Aside from a turn making no sense from a business stand point, I also don't think it makes sense from the stand point that a heel Cena was actually pretty terrible to be honest. Mind you I'm old school and prefer my heels making me want to legitimately hate them, not repeating their catch phrases or laughing at their raps. I just always felt Cena never had it in him to be a real true heel. If it didn't work 10 years ago why would anyone think it would work today?
He's not turning heel. Although you are objectively wrong if you think that the Doctor of Thuganomics wasn't awesome. Cena's promo work on Monday and in previous times shows that if he wanted to be a true heel, he would RULE. Hell, look up a clip of his OCD behavior with Nikki on Total Divas, where he's apparently a condescending dick. That character, the corporate musclehead stooge super-jock who never let go of the high school pecking order, would be PERFECT for him.
Cena would make an awesome heel these days, for sure. I don't think he'd go back to the rapping Doctor - he'd just have to slightly tweak his current character, and - to the original e-mailer - you'd hate him.
ReplyDeleteThe Doctor of Thuganomics was juvenile bullshit at best, to be honest. I'm glad he moved away from that as time went on, because I'm no longer 16 years old.
ReplyDeleteI like the idea of Cena's behavior mirroring what Scott says because it would drive the average internet wrestling nerd *up the wall*. =)
The best heel character, and best chance they had at turning him, was at last year's WM. The Shield helps him beat the Rock, Cena is revealed as the leader of the Shield. Cena's new look could have been black cargo shorts, a black bullet proof vest, and a black hat.
ReplyDelete*Black headband around his bicep.
ReplyDelete*Black hightops, but white socks.
ReplyDeleteI'm predicting 10-12 cena turning heel snapping the streak scenarios here. It's still am interesting idea to me but I'd do Cena/Taker this year and then do the Cena turn at a rematch at 31.
ReplyDeleteFrom a character standpoint, heel Cena would rule. Just have him go the "I broke my back and did everything for the fans, and I got booed for 5 years. Fuck you losers." That character incentive plus the stuff Scott mentioned would be a great heel character
Rise above the need to differentiate between heels and faces!
ReplyDeleteToo heelish.
ReplyDeleteCadillac, yeah. The boy's a time bomb.
ReplyDeleteBlack sandals and white socks?
ReplyDeleteHere's the ironic thing about a Cena heel turn....he'd probably be so good in the role that the smark side of the crowd would love him, then you have the exact opposite problem. Imagine heel Cena against some would-be WWE popular face (Big Show, Sheamus, etc.) and suddenly you'd have the louder male contingent in the arena chanting "let's go Cena!"
ReplyDeleteI think part of the "Cena needs to turn" narrative is driven by the fact that people KNOW Cena would make an awesome heel. I have no doubt he has the talent to pull of one of the greatest dick-heels in recent time if turned. Part of the problem is that he'd have to PG it down, but take a heel Cena like Scott described above, and put him in the ring against everyman ass-kicking Steve Austin back in the Attitude Era....money.
ReplyDeleteJesus, this topic AGAIN? Are you trolling us, bro?
ReplyDeleteIf Cena ever turns (I used to think it was inevitable since if Hogan can, anyone can but I honestly doubt it will happen now) it will only be because McMahon and HHH have picked his successor and they beat Cena at a WM.
ReplyDeleteNever say never and all that but I think Cena will decide to retire before they ever entertain the idea seriously.
I hope I'm wrong
Doctor of Thuganomics was TOO awesome; IIRC, he started getting face pops when he feuded with Lesnar.
ReplyDeleteCena turning heel isn't impossible. But it's not going to be until the next big superstar who can move merch comes along, and guys like that don't come along often. Hogan, Austin, and the Rock are the only ones I've seen in my lifetime, and only two of those were deliberate creations; they luckily stumbled into Austin.
The whole "Cena not turning heel because it doesn't make sense for business" is bullshit. If done properly, a heel turn (and him being good at it/showing ass/putting people over/not being HHH) presumably would create other, new stars. Possibly even legit new faces of the company. Leaving "the business" in better shape as he phases out.
ReplyDeleteCena not turning heel, because of the money he makes as top babyface has always struck me as one of the most underrated, selfish, political maneuverings of all time.
The problem is there is no one the office trusts to replace Heel Cena as top face. Of course, that's they're own fault for cutting the legs out from every hot new act.
ReplyDeleteEven better.
ReplyDeleteI vehemently disagree with that statement. Cena would be an effective heel. Forget the DOT gimmick, Cena was amazing trolling the crowd at One Night Stand when he faced RVD. His body language alone made the crowd want to jump over the guardrail and punch him in the face.
ReplyDeleteThe old, Cena disliking me would say "Who doesn't want to do that?"
ReplyDeleteDisagree. It's "bad for business" in the sense you need a corporate avatar to do all the PR/corporate shit he does. The corporate brand is above above all else, especially any wrestling angle they could do.
ReplyDeleteThey know not would draw money in the wrasslin bubble. That's the issue tho, you need to draw every last dime out of face Cena. They could do it tomorrow and it would be the biggest angle in 5 years but you can only shoot your load once on this and they need to make sure they have a new corporate avatar lined up, Cenas face run can't draw another dime, perfect storyline, etc.
eh...there's the younger fans/children to consider. Cena himself has said that he can't see turning heel because of all the Make A Wish stuff he does. And, I would say that it's more about the company not wanting to turn him because of the financial benefits than it is Cena. But, I have no evidence of that.
ReplyDeleteStill, what you said does make some sense, but I don't think he's anywhere close to phasing out yet, and when he does, I don't believe he'd want to go out as a heel.
Exactly. Whether he's face or heel, there will always be that smark-ish section of the audience that wants to be contrarion just for the sake of it. That isn't a valid reason to turn their biggest cash-cow
ReplyDelete100% agree - "ONS 2006", "MITB 2011", and his constant trolling of fans wearing "I Hate Cena" shirts all prove that he can be an incredible smarmy asshole. He also showed in 2003 that he can display a real vicious streak.
ReplyDeleteHe could easily be another 2000-era Trips.
Re-booking the Invasion will be next week's rehash, I'm thinking. Just to hit for the cycle before the end of the year.
ReplyDeleteCena will turn heel 5-10 years from now when his career is in decline for one final hurrah similar to Hogan. Don't expect it any time soon. And he will not be the "Doctor of Thuganomics" heel because he will be well into his 40s by then. Instead, he will be a sellout arrogant heel.
ReplyDeleteJohn Cena is the Rodimus Prime of professional wrestling.
ReplyDeleteThink about it.
I think it makes more storyline sense at that point anyway. Once he is not longer the guy who can beat EVERYONE on his own and no-sells every beatdown. The guy who is struggling to hang on and needs to become a ratfuck cheating asshole in order to beat the younger rising talent. Somewhat like Hogan in '96, who was no longer the guy who could win with a comeback, a boot and a legdrop--the ego came out and he had to lie, cheat, and steal in order to stay the top guy.
ReplyDeleteThe guy who beats heel Cena for the undisputed title would be the next guy.
ReplyDeleteAnd don't forget that a heel cena would also sell merchandise. nWo did...
I get your point, in that Hogan ended up making huge merchandising money as a heel leading the nWo. The difference there is that Hogan's act was on its way down the drain and had been rung dry to the point that the heel turn was worth the risk. Right now, Cena may be as stale as it gets, but he hasn't shown the signs of losing his merch/drawing power as top babyface.
ReplyDeleteThey have Sheamus, Orton, Daniel Bryan, CM Punk, maybe Antonio Cesaro or Wade Barrett or Ryback or Roman Reigns. ;)
ReplyDeletePut racist Harley Race in his corner and anything is possible.
ReplyDeleteHave Triple H helping him against Orton and BOOM, a new top heel is born. Then Bryan can win the Rumble and he can beat Cena at Wrestlemania. They could also let him win his title back at Backlash or Extreme Rules and then build another guy for Summer Slam.
ReplyDeleteThreadjack and the Beanstalk...
ReplyDeleteOf all the crazy things going on, apparently this WWE comic book Foley wrote isn't terrible. AICN, and comicsalliance aren't actively hating it.
Will wonders never cease?
I always imagined heel Cena as wearing regular tights, sort of like Randy Orton. The cargo/jean shorts are too iconic to the John Cena gimmick, and even the Doctor of Thuganomics gimmick, and in order for Cena to be a true heel, he'd have to disown both of those.
ReplyDeleteHarley Racist, please.
ReplyDeleteI don't know. Racist Harley Race has a nice ring to it.
ReplyDeleteI'm not much into comics, and Mick's fiction hasn't been stellar, but if it's reviewing well, I might have to check it out.
ReplyDeleteNo.
ReplyDeleteI would eat that shit up. Cena going to the dark side to accomplish the one thing in wrestling that nobody else has ever done as a way to silence the critics who say "You can't wrestle," "SCSA was better," "You'll never be as popular as the Rock," thereby cementing his legacy as the best of all time. Yeah, that would be amazing. It's not going to happen, but I can dream.
ReplyDeleteWell said.
ReplyDeletenWo sold millions and millions of t-shirts. Virtually EVERYONE had an nWo shirt. It was well outside the wrestling bubble. Heels can move merchandise.
ReplyDeleteAnd there's no reason someone like Daniel Bryan can't make the trips to the local children's hospital, or do interviews on ESPN. Many (not all, obviously) guys could be plugged in to the Cena PR machine that WWE has created, they're just afraid to do it.
Bingo.
ReplyDeleteIm not saying heels cant move merchandise. Im saying that merchandise, ppv buyrates, and wrestling angles themselves are peanuts compared to corporate deals and advertising dollars. Theyve built a brand they want to protect and keep it low risk. Cena is a walking avatar for wwe and is synonymous with wwe, itll be the very last thing they do to turn him heel
ReplyDeleteBut that could be because WWE and Cena has reached the nadir of their popularity. At this point the argument could be made the WWE brand is selling more shirts than the Cena brand, and if a different face were plugged in to the "Cena formula" he would go on selling the same number of t-shirts. But, the consequence is that their losing any growth potential because they don't try to appeal to anything outside the under-10 + parents demographic.
ReplyDeleteThe way I see it, with the reputation WWE has right now, the under 10 + parent demographic isn't going away. They're losing money by not expanding beyond that though. Cena's character is a testament to that: half the audience cheers, half the audience boos. Why not have a true top heel that gives the other half what they want?
Make Cena and the C Cup Bella the new Kanye and Kim Kardashian. Have Cena condescendingly spit catchphrases like Apollo Creed and pandering to the crowd (to appease the kids) while getting pissed off that he doesn't get the respect he deserves (to piss off the adults) is golden. Especially when he gives that smirk. Have him backed by HHH and there you have it.
ReplyDeleteBecause the Bellas aren't liked the heel turn will be blamed on her corrupting him..
..or giving him gonorrhea, either one.
Cena is the only guy who can do make-a-wish appearances? The NBA and NFL feels hundreds of requests annually. They're not sending Peyton Manning and Lebron James to every single one. Other guys can do the PR just as well as Cena.
ReplyDeleteThe guy who beats Cena for the title could be the next guy...if they don't neuter him on live TV for the next 6 months. Which, they would.
ReplyDeleteThose requests are specifically for John Cena to appear. Nobody wants Tensai or Zach Ryder to show up at their bedside.
ReplyDeleteSo true. The paradigm in entertainment has shifted. Started with the Soprano's continued with The Wire and has expanded onto other shows. Hollywood has recognized that having a black/white good guy isn't necessary. Moral ambiguity puts butts in seats/eyes on TV.
ReplyDeletethe nWo was lightning in a botlte in many, many ways. Yes, they sold a lot of merchandise. There's very little evidence of other heels moving merch. gear to that level.
ReplyDeleteThat would be Pat Patterson's wish.
ReplyDeleteI couldnt disagree more, in the wrestling world. Yea, its not cookie cutter goodie goodie faces that sell but wreslers should always be defined faces or heels for the most part. There is a place for tweeners but predominantly it should always be defined heels and faces
ReplyDeleteCena's behavior on Total Divas gives me whiplash. One episode he's making total sense and giving good advice...the next he's an OCD freak who would literally push away everyone who loves him. My feeling is that the latter is all scripted whereas the former is still scripted but more true to life. Poor characterization, either way.
ReplyDeleteAnd I love that they can't mention his ex-wife on that show. Watching them tip toe around it while he tries to have Nikki sign the house guest contract was fun.
You'll need to expand on that.
ReplyDeletePlease don't.
ReplyDeleteThat was funny, they should totally do that.
ReplyDeleteCena would be so good as a heel that he'd be cheered and made face and lose the stuff people liked so they'd boo him and he'd turn heel and then they'd cheer him again.
ReplyDeleteMight as well keep him face.
The leader the corporation wanted but the original fanbase hated?
ReplyDeleteI don't think people realise that if anyone else DID make more money than Cena, they'd have his spot. Vince McMahon wasn't loyal to Hogan, you think he's going to be loyal to Cena if someone better comes along?
ReplyDeleteAnd by better, I mean 'buyrates don't drop rapidly.'
Yes. Or he morphs into the thing he claims he hates the most: "Hollywood" Rock.
ReplyDeletejdg9 pretty much covered it. Cena is the guy who is, apparently far and away, in the largest demand. They *desperately* need to build up someone else.
ReplyDeleteAnyone remember when ECW fans yelled 'YOU CAN'T WRESTLE' and 'SAME OLD SHIT' at John Cena? And then Cena proceeded to use new moves, worked harder than RVD, and carried the match?
ReplyDeleteFarva pretty well covered it. But, they can't *all* be tweeners,or that would get old. There has to be a degree of variety.
ReplyDeleteUltimately, it's hard to say who will catch fire and why. Nash didn't have Hogan's run, and Vince really tried for it; same with Luger. If they really had the formula down, they wouldn't be in their current state.
When I get home I will be making a meme out of this.
ReplyDeleteName heels other the nWo who moved merchandise to that level.
ReplyDeletesounds like some weird wrestler/garbage pail kid mashup
ReplyDeletehe originally was little johnny cena but once he managed to unlock the matrix b/w nikki's legs he... grew... and stuff?
ReplyDeleteIt could have happened during the CM Punk or the DBry feud.
ReplyDeleteI'm only going to address a portion of the argument....
ReplyDeleteWhenever people bring up 'heels don't move merchandise', the response is always some variation of 'the nWo did!'.
My thoughts - the nWo was lightning in a bottle in so many ways. How many other heels have sold merchandise in any where near that number? They were the exception, not the rule. And more importantly, they weren't one guy. They were a movement. They captured something that rebellious teenagers ate up. I'm not sure a Cena heel turn would do so. I think he could play a great heel. I don't think he could play a rebellious anti-authority heel the way the nWo (or Austin) did.
There are some compelling arguments to make for Cena turning heel, but assuming that he'd sell merchandise like the nWo did is not one of them.
Stone Cold was heel first, wasn't he?
ReplyDeleteHow many of the truly great heels ever had merchandise? The Horsemen could have moved serious product if they weren't saddled with Crockett's piss-poor merchandising.
ReplyDeleteThat was admirable; he also shouldn't have done it. He was the heel that night. I'd have done four 5-knuckle shuffles in a row.
ReplyDeleteFuck yes
ReplyDeleteThe joke went over your head.
ReplyDeleteNicki would have to convince him to change. It could play out on Total Divas where she takes John shopping and does an image makeover. She would have to sell herself as a gold digger.
ReplyDeleteWhile they're at it, Brie could go face and they can feud.
You can shorten it to Racist Race.
ReplyDeleteSign me up for a CeNwO shirt!
ReplyDeleteThey could have done this with Nexus as well.
ReplyDeleteTrips sold a ton of merchandise in 2000/2001. Obviously not "nWo"-level, but he had a LOT of stuff that could be seen in the audience. Rock and "DX" also sold a lot of merch during their heel runs (though it obviously went up when they turned face).
ReplyDeleteNot disagreeing with your argument, just trying to think of some other examples.
Macho Man sold a LOT of merch.
ReplyDeleteEhh, whether he increased the work-rate or completely devolved in that match, either choice would have been done to troll the audience and likely gotten the same amount of heat.
ReplyDeleteHe could just call himself "'Supreme' Race".
ReplyDeleteIf heels didn't sell merchandise, they wouldn't make merchandise to sell. There has to be some money in or they wouldn't market the products.
ReplyDeleteThat being said, I do agree with you that I don't think Cena would sell as much as a heel as he would as a face.
I dunno, a 40+ year-old "Doctor of Thuganomics" would be a FANTASTIC heel character.
ReplyDeleteI really liked that movie. One of the Transformers said "Shit"!
ReplyDeleteMaster Race.
ReplyDeleteBreak out the Worm and the People's Elbow.
ReplyDeleteSpike said, "Oh Shit!!"
ReplyDeleteI would have done that dumb as smirk every chance I got.
ReplyDeleteHeel action figures will always sell.
ReplyDeleteI would definitely buy "You Can't See Me" leather jogging pants.
ReplyDeleteChicken or egg? If they built up other stars as "face(s) of the company" the requests would shift.
ReplyDeleteThe Nexus shirts were ALL OVER Raw before that stable had its legs cut out from under it.
ReplyDeleteBut he did do a racist angle in WCW with Ron Simmons, so the guy isn't entirely wrong.
ReplyDeleteWell Punk said that he always wanted to have merch that didn't look like the average wrestler's shirt and you could wear anywhere. If the shirt is simple and looks good then most fans will wear it.
ReplyDeleteThe theory would be:
ReplyDeleteHeel John Cena merch (He would still sell) + Multiple Megahot Babyfaces (with good stories vs Heel John Cena) merch > Current John Cena merch.
Without looking at the numbers, I believe it to be true. Obviously they would never do it properly, and won't take the chance until they pull the trigger 2 years too late.
I imagine WWE is basing their decisions on house show reactions, which are decidedly less smarky. Even when I went to MSG last year, when I was expecting a huge backlash against Cena, the cheers definitely out-weighed the boos.
ReplyDeleteOnce the house show reactions change, I think THAT's when you'll see a heel turn, not with boos on TV.
And that's the point and the problem. I think he feels this way. And it's to the detriment of the product and business that has gotten him Nice cars, Nice houses and balls deep in many divas.
ReplyDeleteEvery single one of us would do the same thing, though. Money talks, who cares about everything else?
ReplyDeleteBrian Cashman was asked earlier today if he would have done the same thing as Robinson Cano, take a $240 million payday, or make less money to play for the Yankees. He said he totally would have followed the money to fucking Seattle.
I am a pro Cena heel turn guy. It is something I really want to see as a fan, as simple as that. Scott's awesome explanation of why it would rule almost makes up for the Harley Race botch.
ReplyDeleteI guess you're right and I'm the mark for thinking anyone in the WWE gives a fuck about the long term health of professional wrestling. Let alone a bodybuilder who got lucky as fuck.
ReplyDeleteHe absolutely is. He's the guy that got passed the torch that no one expected would get it. In Transformers, Optimus dies, he passes the Matrix to Ultra Magnus, because he's the next in command, the strongest military general Prime has. But the Matrix doesn't work for him.
ReplyDeleteInstead, it works for Hot Rod, the young fuck-up who everyone yells at for being impetuous and immature. He gets turned into Rodimus Prime to light the Autobots darkest hour.
And everyone hates him for getting the promotion.
Such a perfect comparison.
I don't think it's as unlikely as everyone seems to think, though it's pretty unlikely, but yes - Cena would make an awesome heel.
ReplyDeleteI don't believe that anyone has ever cared about the long-term health of professional wrestling, especially once WCW started doling out those guaranteed paydays.
ReplyDeleteEven the guys who talk about doing what's best for THIS BUSINESS (maybe especially those guys - I'm looking at you, Triple H, Bret Hart, Ric Flair and Hulk Hogan) wanted to get paid before everything else.
And because of this, the only company that's still making bank is the one run by a bigger egomaniac than the guys he's paying. Because what's best for Vince is the continued existence of the WWE, it survives. I'm not sure we'll be able to say the same thing once Hunter takes over.
Nothing Scott can do will ever make up for the Harley Race botch
ReplyDeleteNever forget
They did have merchandise - there were Four Horsemen T-shirts and of course the legendary Four Horsemen vitamins. I have no idea how well any of them sold.
ReplyDeleteUmmm..
ReplyDeleteNobody is saying that Harley is a racist in real life. People are joking around with the fact that Scott got Race and Flair mixed up with his top 10 List on Whatculture.com
And that's why I always consider buying Punk shirts, especially if the WWE logo is kind of hidden.
ReplyDeleteIf they had 2X "Heyman guy" shirts when I went to Raw in July, I would have bought one, but the other fat guys in the audience beat me to it...
Instant feud with Master P over who is the true Master of wrestling. Big Kev could reunite the Master-Blasters as well.
ReplyDeleteDon't forget Sid, the master and ruler of the world!
ReplyDeleteI've attached a link to a picture of him
ReplyDeletehttp://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/01/Poster-sized_portrait_of_Barack_Obama_OrigRes.jpg
He also was one of the Masters of the Powerbomb.
ReplyDeleteWell, we still need to squeeze in the Montreal Screwjob and Flair's departure from WCW in 1991. Perhaps with a special "Vince Russo, pro or con" snuck in there.
ReplyDeleteBut he was responsible for Optimus Prime dying and everyone hated him.
ReplyDeleteAre you insisting Obama is racist?
ReplyDeleteIDONTGETYOURJOKE
I agree, and there is definitely a fine line between being a mark for the business and being a businessman, It has been toed in the past and I think is still being toed by some in the business today. I recognize his out of ring stuff with the military and make-a-wish kids, it's awesome and he's helping wrestling's image in that respect. But if the product in ring and on tv is shit for long enough, there will be very little image for the next generation to help with at all.
ReplyDelete