feud in wrestling history.
ME: "I ask you, that entire contract signing, did ANYONE focus on winning the actual match?"
YOU: Uh, yeah. Basically everyone BUT Triple H.
And I ask, who is presented as the most important person in that ring? Triple H. He gets the longest mic time, he gets the last word, and he's only challenged by another retired wrestler. The guys in teh actual match, Bryan and Orton, are presented as being WAYYY less than. Again, this is horrible fucking booking. I'm supposed to be paying to watch Orton vs Bryan, yet both guys are treated like little kids. How is this justifiable? It's bad booking, bad storytelling, and it's another example of WWE refusing to put over anyone besides their little circle jerk.
As for your last point, I'll just say that I think they as a company have gone way overboard in harping on Bryan's "negatives". It goes from a point of building sympathy to just becoming an albatross, and they may be near that point. Sure HHH is the "heel", but if the face is never allowed to refute those insults, and never goes over in the end, then it absolutely will change the crowd's opinion on him. Plus, let's be honest: when WWE is actually behind someone as their main face, have they ever pushed them by constantly pointing out their flaws?
So...would you say that DBry has more or less charisma than Bret Hart?
ReplyDeleteheh.
In defense of Shawn, who was a miserable SOB back then, Hall and Nash were gone. Bret was throwing tantrums and coming and going and Austin wasn't a star yet. He could only do so much on his own. His matches with Foley and Vader were incredible too.
ReplyDeleteSeems the point went ENTIRELY over your head. When exactly was the star power of the Rock and Undertaker at issue here?
ReplyDeleteThe story about the old guy was true. He was trying to needle me about the Yankees' record this season. I didn't take the bait, again, because even with the injuries actually DID make them a scrappy underdog who managed to compete all season.
ReplyDeleteAlmost every analyst in April put the Yankees in fourth or fifth place to finish the season, with no hope of a playoff spot. That's not an underdog? Yes, they have a high payroll, but a good chunk of that money was off the field this season because of injuries.
I certainly don't.
ReplyDelete"I go back and forth on this. HHHs run coincided with Austin and Rock leaving, so you could argue that a drop in business was inevitable."
ReplyDeleteThis is exactly how I see it. When the two biggest stars in the company leave and the (distant) third biggest star is left, a drop in business.
And here's the thing: it can be used as a criticism for HHH when you're comparing him to those two (Austin and Rocky), but not when you're comparing him to guys like Edge, Jericho and RVD, all of whom are lesser stars.
Listen, I'm not trying to be a dick or anything, and I'm sure that old man story was true... but again, I'm just saying it comes off as super ridiculous to even hear a Yankee fan pull the "I stuck with my team through thick and thin!" card. Being a Yankees fan is the easiest, most satisfying sports fandom in the world. And I'm not begrudging that— hell, I wish I was a Yankees fan and got to experience how awesome that must be. But at the same time, sorry man, I've heard Yankee fans all year telling versions of the "I stuck with my team!" stories and it just sounds silly.
ReplyDeleteAnd no, the Yankees are not an underdog, injuries or not. They start every season with a giant advantage over everyone else. They still played most of the year with a roster whose payroll would have dwarfed most of the league.
That's true, but in addition to lionizing him as the GOAT, WWE acts like HBK was a huge star and an icon when he isn't even the biggest star to come out of the Clique (that would be Trips, though HBK is the bigger legend, meaning he's more respected and his work is more acclaimed). It's historical revisionism, but it's something the WWE's been saying for a long time, so there's no point in anyone pointing it out now, especially since Shawn's a babyface (so far).
ReplyDeleteAlong these same lines, it used to irk me all the time when Jim Ross would say company related media appearances that today's stars don't measure up to the stars of the Attitude Era. He'd point out how they don't want to hone their craft and would rather play video games. I especially remember him saying this in one of those sit down talks with CM Punk and Steve Austin. It bothered me because, honestly, can you blame today's talent for feeling that way? Mankind accidentally became a star and is now a bonafide legend. Compare that to Zack Ryder. And while CM Punk became a legitimate main event star, he hardly got the Steve Austin treatment. And then there are guys like Dolph Ziggler and Shelton Benjamin and Kofi Kingston and (until recently) Cody Rhodes and loads of others who catch on with the fans, deliver big time, and just get abused through their on-camera treatment. Can you blame them for not being super motivated?
ReplyDeleteYeah, honestly I'm just playing devil's advocate in regard to HBK as a "real star." He definitely had a lot working against him in that run— my main point was just playing off the comments from Monday, by those standards HBK is a failure as well.
ReplyDeleteAnd what in the hell is NPP???
No Pants Provided. Another wrestling forum, with a few members that obsess over whatever's said on here.
ReplyDeleteTheir most famous member is Dougie, so it's not really worth more than one or two snarky jokes in their direction.
You've heard Yankees fans telling those stories all season because they have people 1) assuming they're just fair-weather fans and will throw on a Rays hat when Tampa starts winning or 2) most people needling them because of the projections of coming in last.
ReplyDeleteYou think it's silly. That's fine, and honestly, I see your point. But all I was doing was pointing out that the Yankees suffered a freakish amount of injuries this year, taking out for extended periods of time the starting 1B, 3B, C, SS LF and CF. That's fairly extensive and does a pretty good job of neutralizing that payroll.
So what's this I hear about Triple H being a prick? Did the sun rise today?
ReplyDeleteI know I might get flamed for this, but is HHH even bigger than Edge and Jericho? Didn't Edge carry most of 2006 and Jericho most of 2008 just as well as HHH did his share (his "share" < Rock's share that year) in 2000?
ReplyDeleteAnd in terms of legacy, who gets the cream-their-pants-screams from the crowd at the Rumble this past year? Jericho. Who gets the standing ovations every time he comes back? Edge. Who gets a "you tapped out" chant or mild clapping when he's contemplating retirement? HHH. Fans remember guys like Edge, Jericho, and RVD much more fondly than they do HHH (I will concede that HHH had gained a lot more of the younger fans over the last several years).
RVD, Jericho, and Edge have huge cult-like followings. They have had successes and contentment outside of wrestling. All three of them are vastly underrated because the company was hesitant to make them THE man even though they were hottest and most profitable act in the company for sustained periods of time. Maybe HHH's a little jealous or contracted Vince-itis: Anger over anyone not needing wrestling and a constant need for himself to be bigger than "rasslin"
nopantsprovided,its a website a few trolls from here have to obesses over what's said at this blog. Its very sad and pathetic in a serial killer type way but I can't help but check it out every few days. If you want to feel bad about how pathetic people can be check it out. You've got to sign up for the site though. Go to the entertainment section and its the things smarks say thread. I believe its up to 215 pages!
ReplyDeletehttp://www.memegeneokerlund.com/media/created/g4kgw9.jpg
ReplyDeleteThis totally reminds of the time The Million Dollar Man called Randy Savage a common man, so Savage beat Virgil in a cage match.
ReplyDeleteOh jeeeez, I'll take your word for it man. I assume it looks like an abandoned Myspace page with lots of glittery animated gifs and such.
ReplyDeleteRandy Orton as Virgil: Harsh. Hilarious, but harsh.
ReplyDeleteI liked Valentine's timeline a lot
ReplyDeleteYou will enjoy Steele's. His is great
"A touch indelicate, but fair."
ReplyDeleteHonestly though, it wasn't particularly complicated. Usos are Number One contenders and should have the first crack at the titles. But the Shield have a rematch clause so THEY have an honest argument at getting the next shot. Make them fight it out to see who faces the champions at Hell in a Cell. Wasn't too convoluted.
ReplyDelete"So because he's not an active wrestler, it's ok that he devalues wrestling matches? That's asinine dude."
ReplyDeleteWhy should The Authority care who wins a title match?
"Again, this is ridiculous. If HHH is going to play COO on TV then he needs to make what others are doing seem important."
Well, Bryan is feuding with Triple H, so he SHOULD indeed make that seem important.
"Why should The Authority care who wins a title match?"
ReplyDeleteBecause the WWE Champion should be a "face of the company", therefore a reflection on THAT AUTHORITY, no matter who it is? Just because Cena's not involved, doesn't mean someone else can't claim some of the spotlight.
HHH wanting Randy as champ: fine. That's perfectly heelish, and understandable. Especially if those two have buried the hatchet, so to speak. His little line about the "coal becoming diamond" was a GREAT one, storyline wise.
But he's not playing that card as heavily, if at all anymore, as the "Bryan sucks, he's not good enough, look at me, the King of Kings, the Slayer of Legends, the Decider of Greatness, blah blah blah these guys I beat suck blah blah blah." card.
That's because no one really cares about Bryan vs. Orton (in part because they screwed up Orton's character for this feud), and want to see Bryan vs. Triple H at this point.
ReplyDelete"in part because they screwed up {Orton's character for} this feud"
ReplyDeleteDrop the { }, and there's my opinion.
I think HHH is a bigger star then both of them. He might not be better as an act, but in terms of legacy, I think hes a bigger star. While he was never Rock, or Austin, he was in a ton of money drawing feuds (Austin, Rock, Foley, Taker, Cena, Orton etc), had an incredible string of matches (Foley, Angle, Austin, etc), and was in the center of some good angles. While we can question if his push was deserved, and can agree he had opportunities others didnt, his legacy is only behind Austin, Rock, UT, Hogan, and Cena in WWE lore, IMO
ReplyDeleteMy favorite was Triple H coining the "business is cyclical" excuse as to why business was dropping when he was on top, and Austin called him on his bullshit.
ReplyDeleteNothing Triple H can say will ever top Bryan losing in 18 seconds in a World Title match on the biggest show of the year.
ReplyDeleteAnd Bryan still became one of their biggest stars, while Triple H's workout buddy got shit on for it.
Greatest villain in the history of cinema, IMO.
ReplyDeleteHis legacy is waaay behind hbk, not to mention Savage and Andre. I'd also absolutely put Bret and maybe even ultimate warrior above him but those two are up for debate
ReplyDeleteI go back and forth on him vs HHH. HBK had more drawing power at times, but HHHs longevity on top is hard to wash away. Its kinda like the Barry Sanders vs Emmit debate. Id put HHH above Macho
ReplyDeleteHBK is the bigger legend. HHH is the bigger star/draw. However, in WWE lore HBK is treated as being the bigger star.
ReplyDeleteOut of interest, what makes you say HBK "had more drawing power at times"? There's nothing to suggest that HBK has ever been as big of a draw as Hunter, let alone bigger. I suppose you could argue that WrestleMania 23 with Cena/HBK drew better than WrestleMania 22 with Cena/HHH, but according to Meltzer, Trump was 'Mania 23's main attraction, and that card had Batista/'Taker as well.
"I know I might get flamed for this, but is HHH even bigger than Edge and Jericho?"
ReplyDeleteYes, and that's not debatable. What is debatable however is whether or not Edge and Jericho could've been as big (or bigger) than Hunter with the same type of push.
"All three of them are vastly underrated because the company was hesitant to make them THE man even though they were hottest and most profitable act in the company for sustained periods of time."
Neither Jericho or Edge was ever "the most profitable act in the company for sustained periods of time". Edge has a couple of really good RAW ratings in '06 to his name. Jericho has just about nothing. Edge was probably the hottest wrestler on the roster briefly in early '06, but neither of them has at any point been the roster's biggest star or most profitable act, for any length of time. Neither of them were really ever bigger stars than Cena, Batista, HHH and 'Taker.
I completely agree with your first paragraph.
ReplyDeleteMaybe "drawing power" wasnt the best term. It felt that during HBKs time top he was just treated as a bigger deal, perhaps since there just werent as many stars on the roster at the time. I know people like to cite business being down during HBKs run on the top, but I think the product as a whole was just down and its unfair to really put it all on Michaels shoulders.
"It felt that during HBKs time top he was just treated as a bigger deal"
ReplyDeleteI agree with this. Like I said, WWE generally treats HBK as being a bigger star than HHH, despite Trips being the bigger draw (and I'd imagine closer to household name status as a result). HHH is the biggest star to come out of the Clique, but Michaels is the one marketed as the "icon".
"I know people like to cite business being down during HBKs run on the top, but I think the product as a whole was just down and its unfair to really put it all on Michaels shoulders."
I also agree that it's unfair to solely blame Michaels, but at the end of the day, there's no real reasoning to consider HBK a bigger star/draw than HHH.
Bryan would lose.
ReplyDeleteTriple H is way better on the mic than Bryan. Bryan can cut "I love wrestling and I need to win and kick your ass" promos, but he can't cut "you suck so much" promos.
Bryan's default insult is calling somebody not a real man or a fag. That's not what you want to throw against Hunter.
It absolutely has to end with HHH taking a knee to the schnoz and tapping clean to the YesLock. And then losing another match or two, ala the Batista-HHH stuff in '05. That's the only way this bullshit pays off.
ReplyDeleteYou're right. HBK did not draw as top guy in the WWF, as great a performer as he was
ReplyDeleteYes! And the "hone their craft" thing was bullshit too. Austin honed his craft in WCW, so what point is he making about WWF?
ReplyDeleteExactly. People like to forget that HBK did not draw as champ, even when fed monsters like Diesel, Vader, and Sid. He is FAR below Austin/Hogan/Rock in terms of drawing power, even if he is one of the greatest ever in the ring
ReplyDeleteYou're totally right about the roster. It was still not very strong in '98. Austin really only fought Foley, Taker, and Kane (under the backdrop of Austin-McMahon) that year, but business was booming. Michaels beat Bret Hart and Diesel (spring), Vader (summer), and Sid (fall), not to mention the smaller feuds with Mankind, Bulldog, and Owen. His matches were great, but Shawn didn't really draw with any of those guys.
ReplyDeleteHis goal has always seemed to be "greatness by association". He is brilliant in that he has made sure his name is attached to everything over the years and that he is in the same breath as all the meaningful angles/titles/legends. DX, DX reunions, nWo, Flair, his own version of the Horsemen, his own World title, Flair's retirement night, all things HBK, the Undertaker's streak x3, CM Punk, Daniel Bryan, Goldberg in WWE, and the list goes on
ReplyDeleteIt kind of speaks to his lack of drawing power though, doesn't it? He inherited the top spot when business was at its peak, but things dipped noticeably after Rock/Austin were out. To me that's the most direct example of how HHH is not on their level.
ReplyDeleteI still want to know if HHH-Y2J at SummerSlam 2000 could have sealed the deal on making Jericho a star.
ReplyDeleteExactly. That's the difference too. Whereas before, they saw a guy like Warrior who they wanted to be The Guy, they put him over the current Guy (Hogan) strong and ran with him on top.... now they have the rising star work with the top guys, only to stay in that role just under the Real Stars.
ReplyDeleteOr maybe both guys are champs on RAW and they team up for Survivor Series vs. Orton & HHH?
ReplyDelete