What do you think of Daniel Bryan's dive through the middle rope to the outside? Seems like this is a high risk/low reward move to be doing on a regular basis. Every time he does it he runs the risk of a lot going wrong – his foot could get caught on the rope, he can easily injure a knee/head/shoulder on the landing, the opponent could easily get hurt. The visual impact of the move is okay, but seems like this should save for big matches. Sort of reminds me of a less suicidal "Nestea plunge" that Foley used to do regularly. Sure it gets a pop but is it worth the downside risk?
I dunno. Benoit used to do the same kind of stuff, although he did it with way more impact and much less concern for his neck than Bryan does. Benoit used to hurl himself out of the ring and go head first into the railing on a regular basis and it was getting pretty scary near the end. At least Bryan has been healthy so far and not off having his neck fused or whatever.
The mid-90's brought us a more agressive style of in-ring action, mainly with the popularity of ECW, and every other company attempting to capture some of that in order to keep the vastly diminishing attention span. The marathon 60 - 90 minute matches of the 80's would not appeal to a new fanbase that tuned in for the aggressive, hardcore style. Before that, the focus was on psychology and actual mat wrestling. Now, with WWE trying to protect their investments, and advertising/marketing partnerships, and just wanting to avoid bad press, they have brought the style back to the mat somewhat, teaching the prospects to wrestle safer, but mixing in some of the aggression in spots. I feel the style now is going to be the style to stay. It's not a bad thing, but it makes for similarly wrestled matches, and the timing appears to be the same (comeback spots, the "go to commercial" spots). It makes for a watchable, but predictable match.
ReplyDelete"Benoit used to do the same kind of stuff..." I feel like even with the following paragraph of disclaimers about how much smarter DBry is about it, that's still a sign he may need to back it off a little more. Even being very conservative and discounting Benoit's last days as a terrible combination of drugs, marital strife, personal stress and CTE, the fact remains that he showed a huge amount of neurodegeneration. How do we know that even with the safer style DBry isn't setting himself up for 50% as much brain damage as Benoit?
ReplyDeleteI'm going to go ahead and assume that someone like Daniel Bryan is a consummate professional and knows exactly how to perform moves without injuring himself or others, as a wrestler is wont to do.
ReplyDeleteWell said. There are some spots I miss, specifically the powerbomb and tombstone, but if this newer style keeps guys safe, Im cool with it.
ReplyDeleteEither way, if you put two guys in there who can go, they will still deliver the goods regardless of what the E allows or prohibits. Summerslam is a good examplr.
I don't like that move either, and I seem to recall bitching about how just about everyone in ROH does it in one of my reviews. To me, it's just not visually impressive enough to justify the risk.
ReplyDeleteI never really saw the appeal of through the rope vs. over the rope dives, honestly. I always kinda felt like the diving headbutt he uses could just be a diving knee or legdrop and get the same result.
ReplyDeleteThat said, with the suicide dive, the other side I suppose is that Samoa Joe has that move down to the extent that he can pull that move off every night, so why a guy 80 pounds lighter couldn't manage it... it's a difficult line, and I'm glad I'm not walking up to it.
Eliminating stuff like power bombs and piledrivers also gives it more gravitas when guys who are capable of doing it safely pull it out once every blue moon. See: Punk/Cena on Raw.
ReplyDeleteI was thinking the same thing. Saying "Benoit used to do it" doesn't instill confidence that what you're doing is a good idea.
ReplyDeleteYup and yup.
ReplyDeletePowerbombs got really trite after a while. It got to the point where most of my least favorite wrestlers did powerbombs and choke slams in every match.
ReplyDeleteThat's the magic, you make it a weak piece of metal or maybe not a piece of metal at all. Thus giving the illusion of a steel chair.
ReplyDeleteUnless you're using a nerf bat or a pillow, there's really no safe way to realistically hit someone in the head with an object.
ReplyDeleteSo all the stunts in movies real? God damn!
ReplyDeleteI agree totally. But at least Joe protects his fucking head when he does it.
ReplyDeleteWWE rings ARE way softer and safer than most rings. Or at least according to everything I've heard.
ReplyDeleteMost punches in movies/theater are no contact.
ReplyDeleteAnd stuntmen wear...armor basically. Can't get much padding in a pair of trunks.
If you have footage of a guy getting full on hit in the head in a movie, I'd love to see it.
P.S. Stuntmen die EVERY year.
No it's still like falling on a floor.
ReplyDeleteThe short side of the ring suicide dives that Punk and Bryan do *seem* really dangerous. Of course that could be the magic trick
ReplyDeleteBryan does far too many things like Benoit for my comfort.
ReplyDeleteAs someone fully trained in stunt work, this is wrong: Stuntmen frequently take physical damage from the falls and hits that they take: My teacher called them "kisses and bruises"- And typically, there is no "armor": Knee and elbow pads under clothes are the most you'll usually see.
ReplyDeleteTHAT SAID: A typical stuntman works FAR less days and have plenty of rest between gigs.
If you watch it closely. you'll notice that Daniel Bryan pretty much always leads with his hands and palms. Upon Impact he basically just super diving pushes his opponent(s).
ReplyDeleteUsing this technique has not only the ability to allow DB to use the counter-momentum to reduce his velocity, going in hands up gives him the added advantage of pushing his opponents very hard into the barricade.
It's probably pretty safe to him. But I wouldn't do it every night personally.
My mistake. I know very little about stuntwork.
ReplyDeleteAnyway...stuntmen a) Die/get crippled, and B) Work way less than wrestlers.
You've worked in a WWE ring, have you?
ReplyDeleteHonestly...I think ADR's suicide dive is way better than Punk and Bryan's. Though maybe it's just because he's got like 40-50 pounds on them.
ReplyDeleteI just think it's crazy to do them on the hard camera/opposite hard camera side because there's so little room. On the ramp side the move taker can catch and fall back without worrying about anything going wonky. Punk's especially makes me nervous because he kinda just heaves himself into it.
ReplyDeleteWhere the hell are you getting "Die/Get Crippled" from? Certainly, it does happen (like in any high-risk profession), but it's not an epidemic by any means: it certainly doesn't touch wrestling's death list.
ReplyDeleteThis list, while probably not exhaustive, does a good job of demonstrating how rare a serious injury is on a film set: Bear in mind that thousands of movies are shot every year!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_film_accidents#2010s
That's a list of accidents, not total deaths of stunt people...I wonder how many stuntmen get addicted to pain meds and OD or commit suicide?
ReplyDeleteAnd I would say that considering that there's thousands of matches wrestled a year, and look how many people have died from in-the-ring stuff (Misawa, Owen and some Joshi) comparing that to even the (very) small numbers of deaths of professional stuntpeople...I'd say it's comparable.
Maybe...the other wrestler and the wall give you enough support to brace off of.
ReplyDeleteThis is really an eye-opener. Does Daniel Bryan have any idea what kind of risks he's taking? We're clearly in the best position to make judgements regarding the manner in which Bryan does his job as we're the ones who are watching him do it night after night. I bet if Bryan actually sat down and watched one of his matches he would nearly have a heart attack, realizing how often disregards his own safety. I think it's pretty clear what we need to do: intervention. Let's all get together and confront Bryan and make him realize the danger he's in if he doesn't start making wiser choices. Like we could tell him we're showing him a "Chris Benoit" match and then when it's over we would be like, "Guess what Bryan, that wasn't Chris Benoit. That was you. That was one of your matches. Look at what you're putting yourself through. Think about what you might one day put Brie through. Is it worth it?" Guys, we have a chance to save some lives. Seriously. Let's do this.
ReplyDeleteThere's an inherent risk in merely setting foot in the ring.
ReplyDeleteIf we were to compare it to football, of course as the game evolves you have to remove certain elements and add new rules, but there's always the chance that a simple everyday tackle could leave somebody with paralysis or permanent brain damage.
Now, on that basis alone you could argue that football should never be played, but it will never go away. There's danger everywhere and in everything.
...not your best bit dude.
ReplyDeleteWe'll know we've let it get too far out of hand once he gets Canadian citizenship.
ReplyDeleteI'm sure that for the past six years WWE have had physicians regularly check up on these guys, especially in areas regarding the spine, head and brain.
ReplyDeleteCome to think of it, I don't think you'd get a push if you weren't in tip-top shape. Doing otherwise is just asking for trouble at this point.
There's danger everywhere, but you can still do things to limit your exposure to that danger.
ReplyDeleteThe diving headbutt is a dumb spot that crippled Harley Race and killed Daniel, Nancy and Chris Benoit.
Bryan has suffered concussions. He has said that he has forgotten entire matches because of trauma to his head.
ReplyDeleteI am not a neurologist, but I think that qualifies as brain damage.
And while I hope that WWE would tell people to stop doing stupid shit...they have not had the best track record with that.
It's certainly a riskier move, but that could be said for a plethora of others. We've all seen guys suffer major injuries from far less.
ReplyDeleteAgain, it comes down to the level of finesse that these guys have and not the moves themselves. Some guys can hand out piledrivers without hurting anybody, whereas some guys shouldn't be throwing lariats.
For instance, too, I disagree with some arguments against the use of blading when it comes to health, because there are thousands of guys who did it thousands of times and suffered no repercussions. Ric Flair is just fine because he's a pro, and they took common sense precautions to prevent disease.
Lastly, it wasn't the diving headbutt specifically that can be attributed to Chris Benoit's deteriorated body and brain, but just about everything he did. The guy took 'bleeding for your art' far too seriously.
I Googled around for information regarding Bryan's brain damage and I really couldn't find anything conclusive.
ReplyDeleteRegardless, in today's climate regarding concussions and brain damage, they're not letting anybody go out there in an unsafe condition. Prior to 2007 maybe, but not now.
Daniel Bryan is the closest in ring performer to Benoit and that is why I love watching him. He brings the best out of everyone, and the fan in me. He is awsome and safe, that's why he makes the big bucks. Carry on DB, carry on.
ReplyDeleteThat list includes deaths... I'm sorry, where are you getting the idea that stunt men are constantly dying or are addicted to pain meds? If that was a problem in the industry (where safety is of the utmost importance!) then it would be dealt with: After all, these are unionised performers working on productions with extensive insurance and ample time off. Those are the factors that I think keep the death rate to a reasonable-for-high-risk-profession levels.
ReplyDeleteYou do realize the difference between something that is shot in a studio, uses body doubles, and can setup any camera angle they want to hide the fact that nobody is being touched vs. something that happens live in an arena, right?
ReplyDeleteExactly. He is a professional, let him do his thing. He knows what he is doing ALOT more than we do
ReplyDeleteFearing for the small-boobed Bella's life?
ReplyDeleteEven without the potential injury risks, that move needs to go just because it's fucking retarded
ReplyDeleteHas anybody who used the Diving Headbutt come to a good end?
ReplyDeleteAnd I'd hardly say what happened to Flair as repercussion free. And I don't think Flair is a great example for the artistry of blading either, what the fuck did Flair's blood mean anyway? That's just the average tuesday night, y'know?
I think the dangerous moves should be banned from TV matches, and broken out for PPVs with making sure that all parties involved are competent and professional enough to handle it.
He talks about not having memory of certain matches in his Art of Wrestling interview. That is brain damage, minor perhaps, but brain damage nonetheless.
ReplyDeleteI really hope you're correct. I just know that if people had the opportunity to do irrevocable damage to themselves for the slim chance of getting more over, they would. Which is why things need to be tightly controlled and regulated.
Deaths total or deaths on film studios? If the day to day abuse of doing flips hurt somebody bad enough that they couldn't work again, that wouldn't really count as an accident, would it.
ReplyDeleteAnd my main point is that even stunt people, with all the safety equipment and precautions and unions still die. I think wrestling could take a lot of advice from that, but they're not really comparable fields as previously mentioned.
Hollywood has editing and effects budgets and you're performing live. And they STILL die.
Well, only tough-as-nails crazy guys use the diving headbutt, and they did other crazy things so... Personally, any time I see moonsaults, SSPs and second-rope moonsaults/Lionsaults part of me is praying that nothing goes awry.
ReplyDeleteTo be fair to Flair (trademark Bobby Heenan), in his day you had to put on a spectacle every night just for the hope of being somebody. Besides, if you're going the full 60 and you're Ric Flair, it's a goddamned epic.
I don't disagree with your last sentence, though. It makes the PPVs that much more worth it.
I don't know what compels certain wrestlers to do the crazy shit, but it isn't always about getting over. Brock Lesnar fucked up the SSP at WM19 BIG TIME, and all he had to do was use the opposite turnbuckle; he was in the main event, and he was the biggest guy on the roster.
ReplyDeleteI wonder if, at times, someone like Vince would even be privy to what the two wrestlers in a given match have agreed to do in the ring, because even at that WrestleMania, you just know that Angle and Brock would have gone against certain rulings if there were any.
Moonsault's from the top rope are something that don't cause anymore damage than a splash. I know that springboard moonsaults can fuck you up (Ask Hayabusa).
ReplyDeleteI dunno, the 90s were a great time for wrestling, but they did a LOT of damage to the product.
You're right, wrestlers being FUCKING CRAZY is something else they need to keep in mind and cut down upon.
ReplyDeleteMost of the guys who WWE cuts down upon are much better than the unrestrained versions of them. RVD and Angle are much better with limits and restriction than them doing whatever the fuck they want.