My point was HHH can still be an effective heel authority figure, and have good feuds, without getting involved with Bryan and Orton right now. He stayed out of the way Monday which is a good start.
It's not really a start since this isn't the first time the two characters have been distanced. They've been gradually moving HHH and Bryan away from each other since the stuff with Show and Cody began.
It's not a major thing at all. Wrestling angles in vacuum where prior events much more egregious than this are completely ignored. HHH can move past the fact that Orton kicked his wife in the head. Cena can team up with the guy who tried to kill his 'best friend'. And really, you could write a small book just trying to dissect all the inconsistencies and dropped storylines that make up Kane's back-story. Undertaker was literally portrayed as a zombie, and then all of a sudden had a wife and rode a Harley. Randy Savage hung out with the nWo despite Hogan painting a yellow stripe down his back. Sting went Red & Black because umm...I still have no idea why Sting joined the nWo. Sgt. Slaughter renounced his love of the U.S. and swore loyalty to Saddam Hussein. Why? Just because. Mankind went from being some freak whose hand was messed up due to a piano accident to revealing himself as longtime journeyman wrester Mick Foley...Why? Because the storyline called for it and it worked.
So Big Show went from having an ironclad contract to not having one...why? Because the storyline calls for it.
TL:DR. Pro wresting storylines often pay no attention to anything that happened more than a few months in the past. Big Show's contract is piddling shit compared to everything else that has happened in wrestling history.
Actually he was just 'fired' as head of NXT and replaced with JBL (kayfabe. I think he's still booking/training in real life). So according to kayfabe logic, I don't think he has an official position.
The Wyatt's have done nothing but squash midcarders and jobbers over the past few weeks. I kind of like their gimmick, but if I had to cut 90 minutes out of RAW I would cut them until they actually advanced a storyline or did something new.
I've never viewed the Mega Powers as a tag team. They never competed in the division even briefly, never won the titles, did they even challenge for them? Did they even wrestle more than 2 matches as a team? They were allies. Not a tag team.
They're not that bad yet, but they've been shedding audience for the last few weeks, which would have to concern them a bit. It's not like they dropped to this number after football started and are around it every week.
The camera spins around to the front, and reveals the checkpoint is manned by Vince himself, wearing a shit-eating grin and going "PAPERS, PLEASE. GLORY TO ARSTOTZKA."
They only debuted, like, two months ago, and it's already hard to believe just how over they were in the beginning.
Sure, some of it is due to how limited Harper and Rowan are, but the bigger issue is that they were brought up as this crazy cult, but they haven't done any crazy cult-like things.
In THEORY, beating both guys cleanly should have basically put him on another level (in terms of kayfabe "standings/rankings"), but there was absolutely NO follow-up.
The guy beat Cena clean as a sheet!!! Why haven't the announcers driven that point into the ground???
The paying fans fault for buying the ticket, or the companys fault for not putting people in position to succeed. So you would rather fuck the paying fan and take the chance to kill the town completely?
That's smart.
Re: Bryan.
Perception is reality and Bryan, while winning the matches... doesn't have the gold to prove it. Luger went the same route.
WWE fucks the paying fan all the time, by offering multiple overpriced PPVs where sometimes NOTHING of note happens, like this past year's Wrestlemania. What's a couple of rinky dink towns they don't bother taping shows at?
RE: Bryan
Luger won by count out, and by being eliminated at the same time as a one legged Bret Hart.
Bryan is winning by kneeing faces in, he's just getting screwed over by the man.
No, actually the 10 Man Match was cancelled because the HBK/Razor ladder match went much longer than it was supposed to.
Supposedly, Randy Savage berated them for taking too much time and making the guys in the 10 man miss out on their spot on the card (and more importantly a WM payday).
A family of four buys an overpriced WWE PPV of 50-60 bucks?
Same family goes to a house show...
-The gas that it takes to get there -The amount for parking -The price of admission x4 -The amount of food X4 -the amount of merch x4 -The gas it takes to get back.
If that family doesnt get to see John Cena, they most definitely need to ger thier money back because they are putting way more into it than buy a rinky dink PPV once.
See, you are not looking at the big picture. Typical wrestling thinking just about 52 weeks of TV.
Re: Bryan
If he doesnt have the gold, then he is a loser. Having the title is the endgame. I guess I have to go back to my original statement. Wins and Losses dont matter, cuz if they did... why doesn't Bryan have the gold? If he is so over, why isnt he WWE champ, instead of WWE chump.
again... Big picture.
Im tired of wasting my fingers with you people. Yall dont get it.
Demolition should be #1. At the height of tag-teamdom in the WWF they were the ones with the gold and they held them for 18 months to boot. With all those great teams it still doesn't make sense why they held them for so long.
Bodydonnas should not be on there. From that era the Headbangers and Godwinns were better. Not to mention the super long reigning Owen & Bulldog team (Owen & Jarrett were ok too). Dream team and Adonis/Murdoch also had good runs (better than Strike Force in the Hogan era). For teams that never got the gold, I thought that the Islanders, Power n' Glory and the Rougeaus were pretty great... But the Rockers were ranked pretty high considering they never really held the gold in the same time frame (even Orient Express... Took two to tango with the Rockers afterall).
Bodydonnas should not be on there. From that era the Headbangers and Godwinns were better. Not to mention the super long reigning Owen & Bulldog team (Owen & Jarrett, Owen & Yoko were ok too). Dream team and Adonis/Murdoch also had good runs (better than Strike Force in the Hogan era). For teams that never got the gold, I thought that the Islanders, Power n' Glory and the Rougeaus were pretty great... But the Rockers were ranked pretty high considering they never really held the gold in the same time frame (even Orient Express... Took two to tango with the Rockers afterall).
And the blurb reminds me of one of my favorite running jokes of that era: The APA just having a door set up in the middle of backstage, then insisting people actually knock and enter through it.
Hit baiting like that is the most annoying shit. I can moderately tolerate it when sites like Gawker will break it up into 2 pages...but one page for every item? Fuck dat shit.
I don't get that facing one of the most over faces on the roster in a not-squash is better for somebodies career than being a dude watching divas matches?
They were a team for a couple of months, had one reign and now are considered one of the "best teams ever" with the likes of Demolition, Dudleys, Harts, Bulldogs, etc.
I'm refusing to click through 50 links so I can't give a nuanced opinion but...the Bodydonnas are on there and not Owen/Bulldog? What in the blue hell?!?!
It's not teams that wrestled exclusively in WWF/E - it's based on the WWF/E run of these teams. LOD is high if they're #10. Their WWF runs were not good. It'd be like calling Vader the best super heavyweight ever based only on his WWF time.
Ok, for those of you who don't want to click through all the links, the top 10 is below.
On the first page they clearly stated it's based off their WWWF/WWF/WWE history alone - so teams like the Steiners, Brainbusters, and even the Road Warriors are probably ranked lower than they would be if you took their entire career into account (although Arn/Tully were only a team for about 2 years). And of course teams like the R&R Express and Midnight Express aren't on the list at all.
10. Dudley Boyz 9. Wild Samoans 8. Legion of Doom 7. Valiant Brothers 6. British Bulldogs 5. Hardy Boyz 4. New Age Outlaws 3. Demolition 2. Hart Foundation 1. Edge & Christian
it's a weird list in spots. Owen/Bulldog aren't on the list while the Bodydonnas are. There's one women team - and it's Lay-Cool. The Nasty Boys almost made the top 20 (I hate them so, so, so much). And there's a few short-lived 'superstar' teams - Megapowers, DX (HHH/Shawn), Team Hell-No, etc.
Stupid list. Too Cool and Team (ugh) Hell No were ranked much too high. It's all politics on the particular day the list is compiled, much like that Top 50 Superstars dvd set, which makes these perversely fascinating.
I'm still waiting for the Wyatts to "go after" somebody else. After they took Kane off to wherever (my guess is that they're going to bring him back as a member of the cult), they haven't tried to get any new members of the family. Isn't that what a cult does? The Wyatts should be shown recruiting other wrestlers/divas backstage. They don't even have to be successful; maybe everybody just looks at them like they're crazy. But logically they had to leave the swamp and come to the WWE to do something besides wrestle.
I got roasted on the 411 boards when I first said that screwing Bryan out of the title was a mistake. "Give it a chance!" was the typical response. I argued with HHH in-charge, I am convinced the WWE will never see another breakout star because nobody can rise above him on the card. He screwed Booker T, Van Dam, Jericho, Punk, and now Bryan. The guy is the absolute worst and wish him and Steph would leave, but this will be blamed on Bryan and then Cena will be back for another 5 years of stale BS.
There are two ways of looking at WWE programming because there are two types of wrestling fans:
a) People like us; towards the north end of the target demographic or higher and use the internet somewhat for wrestling-related information
b) Kids; A lot of Cena fans that are easy to please as long as their favourites are on TV and headlining PPVs
Group a) are quite invested in this angle. Even if some are voicing their displeasure over certain things - you know how wrestling fans are, Fuj - they're probably watching more or at least paying attention.
Group b) isn't as interested as usual because Cena is injured and Rey is getting a new leg sewn on, or whatever.
When Cena's on top, generally speaking a) is unhappy and b) is happy.
Here's your mistake, though: there is no such thing as a common fan in North America. Once the Attitude Era ended - and I've seen the numbers - ratings have been mediocre at best (but sufficient to tread water) for the much better part of a decade. The common fan is gone. There's only the two groups.
This is why WWE doesn't give a flying fuck about the quality of their product, ultimately. They only how to make super duper stars out of one or two guys at a time in the hopes that he's the next Hogan, Rock or Austin. That's all they have.
Basically, I think the storyline they have going is the best in at least a couple of years. If you disagree about some aspects, well fine, but as an Austin vs. McMahon-ish type it's got lots of nice little details, it feels REAL, and it's made good use out of The Shield and Orton (H's bitch).
I disagree that it hasn't made good use of those people and here is why.
1. The Shield went from hot heel trio to corporate goons after spinning their wheels. Are they still being showcased in a program? Yes, they are. Are they being booked to the best of their ability? No they are not. You do not book heels 11-3, that makes them babyfaces. And you also do not keep guys with the ability of Rollins and Ambrose in a subserviant role for this long. I'm not in the camp of breaking them up, I am in the camp of turning them loose and having something impactful happen with their characters. They have not had one iota of character tweak since the winter in the three of them. Ambrose is making the best of his screen time with his facials but that is fleeting. The Shield are really becoming a dues ex machina IMO at this point.
2. Bryan is getting fucked. Period. End of story. When the quarters come out and people goto blame the NFL for tanking ratings, HHH will not be apart of that equation. He has already booked himself at a distance from Orton/Bryan. I said months ago that I was fine with the Corporation story, it just took too long to unfold and it never hooked people from flipping to MNF once the season started. Now there are people who are diehards regardless. They are gonna watch football, but for the casuals and fence straddlers, they could have been swayed with a decent story before Sept. All they saw was Bryan get his ass kicked. And the first shit MNF game, they turn back and guess what Bryan doesn't have the belt and still gets beat down? Same shit, different toilet. I don't watch wrestling to see my office life. I watch for escapism. You can't escape when you have smarmy execs who are faux-cool and hip, all the while fucking you over on technicalities because they hold all the cards. That's not wrestling! Plus what 6-8 year old is going to understand terms like "abeyance" and "best for business"
What the fuck is business to a 6 year old?
So you are booking to an older crowd in your main event storyline but cater to kids. Its a mess.
3. Cody Rhodes is a victim of circumstance. Too small, and too short to be of any real use. They needed someone to write off and it just so happened that he was getting married. It helps that he has his family with him and I applaud that, but once HHH abandons the storyline ship, where does this lead people like Cody, the Usos, et al? Right back where they started.
Like I have said in the past. Bryan is only there to make Orton look good in matches and if Bryan does win (i don't think he will) and walk away with the title, very few will be invested by then, because they have killed his heat significantly and when the subsequent buyrate comes in, it will show that "Bryan is not able to draw as a top guy" Nevermind it will be during the dead months of Nov-Dec, hw will get the blame.
Bryan will be crashing back down the card come Jan 14.
I'm sorry to be the negative guy, but there is nothing that is telling me otherwise.
Cena comes back in Jan (after the regular season ends) and will be immediately inserted into the main program. Punk is in his WWEarth-2 storyline with the Heyman guys and that is another main program. Taker comes in... Brock... possibly Rock...
My only retort is that, of course, you or I could have the program laid out in front of us and book all of it much more effectively than they can. Simply put, they're not good at it and they don't try to be. They have the greatest talent in the world at their immediate disposal, and their shows stink. Not only do they have three hour Raws, but even on a good night maybe only an hour's worth was any good.
Scott alluded to this, but I'm a conspiracy theorist when it comes to WWE: they purposely keep their shows mediocre enough to make their PPVs look better in comparison for the sake of PPV carriers and to any company that would carry the WWE Network, but good enough to not have the ratings drop anywhere to TNA's level.
It's all business to them, but they don't consider the PERFECTLY REASONABLE rationale that good shows lead to better ratings which lead to better advertisers, and good shows also lead to more fans which means more merchandise, DVDs and PPVs are bought. Honestly I think they're coasting on the love they're getting from the kiddies and their game plan is to shake shit up once it starts drying up (Cena's heel turn, which is kind of like GnR's Chinese Democracy...) in order to boost themselves back to a point of relevance in the media.
The difference between you and I is that I believe WWE's motive as far as building stars is that they do want guys like Bryan and The Shield to "make it", but it goes against the reasons above. The landscape is so fucking corporate now that I wouldn't be surprised if they wanted so badly to have Bryan beat Cena, but were forced to wait until he was injured or off to shoot a film or whatever. It's almost like WWE has stockholders, and guys like Cena are an extension of the stock, thus jobbing him out is a conflict of interest.
But yeah, I agree with you in that we're stuck with what we got until the machine starts dying.
Big Show's contract isn't even nickel and dime. It's penny dish. The fact that Big Show is now a blubbering baby is a problem, and that makes it a crappy angle. His ' contract status' is irrelevant.
My issue was that they ranked Volkoff and Iron Sheik at only 34. For me, I'd put them in the teens at least. When I think of 80s tag teams, they're one of the first to come to mind for me.
They're one of the worst charities to donate to, if you actually care about the cause. For one thing, less than a dime of every dollar donated actually goes towards looking for a breast cancer cure.
Google Komen scam and you'll find out tons of information about how corrupt they are.
My only retort is that, of course, you or I could have the program laid out in front of us and book all of it much more effectively than they can.
Do you think that some of the problem is that we don't have the whole picture? I can't remember the interview but someone (it might have been HHH) talks about putting guys together who might work well together and who want to work together. Granted, that should be taken with a boulder-size grain of salt because how often would guys refuse bookings? But I think there's a lot of stuff we don't know as fans. We also have to take into account that most of the fantasy booking here is done with the main event. The writers have to take into consideration the mid-card stuff as well. I do agree with the gestalt of your point though.
WWE: they purposely keep their shows mediocre enough to make their PPVs look better in comparison for the sake of PPV carriers and to any company that would carry the WWE Network, but good enough to not have the ratings drop anywhere to TNA's level.
It's all business to them, but they don't consider the PERFECTLY REASONABLE rationale that good shows lead to better ratings which lead to better advertisers, and good shows also lead to more fans which means more merchandise, DVDs and PPVs are bought.
I think the WWE is between a rock and a hard place here. The PPVs, by their very nature, need to be special enough to justify fans paying money to see something they can't on Raw or Smackdown. I think there are things they could do to remedy that (as I'm sure you do as well). I think the Punk-Big E. Langston match was a great example of an improvement: putting established stars in matches with guys who aren't on that level and let them have good matches. I thought both Punk and Big E. came out of that match looking really good.
Honestly I think they're coasting on the love they're getting from the kiddies and their game plan is to shake shit up once it starts drying up I agree, but I don't think they'll do it once it starts drying up. I've really beat the drum on this point but compare and contrast Hogan and Austin's heel turns. The wrestling business, traditionally, doesn't change something until they've wrung every last dollar out of it. If Cena comes back from this injury and gets the same reaction he did the night after Summerslam, if ratings stay flat or go down, if his merch stops moving as much I think he might have a heel turn within a year.
I can sympathize with wrestlers or bookers who must shake their heads and utter, "what the fuck do they know?" but for the love of God, Raw is three hours long and when I read the recaps it seldom seems like even half an hour was good. It's pitiful and, like I mentioned, it's probably purposeful to appease their superiors. Can you imagine how bad, say, the last PPV would seem if you could watch four three-hour Raws a month for free?
I understand that the heart of the wrestling game is to make marks out of people, but nobody's watching the shit that's on now unless they're complaining about a lot of it.
I thought the Summer was actually really, really good. I think a good main event scene is the deodorant for the stink of a mediocre show. Watching Daniel Bryan have awesome matches with different members of the Shield was awesome.
And I'm largely in agreement with you. I think the WWE could please both segments of their viewership: the straight up marks and the smarks. Having good matches on shows that further storylines is possible.
The most egregious aspect of the whole thing is that I think this is the deepest WWE roster ever.
That's what I mean. I wasn't being facetious. It really is cool that LOD and Dudleys got included, because their WWE runs alone were enough to warrant inclusion.
I stopped reading when I got to LayCool.
ReplyDelete11 might a tad high but I have no problem with them in the 15-10 range.
ReplyDeleteIt looks like it's all of wrestling.
ReplyDeleteIt isn't. Just WWE.
ReplyDeleteMy point was HHH can still be an effective heel authority figure, and have good feuds, without getting involved with Bryan and Orton right now. He stayed out of the way Monday which is a good start.
ReplyDeleteYES.
ReplyDeleteAlso Otunga is so wasted not being Clarence Mason 2013.
They said he's training wrestlers at the WWE complex in Florida. Not sure if that's actually true, but that's his "job" according to HHH and Steph.
ReplyDeleteIf HBK hadn't been huge as a single, they're just above Young Stallions level.
ReplyDeleteA listing would be nice for us lazy guys.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.wwe.com/classics/top-50-tag-teams-in-wwe-history/page-40
ReplyDeleteFor an upper midcard tag team, that is one badass picture.
There was a Monday Night Football game and a baseball playoff game. WWE's rating wasn't so bad considering.
ReplyDeleteThey were one of the most popular tag teams. If Shawn hadn't made it, they'd be a huge cult favorite.
ReplyDeleteIt's not really a start since this isn't the first time the two characters have been distanced. They've been gradually moving HHH and Bryan away from each other since the stuff with Show and Cody began.
ReplyDeleteThe APA:
ReplyDeleteAlways
Pounding
Ass
That's why I use Stevie... if I'm going to joke about it, use someone that makes the joke feel at least a little good.
ReplyDeleteWhere IS Otunga these days?
ReplyDeletedoing the right thing and staying the hell off of my tv
ReplyDelete"looked"
ReplyDeleteThe Rock and Roll RPMs were robbed.
ReplyDeleteThe Stallions never had even a phantom title reign. Yeah a bit high for them but they were in the Demos/LOD/Harts era. That division was stacked.
ReplyDeleteIt's not a major thing at all. Wrestling angles in vacuum where prior events much more egregious than this are completely ignored. HHH can move past the fact that Orton kicked his wife in the head. Cena can team up with the guy who tried to kill his 'best friend'. And really, you could write a small book just trying to dissect all the inconsistencies and dropped storylines that make up Kane's back-story. Undertaker was literally portrayed as a zombie, and then all of a sudden had a wife and rode a Harley. Randy Savage hung out with the nWo despite Hogan painting a yellow stripe down his back. Sting went Red & Black because umm...I still have no idea why Sting joined the nWo. Sgt. Slaughter renounced his love of the U.S. and swore loyalty to Saddam Hussein. Why? Just because. Mankind went from being some freak whose hand was messed up due to a piano accident to revealing himself as longtime journeyman wrester Mick Foley...Why? Because the storyline called for it and it worked.
ReplyDeleteSo Big Show went from having an ironclad contract to not having one...why? Because the storyline calls for it.
TL:DR. Pro wresting storylines often pay no attention to anything that happened more than a few months in the past. Big Show's contract is piddling shit compared to everything else that has happened in wrestling history.
They need some cover for not including Jericho & Benoit.
ReplyDeleteAgree
ReplyDeleteIt's cool to see the Road Warriors and Dudleys in the Top 10 of a list of "only WWE" teams.
ReplyDeleteI think Owen & Bulldog deserve Top 10 on an "all WWE" list
ReplyDeleteWith your hands.
ReplyDeleteOh I see. I missed that
ReplyDeleteHere is another from my collection:
ReplyDeletehttp://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p32/RobRob1_2006/Starrcade1993OriginalAdTVHostScan.jpg
Actually he was just 'fired' as head of NXT and replaced with JBL (kayfabe. I think he's still booking/training in real life). So according to kayfabe logic, I don't think he has an official position.
ReplyDeleteWrestlemania Appearances:
ReplyDeleteRockers: 3
Stallions: 0
In terms of Longevity and Cultural Significance, the two attributes singled out in ranking the teams, Rockers blow the Stallions out of the water.
What Dougie said.
ReplyDeleteThe Wyatt's have done nothing but squash midcarders and jobbers over the past few weeks. I kind of like their gimmick, but if I had to cut 90 minutes out of RAW I would cut them until they actually advanced a storyline or did something new.
And plus, the Rockers break up was a huge deal before Shawn became anything.
ReplyDeleteYes, but the 'fast count' was presented as a bogus excuse by HHH. Orton got hit with Bryan's finisher and was out cold.
ReplyDeleteYes, but those didn't involve HHH. According to many people on this blog, the list of worst atrocities in history of mankind goes:
ReplyDelete1) HHH burying Booker T & RVD
2) The Holocaust
3) HHH marrying Steph
4) Stalin
5) Pol Pot6) HHH burying Jericho
7) The Spanish Inquisition
So based on that history, you can see why HHH's shenanigans are the worst thing in the history of RAW..
You forgot HHH humping a corpse, Umaga,
ReplyDeleteHad to make room for Lay Cool.
ReplyDeleteI've never viewed the Mega Powers as a tag team. They never competed in the division even briefly, never won the titles, did they even challenge for them?
ReplyDeleteDid they even wrestle more than 2 matches as a team?
They were allies. Not a tag team.
They're not that bad yet, but they've been shedding audience for the last few weeks, which would have to concern them a bit. It's not like they dropped to this number after football started and are around it every week.
ReplyDeleteYeah, why go with the Jumping Bomb Angels, who were a pretty badass team?
ReplyDeleteCody really has the potential to get over as a face now, so him turning heel would make sense in WWEsville.
ReplyDeleteExactly. You don't see MX in there
ReplyDeleteWell you know how Vince is with his boy toys...
ReplyDeleteWhich is good, considering the crap we were sitting through last year.
ReplyDelete"Hey everyone, boo Punk, PLEASE?"
Little People's Court involved Triple H.
ReplyDeleteThe camera spins around to the front, and reveals the checkpoint is manned by Vince himself, wearing a shit-eating grin and going "PAPERS, PLEASE. GLORY TO ARSTOTZKA."
ReplyDeleteI almost spit my drink out.
100% agree.
ReplyDeleteIt'd probably be very much like when they turned Austin heel - the fans hated it, but Austin himself was FANTASTIC in the role.
Any list with Anderson/Blanchard so low is total bullshit!!!!!!!!!!!
ReplyDeleteExcept he's not a choke artist.
ReplyDeleteDefinitely.
ReplyDeleteThey only debuted, like, two months ago, and it's already hard to believe just how over they were in the beginning.
Sure, some of it is due to how limited Harper and Rowan are, but the bigger issue is that they were brought up as this crazy cult, but they haven't done any crazy cult-like things.
Agree.
ReplyDeleteIn THEORY, beating both guys cleanly should have basically put him on another level (in terms of kayfabe "standings/rankings"), but there was absolutely NO follow-up.
The guy beat Cena clean as a sheet!!! Why haven't the announcers driven that point into the ground???
Who's fault is it?
ReplyDeleteThe paying fans fault for buying the ticket, or the companys fault for not putting people in position to succeed. So you would rather fuck the paying fan and take the chance to kill the town completely?
That's smart.
Re: Bryan.
Perception is reality and Bryan, while winning the matches... doesn't have the gold to prove it. Luger went the same route.
Same shit, different toilet.
RE: Business
ReplyDeleteWWE fucks the paying fan all the time, by offering multiple overpriced PPVs where sometimes NOTHING of note happens, like this past year's Wrestlemania. What's a couple of rinky dink towns they don't bother taping shows at?
RE: Bryan
Luger won by count out, and by being eliminated at the same time as a one legged Bret Hart.
Bryan is winning by kneeing faces in, he's just getting screwed over by the man.
THAT's the difference.
Feels like BleacherReport. I didnt feel like going thru it. Who was number 1?
ReplyDeleteNo, actually the 10 Man Match was cancelled because the HBK/Razor ladder match went much longer than it was supposed to.
ReplyDeleteSupposedly, Randy Savage berated them for taking too much time and making the guys in the 10 man miss out on their spot on the card (and more importantly a WM payday).
As an on screen character, not a wrestler, I think he is just fine
ReplyDeleteI stopped when I realized I'd have to click "next page" 50 times.
ReplyDeleteLets break this down.
ReplyDeleteA family of four buys an overpriced WWE PPV of 50-60 bucks?
Same family goes to a house show...
-The gas that it takes to get there
-The amount for parking
-The price of admission x4
-The amount of food X4
-the amount of merch x4
-The gas it takes to get back.
If that family doesnt get to see John Cena, they most definitely need to ger thier money back because they are putting way more into it than buy a rinky dink PPV once.
See, you are not looking at the big picture. Typical wrestling thinking just about 52 weeks of TV.
Re: Bryan
If he doesnt have the gold, then he is a loser. Having the title is the endgame. I guess I have to go back to my original statement. Wins and Losses dont matter, cuz if they did... why doesn't Bryan have the gold? If he is so over, why isnt he WWE champ, instead of WWE chump.
again... Big picture.
Im tired of wasting my fingers with you people. Yall dont get it.
WWE-only... I'd call it fair, maybe a little low.
ReplyDeleteIt's based on WWE accomplishments alone. The Brainbusters were a flash in the pan.
ReplyDeleteEdge and Christian
ReplyDeleteNot in WWE.
ReplyDeleteDemolition should be #1. At the height of tag-teamdom in the WWF they were the ones with the gold and they held them for 18 months to boot. With all those great teams it still doesn't make sense why they held them for so long.
ReplyDeleteBodydonnas should not be on there. From that era the Headbangers and Godwinns were better. Not to mention the super long reigning Owen & Bulldog team (Owen & Jarrett were ok too). Dream team and Adonis/Murdoch also had good runs (better than Strike Force in the Hogan era). For teams that never got the gold, I thought that the Islanders, Power n' Glory and the Rougeaus were pretty great... But the Rockers were ranked pretty high considering they never really held the gold in the same time frame (even Orient Express... Took two to tango with the Rockers afterall).
ReplyDeleteBodydonnas should not be on there. From that era the Headbangers and
ReplyDeleteGodwinns were better. Not to mention the super long reigning Owen &
Bulldog team (Owen & Jarrett, Owen & Yoko were ok too). Dream team and
Adonis/Murdoch also had good runs (better than Strike Force in the Hogan
era). For teams that never got the gold, I thought that the Islanders,
Power n' Glory and the Rougeaus were pretty great... But the Rockers
were ranked pretty high considering they never really held the gold in
the same time frame (even Orient Express... Took two to tango with the
Rockers afterall).
Yeah they were ok if you're into girl wrestling. Weren't around long though.
ReplyDeletecrazy thing is that even if you take their JCP time into account, Arn and Tully only teamed up for about two years.
ReplyDeleteThe Twin Towers were a bigger deal.
ReplyDeleteThe very first link clearly states that it's based only on their WWE history.
ReplyDeleteThat's the same issue with DX being considered a "great tag team".
ReplyDeleteBut they actually were a team. And they actually made a tag team title match a PPV main event.
ReplyDelete...not that there's anything wrong with that...
ReplyDeleteBut Windham and Luger never wrestled as a team in the WWE.
ReplyDeleteMasturbated. You are implying that he masturbated, I understand.
ReplyDeleteAnd they should be higher.
ReplyDeleteDidn't they do a poll at the last PPV that said DX was the best? Won't they ever listen to their fans?
ReplyDeleteI'd put them in the same 15-10 range. But they were a thrown together main event tag team that didn't have longevity.
ReplyDeleteAnd the blurb reminds me of one of my favorite running jokes of that era: The APA just having a door set up in the middle of backstage, then insisting people actually knock and enter through it.
ReplyDeleteSo when heels like bitches, it's a TRAVESTY!~!, but then a heel looks strong, and everyone gets all pissy and snarky about everything.
ReplyDeleteYeah, I totally missed Batista being the number 2 face for about 5 years based on nothing more than a couple Triple H jobs.
ReplyDeleteHit baiting like that is the most annoying shit. I can moderately tolerate it when sites like Gawker will break it up into 2 pages...but one page for every item? Fuck dat shit.
ReplyDeleteI don't get that facing one of the most over faces on the roster in a not-squash is better for somebodies career than being a dude watching divas matches?
ReplyDeleteYeah, I really don't get it.
They were a team for a couple of months, had one reign and now are considered one of the "best teams ever" with the likes of Demolition, Dudleys, Harts, Bulldogs, etc.
ReplyDeleteIt was justified. Johnny Ace was an idiot.
ReplyDeleteThey made the mega powers EXPLODE!
ReplyDeletePlus Orton had riled Bryan and provoked him into a fight. He poked the good guys weak spots (feelings of inadequacy) while keeping calm himself.
ReplyDeleteThe other teams in that poll were probably The Killer Bees, Too Cool, and the Headbangers.
ReplyDeleteI'm refusing to click through 50 links so I can't give a nuanced opinion but...the Bodydonnas are on there and not Owen/Bulldog? What in the blue hell?!?!
ReplyDeleteIt was that egomaniac, womanizer, no good son of a bitch Hulk Hogan who exploded the mega powers.
ReplyDeleteIt's not teams that wrestled exclusively in WWF/E - it's based on the WWF/E run of these teams. LOD is high if they're #10. Their WWF runs were not good. It'd be like calling Vader the best super heavyweight ever based only on his WWF time.
ReplyDeleteI personally want the heels to get the upper hand a majority of the time.
ReplyDeleteOrton never kicked Stephanie in the head, the worst he did was hit her with that rope drape ddt & then kiss her while HHH watched.
ReplyDeleteOk, for those of you who don't want to click through all the links, the top 10 is below.
ReplyDeleteOn the first page they clearly stated it's based off their WWWF/WWF/WWE history alone - so teams like the Steiners, Brainbusters, and even the Road Warriors are probably ranked lower than they would be if you took their entire career into account (although Arn/Tully were only a team for about 2 years). And of course teams like the R&R Express and Midnight Express aren't on the list at all.
10. Dudley Boyz
9. Wild Samoans
8. Legion of Doom
7. Valiant Brothers
6. British Bulldogs
5. Hardy Boyz
4. New Age Outlaws
3. Demolition
2. Hart Foundation
1. Edge & Christian
it's a weird list in spots. Owen/Bulldog aren't on the list while the Bodydonnas are. There's one women team - and it's Lay-Cool. The Nasty Boys almost made the top 20 (I hate them so, so, so much). And there's a few short-lived 'superstar' teams - Megapowers, DX (HHH/Shawn), Team Hell-No, etc.
Well, that makes it better :p.
ReplyDeleteMy bad - but I don't think it detracts from my larger point.
Mean Street Posse
ReplyDeleteSo bland.
ReplyDeleteStupid list. Too Cool and Team (ugh) Hell No were ranked much too high. It's all politics on the particular day the list is compiled, much like that Top 50 Superstars dvd set, which makes these perversely fascinating.
ReplyDeleteHardys, Dudleys and E&C made top 10, which worked fine for me.
ReplyDelete"It's not a major thing at all. Wrestling angles live in vacuum where prior events much more egregious than this are completely ignored."
ReplyDeleteIs that you Eric Bischoff? Because I'm pretty sure you said Wrestling is no place for people with long term memories.
LayCool even being on that list at all is insulting.
ReplyDeleteLet's be reasonable here. Jericho should be higher. Most fans don't even know who Pol Pot was.
ReplyDeleteI'm still waiting for the Wyatts to "go after" somebody else. After they took Kane off to wherever (my guess is that they're going to bring him back as a member of the cult), they haven't tried to get any new members of the family. Isn't that what a cult does? The Wyatts should be shown recruiting other wrestlers/divas backstage. They don't even have to be successful; maybe everybody just looks at them like they're crazy. But logically they had to leave the swamp and come to the WWE to do something besides wrestle.
ReplyDeleteI got roasted on the 411 boards when I first said that screwing Bryan out of the title was a mistake. "Give it a chance!" was the typical response. I argued with HHH in-charge, I am convinced the WWE will never see another breakout star because nobody can rise above him on the card. He screwed Booker T, Van Dam, Jericho, Punk, and now Bryan. The guy is the absolute worst and wish him and Steph would leave, but this will be blamed on Bryan and then Cena will be back for another 5 years of stale BS.
ReplyDeleteThe BODYDONNAS made the list?
ReplyDeleteSo this list proved once and for all that Too Cool > The Steiner Brothers.
ReplyDeleteSeems like Ugo abduct WWE don't seem to realise that a page doesn't have to fit on the computer screen.
ReplyDeleteWho in their right mind would put dx over the headbangers?
ReplyDeleteYall putting so much into a list that the WWE made.
ReplyDeleteWas it Fan compiled/Wrestler compiled?
I missed that part.
If not, meh...
Well, aren't you a Negative Nelly?
ReplyDeleteThere are two ways of looking at WWE programming because there are two types of wrestling fans:
a) People like us; towards the north end of the target demographic or higher and use the internet somewhat for wrestling-related information
b) Kids; A lot of Cena fans that are easy to please as long as their favourites are on TV and headlining PPVs
Group a) are quite invested in this angle. Even if some are voicing their displeasure over certain things - you know how wrestling fans are, Fuj - they're probably watching more or at least paying attention.
Group b) isn't as interested as usual because Cena is injured and Rey is getting a new leg sewn on, or whatever.
When Cena's on top, generally speaking a) is unhappy and b) is happy.
Here's your mistake, though: there is no such thing as a common fan in North America. Once the Attitude Era ended - and I've seen the numbers - ratings have been mediocre at best (but sufficient to tread water) for the much better part of a decade. The common fan is gone. There's only the two groups.
This is why WWE doesn't give a flying fuck about the quality of their product, ultimately. They only how to make super duper stars out of one or two guys at a time in the hopes that he's the next Hogan, Rock or Austin. That's all they have.
Basically, I think the storyline they have going is the best in at least a couple of years. If you disagree about some aspects, well fine, but as an Austin vs. McMahon-ish type it's got lots of nice little details, it feels REAL, and it's made good use out of The Shield and Orton (H's bitch).
Brock Lesnar losing to Cena?
ReplyDeleteI BOOKED IT!!
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOHHH!!! /Dice Clay
Holy shit. MONEY.
ReplyDeleteI disagree that it hasn't made good use of those people and here is why.
ReplyDelete1. The Shield went from hot heel trio to corporate goons after spinning their wheels. Are they still being showcased in a program? Yes, they are. Are they being booked to the best of their ability? No they are not. You do not book heels 11-3, that makes them babyfaces. And you also do not keep guys with the ability of Rollins and Ambrose in a subserviant role for this long. I'm not in the camp of breaking them up, I am in the camp of turning them loose and having something impactful happen with their characters. They have not had one iota of character tweak since the winter in the three of them. Ambrose is making the best of his screen time with his facials but that is fleeting. The Shield are really becoming a dues ex machina IMO at this point.
2. Bryan is getting fucked. Period. End of story. When the quarters come out and people goto blame the NFL for tanking ratings, HHH will not be apart of that equation. He has already booked himself at a distance from Orton/Bryan. I said months ago that I was fine with the Corporation story, it just took too long to unfold and it never hooked people from flipping to MNF once the season started. Now there are people who are diehards regardless. They are gonna watch football, but for the casuals and fence straddlers, they could have been swayed with a decent story before Sept. All they saw was Bryan get his ass kicked. And the first shit MNF game, they turn back and guess what Bryan doesn't have the belt and still gets beat down? Same shit, different toilet. I don't watch wrestling to see my office life. I watch for escapism. You can't escape when you have smarmy execs who are faux-cool and hip, all the while fucking you over on technicalities because they hold all the cards. That's not wrestling! Plus what 6-8 year old is going to understand terms like "abeyance" and "best for business"
What the fuck is business to a 6 year old?
So you are booking to an older crowd in your main event storyline but cater to kids. Its a mess.
3. Cody Rhodes is a victim of circumstance. Too small, and too short to be of any real use. They needed someone to write off and it just so happened that he was getting married. It helps that he has his family with him and I applaud that, but once HHH abandons the storyline ship, where does this lead people like Cody, the Usos, et al? Right back where they started.
Like I have said in the past. Bryan is only there to make Orton look good in matches and if Bryan does win (i don't think he will) and walk away with the title, very few will be invested by then, because they have killed his heat significantly and when the subsequent buyrate comes in, it will show that "Bryan is not able to draw as a top guy" Nevermind it will be during the dead months of Nov-Dec, hw will get the blame.
Bryan will be crashing back down the card come Jan 14.
I'm sorry to be the negative guy, but there is nothing that is telling me otherwise.
Cena comes back in Jan (after the regular season ends) and will be immediately inserted into the main program. Punk is in his WWEarth-2 storyline with the Heyman guys and that is another main program. Taker comes in... Brock... possibly Rock...
Then Daniel Bryan?
Goddamn, you make some good points.
ReplyDeleteMy only retort is that, of course, you or I could have the program laid out in front of us and book all of it much more effectively than they can. Simply put, they're not good at it and they don't try to be. They have the greatest talent in the world at their immediate disposal, and their shows stink. Not only do they have three hour Raws, but even on a good night maybe only an hour's worth was any good.
Scott alluded to this, but I'm a conspiracy theorist when it comes to WWE: they purposely keep their shows mediocre enough to make their PPVs look better in comparison for the sake of PPV carriers and to any company that would carry the WWE Network, but good enough to not have the ratings drop anywhere to TNA's level.
It's all business to them, but they don't consider the PERFECTLY REASONABLE rationale that good shows lead to better ratings which lead to better advertisers, and good shows also lead to more fans which means more merchandise, DVDs and PPVs are bought. Honestly I think they're coasting on the love they're getting from the kiddies and their game plan is to shake shit up once it starts drying up (Cena's heel turn, which is kind of like GnR's Chinese Democracy...) in order to boost themselves back to a point of relevance in the media.
The difference between you and I is that I believe WWE's motive as far as building stars is that they do want guys like Bryan and The Shield to "make it", but it goes against the reasons above. The landscape is so fucking corporate now that I wouldn't be surprised if they wanted so badly to have Bryan beat Cena, but were forced to wait until he was injured or off to shoot a film or whatever. It's almost like WWE has stockholders, and guys like Cena are an extension of the stock, thus jobbing him out is a conflict of interest.
But yeah, I agree with you in that we're stuck with what we got until the machine starts dying.
Big Show's contract isn't even nickel and dime. It's penny dish. The fact that Big Show is now a blubbering baby is a problem, and that makes it a crappy angle. His ' contract status' is irrelevant.
ReplyDeleteOf course not. A person's lifestyle is nobody's business but their own!
ReplyDeleteHTM held the IC title for ages, I wouldnt rank him #1 because of that though
ReplyDeleteI actually thought he was amazing as a lawyer/lackey.
ReplyDeleteForgive me if this was asked before, but what is your beef with Komen, Scott?
ReplyDeleteMy issue was that they ranked Volkoff and Iron Sheik at only 34. For me, I'd put them in the teens at least. When I think of 80s tag teams, they're one of the first to come to mind for me.
ReplyDeleteMaybe not 1 but he's close. Got to give extra points for being able to keep people interested.
ReplyDeleteThey're one of the worst charities to donate to, if you actually care about the cause. For one thing, less than a dime of every dollar donated actually goes towards looking for a breast cancer cure.
ReplyDeleteGoogle Komen scam and you'll find out tons of information about how corrupt they are.
They're also ruthless against other charities. If you use "cure" in your charity title in any way, be prepared to lawyer up.
ReplyDeleteIf you read up on them, they seem very scummy.
My only retort is that, of course, you or I could have the program laid
ReplyDeleteout in front of us and book all of it much more effectively than they
can.
Do you think that some of the problem is that we don't have the whole picture? I can't remember the interview but someone (it might have been HHH) talks about putting guys together who might work well together and who want to work together. Granted, that should be taken with a boulder-size grain of salt because how often would guys refuse bookings? But I think there's a lot of stuff we don't know as fans. We also have to take into account that most of the fantasy booking here is done with the main event. The writers have to take into consideration the mid-card stuff as well. I do agree with the gestalt of your point though.
WWE: they purposely keep their shows mediocre enough to make their PPVs look better in comparison for the sake of PPV carriers and to any company that would carry the WWE Network, but good enough to not have the ratings drop anywhere to TNA's level.
It's all business to them, but they don't consider the PERFECTLY REASONABLE rationale that good shows lead to better ratings which lead to better advertisers, and good shows also lead to more fans which means more merchandise, DVDs and PPVs are bought.
I think the WWE is between a rock and a hard place here. The PPVs, by their very nature, need to be special enough to justify fans paying money to see something they can't on Raw or Smackdown. I think there are things they could do to remedy that (as I'm sure you do as well). I think the Punk-Big E. Langston match was a great example of an improvement: putting established stars in matches with guys who aren't on that level and let them have good matches. I thought both Punk and Big E. came out of that match looking really good.
Honestly I think they're coasting on the love they're getting from the kiddies and their game plan is to shake shit up once it starts drying up I agree, but I don't think they'll do it once it starts drying up. I've really beat the drum on this point but compare and contrast Hogan and Austin's heel turns. The wrestling business, traditionally, doesn't change something until they've wrung every last dollar out of it. If Cena comes back from this injury and gets the same reaction he did the night after Summerslam, if ratings stay flat or go down, if his merch stops moving as much I think he might have a heel turn within a year.
I can sympathize with wrestlers or bookers who must shake their heads and utter, "what the fuck do they know?" but for the love of God, Raw is three hours long and when I read the recaps it seldom seems like even half an hour was good. It's pitiful and, like I mentioned, it's probably purposeful to appease their superiors. Can you imagine how bad, say, the last PPV would seem if you could watch four three-hour Raws a month for free?
ReplyDeleteI understand that the heart of the wrestling game is to make marks out of people, but nobody's watching the shit that's on now unless they're complaining about a lot of it.
I thought the Summer was actually really, really good. I think a good main event scene is the deodorant for the stink of a mediocre show. Watching Daniel Bryan have awesome matches with different members of the Shield was awesome.
ReplyDeleteAnd I'm largely in agreement with you. I think the WWE could please both segments of their viewership: the straight up marks and the smarks. Having good matches on shows that further storylines is possible.
The most egregious aspect of the whole thing is that I think this is the deepest WWE roster ever.
That's what I mean. I wasn't being facetious. It really is cool that LOD and Dudleys got included, because their WWE runs alone were enough to warrant inclusion.
ReplyDelete