"What if time" mofos. This is geared mostly for the old school heads and the wrestling historians we have here on the BoD. I've read everything I can on this topic, but since I was 1 at the time, I ask this question mostly out of ignorance...
What if Hulk Hogan chooses to stay with the AWA in 1983?
Things to consider:
- Is Vince still successful in going national without Hogan?
- Was WWF the dominant territory promotion at the time, and was expansion inevitable with or without Hogan?
- Most interesting to me, who does Vince choose to be the face of the expansion if Hogan is not around?
- Is the first WM as successful without Hogan?
Fun fact: Wikipedia claims Vince wanted Hogan to color his hair red upon his original WWF stint.
Like I said, I ask this question mostly out of ignorance so will digress to you guys.
What if Hulk Hogan chooses to stay with the AWA in 1983?
Things to consider:
- Is Vince still successful in going national without Hogan?
- Was WWF the dominant territory promotion at the time, and was expansion inevitable with or without Hogan?
- Most interesting to me, who does Vince choose to be the face of the expansion if Hogan is not around?
- Is the first WM as successful without Hogan?
Fun fact: Wikipedia claims Vince wanted Hogan to color his hair red upon his original WWF stint.
Like I said, I ask this question mostly out of ignorance so will digress to you guys.
I find Moat interesting, as well! Especially when you need to figure out the logistics for setting up the trench, measuring the length and depth of the trench, etc.
ReplyDeleteWait, what are we talking about, again?
Fixed. I gotta stop doing these on my phone
ReplyDeleteThe WWF still would of been succesful without Hulk in the expansion, it just would of took longer. No other owner or promoter had the vision that VKM did as most were way too old and set in their ways. Even someone like Watts who was young enough or Crockett just didn't know how to market or be ruthless like VKM did.
ReplyDeleteWho would of been the guy to build around? Hard to say really. Possibly Sarge, he was the #2 behind Hulk as it was in 84. Snuka has been talked about but he wasn't fresh. Kerry Von Erich is another name. I just don't think he had the drive to do what Hulk did or the talking ability and then you have the drug habit. At the end of the day Hulk would of came eventually like every other major star did for the most part.
Wikipedia is wrong on the date for Hulk to dye his hair red. That was during his first run, not the second one. During his first run the WWF still played the ethnic card, so they wante Hulk to look Irish.
The NWA was considered the top promotion which a bunch of top territories worked under
Yea, wiki had it right. I misread it. Thanks
ReplyDeleteAnother thing to add is VKM already started expanding in early 83 without Hulk by doing shows in LA. Was it sucessful? Not really, but it started getting that name out there slowly.
ReplyDeleteThe WWF being in a major market like NY also helped him go national compared to somewhere like the Carolinas.
Vince would have expanded without Hogan. He was taking people from all over the country at the end of 1983. He would have found a guy and gave him the Hogan push. As far as him being as successful, tough to say as Hogan was a larger than life character that drew like a motherfucker. Without Hogan, I cannot safely say that WrestleMania becomes the success that it was or that Mr. T becomes involved in the show.
ReplyDeleteI bet that he would have made a run at Kerry Von Erich, since he did like them at the time. Other than that, I have no idea.
That wacky Vince had crazy ideas even back then.
ReplyDeleteThis might be WAY off base, but in my mind it seems that NWA was the top territory with WWF behind it during the early 80s. It seems that Hogan changed that dynamic. Again, not sure how true this actually is.
ReplyDeleteI thought it was Vince snr who wanted hogan to dye his hair red, to be a focal point with irish americans, like bruno with italians
ReplyDeleteThe above is just shooting off the top of my head... but in all honesty, once Verne made the decision to NOT let Hulk truly headline, Hulk was gone. (More in the first paragraph below.)
ReplyDeleteVince goes national: I think he does... but his success is limited at best to start. And he'll end up getting Hogan anyway, might just be after one or two more/other promoters screw with Hulk. Hulk might be a movie "star"... but that won't get him too far outside New York or Memphis.
WWF's market: No, they were NOT dominant far outside the Northeast IIRC. And without Hogan, Vince's talent raids may not bear as much fruit as they did. However, the "old ways" were becoming very shaky... someone was going to do the damage to the territories eventually.
WWF Face: I'll let Sullivan's Guest Booker tell the story: Paul Orndorff is an option, as is Superstar Billy Graham, this time NOT being "ten years too soon". World Class is still strong, so I don't see the Von Erichs going up North for any serious run... unless Kerry breaks from the family.
WM1: Delayed... unless somehow Orndorff or Graham DO explode onto the national scene like Hogan did. But WM without Hogan and his "star power" links... Nah, WAY too risky. It was still quite the risk WITH Hogan...
I still think Hogan finds his way to New York sooner or later, and unless Vince's making Hogan sized profits with Orndorff or Graham, Hogan will get his turn on top. But the delay... might be enough to give a different promoter, or two, or three, the time to build and develop into real "competition" for Vince.
Offshoot question to the topic:
ReplyDeleteWhat if Vince decides to make JYD the top guy?
Backlund keeps the belt throughout 1984. I recently watched the full year of WWF TV and the msg shows from 84 and they treated backlund like a huge deal. Vignettes, clean victories, he had kids he was bringing on TV to do amateur wrestling demos, he would just get these huge chunks of TV time in an era where it was just match, match, match. Also they would blow him on commentary non stop. With no larger than life hero I guarantee you backlund holds that belt through 84, beating shiek, and pipers goons like Dr d, Orton and orndorff.
ReplyDeleteVince was never going to put the belt on a heel for more than 30 days (look at the WWF history) but its possible that they use the lauper angle to turn piper face. Piper fucking carried day to day 84 WWF. No question hogan was the massive attraction but pipers pit, and then piper as a manager and wrestler carried the TV. In 1984 pipers mic skills were off the charts. So I think by 85 the lauper thing turns piper face and orndorff takes the belt off backlund for a short (month or less) time and then jobs to piper. Backlund basically fades away in late 85-iinstead of 84.
I think the WWF still blows up, as old school vince is the best promoter ever (modern day Vince is a bad parody)
When Backlund came back after losing the belt, the fans crapped all over him. They tried to build him back up but the fans just didn't buy him anymore.
ReplyDeleteThe WWF had the best territory and arena. The nwa had a lot going for it but the WWF always had NYC and msg. I don't think that even in the Bruno era nwa was seen as being much better.
ReplyDeleteIh hogan stays at AWA, I think vince pushes Snuka hard, he faces piper at WM1 which would still be successful (or at least successful enough to continue the expansion). Snuka isnt the long term solution though (drug abuse and all that stuff). If its American hero he wants its Slaughter or Duggan???
ReplyDeleteOr maybe Savage comes in earlier as a huge face with Liz.
all the great heels that were there at that time (Piper, Orndorff, Andre, Dibiase and later Perfect) they would have made any fan cheer for the other guy!!!
and I think the expansion would have still been monstrous and still took all other talent and other companies still closed down
Yeah but with no hogan he never drops that belt. I think at worst backlund had some cena backlash for a long time but he's still their guy until Vince moves it to the next era. Who was treated as a bigger deal? Snuka wasn't getting the belt, they had to have a face champion, IMO no question backlund gets another year. The only other super top face was slaughter and it seems like if Vince wanted him as champ he would have pulled the trigger much earlier (81/82)
ReplyDeleteSlaughter was a major wwf star pre hogan and snuka was a head case even for early 80's pro wrestling. Its possible Savage gets hulks spot but a piper face turn during the albano/lauper thing could have been nuclear
ReplyDeleteI still think whoever Vince had picked to build his company around would have gotten the "Hogan push" the same was, including beating the eveil foreign heel for the belt. I think they would have gotten the belt off of Backlund, regardless.
ReplyDeleteWhen watching shoots from guys who were popular in other territories in the 70's and early 80's, they all spoke of how they all wanted to work at Madison Square Garden as it was the mecca of wrestling.
ReplyDeleteI've watched some wwf 84 stuff and he does get shit on a points. I'm never known the Context though...whether the fans started to turn in him first or if they turned on him after he lost the belt. Kinda a strange dynamic from the little I've seen
ReplyDeleteWell the belt was going to a super hero type for sure but if you remove hogan from the 84 roster who's there to take it? Meanwhile even with hogan there they continued to act like backlund was a huge deal. I don't see Vince dying to dump backlund as much as I see him searching for the guy to get him to that un
ReplyDeleteLike others have said, WWF was in the major market in the country. Vince was going national eventually with or without Hogan. Wrestlemania may have been delayed a few years, but eventually Hogan would see that he can make more money in NYC than Minneapolis.....
ReplyDeleteI'd always heard kiniski and thesz were very jealous-of the money Bruno was getting
ReplyDeleteI'm just saying macho man because it's the answer I want.
ReplyDeleteOoohhh Yyyeeeaaahhh...
ReplyDeleteI have to agree with everyone below that the company would still succeed, the more interesting question is who would be in Hogans spot?
ReplyDeleteShit I read always claim Vince would have pushed for Kerry Von Erich. I find that almost implausible considering his family roots in Texas
ReplyDeleteI was meaning Slaughter to be the ultimate number one, absolutely he was huge pre hogan . But your right about Piper though, he would have been a monster face, but to play devils advocate Does Vince worry about Pipers lack of size and is looking for a bigger taller Hoganesque physique?
ReplyDeleteBacklund was getting stale as champ and he was not going to be the face of the WWF when they were going national. That would have been a disaster.
ReplyDeleteI think another interesting thing here: how do the years after 84 end up going? I mean, assuming Hogan does come in, just later, without being The Guy for the most important period of WWF, does the company keep going back to him until after Mania 9?
ReplyDeleteI'm hoping we all have a chance to get sick of Savage as a 5 time champ.
Backlund had a cena-lite thing going on since the 70's. That fan base was used to a stereotypical ethnic tough guy caricature as the top guy and this was a squeaky clean super white bread goody two shoes. There was always backlash (ex the hammers fake title win pop) but he still probably was more popular as a face than cena is now (he was also booked better) but still always had fans that booed him
ReplyDeleteDon't forget that Slaughter only turned face right around the time Hogan came in. I think it's entirely possible that they build around Slaughter in the absence of Hogan, given how absolutely nuclear his face heat was. Slaughter was still drifting in and out of the WWF is the early 80's, and more importantly, the Cold War and American xenophobia didn't hit that fever pitch until 84-ish.
ReplyDeleteSlaughter could've absolutely been the right guy at the right time for that monster push with the belt. You wouldn't even need to change the booking, you still book Sheik as the transitional champ, you just do it two months later. Backlund had absolutely run his course by that point, which is why Vince changed direction and never looked back. No way in hell did Vince look at Backlund as the guy to carry the company through that expansion period. Even without Hogan, that belt was coming off of Backlund.
Hogan was hardly on the TV shows until later in 84 anyways so they could have still kept backlund as champ until say October or November and focused the show on figuring out who was going to be "the guy" while still having Andre and that amazing stable of heels, one of whom they could have take the belt and drop it to say savage or von Erich or whoever. I think that's better than hot shotting the belt to a guy that's not a shaq/lebron type blue chip prospect like hogan. I think would Vince would have needed to vet a little more to find that non hogan guy and leaving the belt on a known commodity like backlund for the year while he looks is the better bet. The house show biz wouldn't touch hogans #'s but the TV for national expansion could still play out similarly with backlund as champ. I mean in January of 84 they were having backlund team up with hogan to give HOGAN the rub so its not like backlund holding the belt till the fall of 84 is a streach in a non hogan scenario
ReplyDeleteI just wonder if Vince wanted/thought slaughter was that guy why not pull the trigger sooner on that kind of push? Piper may have been too small but I'm sure in exchange for that spot he'd roid up to the gills.
ReplyDeleteHogan, despite not being on the shows, was still making public appearances as the champ and they would show the highlights of him on the shows to keep him fresh. Him having the belt and beating the Sheik was the springboard for all of that happening. In the meantime, Slaughter was the #2 face and turned to feud with Sheik so you still had a red-hot feud on TV to play out until Hogan got back in time for the stuff with Cyndi Lauper. Slaughter's charachter was red-hot but he did die down a bit after his feud with the Sheik played out so and he wasnt going to be a crossover star so I dont see him as the guy Vince would have built his expansion around
ReplyDeleteI obviously agree theres no way backlund is the face of that expansion but until vince found his guy backlund was holding the belt. I'm only saying he holds it for maybe 8/9 months more. I don't see the WWF having a heel champ for more than a month to switch face champs and I don't see another Hogan out there so I think Vince experiments with a few guys until he gets what he wants for the move. But I also don't see him trading that belt around.
ReplyDeleteThe fact that slaughter was a heel for most of the early 80's is an interesting point. And when they turned him face he was over huge. But hogan also did a heel run then (nothing as substantial as slaughter but still...) so Vince obviously saw something in hogan that wasn't in slaughter that he wanted for that national move. Otherwise I think he would have turned slaughter sooner and given him the hogan push. He was right there for a long time pre hulk and Vince never made that move.
Prestige and national recognition in the NWA
ReplyDeleteThose things don't always add up to more money
Yeah, we'll obviously never know, which is part of why it's such a great question to knock around. As a 9-year old kid who was just starting to watch faithfully at that point, it seemed to me that Slaughter was just as big a deal as Hogan until Slaughter left in late-84. And really, the Slaughter-Sheik feud was the program that carried the Fed through the summer of that year. Hogan just sort of drifted through house show programs with Orndorff, Studd, and Schultz for most of the year, without a lot of direction. The Hogan-Piper angle didn't seem to really get going until the December '84 MSG show (Hogan saving Albano from Piper) by which time Slaughter had already left. Given how over Slaughter was, I think the only thing keeping him from the title was the presence of Hogan.
ReplyDeleteAs for the fact that Slaughter and Hogan were both heels in the WWF earlier in the decade, I don't see much of a connection there. It wasn't like Vince turned Hogan face. The AWA version of Hogan in '83 is exactly the same guy who won the title in January of '84. Vince gave Hogan the platform, but he was essentially a finished product by the time he returned to New York. Slaughter's face persona was more of a Vince creation than Hogan was...although I freely admit that '84 face Slaughter and '83 heel Slaughter weren't much different from each other. He did get more and more kid-friendly as the year progressed, though.
The only problem with using Slaughter in Hogan's place is that Slaughter did not become a face until the day after Hogan wins the WWF Championship. Savage doesn't work either since he was still an "outlaw" at that point and while Vince did not intend to respect territorial boundaries he was still at the point when he was building around people who were stars in other territories. 1984 WWF was about building a roster from stars that were already established in other. Savage, as an "outlaw" was pretty much the equivalent of an independent wrestler. It's only after he went to a "legitimate" territory in Memphis that he gained enough of a name value for Vince to be interested in him.
ReplyDeleteVince pays a lot of money for either Magnum TA, Kerry Von Erich or Scott Hall and goes national anyway. The AWA would still exist today. Crockett would be the first to die.
ReplyDeleteAmong other things.
Considering what wack jobs many of the major stars of the early 1980s were, Hulk Hogan was the best choice for his spot. Every other logical choice would have either imploded or just was not a big enough star to justify the spot. Yeah Hulk is pretty crazy himself but believe it or not he probably was the sanest person of a crazy fraternity.
ReplyDeleteVince still had Andre in his back pocket, and as much as I'd like to think Savage could come in and get it done you don't have that Wrestlemania III moment with Hogan slamming the then 875,000 lb Giant. Savage just wasn't gonna cut it.
ReplyDeleteThe funny thing is that Savage was a better wrestler to have over the long run than hogan was. I never remember the fans turning on him. Anyway. Hogan would have come in eventually or the Ultimate Warrior would have come in and provided some spark but Vince was gonna go big no matter what.
Vince was going national even if he had to push Shane as his #1 babyface. If not Hogan it was going to be somebody. I think the bigger what-if is what if WM fails? The push of Vince going national made Crockett do a lot of dumb stuff. I'd like to think JCP would have lasted a lot longer without that added pressure.
ReplyDeleteFrom a Rock and Wrestling Connection it works but I don't think JYD wearing a chain and dancing would have gone over well on Good Morning America.
ReplyDeleteWhat was Superstar Billy Graham doing at this time?
A shitload of coke.
ReplyDeleteAssuming Hogan stays in the AWA, I think WWF damn near dies if they roll the dice with Graham or Von Erich. Both guys were snorting everything but their own dick hair at that point, the second either guy gets caught doing 6 lines off the back of a dead underage hooker Vince and the WWF are fucked.
They would have to put them in the ring with heels that could carry them.
ReplyDelete