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"What if..."

Greetings BoD,

Ive been giving the keys to the castle!  I now know how HHH feels.

Taking some mandatory time off from the E.R., so have some time to contribute around here.  Full disclosure...a few weeks ago, Fuj had mentioned running with a regular "what if" type of thread, an idea I really liked. Since wrestling is a world where success and opportunities are often dictated by numerous factors (in ring ability, mic work, politics, others ability to help put you over, injury, etc.), I find "what ifs" fascinating.  Since Fuj is to lazy, you know protecting our country and stuff to write this, I'd figure I would give it a go.

We will start with a basic one, with huge repercussions...what if Rock never goes away from the WWE?  He started taking major time off around 02...does he stay "the unquestioned guy" from 02ish - present day, giving him a Hoganesque run on top?

- Does Vince push him aside in favor of Cena?

- Does he clearly supplant Hogan and Austin in terms of historical "A+ ness?"

- Would WWE have done better business  than they did during HHHs 03-04 reign?

- The most fascinating to me, whats the political dynamic between HHH, who was really coming into power at the time, and Rock, who'd be the unquestioned top guy?  Would they begrudgingly play nice?  Would Rock eventually get run out by HHH?  Would a Bret/HBK dynamic eventually emerge, splitting the locker room?

Lets hear your thoughts.  If you have a "what if", email it to me and Ill post it.

mhaas42@gmail.com






Comments

  1. I'm guessing if Rock stays then they have HHH as 'the guy' on Raw and Rock as 'the guy' on Smackdown. I'm thinking giving them each a title, having them as 'the guy' on a distinct show, stops any quarrels. The brand split keeps things ticking over, new stars get a chance to shine, and you get Rock as the 'selfless' champion while HHH continues pretending he's the reincarnation of Ric Flair.


    The Rock would, I'm guessing, become a heel when people got sick of him as a face and keep alternating between them until he hit the Shawn Michaels/Undertaker 'we can't boo someone we respect that much' level, at which point you do a unification match between him and HHH at Wrestlemania.

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  2. It's hard to really imagine that because Rocky just got too big for the business and I can't picture a reality where he's been around constantly.

    But if he did, then I think they program him against the Aitches during the reign of terror rather than running with lower card guys like RVD and Booker just out of necessity.
    I think that at some point fans start to outgrow stuff a bit and he has to turn heel again, reinvent himself, and by now he would be in that respected veteran who can't be anything other than a face role.

    I also think that as HHH consolidates his power, Rocky goes into semi retirement and opens a gym, or dabbles in movies to a lesser degree, or whatever. I don't see him still slumming it on the road all these years later unless he's really bad with money.

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  3. WTF?!?!?!? Man Fuj really is trying to keep me under he glass ceiling!

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  4. Ha, no conspiracy. He mentioned doing this, I asked him to do it since I really liked the idea. He said he didnt want to so I figured id take his idea.

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  5. Totally off topic but I see flair4dagold is gone from the top posters list, and I haven't seen him in ages. I don't think a day went by for years that he didn't post - did I miss a meltdown?

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  6. That was all a part of his plan!

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  7. No. He just posted like 2 months ago and said he'd been really busy.

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  8. No meltdown that I know of. Say a commemt he posted a few weeks ago where he was just "really busy."

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  9. HHH level politicking...

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  10. If he never left people would be bored and sick of him by now. Going out on top is always a great idea. Its the same reason that people think Nirvana were geniuses but are tired of Pearl Jam. Or the same reason the Pixies are seen as an amazing and influential band while REM lasted long enough to become just another boring band full of old men...

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  11. Exactly! Can't keep his spot based on his abilities!

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  12. People were beginning to tire of his act towards the end of his run anyway.

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  13. Truthfully I don't really want the responsibility of writing a column or anything like that... but it would be nice to be able to throw up a thread when others drop the ball (Looking at YOU Bayless!)... but I guess we can count on you for that now.

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  14. Vince runs with who he likes until the tread is bare though. Just look at Cena now...

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  15. Full disclosure:


    1. I'm isn't lazy
    2. I didn't want any backlash from becoming a minion and didn't want to hurt the BoD business.
    3. I have been a silent contributor for years so why have the posting rights?
    4. I'm just not really a good writer to begin with. Like I have stated in the past, when it comes to wrestling, it just comes out a jumbled mess. I would rather let the people who can articulate wrestling better than me, while I just throw out ideas.

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  16. Thank goodness we have a doctor posting; now, let's get down to real business.


    I have this nagging pain on the right side of my torso every time I eat. I also feel a little lightheaded. Do you think I have cancer?


    Kidding. But I do imagine that every living doctor gets pumped for free advice and diagnoses while out of the office.

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  17. In this scenario, does Dwayne Johnson not become a movie star at all, or does he book a semi-low profile role from time to time (maybe like Piper's film career) so he still has some sway in that world?


    Since that plays a big part. A Rock that's more or less dependent on wrestling for his main source of fame and income is more subject to HHH's political games....but then again, by this time the Rock was simply so over that he was already seemingly beyond any interference that HHH could throw his way. The brand split definitely also plays a part as Rock would get Smackdown to himself while HHH got Raw....another interesting side question would be if Undertaker becomes Smackdown's staple guy if Rock is there or if he's moved to Raw and becomes a main Triple H adversary in 2002-03.


    I have little doubt that the Rock would've continued to be an even bigger megastar had he stayed since the guy just had It. He easily would've been able to freshen up his act or maybe even toss in a heel turn to do so, a la when he reinvented himself as Hollywood Rock in 2003.

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  18. Sorry man, he was a posting buddy, so he got a push to the card of the card.


    You declined my workout.

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  19. Was being sarcastic about "lazy"

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  20. When I was younger my line was "im a doctor, so any interest I have in touching your body is strictly for sceince." Youd be surprised how often it would work

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  21. fuck me... Im half sleep


    "I'm isn't lazy"


    smh...

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  22. YankeesHoganTripleHFanNovember 3, 2013 at 9:31 AM

    I just watched the Hogan/Rock match so it's interesting that you post this now. The reason Hulkamania lasted as long as it did was because you didn't see Hogan every week. There was no Raw we got Superstars and Wrestling Challange...the most you would get was a Hogan interview on Pipers Pit or Brother Love. Raw changed the game, and it REALLY changed the game with the Monday Night Wars. Suddenly we got to see the top stars every week, and yes you see the same thing over and over again it gets old. Not to say he was lucky or anything but that 10 months Austin was hurt was a boon to his career, (we got the HHH/Austin at No Way Out and WM 17 out of it and like it or not heel Austin and the What? stuff was pretty damm funny) Long story short The Rock understood all of that, knew his face character was played out and knew when to cash out, (to say nothing of the fact that his body was still intact and could do things like action movies.) But damm....Rock was always a fantastic heel. When the fans got tired of his face act it would have been fun to boo him for years.

    As for the Rock/Hunter relationship...they would have played nice, for the sake of business. Because as business people look how smart they are...Rock became a multi million dollar movie star...and Hunter, who loved wrestling since he was a teenager, gets to part own the WWE....he got everything he ever wanted.

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  23. Imagine how great it would have been if Hollywood Rock lasted longer than the 3 months it did? I can't imagine Rock finding motivation to stay on as a full-time player after around 2005, but 2003 and 2004 would have been some of his best stuff ever. He had all of the tools, but add experience with that, and he would be on a completely different plane of greatness than anyone else on that roster (sans HBK and Guerrero at that time... but shit, imagine feuds with both of those guys!).

    For anyone who wants a nice trip back in time, someone spliced together the entire Hollywood Rock and Hurricane feud into one video. Rock, at that time, was perhaps the only person who make you happy to boo him, to boo him with a smile. Just so enjoyable.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ztwfe5vgPgQ

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  24. Yea, Ive been saying forever that a 10 year Hogan run isnt the same as a 10 year Rock or Cena run, do to how much more saturated the market is with wrestling now. Youre also forgetting that Hogan would work maybe 4 ppvs vs 12 now.

    My counter point to those who just assume Rock gets pushed out is look at how long Vince sticks with what he knows draws. Cena now, Takers streak, Hogan, etc. Im not so sure Vince just doesnt run with Rock for 10 years, like Cena now

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  25. I know you were being sarcastic.


    I was just "full disclosuring" as well.


    For the most part, I didn't want the BoD to think that I was using my "status" to pimp my own agendas around here and drive away hits and viewership because really at the end of the day, besides facebook, skype with my chick, this is my only wrestling outlet. and my source of just chilling out and talking about wrestling. But the secret is, I'd love to be a contributor, I just dont think Im good enough to do so.


    I like this place way too much to even think of being a reason it gets fucked up. Thats why the sabbaticals (cuz I know I can get abrasive at times)


    So, I'll throw the ideas out, if anybody can write, by all means take my idea and run with it.

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  26. So if you are HHH in this scenario... who does that make Stephanie... I am afraid to follow this through to its logical conclusion...

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  27. Gotcha. I dont know if people would think youre agenda driven but didnt want to take your idea without giving credit.

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  28. Please this is basically you doing an appearence on the OfficeFarva show and teaching him your finisher just to get a paycheck to cover that nights bar bill.


    (Note: Sorry to make you the Miz in this situation Farva, but it was to good to pass up)

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  29. I dont know if its that or i just didnt wanna fuck up any money Scott makes from here.

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  30. Great clip. Thanks.

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  31. No meltdown, it seems like there's a change in the guard.


    Actually Scott, is it anyway you can put the top commenters back to 5 as it used to be?

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  32. Christ you get posting powers now Farva? Scraping the bottom of the BOD barrel for mods I see. ;)

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  33. Its alright, Id have a fucking awesome looking dad and get it thrust things into Maryse

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  34. Opening act curtain jerker! No powers to moderate, nor do I want them, just post.

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  35. Stranger in the AlpsNovember 3, 2013 at 9:52 AM

    The Rock doesn't leave, Triple H still comes into power, and the two butt heads many times, leading to The Rock leaving anyway because, frankly, enough of the bullshit, and Hollywood still exists, and they see a star in The Rock. He can't turn down the money and even bigger fame that being a WWE star will not allow him to have. So....it was inevitable that The Rock left. I also think that Cena doesn't become tippy top guy so soon, and The Rock never returns for that Wrestlemania payout. Just because of Triple H. H would like to bury the hatcher for the sake of business, but Rock turns them down.

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  36. My premise was he still does Hollywood stuff but is pretty much a constant wwe regular, like Piper

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  37. - Does Vince push him aside in favor of Cena?


    Nope.



    - Does he clearly supplant Hogan and Austin in terms of historical "A+ ness?"




    Nope. If he didn't do that while he was on top during the hottest period in company history, a few extra years wouldn't change that.




    - Would WWE have done better business than they did during HHHs 03-04 reign?




    For sure.



    - The most fascinating to me, whats the political dynamic between HHH,
    who was really coming into power at the time, and Rock, who'd be the
    unquestioned top guy?


    Triple H. Rock never cared that much about putting people over or not being "the guy."



    - Would they begrudgingly play nice?


    Yep.



    - Would Rock
    eventually get run out by HHH?


    No. HHH is smart enough to know that having Rock around means more $$$ for all.



    - Would a Bret/HBK dynamic eventually
    emerge, splitting the locker room?


    No.

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  38. I still consider my favorite Hurricane moment Royal Rumble 2002.


    3... 2... 1... BUZZ! Hurricane comes out. Austin and HHH double clothesline/collision. Hurricane runs in and poses while Austin and HHH start to recover. HHH stands, grabbed by throat. Austin stands, grabbed by throat. Uncomfortable few moments, as Hurricane realizes he's in WAY over his head. Austin points at Hurricane, Austin and HHH each grab a handful of hair, bye bye Hurricane.


    It's one of those moments that still gives me a chuckle.

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  39. No, that would be me getting posting powers.

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  40. Hitting just the last point... Bret and HHH WERE polar opposites, not only character wise but also in real life. Rock and HHH might disagree from time to time, but they're not THAT fundamentally different.

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  41. YankeesHoganTripleHFanNovember 3, 2013 at 10:14 AM

    Farva you and I are in complete agreement. The Rock would have been pushed for 10 years. The difference is this...Rock would have turned heel/face 4/5 times in that 10 years....cause thats what they did with their stars back then... and it didn't really matter because they were getting money from everywhere, and the fans of the Rock are still going to pay to see him. Remember Rock left a year before Cena became the face of the company and I think at some point the business model changed...the thinking being if your top star is selling T-shits don't make him a bad guy.




    Look at what they did with Hunter, HHH was a face for 6 years then he turned heel because thats what the story line called for, the people who love Triple H, (me) will still root for him, the people who hate Triple H, (everyone else,) will hate him even more, but either way he is not selling T-shits anymore, yet I am still invested in the character because turning heel and face was just the way it happened back then.



    I guess this is long winded but my point is this. The Rock would have been pushed for 10 years and turned heel/face several times because that's the way they did it back then. Cena get's pushed as only a face because thats the way they do it now.

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  42. Also, mini-TJ


    72,578 votes, 95-5 Jericho. THE COMEBACK CONTINUES!

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  43. That's why the Rumble is so great. It is put together in a way that you can get a little comedy, a little nostalgia, a few great spots, start a new feud, take a feud to another level, and elevate people all in one match.

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  44. What If? The Rock was the one who got injured after Summerslam '98 and HHH became the Corporate Champ at Survivor Series that year?

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  45. Im really curious as to why wwe would ever put this up.

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  46. Sometimes, I will schedule the post when I have plans but it completely slipped my mind yesterday. Guess the Saturday Night Thread was more popular than I thought

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  47. Looks like someone just made captain. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPDG5ZctBEE

    I don't see the Rock sticking around. If Hollywood didn't work out then he'd probably do the B or C level thing like Austin.

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  48. I read through Meltzer or someone, don't remember, that HHH was supposed to be the corporate champ before he got hurt. Not sure how true it is but it makes some sense.

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  49. Interesting thought.. so If Cena doesn't get pushed so soon, would he be getting the reactions he is getting now (staleness booing)?

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  50. Dont know how well that angle gets over with HHH as the corporate guy. He wasnt great on the mic or have any real "star" power at the time, so would have just been overshadowed by Vince, kinda like Orton now.

    The great thing about the Rock in that role was he was still so dynamic, he didnt come across as strictly a Vince lackey.

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  51. Charismatic e-Negro Jef VinsonNovember 3, 2013 at 10:54 AM

    Let's see if/how the WWE spins this.

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  52. Charismatic e-Negro Jef VinsonNovember 3, 2013 at 10:55 AM

    I think that is why they made Smackdown, no?

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  53. I don't think HHH was ready for the role at that point but the storyline made sense. The degenerate grows up and goes corporate cause he's ready to start getting that real money which is what happened in real life. Strange

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  54. Just shows how well Triple H has gotten over as a heel! See, the Bryan storyline was worth it afterall.

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  55. He probably would have gotten fans like us on his side, lamenting how WWE keeps burying its fresh young star John Cena in favor of keeping Rock/HHH on top.

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  56. OK, so assuming this WHAT IF says that Rock A) Never makes it in Hollywood, not even on a B-movie level and therefore B) Is totally dependent on being a pro wrestler for his living...I wonder if Rock ever leaves WWE to I guess go to TNA?


    I mean you figure that the Rock/HHH dynamic would be problematic at the least, but since HHH is the boss' son-in-law and all I don't think Rock's star power would necessarily win the day in their confrontations. Plus John Cena becoming a star is just inevitable no matter who the fuck was there— the dude just has it, no matter how much we hate him. Plus he was driven AND he's pretty much Vince's wet dream of what a babyface ace should look like and act like. So you figure the Cena-as-lead-face happens at some point anyway.


    SOOOO, maybe Rock becomes the odd man out and decides to take a shitload of money to become the face of what would essentially be his own vanity promotion out of Florida? Remember, TNA wasn't nearly the joke then that it is now, so perhaps the idea of working with the then-fresh stars like Samoa Joe, Styles, Daniels etc would have appealed to him, especially if he was given total creative control of everything he was doing. (Which, I mean, he obviously would have been.) He might have seen it as his Hogan-rebuilding-WCW phase of his career, and a chance to beat HHH at his own game. So yeah, maybe.

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  57. The Rock sticking around is only good if his a heel for a good portion of the 00's. He would have been great on Smackdown as the main heel instead of JBL. Extended feuds with guys like Flair, Benoit, Lesnar, Undertaker, Edge, etc. would have been great.

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  58. Excellent point on JBL— there's no way in hell he gets that title reign, or even anything other than US Title level, if Rock stays around. In fact I wonder if things may have worked out with Rock getting a crazy year long heel title run on Smackdown and then being the one who puts over Cena as early as Mania 21.
    That year really would have been an insane passing of the torch, with Rock and HHH losing titles to Cena and Batista.

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  59. With Rock holding the top spot, that might give Cena more time to be a cool midcard rebel face/heel. Remember around the time that he turned face to join the Benoit/Angle team at Survivor Series, he shot an angle where he and Benoit had cleared the ring of Heyman's thugs and then he hit an F5 on Benoit to establish himself as a badass loner (like Austin). The FU was edited off TV and Cena was from then on established as the squeaky clean face that we know and love today. At the time there wasn't a clear top guy on Smackdown (an A+ of you will), so they began grooming Cena for that role. If Rock were occupying that role, Cena might have been able to take time to develop his character and maintained the edge that his character once had.



    After Wrestlemania 20, Cena was given time to grow with the US title, but he took on a generic babyface character but gradually distanced himself from the profane gangsta' persona that had gotten him over. Eddy couldn't hold the top spot so JBL was given the Honkytonk heel run as a placeholder to eventually put Cena over. I'll say JBL was a decent heel champ, but he was unable to create a memorable Wrestlemania angle or match to kick off the Cena era. It never felt like he "made" Cena in giving him the title, JBL clearly wasn't in a position to do so.



    However, imagine if the Rock had held that belt the entire time. Perhaps first grabbing it after turning face from his "Hollywood" persona. As always with his face-turns the fans would initially be rabidly behind him. Rock reigns as the WWE's corporately endorsed star, while Cena is a standards and practices nightmare on the undercard. Eventually arrogance begins to overtake the Rock and he loses touch with the fans while Cena's refusal to conform to the mold of a safe TV star thrills the fans. As the face of the promotion, the Rock calls Cena out for his behavior, dresses him down on TV and tells him to shape up or ship out. Cena responds with an FU. The next week Rock enlists the aid of WWE security to viciously beat Cena into the injured list. Cena comes back, works through some obstacle opponents, and eventually gets the WM 21 match against the Rock for the title.

    Now this is a feud that could have built to a star-making Wrestlemania match. TVPG was on its way no matter what, but I still think it might have been possible to mold a more interesting version of Cena if they'd taken more time with the character. If the WWE had a surefooted star like the Rock to rely on at the time, Cena might have risen in a more cavalier fashion.

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  60. The stuff Id want to see is some of what you mentioned, Rock working with some of the up and comers...Rock/Edge, Rock/Orton, a Rock/Batista feud. Rock would have made those guys look great.

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  61. I was just thinking how cool Rock / Eddie would have been instead of Rock/JBL. I was not a JBL fan and I'm not sure why his run is looked upon so positively, it was turrible.

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  62. Exactly. Back in 2002 Rock was looked at the same way Cena is now, except Cena is a better wrestler. *ducks*

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  63. Rock was the Ric Flair of WWE and should have been kept heel most of the time. If you can bear going back and watching TV from the Alliance era, you will see Rock is clearly a much better worker than Cena.

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  64. Just turrible Ernie. I think its because people expected NOTHING from that character, so when he turned out to be servicable, they give him some added props. I thought he was killing it on the mic at a point but his matches sucked.

    A Rock/Eddie feud is one of the few things Im really annoyed we missed out on

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  65. He had the Cabinet though. That was a pretty great stable with JBL as Flair, the Bashems as Arn and Tully, and Orlando Jordan as Barry Windham. What a fantastic collection of talent. It's a shame they flamed out so quickly, would have loved to have seen them turn face and take on Evolution in a Wargames match.

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  66. Man, I somehow forgot about them.

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  67. I could totally see TNA doing a feud based on Samoa Joe hitting someone with a car on behalf of the Rock.

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  68. 'Memorable' would not be a good adjective to describe them.

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  69. *in best John Cena voice* how about "poopy?"

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  70. Horseshoe was also a cabinet member for the WCW Saturday night fans.

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  71. Makes sense. SmackDown was, afterall, originally "The Rock's Show"

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  72. JBL could have been a tremendous IC/US title level heel feuding with Cena though

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  73. If they had gone with HHH as the Corporate champ, I wonder where that leaves the Rock, who was rapidly becoming the #2 babyface that summer/fall of '98. I'd assume HHH and Foley do the series that Rock-Foley ended up doing. Rock was ready to be shot to the moon, but Austin was getting the belt back at Wrestlemania regardless I'm sure. HHH-Austin as the WM15 main event I would assume, but I wonder what Rock ends up doing at Wrestlemania if he's never corporate champ and stays a face that whole time

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  74. Good point. I have no idea where Rock goes at that point. My initial reaction was theyd still go Rock/Austin at 15, since those were by far their biggest two stars, but then how do you pay off the corporatiom thing?

    I dont think HHH is over enough by WM 15 to put him in the main event.

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  75. Luther Reigns? I didn't remember that. He would be a much better Windham surrogate.

    Did you know: Luther Reigns is the father of current WWE superstar Roman Reigns?

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  76. How do I install me wwe app?

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  77. IIRC Smackdown was going to be an all Divas show. Sable was insufferable in 1999 I can't imagine how bad that'd be.

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  78. - Does Vince push him aside in favor of Cena?
    Cena will wait a few years for his push



    - Does he clearly supplant Hogan and Austin in terms of historical "A+ ness?"




    Austin Yes, Hogan no.



    - Would WWE have done better business than they did during HHHs 03-04 reign?




    Smackdown would, for the reason described below. Raw would still suck during this time period



    - The most fascinating to me, whats the political dynamic between HHH,
    who was really coming into power at the time, and Rock, who'd be the
    unquestioned top guy? Would they begrudgingly play nice? Would Rock
    eventually get run out by HHH? Would a Bret/HBK dynamic eventually
    emerge, splitting the locker room?




    If Rock wasn't out making movies every year, and was a threat to HHH, Triple H would make sure Dwayne's candy ass was isolated on UPN. Therefore, there would be little conflict, because they'd have little interaction. Therefore Raw would be the same, but Smackdown would be the Rock's Show. Triple H still gets to main event wrestlemania most of the time, because he is the game of course.

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  79. I WAS watching back then.My point still stands.I agree that Rock was a better heel than face but overall I didn't care for him as a wrestler ( promo-wise is a different story).

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  80. This is a joke right? The Cabinet and Angle/Reigns/Jindrak were almost as bad Los Boriquas/DOA... except it was the main event.

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  81. The Love-Matic Grampa!November 3, 2013 at 5:01 PM

    1. Probably not, but Cena's time was inevitable. The real question is, does he become Rock's Sting or HHH's.


    2. Not touching that "A+" mess with a ten-foot pole, thank you very much.


    3. It all depends on who gets programmed with Rock and whether HHH shares the wealth. If HHH gets HBK and Goldberg and RVD and Rock gets stuck with the likes of JBL and Luther Reigns, I could see business staying about the same. But if Jericho and Eddy are Rock's foils along with a rapidly emerging Edge, then you've got something.


    4. I think both guys are savvy enough not to let things devolve into a Bret/HBK situation, and Vince would be smart enough to keep them on separate brands. However, it would be interesting to see who would win out in terms of working with the rising new talents. Would HHH see Cena getting over and try to get him drafted to RAW? Would Rock refuse to put someone over on SD! if they've already jobbed clean to HHH on RAW (and vice-versa)? The Draft certainly would have been more compelling every year, that's for sure.

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  82. I definitely consider the 2002 edition of the "Rumble" to be my favorite, thanks to spots like that - it just had a perfect mix of comedy, drama, nostalgia, and "Holy Shit!" moments.

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  83. Face Rock vs heel Big Show, maybe?

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  84. Yeah, you're probably right. Hard to say if the Corporate Champion thing would have put HHH over the top as a legit main event heel

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