Hey Scott,
Oh, no, they were dead in the water like everyone else who wasn't national at that point. Everything past Vince's initial raid of the promotion in the early 80s was just Bill slowly walking away after taking the five finger death punch. I know we always simplify it to "Verne was old and wouldn't push Hogan and the Rockers derp derp derp" but really much bigger forces were aligning against everyone outside of WCW and the WWF anyway, so realistically everyone below that level either had to radically reinvent themselves or die off quickly. Verne had a good promotional base to keep himself alive longer than he should have, plus the ESPN deal, but really once Hogan/Ventura/Mean Gene/Dr. D/Patera/Verne's caterer and parking valet all jumped in the same weekend, the war was over. Verne didn't have the resources, TV deal, or PPV experience (duh) to even know how to compete with what was going to destroy him.
Martel was a good try at the time because he was the closest thing they had to a potential crossover babyface star, but he was obviously too big for the promotion and was gonna get snapped up by the WWF no matter what. Hennig was realistically the only guy who could get the title in 87 no matter how badly Verne still wanted old man Bockwinkel as his champion. But again, anyone who was pretty good and achieved past a certain level was destined to be gone anyway. Anyone who COULD have been a difference maker was gonna go, and anyone who wasn't gonna go (Jerry Lawler, Larry Z, Greg Gagne) either was someone who burned all their bridges or that fans wouldn't buy as champion. It was literally no-win for the AWA. Vince was fucking with him so badly by the end that he signed away Sgt. Slaughter, for god's sake!
I don't think Verne HELPED himself with all his stupid booking cliches and short-sighted decisions, but it wasn't like he was gonna last past 1991 anyway.
That Team Challenge Series shouldve worked dammit...
ReplyDelete...and Magnificent Mimi kept me watching....
It's actually a total misconception that Verne was stuck in the past regarding Hogan, he wanted to make him champion but Verne's deal was he sent his champions to All Japan, and Hogan already had a (better) deal with New Japan, and wouldn't kowtow to that.
ReplyDeleteBill Eadie (I think, not 100% on it) once talked about a similar thing where Verne had offered to make him world champion in exchange for All Japan bookings, not realising he already had All Japan bookings. He was working in Florida at the time so would have had to uproot his wife and give up winter sun for freezing Minnesota, AND given something like a 15/20% cut of his All Japan takings to Verne for his role as the middle man.
Basically, Verne wanted Hogan as champion after Rocky III but they couldn't agree on terms (Hogan wanted t-shirt money too and Verne was too stubborn to realise Hogan's popularity would have meant a bigger take for him, even if he split the cut 50/50) and the simple fact was, Hogan would have gone with Vince regardless of whether he was AWA champion or not.
Verne was fucked both ways, either he made Hogan champion and watched him walk out to Vince with the AWA belt, or he kept the title on Bockwinkel to be forever "remembered" as the guy who didn't put the belt on Hogan.
Really what he should have done (hindsight being 20/20 and all that) was taken the deal Vince offered him to buy out the whole promotion and go work in the office, but his proudness got the best of him, and why wouldn't it? He'd been successfully promoting and working for decades by that point.
I really can't complain about last night's Raw, I think they're starting the build to some really interesting programs, and with the Road to WrestleMania so up in the air, it's actually a little exciting. The great matches that they're showing on Raw don't hurt, either.
ReplyDeleteThinking about (once again) ordering Royal Rumble to see how it turns out.
As a last grasp to pull in some interest, the Team Challenge Series was... not a good idea at all, especially when team members and team captains left before the series ended.
ReplyDeleteI used to watch the AWA on ESPN growing up, and it always seemed so second-rate. Of course, the promotion was in its death throes and not long for the world when I started watching, so that didn't help.
I will admit to marking out when The Trooper and DJ Peterson won the tag belts from Enos and Bloom on TV, though. Good times.
If the idea behind WWE booking was still to create big stars and make money, here's what I'd do:
ReplyDelete-Triple H gets forced into making a Bryan-Orton rematch for the title somehow in two weeks. His condition is that it's Bryan's ABSOLUTE LAST SHOT at Orton and the belt. The Authority then screws him over in the match, and everyone thinks they've finally beaten the goat.
-Fast forward a week, everyone is celebrating being rid of Daniel Bryan, until he shows up, reminds them about the Royal Rumble, and guarantees he's going to win it and go on to Wrestlemania.
-Triple H forces him to be the first man in at the Rumble, then the Raw before the show adds a bounty of sorts on his elimination a la Austin in 98-99.
-Bryan caps the show by winning the Rumble anyway.
You can't screw this up, really...so of course they'll totally screw it up.
It made no sense for it not to be a title match.
ReplyDeleteA proper blowoff to the feud would be fine, even after so many matches, provided that they book both guys strong between now and then.
ReplyDeleteThe thing that really killed the AWA was Vern being an old-timey miserly fuck. Trying to sign guys to deals where they could still work elsewhere, but he'd get a big cut out of it. That shit wasn't going to fly in the 80s. And being hqed in Minnesota meant that business was greatly curtailed in the winter, giving Crockett and Vince an advantage because they could run all year long, thus no need for outside trips. Old-timey booking was definitely a factor, but old-timey business practices was the real problem.
ReplyDeleteA) Agreed that there was no reason for it not to be a title match.
ReplyDeleteB) The ending still makes sense, though, as title or not Orton doesn't want to get beat clean by Bryan, so he takes the cheap way out, delivers a beating, and so on.
I grew up in Winnipeg so the AWA was my local promotion. And, believe me, when you have 3 channels of local TV and your American cable TV channels from from North Dakota, you end up with a lot of AWA wrestling on TV. And you know what? It was fun - mainly because there was no way to see the WWF or NWA at the time, so the AWA was all there was, and when you're a little kid growing up on the Prairies, it was a promotion with a lot of great characters, solid booking throughout, and the ability to keep you watching week to week and month to month.
ReplyDeleteNot to mention, there was that period in the early 1980s when the AWA was practically exploding with talent - Hogan, the Road Warriors, Martel, Stan Hansen, Tony Atlas, Bundy, Brody, etc, in addition to the stalwarts like Bockwinkel (who was awesome), Crusher, Bruiser, Mad Dog Vachon and so on.
Yes, the AWA was doomed due to inside and outside forces. But it was a great promotion.
Seems like a good show. Guess I'll watch on dvr
ReplyDeleteI can appreciate that sentiment, and last night's match WAS awesome, but I just think I've seen everything I need to see out of these two.
ReplyDeleteNot really.
ReplyDelete1. Last week, Cena exhibited some fantastic on-his-feet thinking and improv-ed that portion of his promo with Bryan to establish himself as the face and pacify the crowd so the segment could play out. And it worked (for that little bit, anyway).
2. Someone needed to get Bryan/Orton to happen as the main event. Orton wasn't going to challenge Bryan and The Authority wasn't going to give Bryan a shot just because he asked.
3. John Cena's entire gimmick is "Guy Who Is Champion Or Is Fighting To Be Champion (Unless Big Name Part-Timer Is Around)." He had to get involved after the match.
Comparing Bryan to Ryder is absurd.
I don't disagree, per se, just saying that I think they've still got a potentially good blow off left if they book it right.
ReplyDelete"Oh, no, they were dead in the water like everyone else who wasn't national at that point."
ReplyDeleteCould not possibly disagree more. You casually mention the ESPN deal as if it were insignificant. They had just as much reach cable-wise as the WWF did. And ESPN was about to take off...imagine if AWA had kept the ship floating long enough to ride the ESPN rocketship?
I lived in Connecticut growing up. I did not get TBS, so NWA/WCW did not exist in my world until like 1993. The AWA was on. As it was in many, many other places.
AWA had every possible advantage, and then some, but Verne was stuck in 1964 and it killed his promotion.
"I know we always simplify it to...."
That's because the simplest explanation is usually the right one.
Amen. It was the business practices way more than the booking, though the booking didn't help. Verne had an ESPN contract and a boatload of talent through the mid-80s and he blew it, plain and simple. He didn't adapt, he failed.
ReplyDeleteThe thinking that it was inevitable is stupid. Nothing is inevitable. Especially when you have HULK HOGAN, post-Rocky 3, in your promotion.
What he should've done is given Hogan anything he wanted, like Vince did. And maybe Vince would've ended up working for Verne.
ReplyDeleteWhen you have the biggest draw of all-time in your promotion, you do whatever the F he wants.
Once again we see how lazy WWE is when it comes to booking the divas and giving them any realistic character traits. The Funkadactyls watch Tons of Funk break up right in front of them, with one of the guys getting the crap beat out of him, and all it takes is for Truth & Woods to be like, "Hey ladies, you wanna dance?" for them to act like nothing happened. Reminds me of when Daniel Bryan gets beaten/kidnapped and two segments later Brie Bella is on screen acting like everything is cool.
ReplyDeleteThe ESPN deal didn't start until 1985, by which time a lot of talent had left. Plus IIRC ESPN did keep moving the show around and often delayed or pre-empted it. ESPN never got behind the AWA the way USA got behind the WWF or even TBS got behind JCP/WCW.
ReplyDeleteDo we know for sure that the Bryan part of Cena's Seattle promo was improvised? I mean, WWE knew they were in Bryan's backyard, they'd given him multiple Slammys and had him win a match that night ... putting him in the ring for that last segment, they had to assume the crowd would go nuts for him, right? A lot of fans are saying Cena improvised, but how do we know?
ReplyDeleteAnd that's a BAD thing, to show a little weakness? To have something that knocks you down?
ReplyDeleteHulk Hogan and Hunter just got chubbies.
Triple H has looked weak though no matter if he's the guy being put over or not.
ReplyDeleteAnytime recently Triple H gets a gaggle of wrestlers to gather round his plan falls apart. Last night it may have not looked like he was vulnerable, but letting the fans dictate what happens on HIS show is vulnerability.
You wouldn't need the post-WM Raw to bring out the smark in the crowd. That would work just fine.
ReplyDeleteFor once, WWE showed WRESTLING LOGIC.
ReplyDeleteBryan LOST at TLC, even if it was in a three-on-one match. Ergo, he's "not in line" for a World Title shot going into Raw. However, now that he has a victory over Orton, he can demand a World Title match down the line.
This getting turned into another clusterfuck is (almost) a given, but at least try to enjoy it when it's actually logical and good. Raw had enough dumb shit without nitpicking that match.
Even the music distracted roll-up of DOOM?
ReplyDeleteWow, that's a pretty low bar for a wrestler looking "vulnerable." Last night Orton basically called out HHH and Steph with his whole "I'm the most powerful person in this ring" and "Nobody tells me what to do!", and so 10 seconds later HHH does his 'Except ME!" and books Orton in a match that Orton didn't want. HHH didn't look vulnerable, he just reiterated that their new Unified WWE World Heavyweight Super Champion of Champions is still his little lapdog.
ReplyDeleteHHH has been booked to look dominant over every single wrestler, face or heel, who's crossed his path since Summerslam.
I think Verne could have made a run if he reached out to investors and moved operations to Chicago. Honestly he should have let ESPN have a cut to keep them honest; ESPN wasn't swimming in cash at that time, but they likely could keep up with Vince if not Turner.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.wrestlecrap.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/153.jpg
ReplyDeleteThis exactly. The whole "Verne wanted Hogan to be champ, Hogan just turned it down" is bullshit if the reasoning was "Verne wanted to book Hogan in Japan" or "Verne wanted ALL the t-shirt" sales. Under those conditions, then yes Verne can still be considered a stupid old fool who didn't catch up with the times. Hogan was the future, he was IT, and Verne needed to do whatever he needed to do to build the promotion around him. I mean, quibbling about merch percentages and fucking small potatoes like JAPAN BOOKINGS? That's completely old fuddy duddy shit. The money was in having HULK HOGAN as the centerpiece of your promotion in the US. That's it. Verne didn't do what he needed to make that happen, and it cost him the wrestling war.
ReplyDeleteYeah, Vince had tons of advantages by virtue of running the New York promotion, but Hogan could have possibly made the difference. If AWA gets the ESPN deal with a red-hot Hulk Hogan as their champion (meanwhile Vince is forced to run with, what, Snuka as the babyface champ? Slaughter?) then things could be different. Maybe not, maybe Vince gets Hogan a few years later anyway, but there's no way it's a sure thing. Hulkamania was a difference maker.
Orton is his lapdog just like Rock was Vince's. Orton knows it and that's why he rose up and had the face turn way back when. I'm not denying that.
ReplyDeleteThe vulnerability doesn't always have to be apparent. With Vince, he made it known he hated the fans, but Triple H has to work a more open political atmosphere than Vince did. Fans know more now, so Triple H is trying to keep a smile and seem cool while also trying to pull the same stuff Vince did. It's Evolution Triple H, only with way more power. If you didn't like that Triple H you sure as hell won't like this one.
I enjoyed the Team Challenge Series, even though it was terrible. My last memory of it (like most people's last memory, I'm sure) is Jake "The Milkman" Millman beating someone (DeBeers maybe?) by grabbing a frozen turkey off a pole or something.
ReplyDeleteI'll put it this way:
ReplyDeleteHmmmm... Vince Sr., seeing what his son really wants to do out of New York, makes a "trade" with Verne before selling out to Vince Jr.
The WWF and AWA swap territories, with Vince Jr. now based in Minneapolis (freedom to change, however), and Verne now based in NYC. Talent and production stay the same, just the crowds and places change.
Why? Vince Sr. thinks Verne will keep his vision of wrestling alive and well, while Vince Jr. can't wait to change everything.
---
Now THERE's a fun "What If?" I still think Vince wins in less than 10 years... maybe faster than he actually did, if he goes after the West Coast/Hollywood first.
Also, does Crockett actually get a foothold in the Northeast as Verne slowly bleeds out, instead of being "forced" to go into the Midwest...
Yeah, it was on at around 4 p.m. Eastern, the perfect time for kids just getting out of school - like me! That timeslot also showed, at various times, WCCW, USWA and Global wrestling, before they just gave up on pro wrestling all together.
ReplyDeleteI think Global was my favorite. Someone needs to produce (or just send me) some GWF DVDs, starting with the early shows and moving forward.
Magnificent Mimi? Pssssh......now that Candi Divine.....brother she was smokin hot!
ReplyDeleteMy favorite thing about the AWA was the tag team Bad Company, Pat Tanaka and Paul Diamond, used the song "Bad Company" by the group Bad Company as their entrance music.
ReplyDeleteOrton/Bryan was superb, their best match by a way. I think Andy's about right with ****1/2 and I thought the finish was fine - makes sense. One of my favourite matches of the year.
ReplyDeleteAs for the Rock-Vince dynamic, I'd say there were definitely differences in the booking (as opposed to HHH/Steph & Orton) that made Rock look WAYYY better than Orton does. First off, Vince portrayed himself as being super powerful, sure, and Rock was his corporate champ— but Vince acted like a crazy maniac who sometimes got made to look a fool. He wasn't constantly reminding Rock that Rock was lower than him the way HHH/Steph do with Orton. Vince often looked vulnerable and crazy to take some heat for Rock— basically, acting as a manager. Vince was just doing Bobby Heenan schtick as the owner of the company.
ReplyDeleteAlso, the other difference (and this is on Orton for not being very good on the mic), Rock was able to get himself over as a big f'n deal even as the Corporate Champ because he was just so goddamn great on the mic. He never FELT like a stooge the way Orton does when he's making his boo-boo face at a smirking HHH.
That said, as for HHH... I understand what you're saying about his "heel" portrayal. He's going for a more subtle "Yeah I'm a heel but I have to pretend to be a face sometimes because WE"RE SMART LIKE THE SOPRANOS." Like I get it. But honestly it's just fucking terrible and actively hurts the TV show and the heat of everyone around them. It still comes down to HHH/Steph are portrayed as being smarter/tougher than every single person on the roster, heel or face. The Shield beat every great 3-man combo in WWE? Well, they're "Those Shield guys" that HHH treats as his lapdogs. Daniel Bryan? "B+ player" blah blah blah, never gets over on HHH/Steph. Big Show? Jobs to HHH's entrance music. The entire roster? stand there and look like a bunch of worthless jobbers!
And ok, fine enough, they're building heel heat, right? Except not really! They're still portratying themselves as kinda faces sometimes, and therefore the fans never know how to react to them. How does that help anyone? How does that make the shows any fun? That's my big problem here— HHH and Stephanie are just making the show not enjoyable to watch. Nothing they do ever makes segments better. They come out, wag their dicks over everyone, make the entire roster look beneath them— and then do their phoney "shades of gray" schtick so that even THEY don't get any heat with the fans.
Lastly, here's the main thing: HHH isn't a fucking wrestler anymore. Even in the Evolution days, I could understand the point of HHH going over everyone. I hated the show and barely watched for a few years before Mania 21, but I could understand the general point. HHH was the everyday heel "face of the company." He main evented the PPVs, he mainevented the TV show and houseshows. They wanted to build him up strong— fine. But why are they still doing that NOW? There is zero money in HHH and Steph being dominant over the roster. For what, one HHH match at Mania? Emasculate the roster for a year for THAT? It's ridiculous. They're making everyone else look like goons to get HHH over so he can wrestle one fucking match taht isn't even gonna be a draw at Mania. (Except he's not even really getting over as a heel, because he refuses to play heel in a decent way.) It's just terrible, totally terrible booking. HHH and Steph are just complete negatives to the on-air product.
'selling england by the pound' is my favorite genesis album
ReplyDeletesolsbury hill, biko, shock the monkey, games without frontiers... your argument is invalid
ReplyDeletewhen was the last time you actually stayed the hell away when you said you were?
ReplyDelete(just messin' with ya, brah)
i know that vince is mr. foxnews, but anyone wanna bet that he deliberately chose mark henry as the good santa after all the "santa is white" stuff? vince likes to think he's on the cutting edge of social commentary
ReplyDeleteI will likely get the Rumble just because that match itself is usually entertaining.
ReplyDeleteFrom the desk of VMK:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.memegeneokerlund.com/media/created/7d8ajd.jpg
The Football Match may be the most convoluted, awesomely horrible thing I've ever seen in pro wrestling.
ReplyDeleteThat 4PM ESPN wrestling time slot, was the greatest thing ever. I vividly remember watching Austin, Foley, Taker, Xpac, Raven, all debut btw USWA and Global.
ReplyDeleteAmen one thousand times. They never actually developed an on-screen relationship between Clay and the Funkadactyls which is more laziness. Even if it was a business agreement it would have to mean a little something right?
ReplyDeleteClay didn't really lose the girl and I believe, kayfabe wise, that HHH would have been better off with Stephanie turning on him. The money would have poured in for the rematch.
ReplyDeleteAs far as the Funkadactyls, how in the hell is that a time for dancing?
When you say Summerslam you really mean since they changed the name to the WWE
ReplyDeleteI look old matches of Hogan and I just see Money. He had money written all over him. It's obvious he was going to be a star. Verne should of thrown anything at him, T-Shirt money, whatever. Verne would have had a shot if he was able to keep Hogan, the Road Warriors, and Heenan. He had 2 of the biggest draws of the 80's and he let them walk away.
ReplyDeleteThey were an awesome team. DDP was their manager.
ReplyDeleteHe also likes to think no debate is complete until he chimes in with his opinion.
ReplyDeleteYou just do (or should). They didn't count on the crowd hijacking the final segment the way they did and Bryan was there because all the former champs were, not because it was part of a a psychological ploy to get the crowd to interrupt Triple H's promo so they could toss the spotlight on a guy who's not even in the title picture.
ReplyDeleteThe bigger question is, now that Kiss has finally gotten in, who assumes the mantle of "most glaring omission?" Deep Purple? Weird Al?
ReplyDeleteAWA was always a guilty pleasure for me, I mean they had Lee Marshall and Killer Ken Resnick.....
ReplyDeleteThis.....
ReplyDeletefun fact: just knowing what i knew about genesis's history and how gabriel talked about it, i deduced that 'solsbury hill' was about his decision to leave genesis long before i ever saw it confirmed anywhere. go me!
ReplyDeleteMmmmm, Mimi. If the real BOD was around 25 years ago, she'd be in my top 5 every week.
ReplyDeleteI'll use my poop time however I want, Loser!
ReplyDeleteI think people are assuming (justifiably) that the office is far enough out of touch with the fanbase that they legit didn't see it coming. I'm in that camp, too. I don't think the WWE has ever been so blind to what they have as they've exhibited with Bryan. I think Vince/HHH honestly thought that HiaC's result would dent Bryan's momentum enough to clear him out of the main event scene for a while. Clearly, they didn't realize that the fans just won't have it (see reports of Vince being furious at the segment-jack performed by the fans last week). I'd love to have been a fly on the wall for the booking of last night's show. The closest parallel I can draw is from '93/'94 when they clearly wanted to push Luger as the top guy, but the fans made it clear that Bret needed to be in that spot.
ReplyDeleteWith a fast count that resulted in a Dusty finish, and the reign of Abeyance. Not exactly the boyhood dream coming true.
ReplyDeleteThe WWE's DVD on the AWA is great viewing, Vince comes off pretty fair on it as he points out he was never personal, he was just expanding and such and nails how so many of the old-time promoters didn't know how to deal with competition and that's a key reason Vince won. Again, Verne's attitude didn't help; story on the disc is how Hayes wanted to push a Freebirds/Road Warriors feud but Verne refused, saying "you can't have two heel teams fighting each other" missing how the Warriors were getting bigger pops than most of the faces at the time.
ReplyDeleteAnd another factor mentioned on the DVD is how Verne kept thinking the AWA was where guys wanted to be, not getting they were using it as a stepping stone to McMahon or Crockett.
BTW, the underrated "McMahon" doc has a moment not in the AWA disc where Greg Gagne mentions the famous meeting they had with Vince in an airport over a deal, not reaching it, Vince walking away before calling out "Verne? I don't negotiate" and a week later, Hogan signs with WWF. Meanwhile, consider how Verne basically stabbed his partners in the back to get the SuperCLash III profits for himself, some might say he was asking for it.
This. Guy. Gets it.
ReplyDeleteIf Hogan stayed in the AWA then I have a feeling all of those other wrestlers would have stayed as well.
ReplyDeleteTotal Divas did more in 2 minutes last week to establish Brodus and the Funkadactyls' actual friendship (at least the one between Brodus & Naomi) than WWE's wrestling shows have done in however-many months they've been paired together.
ReplyDeleteI'm not blaming the ladies for what happened on RAW. Over the last few weeks, whenever Brodus acted heel-ish, the Funkadactyls did their part by acting shocked and concerned. They weren't cold fish like Miz's dad. ("Oh look, my son's getting beaten to death. Did I forget to close the garage?") But when the booking team decides that the ladies only need 15 seconds and an R-Truth invitation to forget that one of their friends has turned evil and the other is seriously hurt, they can't help but look callous and underdeveloped as characters.
And therein lies the biggest issue: I think, deep down, Vince believes we watch Total Divas.
ReplyDeleteNah, I think they know it's (mostly) two different audiences. The fact that Cena is basically a heel on Total Divas and yet the most babyface of babyfaces everywhere else is evidence of that. They also haven't made a wrestling angle out of Naomi and J. Uso's real-life relationship. (Although Fandago is pretty good at being a slimy heel on both shows.) I watch Total Divas and RAW/Smackdown, but I realize I'm most likely in the minority.
ReplyDeleteIsn't that like everybody who comments on the Internet?
ReplyDeleteNot to single you out, because I wonder about this with most wrestling fans ... but did you go into RAW looking for stuff to complain about?
ReplyDeleteNo, I pretty much never do. Raw is some popcorn entertainment for me either on Monday night or Tuesday morning. If something annoys me, so be it, but I'm pretty open minded when I turn the show on.
ReplyDeleteI'm sure they didn't count on the crowd totally taking over the segment immediately, but they couldn't have been blindsided and totally not prepared for a big reaction to Bryan. MAYBE they thought putting Bryan in an earlier match and giving him multiple Slammys would make it so the crowd had calmed down and it wasn't like they were seeing him for the first time during the ascension ceremony, but that seems like very poor planning. I'm just saying, I could see where Cena using Bryan as an example of hard work was part of the script. If it was off the cuff, then you have to assume Cena's offering Bryan a title shot was off the cuff, and therefore yesterday's main event was only booked as a result of Cena going off the cuff.
ReplyDeleteOK. I'm pretty much the same way. I don't get too mad about even the worst of the HHH/Vince/etc. politics (it's just a TV show, after all) and can mostly enjoy the show, but I know a lot of fans seem to go out of their way not to enjoy the show. Does that make us marks?
ReplyDeleteActually, I think it's the other way around. The people who get worked up and angry are more marks than the people who are more "whatever"
ReplyDeleteSo where is this Wade Barrett thing supposed to be going? I feel like he's headed for the announce table. Though if you'd asked me a couple months ago, I would have picked Sandow as the next wrestler they'll transition to being an announcer.
ReplyDeleteYeah yeah, sledgehammer, don't give up, steam, down to earth...all solid songs. Nothing that ever set the world on fire, no matter how many times he recruits African choirs to sing along with Biko for him.
ReplyDeleteBut if Koko B Ware is good with you, then huzzah Gabriel, I guess.
Someone on here once told me that marks are the people who pay for PPVs and generally spend any money on WWE.
ReplyDeleteTop Ten Genesis Albums (not including live and compilations)
ReplyDelete10. Duke
9. Calling All Stations
8. Invisible Touch
7. #untitled#, a.k.a. the Mama album
6. Selling England By The Pound
5. Foxtrot
4. Abacab
3. The Lamb Lies Down On Broadway
2. Trick of the Tail
1. Wind & Wuthering
Well, that's one definition of a mark, although I think it's changed over the years, especially as the Interwebz as started to use the vernacular just as much as - if not more than - the wrestlers themselves. If you get so invested in the product that you can't see that these carny folk are working you (even when it seems like they're just trying to do the stupidest thing possible, they're probably working you), then you're probably a mark.
ReplyDeleteIf you can watch the product and not freak the fuck out when Triple H makes a comment meant to annoy us, you're not a mark.
But if they really wanted to stop Bryan's momentum, why not just take him off TV? Why keep putting him in featured matches? Why not tell Bryan to stop encouraging the "Yes" chants? Why allow him to win Superstar of the Year? (They could have rigged it to be any winner they wanted.) It's not like they're forced to book Bryan as a top-level babyface. I think WWE knows exactly what they have with Bryan, they're glad he's so popular, and they'll use that popularity -- along with the paranoia from Bryan's fan base -- to make themselves some money.
ReplyDeletenice inclusion of w&w. truth be told, it follows selling england on my favorites list. 'eleventh earl of mar' ftw!!!
ReplyDeleteimo, duke deserves to be way higher, definitely above #'s 7 - 9. i hate the production of the shapes/mama/self-titled album, but the 1st side + track 1 on side 2 ('illegal alien') is strong stuff. i loathe 'taking it all too hard.' 'it's gonna get better' is good stuff,' and 'silver rainbow' and 'just a job to do' are ok
i'm not gaga over foxtrot, and actually find the seconds out version of 'supper's ready' to be preferable (as does the trio, from what i understand).
the lamb has too much filler (good filler, though) to be up there. but 'it' is the shit.
another fun fact: a couple of months ago i saw steve hackett on his 'genesis revisited' tour. amazing stuff. i legit got teary eyed during the beginning of 'dancing with the moonlit knight'
hahaha. Man you put it way better than I could.
ReplyDeleteCena offered Bryan a title shot IF he won. Assuming that Cena already knew that he was jobbing at TLC (and why wouldn't he), his going off the cuff carried no risk to the writers. As for the "poor planning" involved with having him in the ring, every former champ in the building was in the ring...that was kind of the point of the segment.
ReplyDeleteGoing back to your claim that "they know exactly what they have with Bryan," I wish I could still give them that much credit. But nothing about the booking of late allows me to make that leap. Hell, they tried to transition the "yes" chant to a generic babyface chant. I'm sure they've started to see the light (based on this week's booking), but only because the crowds have continued to beat them over the head with it.
Most historically insignificant Royal Rumble was 2004. For some reason, WWE forgot to have one that year.
ReplyDeleteShapes album side 1 is one of the best album sides in history. All killer stuff. Side two drags it down, though I enjoyed the sexual imagery of Silver Rainbow (the silver rainbow is a zipper)
ReplyDeleteOverall, Seconds Out is my favorite album, with Three Sides Live second (the four sides live version slightly preferred over the B-sides version) They really were a tremendous live band.
Only Genesis albums I find to be unlistenable are FGtR, when they still trying to discover who they were, and ATTW3, after which I really thought that they would be down for the count. They didn't find their groove after losing Hackett until Abacab.
I did not hate Calling All Stations, and would have liked to hear what the boys could have done with a second album. Ray Wilson was screwed over so bad that even Zack Ryder looked over and said "Whoa, tough break, bro!"
I'm glad someone else here can remember the AWA when it was a first-rate promotion. Like you, I spent my childhood in Winnipeg (late 70s-early 80s), and have great memories of a promotion that was firing on all cylinders. Over the last few years, I've occasionally checked out old AWA stuff from back then and earlier, just to make sure it wasn't simply childhood nostalgia making them look good. Suffice to say, it wasn't nostalgia.
ReplyDeleteIf pro wrestling stays with ESPN into the 1990s in some form (AWA perhaps merged with WCCW, or Vince gets a different TV deal) does it change how pro wrestling is viewed in the US? Does it make it any more respectable in the eyes of the common man? Or does "wrestling = sports entertainment" just show up sooner?
ReplyDeleteWell...they are all black ....
ReplyDeleteI'm curious how big of a deal Rick Martel was in 1985. I know I'm not the only one who was first introduced to him by way of The Model and not seeing any Strike Force stuff until much later. Is there a lot of his AWA stuff work checking out besides the title loss?
ReplyDeleteI'd bet that's why they picked Mark, yeah.
ReplyDeleteWhat made it even dumber to me is they actually were outside the ring showing concern for Tensai, then suddenly Truth yells for them to come dance and they suddenly forget he existed as they all start dancing and Tensai's battered corpse bleeds out.
ReplyDeletePart of the problem though is he never ACTS like it. Vince acted like it. If the fans had forced him into it, he'd be pissed about it. HHH just starts shouting "ARE YOU READDDDDDDDDY" and posing like he was totally a face all along.
ReplyDeleteAnd I don't even have nearly as much of a problem with all of the HHH stuff as many here do. But he's very, very rarely been made to look vulnerable at all during this angle. And it's difficult to even say Orton getting forced into these situations shows a vulnerable HHH, because HHH has made it very clear that they're not really 100% behind Orton.
Remember when the McMahon/Helmsley era started, and Rock got everyone together to go start the World Rock Federation, and HHH/Stephanie caved into their demands? That was "vulnerable". They tried to save face by stumbling around and saying "oh ummmm we were going to do that anyway", but it was obviously not the case at all. The Authority, meanwhile, hasn't really had that happen.
I feel like if they were going to go that route (and by the way, I'm 100% in agreement with you that they should have), the time to do it was months ago. They probably should have had Hell in a Cell be "Bryan's last title shot against Orton ever", and then have them screw around with him for months until he wins the Rumble, forcing their hand. I feel like there's not enough time now to properly build the whole "he's never getting a title shot again".
ReplyDeleteHad Cena not been hurt, they could have played this better by only doing one singles match between Bryan and Orton (and maybe not even that one), using Cena in triple threats with them to eventually build to the big blowoff at WM, rather than doing a whole 3 PPV feud (not counting Summerslam) between Bryan and Orton a few months before WM.
It played out like a scene from The Mack: "You're with us now, bitches."
ReplyDeleteI don't even care if Orton is apart of the main event at Mania, they can still have my money if it means we get Punk/HBK.
ReplyDeleteI know they had to have Bryan in the ring, so I'm saying it's poor planning to not have a script to address the big reaction Bryan would surely get from his home crowd. Which makes me think the Cena thing may not have been improv. The theme of his promo was that Orton hasn't worked for what he has, and right now WWE has built two main-event characters whose whole thing is that they've worked for everything they have: Cena and Bryan. Plus, with most people already assuming the Royal Rumble title match is a Cena-Orton-Bryan triple threat, the Seattle promo would obviously be planting the seeds for that. And I'm pretty sure they knew what their Rumble title match would be before December 9.
ReplyDeleteWWE knows how many Daniel Bryan t-shirts they're selling. They hear the "Yes" chants and see the signs. They encourage the "Yes" chants. They know Bryan is the people's champ right now, so I just don't buy that they're actually trying to hold him down or ignore the crowd's responses to him. The guy has been on the main event scene since July. He's headlined multiple PPVs and dozens of RAWs and Smackdowns since them. They put him on the inside cover of the 2K14 video game (at least he's on my copy). He's either going to be in the championship match at the Rumble, and if not, he's going to win the Rumble. WWE really really really likes Daniel Bryan.
Deep Purple.
ReplyDeleteAt least KISS and Nirvana got in.
ReplyDeleteAs someone who's going to 31, I'm on board with this.
ReplyDeleteThat's an excellent point.
ReplyDeleteYou have a metric shit-ton more faith in their intelligence and long-term planning than I do. I'm not saying it's impossible that they had the foresight to book things this way to blow Bryan up even bigger than he was, but it's REALLY unlikely. It would be a stroke of genius the likes of which hasn't been seen from this company in a large number of years.
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