Wanted to take a day off from "what if" to lead a discussion I find interesting. Are the days of individual wrestlers being "draws" over?
If you read this blog regularly, you may have seen me state the opinion that "the WWE brand is the draw." By this I mean that the importance of individual wrestlers driving business is essentially negligble, and business is driven entirely by the WWE name. No individual on earth can draw or move needle the way Austin or Hogan could back in the day. The E has such a diversified revenue stream now as opposed to 15 years ago (advertising dollars, corporate partnerships, TV revenue, merchandise, gates, ppv, etc.) that putting all your eggs in the basket of one superstar is just to risky for them. It's really fucking brilliant, eliminate as much possible risk (top guys leaving, injuries, etc) in your core product so all the other cash streams that feed off of it can constantly rack up revenue. This is why instead of promoting Rock and Brock as special outside attractions and special "draws" they did their best to ingratiate them back into the WWE universe. Do you agree, and to what extent?
To ask it another way, if they build up Heath Slater, Ryback, and Curtis Axel for 6 months then give them Cena, Bryans, and Punks spots, how much does overall business drop? If they take guys like Cena and Taker off WM, does it still do around 800k - 1 million? I think it does.
- How much do individual wrestlers matter in today's landscape?
- Are they just interchangeable parts with little bearing to the overall product?
- Will we ever see the days of a massive "draw" again?
This is just scratching the surface to the topic. Go in any direction you like.
*If you haven't read the Lydon Murtha piece on cnnsi.com, I highly suggest it. First person account by a guy who played with Incognito and Martin on the situtation. It completely paints Incognito in a different light then the media has.
If you read this blog regularly, you may have seen me state the opinion that "the WWE brand is the draw." By this I mean that the importance of individual wrestlers driving business is essentially negligble, and business is driven entirely by the WWE name. No individual on earth can draw or move needle the way Austin or Hogan could back in the day. The E has such a diversified revenue stream now as opposed to 15 years ago (advertising dollars, corporate partnerships, TV revenue, merchandise, gates, ppv, etc.) that putting all your eggs in the basket of one superstar is just to risky for them. It's really fucking brilliant, eliminate as much possible risk (top guys leaving, injuries, etc) in your core product so all the other cash streams that feed off of it can constantly rack up revenue. This is why instead of promoting Rock and Brock as special outside attractions and special "draws" they did their best to ingratiate them back into the WWE universe. Do you agree, and to what extent?
To ask it another way, if they build up Heath Slater, Ryback, and Curtis Axel for 6 months then give them Cena, Bryans, and Punks spots, how much does overall business drop? If they take guys like Cena and Taker off WM, does it still do around 800k - 1 million? I think it does.
- How much do individual wrestlers matter in today's landscape?
- Are they just interchangeable parts with little bearing to the overall product?
- Will we ever see the days of a massive "draw" again?
This is just scratching the surface to the topic. Go in any direction you like.
*If you haven't read the Lydon Murtha piece on cnnsi.com, I highly suggest it. First person account by a guy who played with Incognito and Martin on the situtation. It completely paints Incognito in a different light then the media has.
Hahahahaha.....you guys thought they were bringing back Jeff Jarrett. What kind of sense would that make anyway?
ReplyDeleteThe first 3 were such good news... then the last 2 were such a let down... it was just like RAW hours! (RAW is 5 hours long right?)
ReplyDeleteHahahahagah. Love me some Pacman
ReplyDeleteAlso, how long before we get Cena/Brie training vignettes? Or a sex tape?
ReplyDeleteMaybe TNA can sign a deal with the Duck Dynasty guys and make their own, BETTER Wyatt family! Hooo boy, fuck that company, they're done.
ReplyDeleteI'm really not liking this push to break Reigns from The Shield already. With his look and pedigree it's been a forgone conclusion and he's gotten marginally better enough for them to risk it I'm sure, but there's a lot of mileage left in The Shield and I'd hate to see it squandered just b/c Vince has a boner for another Samoan. I'll take Ambrose & Reigns as a new paired down Shield as consolation though.
Reigns has a good, strong handshake.
ReplyDeleteRey needs to seriously give it up. Each "comeback" he has ends with another injury and more apathy from the fans.
ReplyDeleteI'd rather they somehow turn both Reigns and Rollins Face and give the rocket push to Ambrose as a creepy heel, but that's me.
ReplyDeleteAgain the wwe trying to push something that the fans haven't asked for. Why turn Reigns? It's not like a Rock situation where they have to turn him because the fans love him, I haven't seen a single thing to suggest Reigns would work as a face.
ReplyDeleteWhy is nothing allowed to develop organically anymore?
Maybe you should ask Jef Vinson for that.
ReplyDeleteNo competition means they can lie to themselves about why their fans are booing or cheering. A strong competition is an irrefutable sign that a large part of the collective audience actually doesn't like what you tell them to like.
ReplyDeleteI absolutely agree with your sentiment, but I'm not sure it's fair to say that *nothing* is allowed to develop organically anymore. I mean, practically all of today's face turns are an organic thing -- almost to a fault. Most Superstars miss out on that huge face turn moment by never doing anything especially heroic. Instead, they just repeatedly get cheers, and one day they're just put up against heels instead of faces. Just look at Daniel Bryan or Dolph Ziggler or CM Punk (most recently) or Sheamus or Kane (before the heel turn). None of them really turned. They just started getting cheers and were suddenly faces.
ReplyDeleteWrong twin.
ReplyDeleteYou're so cute when you try and do math.
ReplyDeleteTrue. I view the Bells as a collective omnipresent annoying entity. Names are irreverent
ReplyDeleteHomo
ReplyDeleteNot that there is anything wrong with that
ReplyDeleteTrish sucked at first too. Training with Bryan all the time can certainly do nothing but help her.
ReplyDeleteThe last story... BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Really, Dixie? You'd be better off staying the hell away from stuff like that... but being a fame whore has a price, I guess.
ReplyDeleteYeah I bet Trish 'sucked' at first... giggity!
ReplyDeleteSadly, more than Pacman Jones.
ReplyDeleteAm I the only one now hoping she's stupid enough to have another #AskDixie session on Twitter?
ReplyDeleteOther than Elvy that is!
I'd ask her how it feels to be 1984-85 Vince on the "fame whore" chart.
ReplyDeleteHas their name been in the paper in the last few years? Are they in WWE/jail/dead? If the answers are yes and no, SIGN THEM NOW. Coming to Impact next week: Random musical one-hit wonder from 2005-07.
They need to take their time with Reigns so they don't fuck it up. And do it old school, have him win the Rumble(not this year, or even next year) and win the title at WM.
ReplyDeleteBecause if it can happen "organically" in WWE, it can happen "organically" anywhere else. But if it takes the WWE "machine" to make someone famous, then you're quite limited in your options.
ReplyDeleteThere were no real "face turns" in your examples. All of them were gradual slides over to the good guys, but a "turn" needs that catalyst (no, NOT Chad Bryant), that one act (or few acts) that tell the crowd "This guy has turned to the Light, CHEER HIM!"
ReplyDeleteRandom acts of kindness do not a good face turn make.
(And then I noticed your second to last line, where you say just that. Reading is smrt.)
Hey, you're the tease.
ReplyDeleteThere is a weird homo erotic vibe going around the board today.
ReplyDeleteI expect you to change your avatar to reflect that. NOT your gif posts.
ReplyDeleteMy dog would make more sense than Pacman Jones.
ReplyDeleteAnd yes, he has held the TNA title. There was a tournament in Tijuana.
A nice way to jumpstart the Reigns thing could be to have the Shield clear the ring in the Rumble and then have Ambrose try to eliminate Reigns but have it backfire. Stick Rollins on either side, or even have him step back and just watch.
ReplyDeleteI care about Rey Mysterio about as much as I care about the Big Show at this point. (Hint: zero)
Since AJ has that wacky Black Widow submission, maybe Brie picks up the Cattle Mutilation to use against her. It would... Oh whatever, I don't really give a shit about this either.
I am not sure which one Eva Marie is and I am ok with that.
Also ok with not knowing who this Pacman fellow is.
So seriously, I ALWAYS give those in an industry the benefit of the doubt as far as industry knowledge goes. I think I know a lot about wrestling but would never say "I could do a better job then writer X or booker X" since I've never worked a day in the business at all.
ReplyDeleteHowever, if TNAs answer is to bring back Pacman Jones, I may have to rethink that stance relative to TNA higher ups.
For Reigns, i would actually have him elimiated by Ambrose at the Rumble. Give him a reason to be pissed at Ambrose
ReplyDeleteExactly. I think we just have to accept that a Roman Reigns superman-face-of-the-company push is just inevitable and fucking deal with it, and frankly, as far as Vince big man types go, Reigns is a pretty good choice. He carries himself like a badass, he's been part of some of the best matches of the past year, and hell, he's got a cool name. So if they have to push a big guy as the megaface, well he's way better than Mason Ryan or some such slug.
ReplyDeleteBUT, yeah, doing it between now and Mania would be way too soon. In my opinion they should save Reigns' turn for after The Shield itself has been positioned as a main event act, rather than midcard goons for hire. Like, let's imagine a fantastical world in which HHH/Kane/Show etc have actually gone and newer guys like SHield and the Wyatts are your main villains. You have Dean Ambrose as WWE champ, reeking havoc on all the babyfaces. Ambrose is getting uber cocky. And then bam, just rip off the Batista-HHH-Evolution angle to the letter, with Reigns winning the Rumble, leaving Shield, and beating Ambrose for the title at a Mania. And there ya go, two new megstars that you could build main events around for the next decade.
Or, ya know, Reigns can turn face next week, beat Ambrose for the US Title on Smackdown, and the fans go apathetic. That too.
Can he actually wrestle this time?
ReplyDeleteFor the little we've seen of him, I like Reigns...alot. I'd have no problem with him getting the rocket crammed up his ass
ReplyDeleteFor all we know Reigns could end up being the guy who beats Orton for the WWE title at mania. I personally think that'd be wayyyy too soon and the fans wouldn't rally around Reigns as much as they would if The Shield were main eventers when he turns... but you know, it probably won't be Bryan or Punk, so Reigns is very likely.
ReplyDeleteDo the Diesel push with Reigns, to be eliminated by Ambrose, just like Michaels in 94.
ReplyDeleteI'd actually be shocked if Reigns doesn't end up as a megastar. He has everything you'd want.
ReplyDeleteYes.
ReplyDeleteYes, he can.
I really wanna see Mysterio come back just to put over a heel in a feud by losing his mask to him. Then Rey Rey retires.
ReplyDeleteSeriously, I'd say unmasking Rey (and yes, I know it was done in WCW but that was forever ago and none of the kiddie fans know about that) would be one step below "cheating to end The Streak" in terms of things a heel could do to get a decade's worth of heat. Imagine Ambrose vs Rey at say Royal Rumble, US Title vs Rey's mask. Ambrose beats Rey, unmasks him, and then parades the mask around with him every time he comes to the ring? People would wanna fucking kill the guy.
But yeah, short of Rey losing his mask to someone like Ambrose, I have zero interest in the guy. It's 2013. Fucking NEXT.
Just emulate the Brock rookie type monster push. Give him a mouth piece if really necessary. Let him just be a fucking monster that plows through people. No real "cute " type gimmick needed. He's not as good as Brock in the ring but he's got everything else
ReplyDeleteIsn't he on the Bengals? I'm sure they would be unhappy...
ReplyDeleteI think monster faces ought to start off strong. Maybe he counters Ambrose first but then gets caught via numbers or distraction. But Reigns' biggest strength is his physicality so he should get the upper hand in a first exchange during a face turn.
ReplyDeleteRemember when Batista turned on HHH? He won that first encounter and it was a great moment. Imagine if he had not gotten the upper hand there? We'd have to wait a week to see him get the upper hand. A freshly turned monster face should be unstoppable at first. Let the fans celebrate that turn with him.
Pacman? I think so.
ReplyDeleteBut, I was talking about my dog.
THIS is making you rethink that stance? Come on, enough with the shenanigans... TNA's higher ups have RARELY been "wrestling-wise".
ReplyDeleteMore often than not, it feels like what WCW would have looked like if Time Warner was truly running the show, with their corporate staff and management.
Fair enough. Was he trained by Terrible Ted? Gentle Ben? As long as Steiner's pit bulls/rottweilers/whatever breed weren't the trainers, that dog has potential?
ReplyDeleteAlso: Has Bobby Eaton punched said dog in the snout?
I was thinking ten men in the ring, The shield comes in, Reiagns saves Ambrose from being eliminated, and does most the work clearing the ring, the Shield celebrate in the ring, Ambrose chuckes Reigns out behind his back, Reigns go crazy and spears both Amborse, Rollins and various refs, and turns face.
ReplyDeleteOh I agree. He looks the part, acts the part, his ring work (obviously protected by being in only tag matches) seems miles above a typical guy at that size. And again, he completely carries himself like a star. I mean, he's a younger, better Batista.
ReplyDeleteAnd he now has a year of the fans loving shit he's been involved in, so there's a history with the fans that isn't typically there when Vince shoves a big guy down everyone's throat.
BUT, again, I really hope they save the turn for a hot storyline, preferably when Ambrose himself has been built up to mean more. Reigns turning on Ambrose for a midcard feud— yeah, I mean if Vince wants to get Reigns over, he'll get him over. But Reigns turning on Ambrose after Ambrose has been established as a main event heel? That would get Reigns over way easier.
That's my point i guess. I don't know the real power structure of TNA, the politicaal scene, who the real braintrust is, how things really get done behind the scenes, etc. I don't think anyone does unless they've spent time there, so I've always thought it was unfair to just say "push AJ stylez" or whatever.
ReplyDeleteBut this, I don't see any rationale in any situtation that ANYONE within the company can think this is a good idea
I think Reigns can be a power version of The Rock in the ring.
ReplyDeleteHe has a vertical leap that rivals Kofi's, he has nothing to do with the Steiners, and he ate Eaton's mullet.
ReplyDeleteI wouldn't disagree with you. I've been pleasantly surprised by his ring work. I just personally haven't seen him work long enough matches to really make make a judgment yet
ReplyDeleteNo worries about Reigns. Don't see any reason why he can't be there next Batista
ReplyDeleteReigns has been one of the best workers the last month or two. His spear is swank.
ReplyDeleteSeems legit.
ReplyDeletehttps://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/7890264064/h912D63C5/
I have no problem with Reigns getting the rocket push. But if they are going to do that they NEED to push Ambrose as a heel. There is just so much potential there.
ReplyDeleteBrie has improved dramatically recently.
ReplyDeleteYOU'RE TALKING ABOUT FELLATIO
ReplyDeletei bet you're talking about fellatio
see, everyone, he hates some men, too! :P
ReplyDeleteReigns/Rollins/Ambrose are forever linked now. Even if they hotshot the breakup, they can always go back to it. I guarantee you, one day the main event of WM will be a triple threat match between them.
ReplyDeleteReigns show break Kane's record this year. I think it is way too early to break them up though.
ReplyDeleteHopefully he doesn't get injured twice a year.
ReplyDeleteAmbrose as 90's Jericho would be entertaining as hell.
ReplyDeleteHopefully, she gets good enough to eventually job to Stephanie.
ReplyDeleteWhen "The Shield" debuted a year ago, I and many others felt like Reigns seemed very out of place with the two indy darlings - it didn't take long for him to prove us wrong. I think he's actually better in the ring than Ambrose.
ReplyDeleteThat said, I think we all kind of unfairly lump him in with the stereotypical "hoss", due to looking pretty large next to Ambrose and Rollins. He's really not that big, though, he's 6'3" 265 (and those are likely slightly inflated) - about the same size as Cena. Muscular, obviously, but hardly huge by wrestling standards.
Training? The will to act is everything!
ReplyDeleteI don't know that I'd go so far as to say he's better than Ambrose, but he's definitely proved me wrong in terms of how good he can be in the ring.
ReplyDeleteAnd yeah, he's actually not that big, which is a testament to how good he is at playing the big heavy hitter role. I totally buy him spearing the shit out of Big Show, while with some other guys of similar size it'd either not be believable (HHH) or it'd be a surprising feat of strength (Cena). With Reigns, I see him knock Big Show on his ass and I just think "Well, yeah, look at the guy" without even thinking about the fact that he's not super huge.
But that's the point. That things do happen organically.
ReplyDeleteHis flying clothesline is awesome too.
ReplyDelete... in bed.
ReplyDeleteIf anything Reigns is pretty much the exact size someone (or at least Vince) would want for a main event face. He's big enough where you buy him as a monster badass and the kiddies could look up to him. (Unlike that midget troll Daniel Bryan! ughh, anyway.) But he's not so big where it's impossible to make him look sympathetic against a heel, which was the problem with Diesel as a babyface champ (aside from him being awful). So Reigns is big enough to kick ass and play the superhero, but he can also make guys like Big Show and Kane (whom I assume will be main eventing for decades to come) look like huge challenges.
ReplyDeleteSo in short, yeah, Roman Reigns as face of the company. Get on board or FUCK YOU.
Man, I dont mind Ambrose, and seem to be in the minority so very well may be off base on this but I've been underwhelmed by Ambrose so far.
ReplyDeleteI won't front, I haven't seen aton of his indy or NXT stuff, a few matches and promos here and there. Maybe I expected more, based on all the hype coming in. Maybe they haven't taken the handcuffs off him as far as what he can do in his promos and matches either. I just haven't really seem anything great about him in the past year.
At this point, the only thing that makes sense for TNA is Dixie must be running some sort of "The Producers"-esque scam where she makes more money when TNA tanks. I mean, they're basically begging even their most hardcore fans to stop watching.
ReplyDeleteMy fear is he's going to get the "he's getting the title by March" push, whether he or the fans are ready for it or not.
ReplyDeleteShe had to get her foot in the door somehow.
ReplyDeleteI hope Reigns gets a gradual push - like maybe turn him face and see how the fans react to him in midcard feuds for a while. But I assume it'll be more of a "Roman Reigns - you like him now!!!" push.
ReplyDeletePacman Jones is an NFL player, more known for getting into shootouts outside strip clubs than anything he does on the field.
ReplyDeleteMaybe they should wait until the crowd starts organically cheering for him LIKE Batista. Maybe that's why Batista was a success.
ReplyDeleteHow about turning him face by using your Rumble scenario to lay the groundwork, then having Reigns officially turn at WrestleMania by helping Daniel Bryan win the title and defeat the whole HHH/Shield/Orton regime. Reigns would get a massive pop for helping Bryan.
ReplyDeleteShe's the owner of the Cleveland Indians in Major League.
ReplyDelete1. Remember the WWE doesn't turn heels face by having them help other faces. They always turn face by getting turned on by other heels. Remember that for your fantasy booking.
ReplyDeleteBut are these 'organic' face turns in most of your examples not simply them getting cheered because the fans cheering them as heels is the only way they have of showing the wwe they believe that worker should be in a better position? The fans still want heels to boo but on the whole they have no reason to boo them.
ReplyDeleteHence the plethora of half assed wishy washy face 'turns' we've had over the past few years.
Re: Rey
ReplyDeleteI've never been a huge fan of his, but I'd like the guy to at least get a proper send off. Perhaps a Rumble return, work a few Raws against guys in some "dream" matches or rematches against Punk, Bryan, etc. then slot him against Jericho at Mania for his final match since they'll likely both need something to do and it'll guarantee Rey a ***-**** match to go out on.
She rips off his jean shorts and makes him take his hat off....
ReplyDelete"Who are two women I'd hate-fuck silly?"
ReplyDeleteJudges, can we check that...
I love that they have Bryan getting huge crowd reactions and having great matches for a couple years now....but they're sold on Roman Reigns as the next big thing?
ReplyDeleteBryan's job is to help get Big Show over. So Bryan's "donated" the YES! chant to Show for now...
ReplyDeleteWell if Bryan can get those crowd reactions with that body, imagine how the crowd will react to Reigns much bigger body?
ReplyDelete:: pulling hair out a la Mankind ::
ReplyDeleteYes. Let's see the guy work some capable singles feuds before strapping that rocket to him. A prolonged Ambrose vs. Reigns feud could possibly make both guys
ReplyDeleteYup, I like it. I don't think I will like whatever we end up getting, but half the fun of pro wrestling is coming up with fun scenarios.
ReplyDeleteWow. Do you think Rollins is enough of a "WWE Guy" that he would ever get that kind of love from the company?
ReplyDeleteThis is not a shot at worst in the world but just a general critque. I love how the iwc constantly shits on Rey Mysterio. He's one of the greatest workers of ALL time, he's had hundreds of legit great matches, taken tons of crazy bumps, been a true professional, and never been over-pushed or responsible for holding any new talent back. All hes ever done to anyone is have great matches for their amusement. He also got over the Batista heel turn and million other angles by taking a grade A ass kicking. But he has gimmick that is mainly aimed at kids so he should go crawl in hole and die.
ReplyDeleteSeriously, what does it hurt to have Rey work some matches a few months out of the year until he's ready to hang it up? If he's healthy he can still go (not like he used but better than 95% of the world) and if he gets hurt none of us have to do the rehab. I know he's a guy I'd still pay money to see.
I'm biased in his favor since he's a top 5 all time favorite of mine but I think the iwc is way too biased against him. A lot of people shit on him for the mask gimmick, but then some fatso puts on a goat mask and its sooooooo edgy and deep? Also people talk shit about the 619 (my area code BTW) move being too contrived. Well why cant a dude in the yes lock just roll over-on his back? Why would a fighter stay on his knees in front of db while he kicked him 10 times. Why doesn't the guy in the punk elbow drop not just stand up? How come a guy getting tombstoned wouldn't headbutt the undertakers balls? Peoples elbow? You guys missed out on one amazing career by nit picking a guys (incredibly successful) gimmick.
Oh and lastly I could say its 2013...fucking next about hbk, Kane, Jericho, undertaker, bully ray, Christian etc also.
ReplyDeleteAnd mysterio was better than all those guys except shawn
Which makes them look like losers
ReplyDeleteHonest question: Was PacMan Jones even good at football, let alone wrestling?
ReplyDeleteThe best game he ever had was against my New york Giants...I fucking hate Adam Jones.
ReplyDeleteHe was a high Draft pick, want to say 6 or 7 overall, who showed glimpses of being real good for a few years. Eventually he kept getting in trouble, and probably stopped working at his craft IMO, so kinda just bounced around the league for years
ReplyDeleteI see. Makes no sense to me. I mean, with Lawrence Taylor, Kevin Greene, Reggie White, Fridge Perry, et al at least there was some name value because they were GOOD football players. Rodman and Malone may not have led to a good match by any definition, but at least they had name value within their sport. I'm not sure what crowd PacMan Jones is supposed to be drawing.
ReplyDelete1) I'm not a fan of the lucha style to begin with
ReplyDelete2) His knees are shot to the point where he couldn't work that style anyway.
3). No way he could be realistically be a straightforward mat wrestler. He's too small for it to be convincing, and his offense looks like it could barely bruise an ant.
4) Its not just the fact that the 619 looks like shit...it's that the opponent falling on the ropes the exact same way every match is so damn fake looking.
Yeah he's good. He came into the league as a star, and was a great punt returner for a bit. He flamed out but has made a good comeback with the Bengals and been a big reason they've made the playoffs two years in a row. Not an all time great but above average in his own era
ReplyDeleteHe's been with the Bengals since 2010... good 2nd CB/nickel CB, but not a top guy.
ReplyDeleteIs he good enough that he draws some sort of mainstream interest outside of football?
ReplyDeleteExactly!
ReplyDeleteNo.
ReplyDeleteI could see Rey having value as a tag team guy, so he could minimize the wear and tear on his body and still some of his big spots during hot tags. Otherwise, I think the guy should just hang it up and preserve what's left of his body
ReplyDeleteHis knees are shot from having 100's of great matches, and he definitely started working a more north american style with lucha high spots once he got to wcw. His offense consists of throwing his entire body at someone and really the 619 is no more fake looking than every guy laying on the mat waiting for a punk elbow. Have they ever watched film? Wouldn't they know whats happening? Stick up a leg or roll out the way
ReplyDeleteIn all fairness, that could be said about lots of guys over 37. And that's what they tried to do with him last time. I'd have no problem with that as long as he got to work a few singles matches before he retired
ReplyDeleteOdd as it sounds, I think the flap-jacket helps - it makes him look even bigger and broader than he already is.
ReplyDeleteTotally. He should go out with one more strong match with an old rival. Unfortunately, his greatest foe passed away in '05
ReplyDeleteWith a elbow drop( or any other top rope move) it would make sense. Guy gets knocked down, other guy climbs and hits a move. That's been in wrestling forever. The setup for the 619 ONLY happens in Mysterious matches. And throwing your entire body at someone only works if you are larger than an infant.
ReplyDeleteNo. But he had a great nickname and he was constantly getting in trouble off the field (I think he fired an uzi in a titty bar) so that's where hid mainstream pub came from.
ReplyDeleteDidn't ADR turn face by helping out a face?
ReplyDeleteFirst of all, I take this as a direct personal insult towards me and my family and everything I hold dear. I shall seek vengeance.
ReplyDeleteSecondly, I agree-- I love Rey Mysterio. I love the gimmick, the 619 (yeah it's ridiculous, but it's WRESTLING who cares), and yeah he's maybe the most consistently entertaining TV worker ever. Plug Rey in to some random singles or tag or triple threat or whatever match on Raw or Smackdown, and it'll be fun and have great crowd heat. Agreed.
So I'm not saying I wanna see Rey demasked and retire because "Fuck Mysterio!" specifically, but because I really would like to see his generation move on. Rey's been on my TV since what, 95? 96? He's breaking down, he can't stay on the roster for more than a few weeks at a time. It's time to MOVE ON. And therefore, I'd really like to see them use that opportunity to make a star. I didn't propose that scenario because I think Rey is a piece of shit, I proposed it because I think it'd be a cool way of using Rey's heat to make someone new.
I wanna see the new generation get to just demolish the old one on their way out. I'm sick of all the circle jerk goodbyes (HBK retires Flair, Taker retires HBK, End of an Era match, Rey retires JBL, Edge retires after beating ADR) that hammer home the point that the legends are better than everyone else. I wanna see these guys retire after truly putting over someone new.
And I think Ambrose wearing Rey's mask to the ring before cockily hanging it on the ringpost like a deer's head would be fucking cool.
This might be a minor concern, but has Roman Reigns ever demonstrated any sort of character, personality, or charisma, that might make me enjoy him for reasons other than physically dominating a fake sport?
ReplyDeleteI would happily sign up to never see Taker (after he drops the streak to Cena), Kane, Show, HBK, HHH clogging up the show ever again.
ReplyDeleteBully, yeah, who cares I'm not clammoring to hear "Do you know who I ammm?" on Raw.
As for Jericho and especially Christian, to me the main difference between them and that first group is that they are being used correctly--- they put new guys over. I mean, Christian is a jobber, and Jericho has won like what, 5 matches (all against Kofi Kingston) in his last two returns? But sure, if taht means I never have to see DX/Show/Kane etc ever again, I'd be up for them getting destroyed and kicked aside too.
So yeah, it's 2013. FUCKING NEXT.
He has all of those things in the same way Goldberg did.
ReplyDeleteHe helped out Ricardo. But then ran over Santa Claus the next week. But other than ADR, I honestly don't remember the last time.
ReplyDeleteI see mysterio is the same vein as Jericho and Christian. I know he got the belt for a cup of coffee in 2011 but otherwise I don't see him coming back and doing much more than putting guys over. If they job out Seth Rollins or someone like to him that would be bad but I don't think rey has ever shown much ego
ReplyDeleteHe was actually very, very good before his arrest. After that, he came back and was just pretty good. He was a star as a kick and punt returner (second only to Devin Hester at the time, probably), was one of the most dangerous guys with the ball in his hand after an interception, got put in on offense sometimes and made something happen every time he touched the ball, and, in what I consider to be an extremely telling yet underpublicized stat, had one of the lowest completion-against-target percentages of any cornerback in football. He was a stud player. I am a Titans fan. I detest him.
ReplyDeleteVery true. My thinking with Rey is just that, unlike Jericho, he seems incredibly broken down. He really, really doesn't seem to have much left. And since he's SUCH a beloved superhero and since the mask really is something I'd rank as having more value than a world title (it's closer to The Streak), I really want to see them get all the juice out of his retirement. A heel beating an unmasking Rey in his final match makes that guy (if it's the right guy, which Ambrose seems to be) for life.
ReplyDeleteI'd much rather see that then for Rey to go over someone, or for Rey to have a great goodbye match with Jericho or Kane or another legend. Yeah Rey vs a legend would be feel-good and we'd all clap or whatever, but it'd just further cement that the old generation is what really matters.
I don't count Christmas Raws as in canon unless it has any impact on future episodes.
ReplyDeleteHe has charisma, but lord knows if he can cut a promo.
ReplyDelete[repost] Apparently she swallowed enough of DBry's baby gravy to absorb some of his wrestling ability.
ReplyDeleteThat would explain why no one likes John Cena's girlfriend as much. [/repost]
He should have had a token run with the tag belts with Sin Cara and helped revitalized the tag division but he can't stay healthy.
ReplyDeleteIsn't Cara injured right now as well?
ReplyDeleteTake a bow sir. Well done
ReplyDeleteThe difference is that 84-85 Vince used celebs who were actually popular at the time and they ended up helping the WWF draw tons of money.
ReplyDeleteRey Mysterio's return is the Duke Nukem Forever of wrestling: It's always perpetually coming, but we know it's only going to be disappointing when it comes to fruition.
ReplyDeleteEasily. Dude will make a great babyface and due to their association, all 3 will rise together. I don't think any of them go Jannetty.
ReplyDeleteHe does have this thing about him that makes people look in his direction. Even in the tag matches and he's on the apron, there's a good portion of the crowd checking him out just seeing what he's up to. He doesn't do much, but everything he does, he does very well, and his timing is insanely good.
ReplyDeleteHe seems to be a pretty decent worker, or his weaknesses have been disguised pretty damn well.
ReplyDeleteUh, he's charismatic in the ring. He acts like a badass and is believable while doing it. Oh, and he's got a pretty decent power moveset.
I know this is depressing to hear, but it has to be said.
ReplyDeleteBryan is an incredibly talented guy in pretty much every aspect (okay, he's not a fantastic promo) but he looks ridiculous.
Reigns radiates cool. He looks and acts like a video game character. There is an appeal to that.
Bryan turned face by...uh...befriending Kane?
ReplyDeleteNo it just feels that way!
ReplyDeleteNot like he's been entertaining for years, all his matches have been the same old shit since he come to WWE.
ReplyDelete/thread
ReplyDeleteI thought that was Lita who sucked her way in!
ReplyDeleteMaybe they can get Rebecca Black, the chick who sang that horrible Friday song, to show up Impact! Bring back Jenna from Survivor, or the one from Jersey Shore!
ReplyDeleteThree words....Clara Peller & Herb!
ReplyDeleteYou can just safely assume that is the case at any time.
ReplyDeleteYeah, that's a fair enough assessment. And I'm not saying the two getting pushed is mutually-exclusive. Only that Bryan, regardless of his look, has been the most popular guy around for a long time and they refused to run with him. Reigns has yet to draw any of that groundswell of support, but is going to get pushed hard regardless
ReplyDeleteI think Ambrose hasn't had any fantastic promos or matches yet. But he's definitely got a character that he rocks whenever he's on screen. Once you have a character you can comfortably play you just need material to feed to it.
ReplyDeleteThat would be pretty awesome.
ReplyDeleteShe needs a few more signature offensive moves, but she's no longer immediate fast-forward bad. I think she could have a watchable match with somebody who isn't the best female talent they've had for years.
ReplyDeleteNot really. He was still a heel in the early part of THN, and didn't really "turn" until attack by The Shield.
ReplyDeleteYou had me at "fired an uzi in a titty bar". That should be his wrestling gimmick.
ReplyDeleteI dunno, he was getting face pops since the beginning of that pairing.
ReplyDeleteWhat do you consider a turn?
Bossman turning face by telling Million Dollar Man to screw off.
ReplyDeleteBatista's thumb's down to HHH and subsequent powerbomb through the table.
ReplyDeleteYea, I agree. I've seen enough of his other stuff to know the talent is there. I guess I just bought into the initial hype with him...wanted /expected a little more from him in this initial run.
ReplyDeleteVirgil finally sticking up for himself.
ReplyDeleteShemus coming out and fighting Mark Henry.
ReplyDeleteRefuse to run with him? Uh...what? I know he didn't supplant Cena, but Bryan did way better than we could ever have reasonably expected from him. Just sit back a minute and see what Dragon has accomplished for himself.
ReplyDeletea) WWE champ
b) Main-evented multiple PPVs
c) Beat Orton and Cena clean as a sheet owned by someone besides Jeff Vinson
d) Got the physical better of HBK and HHH
e) Is banging a mega-hottie
And you need the big bruisers as well as the indy workhorses. Variety is good. As Jimmy E said, some guys can't be throwing armdrags in the second match. There's room for the Batista's and Warrior's and Sting's. Some guys the promotion looks at and decides are stars, and that's okay.
All those turns were initiated by a heel as well. Babyfaces are pretty much always passive characters. They respond to the actions of the dynamic Heel, but that's just Storytelling 101.
ReplyDeleteI don't see Bryan deciding to fight the new badasses on the block as any different to those other scenarios. Heels start shit and babyfaces decide to handle their business.
Punk and Bryan took some time to get into their groove too. And the Shield have had one of the best first years on the main-roster EVER!
ReplyDeletePlus Ambrose can't exactly cut a promo about killing his crush's dog or being forced to sell crack or about the time his prostitute mom got robbed or absorbing the essence of his title belt by snorting it (I actually have no real idea what the fuck he was talking about in that one). There are restrictions for PG audiences and television and arena shows that he didn't have before.
And his day to day "I'm a badass and you won't beat me" promos are perfectly acceptable to actually good, so he hasn't exactly shit the bed when it's come to talking, he just hasn't really had the platform to do something incredible.
And he was never a transcendent worker the way Bryan, Joe, Styles or Daniels are. So him not immediately tearing the roof off in solo matches is expected.
Yes. You need a heel to turn face against.
ReplyDeleteI'm just saying that the Bryan turn was well handled. He got popular, and he finally did something decent.
ReplyDeleteThey could've done something a bit more concrete, but I think it worked out fine.
Ziggler's turn on the other hand...Jesus Christ that was awful.
That was a well played shot at me. That being said, fuck you.
ReplyDeleteEn garde motherfucker.
ReplyDeleteIf you watch him, he's got really great reactions to things, like when Ambrose dissed him and Rollins, and there's a picture of him staring at the belt when Orton raises it up. He's got a real good sense for those kinds of things.
ReplyDeleteIt's just whether he can cut a promo at all
Those dislocated fingers take forever to heal
ReplyDeleteHe doesn't even need to cut a promo though. I'll give you his other comparison, Batista. Fans like to think that THEY turned Batista, but in reality, he was doing the things you were praising Reigns for... but even better, and more subtle. Batista was the PERFECT guy to get put over Triple H in 2005... but the guy couldn't work a decent match or cut a decent promo for at least 2 years later. Then when he finally brings it all together, we only get it for about 3 months and he retires.
ReplyDeleteJosh Cribbs says hi
ReplyDeleteHonestly, guy should just quit. Achieved a hell of a lot (especially for a guy of his size), getting old, incredibly banged up, must've banked some decent tender in his time, and a return at this point will almost certainly result in him damaging his rep further.
ReplyDeleteWhat about Big E's turn? He stood up against Heyman's goons when Heyman called him a green rookie and helped Punk fight them off.
ReplyDeleteDidn't see it but yeah that's a good face turn
ReplyDeleteYeah his knees are fucking shot, he's not in good shape, and he has to pump himself with Wellness-violating substances to give himself a chance to keep going every day. I'd rather him hang it up too.
ReplyDeleteI saw the topic and I immediately thought of Chinese Democracy.
ReplyDeleteAnd actual Chinese democracy, but that hasn't come yet.
There are a wealth of reasons! coughcoughpatpattersoncoughcough
ReplyDeleteAnd I say, "Hi, what of it, check the stats."
ReplyDeleteI'd say that his "character" of only half-begrudgingly not being the leader of his faction is really good - reading between the lines, you can tell that he respects Ambrose's natural leadership abilities, but doesn't always care for his big mouth and rash decisions. Like others have said, he's pretty good at never forgetting who and what he's supposed to be playing; he's always giving little reactions to everything around him, instead of just standing blank-faced when he's in the background of a promo or standing on the apron during a tag match.
ReplyDeleteOn a more "basic" level, he's a pretty good brawler with some explosiveness in his moves, and has good timing and presence. He's decent on the mic, as well.