I was at this show. Ended up sitting right on the entry way because our original seats were behind the stage setup and that was where they moved us. You can see Bulldog stop and heel on us during his entrance cause we were giving him a ton of shit.
He had come back from WCW and they decided to make a big deal out of it by having him attack Rock, Foley etc. He hung around that scene for at least a couple of months.
To think that during this time, HHH was just not doing *it* for anyone--he was not seen as legitimate in a top heel role. Enter Stephanie McMahon wedding...game changer.
I love that they brought Bulldog back, put him in a few title matches with big guys, gave him the European title, team him with the Mean Street Posse, and then he loses the title to Val Venis and just vanishes after a tag team match with Kurt Angle.
"Afterwards, I met with the editor of the Calgary Sun who, with tears in his eyes, confided in me that my column was his favorite to read, and that I deserved a National Newspaper Award."
Scott LOVED this match, gave it ****1/2 and also gave a Jericho-X Pac match that was thrown in an hour before the start of the card ****1/4 and I remember the latter being excellent but I don't think I could go over ***1/2 for the six-pack challenge, probably closer to ***.
There's a segment from Smackdown just after HHH had first won his first title and was still with Chyna. Rock is on the ramp going back and forth and straight outclasses HHH on the mic.
The fans eat up everything Rock says and HHH just looks like a loser with a belt that means nothing. I imagine this is when HHH and Stephanie started seeing each other because he had no business being in the postiton that he was in.
Oh my GOODNESS. Someone else remembers Al Isaac constantly claiming a Yoko surprise return. I'm pretty sure he was still making that claim after Yoko passed!!
I think those ratings are best viewed in the context of just how god awful everything else (in both promotions) was in 1999 from an in-ring standpoint.
Bwuh? 'Taker was hurt (and the Corporate Ministry had bombed), they didn't have anyone to elevate to top heel status, and Trips was an upper midcard guy who was working his ass off. He had no business being there because it took them awhile to figure out an angle to push him over the top? You wish they'd pulled the plug sometime around this point and not have seen his epic 2000 run?
I liked the six-pack challenge concept. This period was complete disarray though, with Vince winning the belt and multiple title changes happening throughout the year. I think they could have just had HHH win the belt then retain in the six-pack challenge (to emphasize his 'cerebral assassin' thing and his ability to play a bunch of dudes off each other in order to win). The Hell in a Cell version of this match worked in Dec 2000 too.
Nope. His push was not working at all at this point. Once they did the Stephanie swerve, he started to generate some heat. Then the Foley/Rock feuds put him over the top.
I think the attempt was certainly warranted. By '98 he was becoming one of the top guys. With Austin, Rock, Foley on the face side, they needed a top heel and having him turn on DX made him the logical next choice for a run as Flair-style heel. I think more things could have happened to build him up (hospitalizing Chyna to go solo? Injuring Austin in a beatdown, instead of the "run over by a car" thing?), but the Stephanie wedding thing made it all work anyway.
He probably would have got over sooner if he hadn't been playing second fiddle in the Corporate Ministry angle and/or they didn't have to go through Foley to get the belt on him at Summerslam. I think he suffered from WWF cooling off in general around that point, but he started picking up when he started hitting people with sledgehammers and beat Austin at No Mercy.
HHH probably should have been champ for a year starting at SummerSlam (although that match saw a really surprising clean title victory for Mankind and Mankind was my favorite, so I was happy.) That era was the beginning of the end of the title meaning everything, which is a shame.
He actually came back for a brief bit in August, where they started forming a stable with him, Angle, and Benoit all being managed by Shane, but then they sent him back again.
Yeah, Triple H and Cactus Jack damn near killing each other, Triple H and Rock going hard for an hour, Austin joining forces with Mr. McMahon himself...all because no one gave a shit about the title!
Amazing how good the product got once The Radicalz came in. 2000 is still untouchable. I am a Vince Russo aplogist, however Chris Kreski really helped get the WWE organized and into a better flow.
"Beginning" of the end. The prestige was definitely taken down a notch by things like VKM's reign, The Big Show experiment, and the sheer volume of reigns the top guys had. People care about the belt now, too, but it doesn't mean as much as it did when every title reign could easily be listed in under two minutes and there weren't multiple guys who were like 38-time champions.
I agree. 1999 saw both the WWF and WCW world titles devalued. Ridiculous amount of title changes and spastic booking decisions. WWF had Undertaker holding the belt despite being like 4th or 5th on the depth chart. The Big Show thing. Vince winning the title. HHH having three reigns before Wrestlemania. One-night Mankind win. Disarray
I think you're right. I still think they should have just built to Austin-Big Show at SummerSlam, with Austin retaining from Wrestlemania to summer. When Austin slays the giant, Vince books him in the six-pack challenge (last straw, he's doesn't care who wins the belt, as long as it's off Austin). HHH can win it there, only for Austin to get his re-match at No Mercy. HHH proves he can win one-on-one and you're off and running. No "WWF Champ Vince McMahon" nonsense. No aborted title reigns. Just have him win it convincingly, put Austin on the shelf (without the "driver" angle, just an old fashioned sledgehammer beating to the neck or something), then carry the belt all the way to Wrestlemania.
Austin was taking some time off, IIRC. Trips beat the shit out of his knee with a chair after the Summerslam match, and then I don't think he wrestled again until No Mercy.
Ah, got it. Well, to each their own, but I still care much less about the history of a fake championship than about whether or not the story/television is entertaining.
I find the storytelling more compelling when the holy grail of the fictional universe only rarely changes hands. That way the title change seems like something truly devastating to whoever loses it and truly career-defining to whoever wins it. Instead of like, "Oh, he got it again. Cool. Well I guess he'll have that a couple of months again."
I get it, it just doesn't really mean anything to me so long as the product is entertaining. I'll take Foley and Rock passing the belt back and forth over Cena's 2005-07 run eight days a fucking week.
I don't get the idea that title switches hurt the value of the belt, objectively, though, so long as it remains established that everyone really wants to be the champion. I mean, does a 7-9 Seattle team winning their division and a playoff game or a 10-6 team winning it all devalue the NFL season and the Lombardi Trophy? The seventh best team in the American League going to the World Series?
The thing with those is that the Lombardi Trophy and World Series trophies can only change hands once a year. We just have different tastes. I mean, yes, I enjoyed the Rock and Foley's matches more, but I don't think they swapped the belt more than the amorphous blob of Orton/Edge/Cena/HHH/Batista reigns. I just think it's better linear story-telling when each title change reflects a major plot point in the ongoing narrative of WWE (and I mean the decades-long narrative, not the narrative of just that year.) Different strokes.
Yeah, I didn't mean that to come off as shitty. I'm not interested in telling people what to like, I just don't wholly get it from an objective standpoint. I do think that this:
" I just think it's better linear story-telling when each title change reflects a major plot point in the ongoing narrative of WWE"
Probably sums up my feelings on it too, actually (I still have no idea why the hell they put the belt on Big Show at Survivor Series instead of just keeping it on Triple H all the way to Backlash), so I guess we just wind up debating whether the change makes sense to the plot. :)
I just thought of a good match you would not have thought was any good. Hogan vs. Ortin from May 1987 Superstars. Although, I think the rope breaking was a shoot - but it gave the match a great dynamic.
Oh I agree. Austin-Show would have needed a better build. In particular, not booking Show like a goofball and having him be the undefeated monster leading in to the Austin match
I liked this one.
ReplyDeleteIf I ever decided to give up on life, I'd find some psycho who has every Raw, Smackdown and PPV from the Attitude Era and watch it constantly.
What was the idea behind the British Bulldog being in the main event scene?
ReplyDeleteI was at this show. Ended up sitting right on the entry way because our original seats were behind the stage setup and that was where they moved us. You can see Bulldog stop and heel on us during his entrance cause we were giving him a ton of shit.
ReplyDeleteAn established guy with a name that could be used as fodder for The Rock.
ReplyDelete(Hazy recollection)
ReplyDeleteHe had come back from WCW and they decided to make a big deal out of it by having him attack Rock, Foley etc. He hung around that scene for at least a couple of months.
Needless to say, it didn't last long.
Didn't he get Rock Bottomed onto dog shit?
ReplyDeletegood stuff... didnt realize your canadian accent was that thick scott lol.
ReplyDeleteThis British Bulldog run was pretty worthless. High paid sacrificial lamb to the top guys.
ReplyDelete"Rock Bottom! Rock Bottom! Into the dog poop! The dog poop! Rock Bottom into the dog poop!"
ReplyDeleteClassic call by Cole.
I wouldn't call that subtle.
ReplyDeleteThe last words Michael Cole should hear are "Allahu" and "Akbar".
I guess I meant subtle in that 90% of the audience would have never read the Calgary Sun, or even known that Bret had a column.
ReplyDeleteThe other 10% may have heard about it on Scoops.
I actually miss that version of Big Show's theme. I'm so over his current one.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-JhKCmdGDY
ReplyDeleteflaris awesome promo from the last nitro mentioned in the podcast.
Such a fantastic, from the heart promo. Great stuff.
ReplyDeletepin me, pay me, poo me.
ReplyDeleteOr "poo on me"
ReplyDeleteJimmy Valiant account spotted.
ReplyDeleteTo think that during this time, HHH was just not doing *it* for anyone--he was not seen as legitimate in a top heel role. Enter Stephanie McMahon wedding...game changer.
ReplyDeleteHe was not over at all here.
ReplyDeleteScoops ruled.
ReplyDeleteNo it did not.
ReplyDeleteThis has nothing to do with Daniel Bryans failed push...moving on...
ReplyDeleteWait so this is you while NOT having given up on life?
ReplyDeleteHe should have just kept coming out to the Unholy Alliance theme. Fit him perfectly.
ReplyDeleteI love that they brought Bulldog back, put him in a few title matches with big guys, gave him the European title, team him with the Mean Street Posse, and then he loses the title to Val Venis and just vanishes after a tag team match with Kurt Angle.
ReplyDelete"Afterwards, I met with the editor of the Calgary Sun who, with tears in his eyes, confided in me that my column was his favorite to read, and that I deserved a National Newspaper Award."
ReplyDelete"Enter Stephanie McMahon...game changer."
ReplyDeleteFixed
Scott LOVED this match, gave it ****1/2 and also gave a Jericho-X Pac match that was thrown in an hour before the start of the card ****1/4 and I remember the latter being excellent but I don't think I could go over ***1/2 for the six-pack challenge, probably closer to ***.
ReplyDeleteBig SHow is fucking ripped (for him).
ReplyDeleteLoved Scott's line "I probably made more money off ECW than Paul Heyman did"
ReplyDeleteDirect link to the pod:
http://placetobenation.com/place-to-be-podcast-episode-269-ptbn-summit-pro-wrestling-in-the-spring-2001/
There's a segment from Smackdown just after HHH had first won his first title and was still with Chyna. Rock is on the ramp going back and forth and straight outclasses HHH on the mic.
ReplyDeleteThe fans eat up everything Rock says and HHH just looks like a loser with a belt that means nothing. I imagine this is when HHH and Stephanie started seeing each other because he had no business being in the postiton that he was in.
He started to get really fat after this to the point that he was useless shortly after Wrestlemania 2000. Didn't he get sent down it OVW in 2000?
ReplyDeleteAnd in revenge for Bulldog being humiliated like that, the Hart Foundation was going to attack Rock with their new member....Yokozuna!
ReplyDeleteThey gave him some awesome JTTS entrance music too. Why didn't they just give him his old theme.
ReplyDeleteYes he did. Didn't come back until the 2001 rumble
ReplyDeleteUnbridled genius, isn't it?
ReplyDeleteOh my GOODNESS. Someone else remembers Al Isaac constantly claiming a Yoko surprise return. I'm pretty sure he was still making that claim after Yoko passed!!
ReplyDeletei think he did have it for a few appearances
ReplyDeleteSEXUAL INTERCOURSE
ReplyDeleteyou're talking abut sexual intercourse, arent you?
i bet he's talking abut sexual intercourse
I think those ratings are best viewed in the context of just how god awful everything else (in both promotions) was in 1999 from an in-ring standpoint.
ReplyDeleteHEYYYYYYYYYYY TONY SCHIAVONTOOOOOOO
ReplyDeleteGreat promo and the only time you'll hear Bagwell's name in the same sentence as Race, Briscoes and Flair.
ReplyDeleteYour obsession with ripping into Hart over and over for no reason is kind of sad.
ReplyDeleteBwuh? 'Taker was hurt (and the Corporate Ministry had bombed), they didn't have anyone to elevate to top heel status, and Trips was an upper midcard guy who was working his ass off. He had no business being there because it took them awhile to figure out an angle to push him over the top? You wish they'd pulled the plug sometime around this point and not have seen his epic 2000 run?
ReplyDeleteI liked the six-pack challenge concept. This period was complete disarray though, with Vince winning the belt and multiple title changes happening throughout the year. I think they could have just had HHH win the belt then retain in the six-pack challenge (to emphasize his 'cerebral assassin' thing and his ability to play a bunch of dudes off each other in order to win). The Hell in a Cell version of this match worked in Dec 2000 too.
ReplyDeleteNope. His push was not working at all at this point. Once they did the Stephanie swerve, he started to generate some heat. Then the Foley/Rock feuds put him over the top.
ReplyDeleteI think the attempt was certainly warranted. By '98 he was becoming one of the top guys. With Austin, Rock, Foley on the face side, they needed a top heel and having him turn on DX made him the logical next choice for a run as Flair-style heel. I think more things could have happened to build him up (hospitalizing Chyna to go solo? Injuring Austin in a beatdown, instead of the "run over by a car" thing?), but the Stephanie wedding thing made it all work anyway.
ReplyDeleteWasn't the rumor at the time that WWF was trying to save face after the Owen death by putting Bulldog in their good graces?
ReplyDeleteHe probably would have got over sooner if he hadn't been playing second fiddle in the Corporate Ministry angle and/or they didn't have to go through Foley to get the belt on him at Summerslam. I think he suffered from WWF cooling off in general around that point, but he started picking up when he started hitting people with sledgehammers and beat Austin at No Mercy.
ReplyDeleteTo be fair, the Vince winning the title thing set up his feud with Triple H and Stephanie turning...so it all worked out in the end.
ReplyDeleteI had every Raw, SmackDown, and PPV from the Attitude Era. You should have given up on life sooner!
ReplyDeleteHHH probably should have been champ for a year starting at SummerSlam (although that match saw a really surprising clean title victory for Mankind and Mankind was my favorite, so I was happy.) That era was the beginning of the end of the title meaning everything, which is a shame.
ReplyDeleteHe actually came back for a brief bit in August, where they started forming a stable with him, Angle, and Benoit all being managed by Shane, but then they sent him back again.
ReplyDeleteThe same thing with the tights, he wore them for this match, but then wrestled in jeans afterward.
ReplyDeleteNo they didn't. He was always over. What big star ever laid down for him?
ReplyDeleteYeah, Triple H and Cactus Jack damn near killing each other, Triple H and Rock going hard for an hour, Austin joining forces with Mr. McMahon himself...all because no one gave a shit about the title!
ReplyDeleteAmazing how good the product got once The Radicalz came in. 2000 is still untouchable. I am a Vince Russo aplogist, however Chris Kreski really helped get the WWE organized and into a better flow.
ReplyDelete"Beginning" of the end. The prestige was definitely taken down a notch by things like VKM's reign, The Big Show experiment, and the sheer volume of reigns the top guys had. People care about the belt now, too, but it doesn't mean as much as it did when every title reign could easily be listed in under two minutes and there weren't multiple guys who were like 38-time champions.
ReplyDeleteOh lighten up, it's a joke.
ReplyDeleteI stand corrected.
ReplyDeleteI agree. 1999 saw both the WWF and WCW world titles devalued. Ridiculous amount of title changes and spastic booking decisions. WWF had Undertaker holding the belt despite being like 4th or 5th on the depth chart. The Big Show thing. Vince winning the title. HHH having three reigns before Wrestlemania. One-night Mankind win. Disarray
ReplyDeleteI think you're right. I still think they should have just built to Austin-Big Show at SummerSlam, with Austin retaining from Wrestlemania to summer. When Austin slays the giant, Vince books him in the six-pack challenge (last straw, he's doesn't care who wins the belt, as long as it's off Austin). HHH can win it there, only for Austin to get his re-match at No Mercy. HHH proves he can win one-on-one and you're off and running. No "WWF Champ Vince McMahon" nonsense. No aborted title reigns. Just have him win it convincingly, put Austin on the shelf (without the "driver" angle, just an old fashioned sledgehammer beating to the neck or something), then carry the belt all the way to Wrestlemania.
ReplyDeleteAustin was taking some time off, IIRC. Trips beat the shit out of his knee with a chair after the Summerslam match, and then I don't think he wrestled again until No Mercy.
ReplyDeleteAh, got it. Well, to each their own, but I still care much less about the history of a fake championship than about whether or not the story/television is entertaining.
ReplyDeleteI find the storytelling more compelling when the holy grail of the fictional universe only rarely changes hands. That way the title change seems like something truly devastating to whoever loses it and truly career-defining to whoever wins it. Instead of like, "Oh, he got it again. Cool. Well I guess he'll have that a couple of months again."
ReplyDeleteI get it, it just doesn't really mean anything to me so long as the product is entertaining. I'll take Foley and Rock passing the belt back and forth over Cena's 2005-07 run eight days a fucking week.
ReplyDeleteI don't get the idea that title switches hurt the value of the belt, objectively, though, so long as it remains established that everyone really wants to be the champion. I mean, does a 7-9 Seattle team winning their division and a playoff game or a 10-6 team winning it all devalue the NFL season and the Lombardi Trophy? The seventh best team in the American League going to the World Series?
The thing with those is that the Lombardi Trophy and World Series trophies can only change hands once a year. We just have different tastes. I mean, yes, I enjoyed the Rock and Foley's matches more, but I don't think they swapped the belt more than the amorphous blob of Orton/Edge/Cena/HHH/Batista reigns. I just think it's better linear story-telling when each title change reflects a major plot point in the ongoing narrative of WWE (and I mean the decades-long narrative, not the narrative of just that year.) Different strokes.
ReplyDeleteYeah, I didn't mean that to come off as shitty. I'm not interested in telling people what to like, I just don't wholly get it from an objective standpoint. I do think that this:
ReplyDelete" I just think it's better linear story-telling when each title change
reflects a major plot point in the ongoing narrative of WWE"
Probably sums up my feelings on it too, actually (I still have no idea why the hell they put the belt on Big Show at Survivor Series instead of just keeping it on Triple H all the way to Backlash), so I guess we just wind up debating whether the change makes sense to the plot. :)
I just thought of a good match you would not have thought was any good. Hogan vs. Ortin from May 1987 Superstars. Although, I think the rope breaking was a shoot - but it gave the match a great dynamic.
ReplyDeleteOh I agree. Austin-Show would have needed a better build. In particular, not booking Show like a goofball and having him be the undefeated monster leading in to the Austin match
ReplyDelete