Looking for a Shawn Michaels-Mr. Perfect match that wasn't considered disappointing and low and behold they hooked up in a nice little ditty before Wrestlemania VII when HBK was still a Rocker. Give this one 5-7 more minutes and you're looking at a potential HBK classic. As it is it's two guys taking some awesome bumps as Shawn even pulls out the hands free top rope plancha/tope thing early on. It misses completely and he destroys a poor cameraman but hey it's the thought that counts.
Enjoy your weekend and whatever you do make sure it's good for business.
Enjoy your weekend and whatever you do make sure it's good for business.
"- By all accounts, Sting and Luger were the backup third man options? Do either of those guys have an impact in that role?"
ReplyDeleteHell no. Luger is Luger, and Sting can't play a heel to save his life. Bret Hart would be a better option than those two.
"- Do Nash and Hall become bigger stars, not being overshadowed by Hogan?"
I doubt it. Hall still would have his drug problems, and Nash became a pretty big star anyway.
"- If Hogan positions himself as the top oppoisng babyface, does he insist on going over the entrie NWO in 6 months, thus killing the entire angle in about half a year?"
Probably, and that might not have been a bad thing, that angle went on WAY too long.
"- Does Bischoff and managemnt see the money in the NWO and pay Hogan to stay home so he doesnt pull "Hogan things?" If so, who is elevated as the top opposing face?"
We're talking about Eric Bischoff here, so no. If that did happen though, it would be either Sting or Luger, or maybe Flair.
"- Does the overall angle just simmer out without Hogan? Asking it another way, how important was Hogan to the overall draw of the NWO?"
If it was booked right, then it would still work. It wouldn't have been booked right.
"- Does WCW ever exert dominance over WWF without an NWO led Hogan?"
See my answer to the previous question.
nWo was hot without him and Bischoff probably decides to tell Hogan to keep making shitty TNT movies if won't turn heel.
ReplyDeleteIf Hogan isn't involved at all, it's a successful angle but doesn't have the mainstream crossover it wound up having. The fact that HULK HOGAN turned his back on the fans is what gave the angle the ability to completely dominate WCW television for a couple of years and elevate WCW to the clear #1 company for a while.
ReplyDeleteLuger and even Sting don't have the same cache as the third man. Luger because he was a tweener at best during his return to WCW and considering that he was coming back from the WWF, it would have actually been logical, if uninspiring, that he was the third man. As for the Stinger, I'm not 100% he really could have gotten over as a heel. I could have seen it similar to Austin's heel turn in 2001 where the fans just didn't really want to boo their hero. Even though Sting was basically floundering since Hogan's arrival, he was still a very beloved wrestler.
While Hogan had a ton of political power and was making a boatload of money, don't underestimate the contracts that Hall and Nash received from WCW. Aside from their large downside guarantee, they also had verbiage in the contract that said something along the lines of they were always to be the highest paid guys on the roster (or something similar, I don't recall the specifics) and it's one of the reasons they were pushing for WCW to sign Bret to that huge contract in 1997 because it also meant an increase in salary for The Outsiders. I think that contract stipulation could have made Bischoff not want Hogan to just bury the angle in six months because of how much they were going to have to pay Hall and Nash and wouldn't want to pay that much money to a couple of guys who weren't very over.
HBK's blood lust for WWE cameramen begins.
ReplyDelete"Favored Nation Status", I think it was called. Though I believe that they waived that clause when WCW signed Bret.
ReplyDeleteDidn't we do this one last week?
ReplyDeleteWithout Hogan, the angle doesn't work. Sting can't be a heel, Luger is already a heel. Maybe you could put Savage in that spot to salvage it a little, but without Hogan, it's dead after Starcade.
ReplyDeleteI saw the title of this post and thought your meltdown was here... I am glad it wasn't... I don't want to live in a world where The Fuj was right.
ReplyDeleteAs for the issue at hand... the angle doesn't work without Hogan. Period. If he isn't there and Bischoff goes for it anyway it just becomes another heel stable and fizzles in a matter of months.
ReplyDeleteHa. I'm meltdown proof. I got no beefs, it is what it is.
ReplyDeleteSting's promo after Fall Brawl 96, repurposed a little bit, would have worked as a heel turn at Bash 96. Hogan needed the nWo more than it need it him, which is why Hogan was so smart.
ReplyDeleteThe angle was already working before Hogan joined.
ReplyDeleteAnd? All along they built to the "3rd Man" that was the majority of the interest in it. If the 3rd man isn't Hogan it doesn't have the same impact and it doesn't work.
ReplyDeleteI think it stays hot with anyone as the third man. The Nash/Hall stuff was so over. I can't fathom that Bischoff and the other power players don't see the money in it. I think Hogan getting paid to just go away is a real real possibility
ReplyDeleteI think you could plug in Savage (didn't even think of him until Dougie mentioned him) and it would work nearly as well. Assuming they could get him, Shawn Michaels would have been great as the 3rd man as well.
ReplyDeleteYou're wrong.
ReplyDeleteSting has never been an effective heel and wouldn't have been here... and the nWo needed Hogan as much as Hogan needed the nWo... if not more because as discussed if it is any one other than him he would be the conquering hero and squash all of them in a matter of months.
Sting SUCKS as a heel, despite all the talk I doubt making him the 3rd guy was ever really considered.
ReplyDeleteHe does suck as a heel. I don't know what their other option were though. Luger woulda been worse. I don't recall why Savage wasn't considered more...was he coming off a face turn or something?
ReplyDeleteI doubt Bischoff lets Hogan anywhere near them if he doesn't turn heel.
ReplyDeleteBischoff has proven 100x over that he can't control hogan... and hogan would never let himself not be associated with the top act in any promotion he is in.
ReplyDeleteI wonder if Flair was ever considered. I mean, he's probably the first person you think of if you hear the words "WCW", so him turning on the whole company would have been nearly as big a shock as Hogan. Plus he's the greatest heel ever.
ReplyDeleteProblem is... he is a heel by nature... a Flair heel turn isn't a shocking thing. Only people that would have been shocking (and were avaiable at the time) are Sting and Hogan... and Sting as we have discussed is a shit heel
ReplyDeleteWant he already a heel also at this point? I don't recall...
ReplyDeleteYea, Hogan, Sting or a new wwf guy are the only guts who can live up to the hype
Am I the only one that thinks Owen would have fit in well in the nWo? Not as the 3rd man, but I think he would have been better then Waltman as the cocky little guy of the group.
ReplyDeleteI can't get there on it. I always viewed Owen as kinda a dork, for a lack of a better term.
ReplyDeleteHe might have been a heel before Hall showed up on Nitro, but the whole invasion angle instantly turned him face. Remember, he was one of the other 3 guys (Hogan and Big Show being the other 2, IIRC) that were considered for team WCW.
ReplyDeleteHogan was on life support before he turned. Bischoff would have hitched his wagon to Hall and Nash.
ReplyDeleteHeel by nature, sure, but I'm sure I'm not the only one that thinks of him as the face of WCW. It would have been pretty shocking.
ReplyDeleteSting never really had a proper heel run. I have a hard time believing he wouldn't have made it work. It was a slam dunk angle.
ReplyDeleteSavage was always a face in WCW until Jan 97.
ReplyDeleteI was talking about Flair, not Savage.
ReplyDeleteSean Michaels! Really? Way to go Dunn!
ReplyDeleteSting as a heel would go about as well as Miz's face run.
ReplyDeleteYeah, I can see that. The nWo was like a badass outlaw biker gang without the bikes. Owen isn't exactly the first guy that comes to mind when you think "badass". Then again, neither is Sean Waltman.
ReplyDelete"Sting never really had a proper heel run."
ReplyDeleteThink there could be a reason for that?
The only person that would be more over as the third man than Hogan would be Chris Walker!
ReplyDeleteI always loved the "If it weren't for Hulk Hogan, Eric Bischoff would still be selling meat out of the back of a truck in Minneapolis" line, or something to that effect. Hell, lets just watch it again: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bfQ3IH-TWVI , the promo starts at about 4 minutes in.
ReplyDeleteYea. That is a great line.
ReplyDeleteThe thing I always liked were Halls mannerisms and poses while Hogans talking.
Nash swatting away the beer someone threw at him gets the win for me
ReplyDeleteI have this match on an old Coliseum Video cassette tape. It's always nice to see Hennig against a good worker before his back went to total hell...
ReplyDeleteYeah, Hall and Nash doing the Hogan poses is fucking hilarious.
ReplyDeleteScrew 5-7 more minutes, it needs more Chris Walker!
ReplyDeleteThe nwo doesn't quite take off to the same heights at first but it's still the hottest angle in the business and Hulk Hogan relents and does the heel turn at Fall Brawl and things turn out pretty much the same.
ReplyDelete'96 Sting wasn't born again yet so i think his turn would turn out pretty well at least in the short term.
Mean Gene not swatting away the water bottle that hit him in the heat gets the win from me.
ReplyDeleteAlso, Flair turning messes with the NWO "vibe". Flair saying "Fuck Tradition." would never feel right.
ReplyDeleteSting would get overshadowed by Hall and Nash pretty quickly. Same with Luger, although he could be a decent "traitor/mole" as the third guy (Considering he's ex-WWF at least)
Strangely, The Giant might have made a solid third guy. Dumping the Dungeon of Dud for Hall and Nash, deciding that he's had enough of WCW's "bullshit"... And also, being WCW World Champ at the time...
Other than them... I have no one within WCW that could pull it off.
"Also, Flair turning messes with the NWO "vibe". Flair saying "Fuck Tradition." would never feel right."
ReplyDeleteThat's why I think it would work. And the Giant would be a DISASTER as the 3rd man. Could you imagine him trying to cut the promo Hogan cut?
Sting couldn't cut a promo to save his life.
ReplyDeleteAll Giant needs to say is "These two guys came up to me, and showed me respect/money. I'm joining them, and screw the rest of you." Let him start to grow out of the ARGHHHHHHH!GIANT role he'd been in, but don't rush him.
ReplyDeleteGiant as World Champ, Hall and Nash as Tag Champs, run wild for the next year.
You do realize we're talking about Paul Wight, right? The guy that no wrestling fan ever has ever given a shit about...
ReplyDeleteI agree with all of this. Two major things going: one is Hogan was still the biggest mainstream star in the business and two was the fact he was supposed to be the ultimate good guy.
ReplyDeleteWhen all this was going on Kevin Greene was involved with WCW. I believe these two things worked to bring people back to wrestling that had gave up on it beforehand.
Hogan joining the NWO made Vince desperate enough to listen to Shane. I don't see the attitude era happening without Hogan joining the NWO because Vince's didn't seem to be with making money, it appeared he was more offended in losing to WCW. I believe Vince would have no problem being regional as long as he was number 1.
ReplyDeletePlus the fact that fans would no-sell his turn
ReplyDeleteYes, yes they would. Hell, that would probably make Hall and Nash 2 of the top 3 babyfaces in the company.
ReplyDeleteThat was funny
ReplyDeleteYeah...that joke is outlived its usefulness.
ReplyDeleteMarcus Alexander Bagwell certainly didn't either.
ReplyDeleteWhat would have happened if Nash was the leader of the NWO? We talked about the Goldberg-Nash match a while back, and it didn't go over like gangbusters. I believe that Nash's standing with fans was irrevocably harmed by staying in tag matches for over a year, doing half the work, and lazily collecting his high six figure (later seven figure) contract paychecks.
ReplyDeleteBut when Nash and Hall first came in--those first six months--they were hungry creatively. Imagine if they weren't playing second fiddle to Hogan. This was Diesel--the top dog of the WWF for a year--completely unleashed. This was Razor Ramon--an awesome talent who was always in the "shoulda" category for world titles. Imagine them having the top two feuds against WCW singles stars instead of fighting the Faces of Fear, Harlem Heat, and the Steiners in the background.
As much as I think Nash deserves a good Joey Styles shot to the face to knock that perpetual smirk off, early NWO was the shit. I think it is possible to get to even higher heights without the two boring, meandering Hogan/Bischoff promos per show. After the first two months of the group (shock factor and startling metamorphosis), Hogan's contributions to the group are horribly overrated. He gained a lot more from being associated with Nash and Hall as 96 turned into 97. If the snarky, psychological geniuses--Nash and Hall--are motivated and healthy, they do more for the business. The third man could have even been Waltman and this could have been the new generation's official takeover.
The worst case scenario is Bret Hart coming over and being the leader.
ReplyDeleteMuch like Chris Walker.
ReplyDeleteI think the novelty of Bret in the NWO would have done big business for awhile, if they could get all 3 within a close time proximity. He didn't have the cache of Hogan to carry it to the heights Hogan did though. I'm not even sure Bret would be positioned ahead of Nash.
ReplyDeleteBret in WCW was always gonna turn into a disaster since he never had to political backing he needed to navigate the Hogans, Bischoffs, Halls, nashs, etc.
As I said below, he would have been a better option than Sting or Luger. But I agree, Bret as the 3rd man would have bombed.
ReplyDeleteHe should have formed a stable with Mike Rotunda and Rick Flair.
ReplyDeleteI'm not even sure Brets positioned ahead of Nash
ReplyDeleteI just don't see Flair fitting in as a cool heel with Nash and Hall. It only woulda worked if he was positioned as like the groups "godfather" type, almost like how HHH positioned him in evolution.
ReplyDeleteHe'd be far down my list as potential 3rd men
Why can't Sting be an effective heel? Is it because he's too nice of a guy IRL?
ReplyDeleteWithout Hogan, the NWO invasion has SOME impact, but defintely not as huge as Hogan joining. Hogan telling all the little kids to stick it, made the angle what it was...up until that point. If Hogan had remained babyface, the third man would have been Luger. See the difference? Luger has never been in Hogan's league. Hall and Nash were big deals, yes. But Hogan made them bigger.
ReplyDeleteAfter that, Hogan gives the NWO the rub by letting them kick his ass, along with the rest of WCW, because ultimately, he has to see the business this could bring. Eventually, however, Hogan vs. Luger at Starrcade culminates in Hogan beating him, killing the NWO angle early in 1997.
But if Hogan doesn't tell all the little Hulksters to stick it, then Hogan might eventually turn the NWO face, because we all hated him at that point.Leave a message...
I was watching an old Nitro from right before that turn when Savage comes back to WCW. A slew of jobbers keep coming down to the ring and Savage beats them all up. Savage sets up a chair in the ring and the crowd just loses it.
ReplyDeleteWithout Hogan on the heel side (and perpetual winning side, more importantly) I don't think the nWo is any more than a footnote. I bet at the first "Hog Wild" you get Hogan & Savage vs. Nash & Hall (with Savage taking the pin of course). Maybe Luger or Sting is on the nWo side, but it's pretty immaterial. You probably get Hogan beating Hall at Halloween Havoc, with Nash maneuvering himself politically into being The Guy on the heel side (probably with another win over Macho). Starrcade you get Hogan vs. Nash and I bet the nWo never gets off the ground. If by chance Nash goes over at Starrcade (ONLY by a big heel turn by someone like Savage or Giant), I bet Hogan gets his win back by SuperBrawl and it's over fairly unceremoniously. The interesting study would have been the reactions Hogan's stale babyface act would have drawn when opposing the cool new heels.
ReplyDeleteHogan was the perfect 3rd man and the angle would not have been launched into the stratosphere without him.
ReplyDelete1. It made sense - Since it was portrayed as a WWF Invasion early on, who was more synonamis with the WWF than Hogan?
2. Hogan was already getting booed. Hogan was moving into the Cena territory of mixed reactions. Fans were tired of the schtick and you had oldschool NWA fans that hated Hogan being there to begin with.
3. Hogan was the Anti-Luger. Before Big Show, Lex Lugar was the man of 1000 turns. Every time a wrestler turns face or heel, it means a little less the next time. The vast majority of fans had NEVER seen Hogan as a heel and it was just something people didn't think could happen. You have Lugar be the 3rd man and it's a big "Meh". Sting would be better, but Hogan fit perfectly.
What, you're posting legitimately now?
ReplyDeleteInstead of Hogan you could have had Brutus Beefcake be the third man and it would have worked out just as good, if not better.
ReplyDeleteI was going to say that this is the lost Michaels vs. Cameraman classic, but you pulled the sarcastic quip off better, so here's your thumbs up... dick.
ReplyDeleteFuck that. Shockmaster = third man
ReplyDeleteYup. Hogan goes over Nash at Starrcade 96 and the angles dead in 5 months. Boggles my mind he kills it off in 5 months, but I'm almost certain that's the alternate ending we get
ReplyDeleteThe look on Bobby's face when Michaels crotches Hennig on the post is priceless.
ReplyDeleteWhat if Bischoff never joins?
ReplyDeleteEverything about this is magical.
ReplyDeleteThey're both moving so well, Heenan's at the top of his game, Jannetty's hair is magnificently feathered...truly great stuff.
GodDAMN do I miss Curt Hennig.
Thats just as good as it gets! Completely awesome
ReplyDeleteThat's a really fun little match thanks for posting it.
ReplyDeleteIt's like they were trying to outdo each other in the dramatic overselling.
This was tremendous fun, which makes it even more baffling that they so completely failed to click at Summerslam just two years later.
ReplyDeleteI think you're right. Bischoff would probably have to have Hogan take a long vacation or something and let Nash/Hall/??? beat up on all the WCW guys for a long while. Of course it would all lead to the triumphant return of Hogan to beat everyone in '97 anyway
ReplyDeleteYea, even if Hogan goes away , WCW was giving him so much money eventually they're gonna feel like they have to bring him back.
ReplyDeleteWhen he comes back you know he's getting right in the middle of that angle.
If Hogan isn't the Third Man, the nWo never becomes a big deal. One reason: if Hogan is anywhere but IN the nWo, they never get to be dominant heels who run roughshod over the company and destroy everything in their way without showing ass. If Hulk is still a face, the nWo never gets to be much more than a bunch of cannon fodder when they come up against Hulk & Friends.
ReplyDeleteSorry if this has been mentioned already, but you have to wonder if the nWo would have been able to be as dominant as it was right out the gate if Hogan wasn't involved. I can't see the nWo beating WCW down week after week after week to get as over as they did if it's at Hogan's expense. Or if Nash and Hall are able to have their ideas used if Hogan's not backing them. It easily could have been Ace's and 8's without Hogan being on board.
ReplyDeleteYeah. That raises an interesting point though. What if Hogan returns from a much longer hiatus and turns THEN? Say, Nash/Hall/Luger are the initial group and when Hogan returns he turns then? Maybe it doesn't change much, maybe it's equally shocking?
ReplyDeleteThat's what I just said. You're a smart motherfucker. But agreed, if Hogan's on the face side of things he's not getting beat down every week for months at a time. And it probably leads to Hogan and Savage vs the entire nWo in a cage match.
ReplyDeleteCheck out the first, and maybe only, nWo 2000 promo from the Thunder after the reveal. Granted, Bret's concussed at the time, but he just comes off as awkward. He just doesn't have the charisma or quick whit, Nash is probably a better choice as leader if Hogan isn't an option.
ReplyDeleteNash and Hall were sort of laid back cool heels. Black t-shirts and sunglasses, snide remarks...while Flair's the loud, flashy guy in the robes...he just doesn't fit unless he changes his image like Hogan did.
ReplyDeleteI'm not sure. Think he sees the money in it and insists on becoming the top NWO guy.
ReplyDeleteThink if the NWO is firing on all cylinders he'd recognize there's more money in drawing it out, so he ends up as the lead heel and not much changes.
If he's not involved, I bet the whole thing is over by starrcade 96. They build to Hogan v Nash and he goes over with the big boot
ReplyDeleteProbably so
ReplyDeleteDude, that's a terrifying prospect, but I bet you're right. They just re-hash the Hogan/Savage vs. Dungeon cage match from the '96 Uncensored. Megapowers plow through the whole nWo and it's done
ReplyDeleteHey Princess - check out Hulk Hogan vs. Don Murraco from MSG - their first meeting - and tell me if it is as good as I think it is. They had other matches which weren't that good, but that April 1985 match had Hogan doing mat work. Maybe it isn't that good, but it had a flow and Hogan escaping the tombstone was neat
ReplyDeleteThis must've been done at the end of a marathon taping. TONS of empty seats throughout the arena. The piped in crowd noise really got on my nerves watching it. I didn't really care for this match, aside from the nice nostalgia of it. It's sad that two of the guys involved (Perfect and Bossman) are dead.
ReplyDeleteWCW saves $12,037,872 on No. 1 Black hair dye.
ReplyDeleteCanadians don't exactly fit the 'cool' bill.
ReplyDeleteSlightly off the topic here, but remember when Jay Leno joined DDP and went up against the nWo?
ReplyDeleteWell, I would have had the nWo hype a new member to the group for a month to join them to vanquish Leno.
The secret fourth member?
Dave fuckin' Letterman.
Then in the undercard you have Paul Shaffer vs. Kevin Eubanks, just to cater to the workrate freaks.
I'm impressed with what they did here. This was 95% an AWA match with a little Memphis thrown in.
ReplyDeleteMore proof that shorter matches need not be boring.
And that all the matches on the card don't need to be wrestled in the same "WWE style."
ReplyDeleteThey just won't let that one go, which I find frustrating as a viewer. I have no problem with the "WWE Main Event" style. It's a solid formula that can be tweaked to the strengths of individual performers, while also giving a comfortable "frame of reference" as it were.
ReplyDeleteBut their strict adherence to it has led to a generation of workers who are either afraid or unwilling to go out and put on the best match possible.
I remember hearing Austin criticize some of the young guy for complaining about a lack of time to build matches. It's your job to make your time the most entertaining.
Honestly, I think some of them are completely ignorant of the concept of going out and leaving it in the ring. All of them have been convinced that there's something just down the road that they need to "save up for".
Every time you work you should be shooting for "match of the night", especially in this era devoid of dedicated jobbers. (Some guys job frequently, but are not treated like jobbers. The modern version of a jobber is just never being on TV.)
Fun match, I actually enjoy how they kept it really scientific and the tombstone escape was pretty clever.
ReplyDeleteBlame the death of the indy territories. Michaels is a product of SW Texas, AWA and Memphis. Hennig is an AWA product. They probably called this match on the fly because two guys with 20+ years collective experience by this point in 1991 could do that for a 10-12 minute spot.
ReplyDeleteI wonder if the mid card guys realize that, in general, wrestling the WWE style is making them more or less forgettable and/or interchangeable in the eyes of many fans. I mean, Kofi has a crap ton of 3+ star matches but I'd be hard pressed to pick out more than 1 or 2 that are especially memorable.
ReplyDeleteNo option for "Hogan dresses in black for a year and hangs out in the rafters, getting himself crazy over, and then beats Sting for the title at Starrcade 1997"? :)
ReplyDeleteIn all seriousness, as others have said, Hogan's turn is what really took the NWO storyline to another level. I doubt WCW would just pay him to go away since a) I'm not sure they legally could, or b) how the hell would Bischoff explain that to the Turner higher-ups? "Hey, remember the wrestling megastar I begged you to pay a fortune to in order to turn the company around two years ago? Well, now we need to keep him off TV in order to build another angle because he'll ruin it. Thanks!"
You also need Hogan in the angle to explain Sting's turn, as in Sting would claim that WCW turned its back on him in favour of Hogan after all of Sting's hard work carrying the company. It wouldn't have worked as well from the 'outsider' perspective since with Hogan turning, it was subtly hinted that the NWO invasion really began two years earlier.
The problem with Austin's criticism is that, in today's WWE, two midcarders who bust their asses in a five-minute match are perhaps more likely to get punished for it backstage (for not 'knowing their roles') than be rewarded.
ReplyDeleteI think the problem is you're unlikely to have two guys in the ring at the same time who know how to have a proper match in less than 15 minutes. One guy would go off script and it'd be Goldberg/Regal ugliness.
ReplyDeleteMichaels probably had this match a hundred times with Rose and/or Somers.
ReplyDeleteAgreed. Hogan was the best option for sure, but I think Randy Savage presents an interesting possibility too
ReplyDeleteI totally agree. Nash would have positioned himself ahead of Bret. He would have won over Bischoff far more easily than Hart. Yet another reason it HAD to be Hogan in order to work out the way it did. He is the only guy who can position himself better than Nash at that point. No one else had the manipulation or political stroke, especially with Bischoff
ReplyDeleteWithout the crazy Hogan character, I think Nash/Hall/Syxx/etc end up getting too over as "cool heels" and default into being faces, especially up against the old guard of WCW, like Luger, Sting, and the Horsemen.
ReplyDeleteYeah, Hogan was always gonna end up on board once the angle got hot. Whether it was Bash at the Beach or not. First time the fans shit on his Hulkamania act in favor of the cool new heels, he would have been jumping on board and calling it his idea anyway
ReplyDeleteOwen made a pretty bad ass black separatist though.
ReplyDeletejk