Random observation/question for the blog. Do you think that we have seen the end of the development of new gimmick matches in WWE? Everything is so homogenized and repetitive, it seems somewhat far-fetched that they would go out of their way to develop something like Hell in a Cell or the Elimination Chamber. It's been over a decade since one of these specialty matches debuted and they seem perfectly content rolling with Last Man Standing or I Quit or cage matches. I'm sure that part of this has to do with the fact that many gimmick ideas involve increased violence and the need for bloodshed which is taboo at this point. I guess my point is that the lack of innovative creative match types over the last several years is just another example of how WWE is totally on cruise-control for the long haul.
Well yeah. Really if they can keep repackaging the same no DQ stips and calling them something else, they're gonna do so. Innovation equals risk and that's not what they're about. Better for them to let indies or TNA come up with new ideas and then steal them once they're proven. I expect an "Ultimate X-treme" match any day now.
They don't even use the gimmicks they have. Cage matches always have interference, HiaC doesn't have extreme violence or really anything that differentiates it from other no DQ matches (except for the throw the guy into the cage spot or the cheese grater spot, neither of which draw blood in 2013). Lumberjack matches, strap matches, something-on-a-pole matches, elimination tag matches are all rare these days.
ReplyDeleteThey don't need to invent new gimmicks, they can just reach into history and use the ones they already have,.
Even the good gimmick matches they have (HiaC and MitB) are ruined by having a show built around them rather than breaking them out when a feud dictates that they are needed. Now they just have a Hell in a Cell match cause it's October.
ReplyDeleteAlso, you always run the risk of a new gimmick match being awful (see Punjabi Prison or this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wndi40OJEy4).
I always had an idea during Jeff Hardy's tenure for something called a Daredevil's Playground match. It's basically a ladder match with select spots already set up.
ReplyDeleteStacked tables on the outside. A ladder in the corner. A ladder scaffold by the announce table. Two chairs holding up a ladder to make a makeshift table to put a guy through in the corner. A ladder wedged between the apron and the dasherboards. The preset spots don't even have to happen either. They're more suggestions than spoilers for how the match is going to go. And I imagine it'd be easier to modify a pre-existing spot than wasting match time setting up a new one.
Silly idea, but at least it's something other than [Cheap Pop City] Street Fight.
It's basically a glorified ladder match. But I like the idea, and, like you said, it's better than a *insert city name here* Street Fight. The only problem is too many people would say it's too close to a ladder match
ReplyDeleteI don't think the Punjabi Prison match was as bad as most people say it was. Sure it wasn't exactly great, but it was alright, even with Khali being in both of them.
ReplyDeleteMaybe have it be decided by pin or submission instead of retrieving an item?
ReplyDeleteThen again, there'd be the logistical issue of why no one goes for a cover after a missed spot.
I guess you could make it a contest to see who can put his opponent through X number of devastating spots, but then it'd just be a tables match, and I don't know anybody who actually likes those things.
I would have loved to have seen a Punjabi Prison match between two guys who were actually athletic enough to make use of the structure. The gimmick was handicapped right out the gate by only featuring big guys like Taker, Show, Batista, and Khali.
ReplyDeleteI think that's a really cool idea. It reminds me of how some of the cooler sets have ready-made spots just begging to be done. Why not just set up some gimmicks (and ensure they are set up safer) ahead of time and let a few guys have some fun?
ReplyDeleteGimmick matches don't mean anything anymore. Use to be that a cage match would result in the end of an intense feud. Same with Hell in a Cell. Actually, when I think about it, all gimmick matches pretty much signaled the end of a rivalry. Now, they're just like the titles: props to be used to build a storyline, not end one. You will see a Hell in a Cell match take place as the middle match of a 4 or 5 match series. Gimmick matches almost seem to be an afterthought, really. "OK, we're going to have Ryback take on Punk for the next 3 or 4 shows. Let's just make one of them different so it doesn't seem like we're giving them the same match every time out."
ReplyDeleteWrestling--err, sports entertainment, I mean--is WRITTEN, not BOOKED. There is a difference. Things have changed and things like titles and cage matches no longer mean what they used to.
That would be another bonus, having the spots set up to be safer, instead of leaving it up to the workers in the heat of the moment. Not that they don't know how to do spots safely, but I imagine there would be a steep learning curve for some of the younger guys who haven't been in stunt-type matches before (of course, the solution would be to just not book them in these types of matches, but WWE tends to book guys in matches whether they're prepared for/capable of it or not -- such as Khali in the Punjabi Prison).
ReplyDeleteLet's expose the business even more shall we?
ReplyDeleteBecause preset spots somehow exposes the business more than a guy politely waiting around for his opponent to set up the spot first.
ReplyDeleteTone down the meaningless spots in regular matches and focus on telling the story so the stipulation match feels bigger when they do pull out the big spots.
ReplyDeleteThere have been one or two since the Elimination Chamber, they just didn't really stick.
ReplyDeleteI agree that having a MITB themed ppv in july and HIAC every October takes away from the organic placement of these gimmick matches in feuds.
ReplyDeleteIm curious if the buyrates are up though since they rebranded the July and October ppvs with these gimmicks, compared to the average No Mercy and whatever the July ppv was. MITB is one of the most stand out shows every year, behind only Rumble, WM, and SS. While HIAC isnt on the same level as MITB, but at least it stands out. Think WWE got exactly what they wanted by branding July and Octore wwith these gimmick ppvs.
I think genie is completely out of that particular bottle anyway.
ReplyDeleteEvery time I get knocked out cold I fall on top of tables on my perfectly laid out on my back.
ReplyDeleteMitB was never an organic part of a feud. All they did was change which show it was on.
ReplyDeleteIt was done because you had a handful of upper midcarders without anything to do at wrestlemania that deserved a a match on the show and possibly a shot at the title, which is a good reason for a gimmick match. "It's the time of the year to do that gimmick PPV again" is not as good of a reason.
ReplyDeleteYou're splitting hairs. My point is that it was never an organic part of a feud, and it was always based on a calendar. Not having at Wrestlemania has taken some of the shine off of it.
ReplyDeleteMITB was never organically placed in a feud.
ReplyDeleteThe Kennel in a Cell match may have been a joke, but at least it was something different and I still remember it. Same with Diva Pillow fights or even (Blank) on a Pole matches. Homogenized and repetitive describe the current product pretty well.
ReplyDeleteUmmmm yes, it does because you can suspend disbelief somewhat with the guy waiting due to selling, jaw-jacking to the crowd or what not...
ReplyDeleteYou come in with the spots already pre staged, the fans know that more than likely they will be used, thus killing the suspense.
Which is why the early ladder matches are highly regarded whereas the Clockwork Orange House of (pancakes... the exact kind of match you are describing) Fun matches are not.
If the genie was completely out of the bottle then no one would buy the shows.
ReplyDeleteIm not saying that curtain hasnt been lifted, but certain gimmicks still draw, why put more of an effort to kill them off by having pre-staged spots?
It makes no sense.
Logic would say that a good Hell in a Cell should end a feud...but it didn't even end the first one it was featured in. The two parties battled three PPV's later anyway (and absolutely would've continued to battle had Shawn not gotten casketed)
ReplyDeleteI think the original email nailed it, the omission of blood and violence severely decreases the effectiveness of the gimmick match. The Ric Flair or old Triple H formula was to have a feud / series of matches and then pay it off with a bloody violent wild match. The PG Era prevents us from having this and renders the gimmick matches pointless.
ReplyDeleteOff all the gimmick matches ive ever seen the championship scrabble has to be the dumbest one by far. I haaaated that match.
ReplyDeleteHalf the spots in every TLC match were set up before the guys even got to the ring. No one pays that close attention except the 100 guys here.
ReplyDeleteOne thing I've never understood is why blading in a blow off match is so taboo in the pg era. Is it really more gruesome to have blood on your face than
ReplyDeleteand again, I hate those matches.
ReplyDeleteIm talking the Razor/Shawn matches and maybe the No Mercy Ladder match.
The TLC matches are soooo business exposing.
Fair enough, I'm just not sure any of this is "business exposing" except to people like us that are paying attention to every detail. I never walked away from a TLC thinking "wow that's fake" I always thought "Jesus, those guys will kill themselves for some attention".
ReplyDelete...leaking out of your urethra?
ReplyDeleteAnd in a world with a touch all four corners of the ring gimmick, or the ol' tuxedo match thats saying something
ReplyDeleteThis was a much better comment before the one above was edited...
ReplyDeleteLol I had a premture ejau-postingi
ReplyDeleteFair enoough. As I got older, the business side of wrestling intrigues me more than the wrestling because I like the directions they go and what dictates business.
ReplyDeleteWhen I watch those matches, I go "that will never work on top." and "holy hell what a trainwreck. They dont have the talent to be able to work without doing 8 millions highspots."
And now I look like a truly despicable monster...swoot.
ReplyDeleteThe shark cage match is a really, really bad idea too. "How can we ensure that absolutely no wrestling will take place in a match? Let's put them in a tiny cage so they can only throw half ass punches at each other..."
ReplyDeleteAgreed. I would have never finished it if I saw that first
ReplyDeleteRight because I want to watch a Raw full of chinlocks and rest holds.
ReplyDeleteI know. I should have been clearer instead of lumping it in with HIAC. I was trying to make a broader point about the ppv branding.
ReplyDeleteI think in the last ten years the fake MMA match with Kurt Angle and Jeff Jarrett may have been the worst.
ReplyDeleteBy the way, everything everyone is saying in this thread is exactly why they SHOULDN'T try WarGames.
ReplyDeleteFtty
ReplyDeleteIn general, the easier it is to explain a stip match, the better it will be.
ReplyDeleteWarGames in the WWE wouldnt work.
ReplyDeleteI always thought War Games in the cell would have been cool but not sans blood.
ReplyDeleteYup. BTW do we all agree war games was the all time greatest gimmick match?
ReplyDeleteOh god I totally forgot about that fucking train wreck
ReplyDeletei cant argue against it.
ReplyDeleteHard to say because there were so many of them that were so brutally awful too. I'm trying to remember ever being disappointed by a TLC and coming up empty...
ReplyDeleteHell in the Cell, the first one is my favorite match of all time.
ReplyDeleteBut can it be the greatest gimmick since so many bad matches have also happened under it's name?
ReplyDeleteI mean, because following your rules the I Quit match is the best gimmick ever because, for me, SCSA/Hart is miles above anything else in this business.
What was the one with shamrock and Blackman where they fought inside a circle of cars in a parking lot
ReplyDeleteIron Circle Match. You just beat the crap out of the guy to win.
ReplyDeleteI agree. I still enjoy the in ring product and show but the business side, political stuff, promotional strategies, the we brand, etc, all interest me more.
ReplyDeleteI think my favorite thing to watch that's wrestling based now are youshoots. Great insights
I think it's hard to beat a regular ol' cage match for best gimmick match ever. "The bad guy keeps running away or having his buddies interfere so lets put a cage around em, dammit." But as far as the gimmick that produced the most entertaining matches, WarGames wins in my book.
ReplyDeleteThere were some damn good I Quit matches, Flair - Funk is another.
ReplyDeleteHow about the rumble?
ReplyDeleteThis wins.
ReplyDeleteI have found it easier to get non-fans interested in the outside of the ring aspect of the business than actual wrestling. One friend in particular has no interest in wrestling at all, but was completely enthralled when I started explaining the territory system...
ReplyDeleteRoyal Rumble is the ONLY PPV that I get jacked up for. It's always about "who's coming out next".
ReplyDeleteyou win
ReplyDeleteI think it's one of the few things in wrestling that kids and adults can get equally excited about honestly. For all of us being the jaded assholes we are when it comes to this "sport" not a damn one of us EVER says anything bad about the Rumble.
ReplyDeleteI think you're right
ReplyDeleteIts amazing how much the old vignettes of people drawing a number added to this effect. Seeing them smile or bitch about their number, but not know what the number they drew. It's Writing 101 stuff but it added so much.
ReplyDeleteI actually think its a fair question whether or not there's been more great I quit matches than hitc matches
ReplyDeleteYea, it really is fascinating. How business has evolved from territories, through the Monday night wars, through the pg/wwe brand days just fascinates me
ReplyDeleteIt would be interesting to hear Foley's take on what hurts more, lol.
ReplyDeleteFucking Tully vs magnum ta is the shit, the rock vs mick one...
ReplyDeleteTone down != eliminate.
ReplyDeleteWhat's the best TLC match without Jeff hardy? Cena vs ziggler?
ReplyDeleteYeah, I have friends that couldn't give less of a shit about wrestling that LOVE the vernacular as a short-hand for everything else in the world. Selling, kayfabe, cutting promo, work/shoot, these are all phrases that my friends and I use all the time, particularly when talking politics. Politics and wrestling go together so perfectly it's horrifying.
ReplyDeleteDidn't RVD/Eddie do one? Or was that just a regular ladder match I forget...
ReplyDeleteDid the Smackdown Six ever take a turn at TLC?
The funniest was when they put the OJ car chase vignette in the Piper/Goldust brawl match at WM
ReplyDeleteI don't have a problem with MITB being calendar-based - much like the Rumble or KOTR, it's basically just a tournament.
ReplyDeleteThings like HIAC and TLC, however, should only be used when a feud warrants them, hence why the scheduled aspect fall flats.
I remember renting survivor series 1990 on vhs back when I was a kid and being fucked stoked they did the ultimate survivor gimmick
ReplyDeleteI thought BattleBowl was an interesting concept at first. The idea of drawing your tag team partner at random was a neat idea. But then sticking the winners in a battle royal was the retarded part. They should have let the teams battle it out tournament style for cash or something. Something that has fallen by the wayside in the last decade: the wrestler that's in it for the money, and will do anything to get his hands on it, including work with an old enemy.
ReplyDeleteThere was a former wwe lackey writer on a Keller pod and he claims Vince tossed around the idea of airing a ppv "behind the scenes" pregame type show. They apparently claimed the idea was to show creative in meetings, all the backstage stuff, them planning out matches, etc.
ReplyDeleteTalk about ducking letting the genie out of the bottle. So glad they didn't do this.
When I started getting into the fake David Von Erich autograph stuff, and explaining the Sheik killing Detroit for every oher wrestling company by running the same gimmicks over and over again he was completely hooked. It's such an amazing, unbelievable business.
ReplyDeleteEvery gimmick is going to have it's share of stinkers and it's share of awesome matches.
ReplyDeleteVery few gimmicks can save a badly booked match or if the two guys in it are useless.
"Scramble," but it actually makes me sad that your typo isn't actually what they did. I'd love to see a game of Scrabble for the WWE championship. Then Damien Sandow would have a shot.
ReplyDeleteWorld War 3 was always a bad one. Just too many people.
ReplyDeleteAnd scaffold matches are universally bad.
Vs Lanny Poffo!
ReplyDeleteWe haven't seen an iron man in forever. When was the last one...08, 07?
ReplyDeleteThey also tend to run feuds in reverse - they'll have a HIAC or some other big gimmick as the first match, then follow it with a regular match.
ReplyDeleteThe yearly "million dollar man trying to buy a better number" spot was always golden
ReplyDeleteWhy, oh WHY, did nobody jump off the "Brooklyn Bridge" at WM this year?
ReplyDeleteEspecially considering they have a rich man gimmick (Del Rio) and a smart guy gimmick (Sandow) and haven't ever tried to do something similar.
ReplyDeleteEddie stealing Flair's number... and his wallet was even better.
ReplyDeleteAgreed. I definitely turn into a mark for that match. If done well, it's such a good mix of drama, comedy, spots, etc.
ReplyDeleteROH ran a Ringmaster's Challenge match which was 2/3 falls: Fist fall pinfall, second fall submission, and third fall 15 min Ironman match. It's a really good concept, but not something that WWE would really have the time to let play out properly. Perfect for an indy that prides itself on "wrestling" though.
ReplyDeleteLast Man Standing is the worst gimmick in the world. HHH vs. Jericho is the only one of these that didn't bore me to tears. Oh yeah, real riveting to sit around watching a ten count.
ReplyDeleteHHH v. Orton and Cena v. Umaga are awesome
ReplyDelete6 words: Judy Bagwell On A Pole Match
ReplyDeleteDisagree on HHH vs. Orton but Cena vs. Umaga was good. The latter worked because it was just about violence and not ten counts.
ReplyDeleteLadder.
ReplyDeleteNo
Money in the Bank is really the last thing they came up with, and its just a glorified ladder match for a title match contract.
ReplyDeleteWe're in the Golden Age of booking the angle for the stipulation when it's easier the other way round. Chickenshit heel? Bullrope. Interference? Cage.
ReplyDeleteYes, it does
ReplyDeleteDid you change your avatar to give Dougie something new?
ReplyDeleteI just synced it with my AV Club account, and Steve McQueen is my avatar there.
ReplyDeletePerhaps.
ReplyDeleteSide Note: If you want to go slumming I will allow you to main event the Impact thread tomorrow... I am holding another audition and can't make it.
Beat the clock matches have potential, but they're never booked like they should. After the first match the other matches should have guys going for quick covers and multiple pinning combinations, but instead we get normal matches built up to the standard finisher finishes.
ReplyDeleteThe first time they did that on RAW was fantastic... it has never been since
ReplyDeleteThat's just another example of the complete lack of psychology in 95% of WWE matches.
ReplyDeleteThe problem is that most good gimmick matches end up with blood, or at least pushing the performers to the limit. There's nothing wrong with Hell in the Cell, but once you take blood out of it, it's hard to make it mean anything. I suspect, with a bit of sadness, that it's going to take a swing in the business back towards violent, hardcore matches for the next generation of gimmicks to happen.
ReplyDeleteI think Scott came in his pants during the first Beat the Clock Raw.
ReplyDeleteMan, you are grumpy today. =)
ReplyDeleteI think it adds an element of perceived danger that would add suspense. "They're not going to go up there, are they?" "He wouldn't dare jump off of that" Some things you use, some you don't. And with certain things already set up, people also don't have to clumsily put it all together. It just seems fun to me. MitB's are tremendous to watch even though they aren't as good as HBK-Ramon I or II.
ReplyDeleteAs far as waiting goes, I could definitely do without Randy Orton pounding the mat right next to a fallen opponent (letting him know he's going for the RKO), waiting for his opponent to groggily get up, and then trying his finishing move.
Not a gimmick match per se, but as a gimmick SHOW, the Beat the Clock Challenges were quite refreshing and well booked for a while. If they can reduce it to once per year, and keep the story lines and wrestlers "thinking strategically", then that is a pure winner for a "new gimmick"
ReplyDeleteRaw Roulette is a tweak away from being good as well. Instead of gimmicks, have the wheel determine opponents, or championship to challenge for. Imagine a mid carder getting a roulette shot at say the WHC, winning it, then holding on for a few months of challengers. Good way to make a star.
ReplyDeleteThat Umaga/Cana match is overlooked. Very good
ReplyDeleteDamn I miss Umaga. Top five entrance music as well.
ReplyDeleteI think they missed the boat by not doing this during the legitimate period of the brand extension. Do your 5 person mixed brand teams with the faces against the heels, and then do a match with the survivors against each other, divided by brand.
ReplyDeleteGee, Thanks mistuh!
ReplyDeleteNo foolies?
I've always felt that X Division matches should have a "Spin the Wheel" type deal. This way the competitor doesn't know what the type of match is. (Hence the X) Just don't include blindfold matches or anything stupid.
ReplyDeleteAs far as the WWE goes I like "Beat the Clock" and the "24/7 Hardcore Rule" other shit they can't do because they don't show blood.
IM sure he was just exaggerating but i tend to agree with you if the business model was to really build towards PPV.
ReplyDeleteThat just isnt the case these days. PPVs for the longest time have been commercial free RAWs and thats another problem.
Nitro set the national precedent of having star vs star matches and WWE had to follow suit.
The problem is/was they never scaled back after they bought WCW. So now you have 10 years of John Cena for 52 weeks a year instead of just highlighting him once a month and keeping him sepcial so that you had to pay big money to see him perform.
Tessmacher on a pole match would be better.
ReplyDeleteIts match dictates the booking rather than booking dictating the match.
ReplyDeleteWho's pole though?
ReplyDelete****hurriedly raises hand
Well there has only been 20 HITC matches tops whereas there has been many many more
ReplyDeleteFA' REAL DOUGH
ReplyDeleteWWE did matches with Jake the Snake and Rick Rude where the winner is the one that hits his finisher first. Well DUH..
ReplyDeleteBlindfold matches and scaffold matches suck as well.
That was the show that they changed the title 3 times right because of the Cena injury.
ReplyDeleteThat LMS was awesome as fuck.
I always liked the idea of an ironman match, but the title could change hands each fall. Whomever is holding the belt when the time runs out is the champion. That way the impetus to win changes every time a fall occurs.
ReplyDeleteI already called it. That is legally binding
ReplyDeleteNothing was more baffling than blowing off Punk/Ryback with a Street Fight the night after their Hell in a Cell PPV match.
ReplyDeleteNope. 28 HITC matches to date.
ReplyDeleteElimination Chamber is the only real exception to this I can think of.
ReplyDeleteDownvote because the PPVs are FAR from commercial free. They're just RAW with on-brand commercials.
ReplyDeletereally? Yikes...
ReplyDeleteRegardless, there has been many many more I quit matches.
In my mind, I can clearly hear Bobby Heenan ask "but whose pole is she on?" as Hulk Hogan makes his entrance into the bedroom.
ReplyDeleteI haven't read all the replies, so apologies if anyone has already mentioned it, but one of my all-time favorite gimmick matches was the HBK/Orton match where HBK couldn't use Sweet Chin Music and Orton would have lost the belt on a DQ. It was a great gimmick because it leant itself to telling an interesting story, as HBK had to alter his style to a submission driven one to try and win, and Orton had to fight fair. The finish played perfectly into the story and the gimmick as well. It's an incredibly simple setup, but it led to an awesome match that was better (IMO) than any of their other twenty or so match-ups.
ReplyDeleteGood call. Ironically, Khali had a manager (Daivari) who would've been 100 times more entertaining to watch in that kind of match. A Punjabi Prison with Khali and Undertaker is nothing....put Rey Mysterio and John Morrison in there and it'd be a classic.
ReplyDeleteCena and Orton had one at Backlash 09.
ReplyDeleteCena/Umaga is indeed underrated, I'd say it's one of Cena's top five matches ever and one of his few true "total face" matches where the whole crowd is rooting him on.
ReplyDeleteI didn't see that as a blowoff, I saw that as "well, he can't get pinned and tap out in the same match, so we'll get to the tapout tomorrow"
ReplyDeleteAlot of gimmick matches involve innovation and risk when you debut them. And the WWE is sanitized and scripted. There's no room for either. Hell, if they went TV14 again (although I doubt blood ever happens again because of the hep) they'd probably be afraid to let them blade just because they wouldn't know how to. It's not something you learn at a training center for a publicly traded company.
ReplyDelete"Okay guys, here's your razor blades, let's get to gigging!"
The random tag teams was an interesting idea, but the execution wasn't there. It seemed like every match featured some either 'two guys feuding RANDOMLY wind up on the same team!" or "tag team partners find themselves on opposite teams!". Or both.
ReplyDeleteDoes anyone think the TLC matches are overrated? There's never any real continuity or psychology. It's spot spot climb. Rinse repeat.
ReplyDeleteDidn't late WCW have a 'powerbomb' match between Nash and Sid? Where somehow didn't even deliver on that finish?
ReplyDeleteThey made me nervous more than anything else, because a few of the participants were idiots and would do ridiculous spots. I don't feel like paying money to watch someone die. Once was enough.
ReplyDeleteThe title doesn't make the man. The man makes the title.
ReplyDeleteHATE THEM ALL!
ReplyDeleteVehemently hate them. They are crap.
I hate Elimination Chamber more. All that steel around the ring leads to a TON of unsafe bumps in my opinion.
ReplyDeleteThat was only the last one.... the other three weren't ALWAYS like that. Although it did happen once in a while in the originals, but it wasn't something that was statistically unlikley IMO.
ReplyDeleteBut that last one was FUCKING RIDICULOUS.
it can go both ways.
ReplyDeleteThe first 4 were awesome, after that not so much.
ReplyDeleteBut I lean towards the man making the title.
ReplyDeleteHere's my Survivor Series idea: 8 four man teams in elimination matchs, the survivors of each winning team advance. So in the first round it's 4-on-4, but in the first match if one guy survives and the second three surive, it's a three-on-one handicap match. Tournament style.
ReplyDeleteMore unsafe than jumping off a 20 ft ladder through 2 tables?
ReplyDeleteOr unprotected chair shots to the head?
Most HITC matches have been good-great but other than Flair/Funk I can't think of a great I Quit match.
ReplyDeleteEC's not really that complicated. Guys come in one at a time, if you get pinned you're out.
ReplyDeleteTNA (specifically Vince Russo) came up with some FUCKED UP STIPS.
Yeah, the chamber isn't that unsafe. Stiff as hell but there's not much to bump off of in there. There's actually room for some psychology. TLC is all bumps and no thought process, especially if Jeff Hardy is around
ReplyDeleteTLC 2 was a pile of shit, and probably the most overrated match of all time.
ReplyDeleteAs far as convoluted stips, the Tuxedo Steel Cage Coal Miner's Glove Loser Leaves Town match from Mid-South was excellent.
ReplyDeleteI've had my fill of matches involving ladders for now. For a while.
ReplyDeleteI've never heard of this being done, but it always seemed like a decent enough idea to blow off a three-way feud. To avoid any "yeah, but you didn't pin ME!" arguments that always wind up happening with three-way matches, do one where you have to pin BOTH of your opponents to win. Any reason why this wouldn't work and/or be awesome with the right three people?
ReplyDeleteI don't understand how guys not bleeding all over themselves lessens the match somehow. I don't need to see it, and I can only think of one match (Hart/Austin Submission from Mania 13) where the blood played into the finish and added to the drama. I'm totally okay not seeing it and I'm glad where passed the era where that kind of self-mutiliation was "part of the job."
ReplyDeleteSounds like the Championship Scramble
ReplyDeleteMeh, not really. Undertaker moved away from Michaels for a few months, then Undertaker got the casket match but it wasn't really a continuous feud that whole time.
ReplyDeleteYou gotta rewatch punk vs Jeff hardy tlc asap. Out of control awesomeness
ReplyDeleteI don't mind the October HitC as long as they've had the forsight to build up a feud to make the Cell approrpiate. That was a real problem the first two years.
ReplyDeleteDid anyone give a shit about Sheamus/Orton in a Cell?
Summerslam 2000 one?
ReplyDeleteMorrison climbed to the top of the fucking thing, hung upside down and dropped on to whoever it was...
ReplyDeleteX7
ReplyDeleteIsn't just an elimination match at that point?
ReplyDeleteIs that a real thing?
ReplyDeleteThe rules were pretty dumb, I felt. If I remember, they had to escape but there were only certain windows the doors would be opened and once they were all shut... that was it?
ReplyDeleteI think that was TLC 1, but it really doesn't matter, they were all shit.
ReplyDeleteSandman vs sabu...worst match you've ever seen between guys that actually earned a living from wrestling or a prank heyman played on us?
ReplyDeleteCena/Umaga was lots of fun.
ReplyDeleteBINGO. If they lay off the gimmicks for awhile, everything old is new again.
ReplyDeleteAlthough I don't ever think I'll see a cage match as special again....
Cause it always ends with the almost-double-knockout, right?
ReplyDeleteThat match was AWFUL, but not nearly as bad as New Jack vs. Mustafa, or Zeus/Abby.
ReplyDeleteTHIS. The whole fucking match is one guy laying there and the other standing there
ReplyDeleteI like the gimmick but when its bad its really bad...sandman vs sabu n2r TLC match anyone?
ReplyDeleteThe tables breaking absorb some of the impact.
ReplyDeleteThere's no give on that steel around the apron, and a lot of times to me it looks like the guys don't have time to brace themselves for the fall. And since it's right there, the wrestlers are doing just normal "safe" spots that would be fine in the ring on the STEEL.
I'm not saying one's better than the other, but I feel a lot of the Chamber is unnecessarily dangerous. The parts of the chamber that are cool too me is the drama of the guys coming out every five minutes and can the guy who starts it finish it. I don't feel like all the steel adds anything significant to the drama.
And I hate unprotected chair shots to the head.
I mentioned that earlier. It really does completely eliminate any chance of having a decent match.
ReplyDeleteThis is how ECW did all of their triangle matches.
ReplyDeleteI've been thinking in a three-way match for a title, if you're the champion you should only have to pin one opponent, but if you're a challenger you have to pin both the champion and the other challenger, would be an interesting wrinkle on the stipulation.
It was and it was awesome. Dibiase v. Duggan. On the mid-south DVD.
ReplyDeleteI like that idea a lot. Also, I hate WWE 3/4 way matches with a passion.
ReplyDeleteThat's the best way to do them the pin anyone idea sucks and I never understood why WWE always went that way.
ReplyDeleteNo Austin/Hart? Or Rock/Foley?
ReplyDeleteThe Triangle match (WWE's version) gives you a winner, a loser, and a guy with an excuse. That's why. It allows them to protect someone.
ReplyDelete3-Way Dance (ECW's version), you have 1 winner and two losers.
So if I have a match between Cena/Edge/Chris Jericho and I want to move the belt between Cena and Edge, well, there's Chris Jericho to job the match and protect Cena. It's almost like having an instant transitional champion.
Yeah ok, makes sense.
ReplyDeleteI still like the other way though.
Yup. Timing of the title change and what you do booking the new guy as champ determines if both the title and the guy get over, or if both fail. Symbioticrelationship.
ReplyDeleteOMG THANK YOU!
ReplyDeleteThat match is so overrated.
It is terrible.
Its like 21 year olds wet dream of a match. Its so bad!
I think the idea is that whoever wins has to pin BOTH of the other guys. So if it's HBK/Bryan/Punk (just 'cause it's my hypothetical and I get to pick), even if HBK superkicks Bryan, Bryan's still in the match. HBK only wins once he's also pinned Punk. It's kind of similar to the Iron Man or 2/3 Falls match in that getting pinned once isn't that big of a deal.
ReplyDeleteYes one fall to a finish in 3 way matches are terrible.
ReplyDeleteWere the WCW triangle matches first fall wins? I remember that they were unique in that you had one guy on the apron waiting to be tagged in, while WWF/E and ECW 3-ways had all 3 guys in the ring at once.
ReplyDeleteI feel like I saw a good one between Taker and Batista, but maybe I imagined that.
ReplyDeletePunjabi Prison is another interesting one to rebook. Bamboo cage is a fun idea, but the escape hatches and lack of visibility seeing through the cage hurt. There's probably a way to make it TV friendly (walls on three sides, camera side has no wall, but something on the floor instead for example). Bamboo cage doesn't work, but bamboo walls might have a chance.
ReplyDeleteWhat's even worse is that that match made Jeff Hardy a star, despite the fact that he fucked up pretty much every spot that he was involved in.
ReplyDeleteThe rumble is awesome, the who's next aspect is the tits.
ReplyDeleteIs that the Barry O av?!
ReplyDeleteif so, loving it!
I'd love to see a match where each guy's finisher is banned, but the finish is wrestler A hits wrestler B with wrestler B's own finisher and pins him.
ReplyDeleteYeah, I do too. To be fair, they have done it correctly a few times, but some of them are just completely cheap. The Angle/Jericho/Benoit one might be the cheapest of all time. Guy drops two belts without getting pinned for either of them.
ReplyDeleteYeah, but with the giant ladder, one fuckup and you're seriously injured, at bare minimum
ReplyDelete