Morning BoD. The original idea I had for this "What If" topic was pretty big pictured. It evolved into a series of 3 smaller related questions. Lucky you! Feel free to weigh in on all of them or none of them.
This is pretty open ended, so Ill keep it short and leave the dicussion up to you. Go in any direction you want.
WWE buying out WCW was a paradigm changing moment for the entire wrestling industry. The follow up and logic behind reestablishing WCW has always mystified and interested me. I'm sure we are all familiar with the reports that the original plan was for WCW to become a separate entity/brand from the WWF. They would have toured separately, had its own tv timeslot, ran their own ppvs, etc. Apparently, 1 moment changed all that...
What if Buff Bagwell vs Booker T on Raw (July 2, 2001) was a 4 star match, with legit crowd heat? Apparently the crowd apathy, along with Buffs lackluster skills was a huge reason Vince soured on this entire idea. Buff was never seen on WWE TV again.
Things to consider:
- WCW wrestlers had only been appearing on WWE TV since May 28. Lance Storm, Hugh Morris, then Booker T were the first 3 to appear, if memory serves me correctly. Should WWE have spent more time building these guys up as legit threats?
- How damaged was the WCW brand at this point?
- How damaged was the WCW brand at this point?
- Was the idea of a separate WCW brand dead on arrival without big stars headlining it? Could Vince have established WCW without them? What if Vince shells out the multimillions to bring in the Goldbergs, Nashs, etc.? Would WCW still be a viable brand to this day? Would these guys have given the initial WCW a strong enough reintroduction where it would have gotten the momentum it needed to become a sustainable long term brand?
- Was Vinces ego the real reason a WCW brand never stood a chance at being reestablished? Was Vince always intent on "crushing WCW in kayfabe" that no situation could have prevented this? If you could ask Vince one question while he was on sodium thiopental (truth serum), what would it be? This would be in my top 5.
- Was Vinces ego the real reason a WCW brand never stood a chance at being reestablished? Was Vince always intent on "crushing WCW in kayfabe" that no situation could have prevented this? If you could ask Vince one question while he was on sodium thiopental (truth serum), what would it be? This would be in my top 5.
This is pretty open ended, so Ill keep it short and leave the dicussion up to you. Go in any direction you want.
Rebooking the invasion angle? no.
ReplyDeleteI think Buff showed up once more in a backstage brawl segment on the next Smackdown before they axed him.
ReplyDeleteI'd argue it's not a rebook as in "should Austin shouldn't have led WCW, etc" as opposed to a question about the whole idea of establishing a separate brand.
ReplyDeleteThey could have made millions with a Goldberg/Austin feud.
ReplyDeleteWhat if Daniel Bryan was born 12 years earlier and was in WCW. Would he have been the face of the Invasion angle? If so, how would it have gone? Would Hugh Morris taken his "Yes" chants? Would HHH, even with the blown quad, felt the need to show up Bryan at every opportunity? Also, with Bryan in WCW would Bret Hart been able to wrestle him and WCW not screw up when Bret went to WCW? OR if Bryan was Shawn Michaels, would the Montreal Screwjob go down?
ReplyDeleteNo. Austin was beat up and cranky. Goldberg was content to sit and do nothing and make millions for it.
ReplyDeleteBuss wasn't to blame so much as Obama was. Thanks Obama!
ReplyDeleteBetter ? - what if they put out different wrestlers?
ReplyDeleteThey put 2 perceived midcarders out there. You all don't understand, Vince never wanted WCW to work as a brand.
(Non-kayfabe) Putting Buff in the WCW Title Match was Mistake #1. If he's the "second-best" guy you could get, then let WCW fade away if you're not willing to "loan" them some decent talent, even on a short term basis.
ReplyDelete(Kayfabe) Hell, play it as Vince's shot at "stealing" the WCW title, and sabotaging the WCW brand and Shane's attempted revival before any "Invasion" could get traction.
Austin was beat up and cranky the next year. 2001 he was pretty great and engaged. Well, he was beat up. he was always beat up.
ReplyDeleteActually, I'm sure most of us do realize that, even if only after the fact.
ReplyDeleteBut any of these "What Ifs" assume that the people involved aren't petty, jealous idiots who consider revenge and dick-waving a valid reason to sabotage a potential bank vault angle.
Right. Austin was picky on who he was working with at that point and the last thing he wanted was to work with someone who was as sloppy as Goldberg was.
ReplyDelete2001 Austin was getting dropped on his head about once/twice a week by Angle and Benoit (pre-injury)...
ReplyDeleteAustin was never dumb and would never turn down a big payday. Him vs. Goldberg is the biggest of paydays. I'd wager he'd figure out a way to do it.
ReplyDeleteI guess that's my question at its core...we all assume Vinces ego played a massive part in destroying it. But did it really? Was the WCW brand fucker at that point where he got all he could outta it? Would it have even mattered if he got the big stars to come in. You'd think the novelty of just seeing Buff vs Booker T would be enough to get some crowd reaction...the apathy and hostility of the crowd kinda tells you alot
ReplyDeleteSimple: Goldberg doesn't get to kick him in the head.
ReplyDeleteyup, that's a pretty good start.
ReplyDeleteHe should probably plan out the match DDP style with Goldberg, too, since it was what got the best out of him.
Buff, despite what he said, was definitely NOT the stuff. Unless by "stuff" you mean full of the "steeroids". Booker against someone who COULD match him in the ring has a chance... I'm trying to remember the talent scenario in WWF at the time.
ReplyDeletethey were getting a little thin. Jericho might have made the most sense- he had a tie to WCW and could have used the boost.
ReplyDeleteI'm actually getting to that off my post above... He's out for an obvious (maybe forgotten) reason.
ReplyDeleteYeah. I'm 100% certain that Austn would have gone for the pay days for it. There would have been at least 3 big pay days involved, if not more ( Big match at wrestlemania, 2 rematches after)
ReplyDeletePlaying off of this, the best options for Booker are:
ReplyDeleteBenoit: No, stuck in the main event/injured.
Jericho: See Benoit, minus injury.
Flair: No, based on the last Nitro match.
DDP: Maybe? It gets him out of the horrific "Stalker" angle, and he had enough in the tank...
Mike Awesome: Nah, but as a "mercenary" for Vince, maybe he could pop in later... Maybe.
Regal: Tempting... but his style might not help Booker shine.
That's going off who did join the WWF by the end of the year. And based on who joined afterward... I'm not too comfortable using any of them... unless Goldberg's coming in to squish Booker and take the WCW title as an open challenge to ANYONE, any organization, to pry it off his carcass.
Yea, I agree that Booker T vs someone else would have worked better in that match. I guess my bigger picture question is would it have even mattered? Was WCW so fucked at that point that a Booker T vs HBK 4 star match would have just delayed the inevitable sitting the bed by a new WCW brand? People always say the WCW brand couldn't be salvaged at that point, but is that revisionist history since we know how it played out?
ReplyDeleteSmackdown would have been re-branded WCW Nitro plain and simple, it would be no different than they way they branded the WWECW.
ReplyDeleteAnother question could be asked, "What if the WWECW PPV that bombed, actually did a good buyrate?"
Just got a reply from Caliber...I know you're lurking out there Caliber, come talk to your old buddies.
ReplyDeleteWritten in a CRZ raw recap the following day:
ReplyDelete"Is it too early to throw in the towel on WCW? I mean, all tonight did was remind me how much I was dreading watching WCW in its dying days, for crying out loud!
I guess in hindsight we can all say "Gee! Putting on a WCW match in front of a WWF crowd - and we would actually have to WONDER why they would be BORED and BOO?"
It was over before it began.
Just shooting off the hip here... I think WCW still had enough of a fanbase INDEPENDENT of the WWF to pull in decent ratings. Hell, put them on Saturday Night, replacing whatever the 2nd C-Show was at the time (Velocity?)
ReplyDeleteThe nod to tradition, plus a product more in line with "classic" WCW, might have kept a large chunk of the fans who "vanished" between the death of WCW and the end of the Invasion.
Now, is such a WCW viable long-term? Probably not, but by at least showing a little respect to your fallen competition, you don't alienate their fanbase to the point they walk away from ALL wrestling.
But that's not Vince's style... never has been... and never will be. Not him nor any of his successors.
If Buff and Booker put on a helluva match, I figure the crowd still doesn't give a crap. That night, they came to see RAW, not WCW, and I'm sure that was where the disappointment was. I would wager that most fans in attendance were strictly WWF fans, and never saw a minute of WCW television. That still holds true today. Not many WWE fans have watched an indy fed show on the dish or cable, and screw TNA. The IWC is a very vocal minority when it comes to fans. Anyway, my point is that the match still gets booed out of the building no matter how good it is. Buff's attitude doesn't change, and he still gets shitcanned. If Vince had gone through with the re-branding of WWFWCW, he would never want it to take the focus away from his baby. Shane probably would have been given the reigns, but all susbsequent signings would have had to have gone through Vince, I imagine. I see the possibility of Smackdown becoming the WCW show (as it was rumored to be, back in the day), and multiple crossovers. Basically, it becomes the brand split that really did happen. And how did that work out? Basically, the product you're looking at now, in my opinion, is the product we would still have today.
ReplyDeleteAs for the question for Vince: what's the deal with Randy Savage?
I don't disagree. It was still a viable wrestling company for decades, I can't reconcile that there was nothing Vince could have done to prop to up a little more. Whether he really wanted to or saw value in it then becomes the question.
ReplyDeleteBuff got a massive pop on the simulcast RAW when Vince was asking who he should keep/fire that is probably why he was in that match... and Booker was the WCW champion at the time so I don't see how that makes him a midcarder.
ReplyDeleteA reply to what? This question?
ReplyDeleteNope. I asked who his wwe doppelganger was in that other thread. Funny reply by him actually
ReplyDeleteNitro in its last months was doing ratings similar to what RAW does now (if not a touch higher) there was clearly a market if it was handled properly.
ReplyDeleteHHH?
ReplyDeleteI think they would have gone the ECW route; Smackdown became Nitro with McMahon slowly changing the product to what he wants it to be. (With every WCW wrestler jobbing to a WWE wrestler in the process.)
ReplyDeleteNot the same as today though
ReplyDeleteBret Hart
ReplyDeleteThe problem was they put that match on last so the crowd wasn't in the mood to watch. If they cared the would have put it on FIRST. Or did an invasion angle where WCW took over a whole show to gauge a response.
ReplyDeleteYea. As long as they kept them separated and WCW strong for a year, they can build to a big brand vs brand payoff, then Vince can feel free to shit on it however he sees fit
ReplyDeleteThat was McMahon's biggest fuck up to me. He could have quietly bought it, sought out a deal and kept it on the air. But MO he wanted to be on TV and brag about it.
ReplyDeleteBy owning it on the low and making fake competition it doesn't matter who watches what show, he still wins.
That makes sense actually. Someone who is good at what he does and a decent person, thinks he is the best, but is not as big a deal or as good as he thinks he is... and business got better after he left... probably thinks he got screwed like Bret also.
ReplyDeleteI took his Main Event spot....or at least his upper midcard spot.
ReplyDeleteObama was also responsible for the hole in the ozone and your first marriage failing.
ReplyDeleteBoth marriages... though I appreciate the sensitivity.
ReplyDeleteHe is a DIRTY ROTTEN BASTARD!
Def agree. That's why I always wonder if it's revisionist history when people say "WCW was shit at that time, they couldn't do much with it." It was still drawing around 3 in ratings IIRC so someone was watching. They also had a ton of history to draw from
ReplyDeleteSocialist homewrecking swine..
ReplyDeleteHim. not you.
Read his reply. It's not bad. Hi Caliber, I know you're reading this.
ReplyDeleteI was about to take offense to that... I am more of a communist than a socialist!
ReplyDeleteI blame Jesus
ReplyDeleteDon't you think that is a little offensive and insensitive?
ReplyDeleteEven if the Turner Networks didn't want to keep it. (Which was stupid as it drew solid ratings) There had to be a network somewhere that would have picked up just based off the ratings alone.
ReplyDeleteWhen did this turn into the Blog of Political Correctness.
ReplyDelete*saying this as I look at the Spanish HR chick with the fatty bend over to water her plants*
The term chick is demeaning to women... and I believe in treating women with the utmost respect!
ReplyDeletehttp://www.twnpnews.com/information/WCW/wcwnitro.shtml
ReplyDeleteOther than the final Nitro, they drew around 2.0 to 2.5 in 2001... and were under 3.0 more often than they hit/beat that mark in 2000.
(WARNING! ALIEN PARALLAX IMPOSTER POSTING! WARNING!)
ReplyDeleteTrue, but how did those numbers compare with shows in other timeslots. What if FSN got them instead of picking up TNA years later?
ReplyDelete:: Pulls off flesh mask thing to reveal that douche bag NPP wannabe Shough :: IT WAS ME IT WAS ME ALL ALONG!
ReplyDeleteOH SON OF A BITCH!
ReplyDeleteToo bad JR isn't here to express his outrage... "DAMN IT DAMN IT! THAT SON OF A BITCH HAS SCREWED PARALLAX!!!"
ReplyDeleteWas it on last? I thought it went on mid-show, like the end of the first hour/beginning of the second...
ReplyDeleteYour lying ass should put some ointment on the 2nd and 3rd burns on your legs from your pants catching on fire.
ReplyDeleteI recall it being last with Arn Anderson on commentary.
ReplyDeleteYou have no idea how painful it was for me to even JOKE about thinking of women as... people. :: Shudders ::
ReplyDeleteIs that son of a bitch a married woman?
ReplyDeleteLOL. Good job
ReplyDeleteThe question makes no sense because it assumes that Buff Bagwell is capable of putting on a 4-star match with anyone.
ReplyDeleteWho were truly the main eventers in WCW at the time? Booker T was the World champion, Jarrett was towards the top, Scott Steiner was around, DDP was hanging out. That's the problem right there - none of those guys were considered by the fan base to be on the level of Austin/Rock/Angle - hence going head to head against the WWF was doomed to fail unless the WCW started picking up a lot of clean wins over the WWF guys.
I like the idea of buying WCW and, rather than going immediately into a head-to-head confrontation with the WWF, giving them one or two of the syndicated time slots, running TV tapings in smaller venues, and building WCW up wholly independently of the WWF. Once you get some ratings (or rather, IF) and build up some legitimate stars, you can start the slow creep of challenging the WWF. But, as has been mentioned several times before, to make this legitimate in the fans' eyes, the WCW guys would have to win. A LOT. As in Austin laying down clean to Booker. And that would likely never happen.
Yeah, I remember Arn and Hudson being the broadcast team... Hudson wasn't too bad in late WCW (Then again, being between Schiavone and Madden would make almost anyone look good...), Arn was just not good. And that made me sad.
ReplyDeleteTact and Political correctness are right up there with Hummus and Sherbert in the "overrated category"
ReplyDeleteGood in very specific instances, useless when overused.
ReplyDeleteHummus is one of my favorite foods
ReplyDeleteYea. It was last
ReplyDeleteArn's commentary is great when it's short and to the point.
ReplyDeleteGarlic hummus is like crack.
ReplyDeleteRoasted red pepper may actually CONTAIN crack
ReplyDeleteArn as a wrestler/manager: Great
ReplyDeleteArn as an announcer/interviewer: Bleh. What makes him work in the first two roles fails in the last two... and he doesn't have that "alternate" gear/mindset to cross over. IMO.
There was no one they had signed that would have fit the category of what they were trying to do. The best match to put on would have been Goldberg vs.Giant/Big Show so that people could see him display power.
ReplyDeletehttp://deadspin.com/rob-ford-denies-eating-pussy-during-live-televised-p-1464353838
ReplyDeleteHoly shit. Just play the video, if you're NOT at work. Or if your work doesn't give a shit.
I wish TNA and RoH would just merge and get it over with.
ReplyDeleteBrock vs taker is gonna be the shit
ReplyDeleteSo this Brock/Taker WM thing is real, huh?
ReplyDeleteGuess we are not getting Taker/Cena??Fuck fuck. I'm more intrigued by Hogan/Cena then the Cena/HHH payoff I'm fearing.
To help Farva out: Original source material:
ReplyDelete>>Vince McMahon was said to be noticeably angry at the way the WCW main event match went down on Raw last night. From the work in the ring to the announcing, various sources told me that Vince was not pleased with the segment at all. One person said, "He absolutely hated it". The feeling backstage among pretty much everyone was that they know that the segment bombed and that they know that they have work to do with the WCW angle if they are going to make it sellable to the public.<<
>>There was a lot of concern among WWF management about Buff Bagwell's performance last night. The consensus is that he needs to adjust his style quickly to work the "WWF way".<<
>>Sources tell 1Wrestling.com that WWF officials are irate at some of the things that happened in the last week involving Buff Bagwell and others. Our sources say Bagwell was involved in a fight with Shane Helms last week at the WWF training center that is said to have started when Bagwell told Helms he would never be a big star (like Buff) because he was too small. Our sources say Bagwell slapped Helms and said he didn't have the balls to do anything about it. Punches were thrown, and Bagwell walked away with a cut that required 12 stitches.<<
>>Bagwell also has heat, according to our sources, because his mother made several calls to the WWF talent office complaining about his travel arrangements.<<
>>Another altercation is said to have broken out at the training center between Mark Jindrak and Hugh Morrus. Sources say the two men had a verbal exchange after a botched Jindrak spot at the training center and had to be separated.<<
>>Steve Austin's back continues to hurt him badly. After doing the beat down spot on Booker and Bagwell, he was telling people backstage that his back was hurting worse than before. I wouldn't expect him to do much physically tonight on Smackdown, but then again, a lot of people said he wouldn't do anything last night and he did. Austin is a tough guy, no doubt.<<
SEE I TOLD YOU AUSTIN WAS INJURED.
And Buff was, as always, a douche.
He was actually trying to do that, even discussing with other networks that wanted to show WCW Nitro (I think FOX), but CBS/Viacom's contract with WWE said that they were not allowed to produce shows for other networks. Its why WCW was under the name WCW, Inc. because they had a loop hole that it was a different company. Tickets for Nitro tapings were even sold.
ReplyDeleteBy the time WCW showed up on WWE TV, WWE knew that WCW was not going to be able to have their own show without rebranding an existing show, and those existing WWE shows (Raw/Smackdown) were doing too good to change them to WCW.
It would be intriguing to have Cena/Undertaker at WrestleMania for the World title.
ReplyDeleteThat's a WWF-style match. I'm talking about presenting WCW, for the short term, as a "different" promotion. Let the fans argue or agree on Austin vs Booker... but build Booker up slowly. Build WCW up slowly.
ReplyDeleteLet it look like Vince considers WCW no more than a "midcard" level act, while he manages to build Booker (and the WCW title) up through good, solid wins over mid/ upper-mid level talents.
That's why I keep Jericho and Benoit out of WCW for now. However, I DO want to try to run a "best of three/five" series between Booker and Benoit, maybe as a "qualifier" for the eventual Title Unification.
Long term, I do not see any way to keep WCW running alongside WWF for more than a year/18 months. BUT, I give them a way better send off than they got from Vince, and hopefully keep at least part of that fanbase around.
Risking the long-term health of your golden goose for a 2.7 doesn't seem like a wise move. Couldn't they have found a non-wrestling role on TV for Cena while he fully recovered? And just imagine if he ends up missing Wrestlemania because of this decision to rush him back?
ReplyDeleteMan, I really couldn't be less interested in Lesnar/Taker.
ReplyDeleteThe end result has absolutely zero doubt. I mean, from a kayfabe perspective, Brock Lesnar has already been beaten several times so it's not like he's some unstoppable monster, and from a non-kayfabe perspective everyone knows that Lesnar doesn't get to end the streak. And Lesnar isn't popular in the way that HBK/HHH/Punk were where the crowd might fool themselves into thinking their guy is gonna go over.
Plus the match quality probably won't be very good as both guys need to work with someone smaller who can bump for them at this point.
And lastly that means that we don't get Punk-Lesnar 2, which A) Has a great storyline that they've been building to all year, and B) We know would be an insanely good match.
Plus Lesnar is used AGAIN to put over another guy that doesn't need the win. It's amazing how Punk— the guy who they're counting on to draw fans week to week on TV and house shows— is the only one who Brock gets to beat without dropping a loss too. Just ridiculous.
Ha. Man you hate this question. I'm not disagreeing with any of this, especially your last 2 assertions.
ReplyDeleteI disagree that the WCW brand was shit though. It was still drawing in the upper 2 low 3s IIRC when it was cancelled. Had a ton of lineage and history to draw from. Yea, Buff vs Booker T was never gonna be the headlining match for ANYTHING that drew, but I don't buy that there was 0 value in a WCW product if it was done correctly
That sucks about Max (Mickey Keegan). Dude missed his calling as he should have been brought up a couple of years ago. He can go in the ring, knows how to work and "gets it". I always thought he would have done well in a tag team. Maybe ROH can use him. Tagging with Todd Hanson, one of his old Chaotic Wrestling buddies, would be tremendously entertaining and quality with some of ROH's guys. They're both legit.
ReplyDeleteWasn't Show signed to the WWE at this point?
ReplyDeleteGoldberg shows up, Show confronts him, saying he's not on his level. Goldberg challenges him and beats him with the Jackhammer. Now Goldberg (WCW's most popular wrestler has a win over a WWE guy) and McMahon gets to rub one off to the visuals of all of Goldbergs power displays.
Agreed. I don't think Cena/Taker would even need a title to draw but that would give it another dimension. It's by far the biggest match they could put on, hence they should do it
ReplyDeleteWCW was a dead brand. As my close personal friend Justin Shapiro wrote on 7/3/2001
ReplyDelete"That was so uncomfortable to watch. I felt so bad for those involved, yet I also felt so mad because it sucked. Austin and Angle were the biggest babyfaces ever for ending that. I hated the crowd for being such dickheads, but I can't blame them for being upset. It was just such a disaster. The set-up made WCW look sufficiently big league, until of course they went and had that miserable match with the frighteningly hateful crowd response. I was thinking that maybe just maybe the crowd would get drawn into a good match, but oh wait, Buff totally sucks. Booker vs. Lance Storm would've almost certainly been a good match, but you know, I think the crowd was so opposed to WCW commandeering (uhhh sp?) their main event that nothing was going to change their mind that "This Match Sucks" and "You Both Suck.""
Everything did suck. No WWF fan was going to cheer WCW. Top heels Austin and Angle were over huge as faces for kicking Booker and Buff's ass.
It'll be Taker's worst and least intriguing streak match since Mark Henry.
ReplyDelete"John Cena Still Hurting Badly?
ReplyDeleteReports from the recent European tour have stated that Cena was in a lot
of pain after his matches. Cena came back from his injury before he was
completely healed.
Credit Dave Meltzer, Wrestling Observer Newsletter"
Clearly his opponents have been using kryptonite kneepads
Well yea. The follow up was fucking horrendous. It didn't have to be. I don't want to get into re booking the invasion because the way the did it, NOTHING was gonna make it look good.
ReplyDeleteIntroducing them the way he did was always a mistake. I wish Vince would have kept them separate for a year. If they could have gotten a timeslot, run a separate brand for a year (fuck, even throw them on Smackdown vs jobbers and move the bigg wwe guys from smackdown to Raw) shell out some money for 1 star who can headline, build to a wwe/wcw blowoff then shit on it how he sees fit.
That sounds like sour grapes because you fantasy booked him against someone else. The first hhh match sucked. So anything will top that. IMO lesnar is the most interesting character in-the wwe and the best "monster heel" to come along ever. Not to mention he's a phenomenal worker. He's arguably had the Moty the last two years, and theres no reason to think that this match won't be an amazing near 5 stars brutal war. In fact theirs zero reason to think a taker vs cena match would be higher quality. As good as cena is lesnar is probably even better and has a genuine larger than life aura that will make this match feel very special.
ReplyDeleteTakers not jobbing to anyone at mania, including cena. So to act like thats the only way to add drama to the result is crazy.
I thought Spinal Stenosis (thinning of the spine) is what put Edge out of wrestling/ No organization would allow him to wrestle. One bad bump and he's in a wheelchair for the rest of his life.
ReplyDelete'What if Buff Bagwell vs Booker T on Raw (July 2, 2001) was a 4 star match, with legit crowd heat?'
ReplyDelete...it wasn't?! what match were YOU watching?!
i always like to say that technically buff was a wwf main eventer
ReplyDelete'cause ever time he wrestled in wwf, it was in the main event
Cena/Brock II would work for 'mania. Kill two birds with one stone by having Brock come back, and "injure" Cena. That way Cena gets time off and reestablishes Brock as a monster.
ReplyDeleteI'll delve into it when i get back from the gym. Love me a good in depth meltzer read
ReplyDeleteI could actually see this working, though oddly it would be as Sinclair buying out TNA for the Spike TV slot and cutting overhead like crazy, only retaining the traditional "ROH guys" and people who fit that mold.
ReplyDeleteTNA fans would never live that down, though. Getting bought out by ROH.
"Reports from the recent European tour have stated that Cena was in a lot of pain after his matches."
ReplyDeleteNot as much as I would be if I had to watch those matches.
Ok, clearly not entirely true, and also a cheap shot. But, I just couldn't resist.
I've never followed comics closely, but aren't there many different kinds of kryptonite? Can't we find one that would turn him heel, a la Superman III? Or, maybe one that would make him less annoying?
ReplyDeleteIf Cena had any decency he would be a lot worse in the ring than he is so it would be much easier to dislike him...
ReplyDeleteI know there were at one time... I think that got retconned out though.
ReplyDeleteDude, all three Lesnar-HHH matches were pretty bad. The Mania one had fans sitting on their hands for 20 minutes, and the third one was twenty minutes of "HHH hits Lesnar, Lesnar begs for mercy, and finally Heyman helps Lesnar win". Dude had 3 shitty PPV matches in a row.
ReplyDeleteNow that said, yes Lesnar is an awesome worker but there's an obvious style clash there. Taker's best Mania matches the last few years have involved opponents like HBK, Edge, and Punk pinballing for him. Lesnar's two great matches in the comeback have involved Punk and Cena pinballing for him and taking his insane high impact offense. I mean, don't you see a clash there? Whose going to bump for who? The best case scenario is the matches resemble HHH-Taker, where Taker lays around and takes a ton of chair shots. The difference there is AT LEAST those matches had the feeling that "Maybe Triple H goes over", which the Lesnar match will not have. And I know you're saying "Taker will never lose" and that maybe true, but the Taker matches still get people to think that he ha a chance to lose.
People bought HBK having a chance to win, and they bought HHH as havinga chance to win in a way they absolutely will not buy Lesnar as havinga chance to win. Why? Well aside from the smark knowledge that "Yeah, Taker might job to the owner of the company or his best friend", kayfabe-wise both guys are WAYYYY bigger deals to the average WWE fan than Brock Lesnar. WWE booking has already defined down Brock Lesnar. He's not an unstoppable monster, he's a guy who has lost half his matches already.
I mean when Brock comes back and Heyman is all like "Now it's Over! Brock lesnar is going to end the streak!" who the fuck is gonna buy that? Brock's been beaten several times, and plus his character just doesn't give a shit about anything. Storyline-wise, how do you even make it seem like Brock Lesnar gives a shit about the Streak? It all just feels liek a waste of time.
And lastly, as far as the Cena-Taker thing, that's so much more intriguing for several reasons. Firstly, Cena has way more kayfabe credibility than Brock. The mainstream wrestling fan buys him as a bigger threat than Brock, plain and simple. Secondly, as much as you say there's NO WAY the streak ever ends, Cena's the one guy left who fans (mainstream and "smarks") will absolutely buy as a threat. He's the face of the company, the biggest star of the era, there's the looming heel turn possibility, there's the chance that it's Taker's last match and Cena is who he wants to put over— lots of reasons why Cena could go over. In a Lesnar/Taker match, the nearfalls have no real heat. In a Cena-Taker match, people are shitting their pants when Cena hits that second AA.
I'd be ok with not seeing Brock in the WWE again...unless they find some way to make better use of him. I'm really not much in favor of part timers going over full time guys who are supposed to be main eventers...doesn't make a lick of sense to me.
ReplyDeleteWhile I can understand the "technical" reason of Lesnar arguably being a better wrestler than Cena, in terms of story, Cena/Taker is much more interesting - Lesnar may be able to do cooler moves and spots, but Cena's the guy with the more believable chance of winning, meaning that any pin-attempts (and, especially, those after a big finisher) will be more anxiety-inducing.
ReplyDeleteIMO, Lesnar hitting the "F5" and going for the cover won't be as exciting as Cena hitting the "AA" and going for the cover; likewise, Lesnar could easily tap to the "Hell's Gate", whereas Cena tapping is far less believable in canon.
I know, I know. He can go, and usually comes up big with good to great matches on PPVs. I just really couldn't leave that one on the tee. But christ...I never, ever need to see that damn 5 knuckle shuffle - or any of the similar moves, including those that spawned it - again.
ReplyDeleteI suppose that makes sense.
ReplyDeleteRed Kryptonite.
ReplyDeleteI think the only way we'll see that is when 'Taker decides to quit for good. Otherwise, the streak will go on forever...and frankly, I'd be ok with his bowing out with it intact. But, wrestling doesn't tend to work that way.
ReplyDeleteSo, looking at the current TNA roster, who gets cut in that scenario?
ReplyDeleteOh I agree with you... it pisses me off that he has to have redeeming qualities so I can't outright hate him like some past top guys... he needs to cut out the "being a good person" shit also. Seriously go fuck some married women or something that always gets people to hate you (well except on the BoD where you can do that and still be the #1 draw).
ReplyDeletePlease dear GOD stay in ROH Eddie/Davey/Roddy
ReplyDeleteLearn from Kenny King's example
There we go! Someone should *totally* make a "Cena needs RED KRYPTONITE" sign for the next PPV or TV taping.
ReplyDeleteDude. People hate you. They just troll you so you keep providing entertaining commentary. I thought you knew?
ReplyDelete;-)
Yeah, I come down somewhere in the middle with Cean. The fist time I saw a "If Cena wins, we RIOT!" sign, I laughed for a good 5 minutes. But then he goes and poses in front of ringside Cena haters after a PPV win with a smile on his face. How do you not like/respect that?
How does cena have a more believable chance of winning when we both know undertaker is winning at mania 100%. Undertaker isn't jobbing to anyone. To me that 2nd paragraph doesn't make a lot of sense.
ReplyDeleteLesnar tapping to Hell's Gate is almost definitely the finish. Lesnar's already been pinned twice, so for it to be a WRESTLEMANIA MOMENT Taker will do what nobody has been able to do yet, which is tap out the former UFC champ.
ReplyDeleteBrock taps, I'd bet anything on that finish.
1. You don't say? I would guess WWE pushed him to rush back.
ReplyDeleteWhat is this "gym" you speak of?
ReplyDeleteYou are saying that Taker is winning at Mania 100%. The average fan, whether they mainstream or hardcore smarks, will absolutely believe that Cena has a chance to end the streak. It's John cena dude. There are obvious reasons why he could be booked to end the streak while Lesnar has no chance.
ReplyDeleteSo that said, his second paragraph makes lots of sense. Cena's nearfalls would be exciting, because the crowd buys into Cena as a threat. Lesnar's near falls would not be exciting.
I have honestly never heard anything negative about him as a person... a friend of mine used to work in a mall he frequented in MA and said he was a super nice guy... not to mention all the charity and shit he has done. Apparently he wanted all of his Make A Wish stuff to not be advertised as well (so it wouldn't seem like he was doing it for the wrong reason) but MAW actually wanted to start promoting it.
ReplyDeleteAnd even if the first paragraph is true that STILL makes me the draw.
Brock gets pissed half way through and puts in a legit kimura and 'Taker shoot taps out
ReplyDeleteWTF happened to King anyway?
ReplyDeleteIf tna offers them more money, it's a good move.
ReplyDeleteVince is currently now buying fetuses so he can put their stem cells into Cenas elbow.
ReplyDeleteTrue, as in you are the X-Pac of the BoD.
ReplyDeleteYeah, I can't find a reason to hate him either. My dislike for his character is generally intact. His taking the Cesaro Swing would have helped, but whatcha gonna do when the...whoops. Dafuq is Hogan doing invading my thoughts? Have I mentioned my senior high school class voted me the next Hulk Hogan? I thought that was cool at one point. Now I consider it to be deep insult.
Train of thought derailed....film at 11p.
He's been off of TV lately... but he could always pop back into the X-Division title picture at any time.
ReplyDeleteLesnar-Taker lost 80% of its potential at Extreme Rules 2012. The rest has been drained away by HHH and those three bleh matches.
ReplyDeleteDoesn't he have to beat the champ before he can get back in the title hunt?
ReplyDeleteWait wrong company...
Knux
ReplyDeleteGarrett
Jay Bradley
Chavo
Rob Terry
Rockstar Spud
Sam Shaw
Wes Brisco
Zema Ion
Zema's been gone, hasn't he?
ReplyDeleteBut I have no complaints about that list.
Ot kills any WWE interest, burns a bridge, and who knows if TNA will even honor those contracts.
ReplyDeleteBad move
He is on the roster page
ReplyDeleteThe main stream audience will absolutely buy lesnar as a threat-to beat undertaker. Kayfabe credibility is oozing out of lesnar. He's a special attraction--performer and the wwe has made it clear that their above the day to day roster.
ReplyDeleteAlso lesnar can definitely bump around the ring and undertaker works once a year, I'm sure he can bust taking some crazy bumps for mania. Your concerns about the match would be the same if cena was-involved. What made that cena vs lesnar match great was the brutal violence and unique pacing. Cena was great but he wasn't exactly bumping around like 1995 HBk. I absolutely think he and taker can work a match like that.
Now if you would have rather seen cena vs undertaker I can't change your mind. That's personally preference. I personally feel that lesnar has more bad ass aura that makes the angle more interesting (I think we can both agree we already know taker wins either match) but I get the cena thing. However if you really think that match is going to suck I think you are in for a huge surprise (although I don't agree with your logic behind that at all). Not to beat a dead horse but hhh is beyond washed up as a worker and undertaker is frankly far superior in the ring to him at this point and way more over with the crowd. You won't get 50000 people sitting on there hands for this match like against hhh.
No, it's TNA so he just has to bring 5 canned goods to the next TV taping.
ReplyDeleteIn my world?
ReplyDeleteA mysterious "backer" (who ever EVER appears on TV - you can imply that it's Shane McMahon, Ted Turner, Donald Trump...who EVER) buys both TV shows. (If you want you make a new name for this new company.)
Anyway, I'd play it like the territory days: TNA is the Southern Division, ROH is the Northern Division. Have a Unified World champ and Tag champs that float between both brands, Your Southern and Northern Champs are #1 contenders to the World title and they get mandatory title shots. Have them compete against each other. Imagine the raucous crowds they could have if Bully is your Unified Champ and he has to go into Chicago to defend at a ROH show.
And help serve them to the homeless... aka the rest of the roster
ReplyDeleteNo, he just has to sue.
ReplyDeleteMy asshole is in tact and I haven't fucked Chyna
ReplyDeleteI never saw the appeal in King anyway.
ReplyDeleteOh because he is black you don't see the appeal you racist mother fucker?!?!?!?!? /falseoutrage
ReplyDeleteBlack Kryptonie makes him evil
ReplyDeleteRed Kryptonite mutates him
Pink Kryptonite turns him into Darren Young.
...or is it?
ReplyDeleteThat's just because she's single.
Burns a bridge? With ROH? LOL! They'll take ANYBODY back.
ReplyDeleteYeah, he didn't shuck or jive, or showed any gang affiliation. No "bling" or anything like that The fuck is wrong with him?
ReplyDeleteWe like our Negroes stereotypical.
What your saying sounds to me like getting fans to pop for near falls as nothing to do with drama happening during the match and is only based on the kayfabe wins and losses record. An exciting match can pull the audience in and have them going crazy for near falls. No one thought hbk would win at wm25 but everyone freaked out on the near falls. I believe that drama in the ring is what hooks the fans in. And for fans like you and me we already know the result and should justbe llooking for a great match (which cena could also deliver).
ReplyDeleteI assume the "genetic jackhammer" has tons of fetuses he fertilized in the basement of WWE headquarters, and has for years.
ReplyDeleteNice.
ReplyDeleteWhich one tuned his elbow into a baseball?
Red.
ReplyDelete"Spread em Summer Rae. Cenas elbow needs this"
ReplyDeleteYeah, none of that changes my mind: I still think the Lesnar/Taker match and the storyline leading into it will absolutely suck and will have the worst crowd heat of a Streak match in years. And none of my reasoning changes your opinion, so that's cool.
ReplyDeleteThe one thing though is I'm surprised at how you don't buy Cena as having a chance to end the Streak. He absolutely might be booked to win it, either as a face or as the angle for an epic heel turn. I absolutely think there's a possibility Taker jobs the streak when he knows it's time for his last match, and Cena is the one guy on the roster who both Vince and Taker would see as worthy of that win. (And whom they could make a shitload of money from after getting said win.)
Word. That is what is up!
ReplyDeleteSee I could be a wrestling black guy!
I agree with this. They would become toxic to wwe and frankly is 750 a show that much more than what roh pays?
ReplyDeleteJust start every sentence with "Yo" andend it with "Na'mean? and you'll be fine, na'mean?
ReplyDelete..waitaminute.
You could be a rappin' wrestler or an African savage!
ReplyDeleteOr what about a rapping Zulu warrior! Money gimmick.
ReplyDeleteMy name is parallax and I'm here to say/I like being a cannibal in a major way
Word up
Ok, I know that was a natural progression of the comments we made...but eww. Just....eww.
ReplyDeleteLol. Vinces penis. I'm done
ReplyDeleteYeah I guess my thing is I don't see it being an exciting match. For me, there's so many things going against Lesnar in that spot: I think it's a bad style clash in the ring, Lesnar's been defined down from being unbeatable (again, fans have just seen him lose at Wrestlemania and in his first match), Lesnar himself has zero motivation and his character doesn't seem to give a shit about being in pro wrestling, etc etc etc.
ReplyDeleteAnyway, I've covered my reasoning already, but I just think this is an awful match-up.
Also, I think Brock's drawing power was so killed off by that awful HHH series that I don't think this is a particularly special mainstream draw anyway.
I like mine with phat booty. Good GOD!!
ReplyDeleteVince McMahon = Ra Al Ghul.
ReplyDeleteYou had your chance with Saba Simba.
ReplyDeleteThis is exactly right and is why I never had big expectations for the Invasion, nor have I ever read a fantasy booking scenario that was both viable and compelling. The top guys of WCW were more comparable to the midcard of WWF at the time than the main eventers.
ReplyDeletehttp://i39.tinypic.com/2cerlhv.jpg
ReplyDeleteSummer Rae has definitely done damage to my elbow.
ReplyDeleteNo one is ending the streak. What money is to be made off cena winning? He's already the top draw...outside of the streak. Is this where you also fantasy book a cena heel turn ;)
ReplyDeleteBecause he's John Cena and is the most protected guy in WWE?
ReplyDelete"Vinces penis"....doesn't stack up to Show's forearm.
ReplyDeleteNOW you're done. ;-)
Especially if spread on married trim.
ReplyDeleteWe're going to have to do something about the fact that I am .7 Sheamus...
ReplyDeleteIn that other thread I asked "if you could ask Vince anything while he was on truth serum, what would it be"? Divas he's banged would be in my top 8 questuons
ReplyDeleteThere is way more drama to Cena v. Taker than there is to Lesnar v. Taker. The man in the company v. The Streak is so much better than Bad Ass Who Already Lost to HHH at Mania v. The Streak
ReplyDelete:: pondering ::
ReplyDeleteMind. BLOWN.
Scanners style.
An albino rapping Zulu warrior! Money gimmick?
ReplyDeleteBOOK IT!
So everybody that has worked for tna is toxic to wwe? Bad news for punk. And bad news for strong who already worked there.
ReplyDelete"Wrestlers he's banged would be in my top 8 questions."
ReplyDeleteFTFY
Meh. I don't care about who he's poked.
ReplyDeleteMy first thought was whether Montreal was a work or shoot. I go back and forth, depending on my mood.
I would want to ask which failed gimmicks he thought were 100% money, and which of the gimmicks that took off he was sure would fail.
Yup!!! Cena turns heel, and then he loses next year to... DANIEL BRYAN! Oh this is good...
ReplyDeleteListen, I'm with you in the boat that at this point I'm fine with Cena staying face and getting his 50/50 response. But EVENTUALLY they're turning him heel. That's just how wrestling works. And even if they don't, here's my thing with all this: when they eventually put Cena vs Taker, fans will buy into it. They'll buy into Cena's heel turn teases. They'll buy into Taker tapping to the STF. They'll buy into that second AA. (It's Mania, so no main eventers job to a first finisher.) Even if the match ends with Taker getting the win, the crowd absolutely buys into Cena way in a way you just can't with Brock Lesnar.
Black face. This gimmick is gonna be a home run
ReplyDelete"Mr. McMahon. How many male wrestlers have joined the Kiss My Ass club IRL?"
ReplyDeleteI felt like Heyman was saying he would be back with a vengeance on Punk, maybe I misunderstood though. Or maybe they haven't even decided what it means yet (most likely)
ReplyDeletePunk was there before TNA got off of the PPV-only model. And I have no memory of Strong being there, so I doubt he was around for much of their TV existence.
ReplyDelete"Mr. McMahon, how did Mark Henry earn that huge 20 year contract before he even wrestled one match??"
ReplyDeletePunk worked in TNA in a different era basically. My understanding is they don't want any of those guys that--werent stars before
ReplyDeleteHa. "Boogie man and Doink, both while in full get up. HBK, etc "
ReplyDeleteWho's strong? Roderick strong? He's in nxt?
ReplyDeleteRoderick Strong. The guy mentioned in the story. He worked for TNA.
ReplyDeleteAmen. If they really wanted to maximize Lesnar-Taker, then Lesnar needed to go into that match undefeated.
ReplyDeleteThey could have had him beat Cena at Extreme Rules 2012 in a way where Cena looks good- maybe Heyman or big Johnny interferes at the end, Lesnar hits Cena with a few more F5s on teh steps and the ref stops the match. Then if you have to, do the Lesnar-HHH Summerslam match with teh exact same result.
THEN last year at Mania 29 you do Taker vs Lesnar, with the storyline being "Undefeated vs Undefeated" plus Taker coming back to avenge what Lesnar had done to HHH. That at least, is SOMETHING.
This year will be what, Paul Heyman coming out on the Raw after the Rumble and saying he wants revenge on Taker for beating Punk last year? Meanwhile Lesnar stands around and is like "Yeah, whatever, that sounds cool." And then it's on! 21-0 vs 3-2! The battle is ON.
Masturbating...you're talking about Masturbating to Summer Rae?
ReplyDeleteWho says she didn't break it back when they went to school together?
ReplyDeleteHe worked in TNA several years ago.
ReplyDeleteThere's just as much indication that wwe isn't interested in any more Indy guys as there is tna guys. Best career advice? Make as much money as you can while you can.
ReplyDeleteLesnar didn't even have to beat Cena. Cena could have done the stretcher job to get him over as a legit threat. (He doesn't care about winning or losing, he cares about destroying!!"
ReplyDeleteI think their interest in TNA guys would be even lower now... except for the ones that have already been in the WWE.
ReplyDeleteBecause what could be a worse "habit", in Vince's eyes, than working for the competition? Even one that is a proverbial flea to the WWE's dog.
Yeah, that's the one weird thing about this. They definitely made it clear that Paul isn't finished going after Punk. And if anything, Punk beating Heyman up again just ESCALATES that feeling, not end it. To me it felt like they were just repeating the HIAC angle for the benefit of the majority of their audience who didn't order the PPV.
ReplyDeleteIt'd be really odd if Heyman-Punk was totally over. The logical thought was there still needs to be a Punk-Lesnar rematch, unless the angle is that "the devil" is Heyman and so he manages Bray against Punk.
A DQ loss would have been perfectly fine.
ReplyDeleteDisagree - Brock has a 0% chance of winning, while I'd say that Cena has, I dunno, a 10-20% chance.
ReplyDeleteJust my opinion.
Still doesn't top this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HN8L0W8ewY
ReplyDelete