Weekly "What if" time mofos. This was a suggestion from someone. Im sure we all know the backstory/urban legend so I'll keep it short.
What if the MSG incident never happened, and HHH won the 1996 King of the Ring instead of Steve Austin?
Things to consider:
- Nash and Hall were on their way to WCW, thus opening up a few top level roster spots.
- Austins 3:16 speech. I think the whole "Austins career skyrocketed after the 3:16 moment" is revisionist WWE history, but how important was this moment to his career arc?
- Does Austin eventually get his push, and get to work with Bret Hart (the feud that put him on the map) without winning KOTR?
- If HHH wins KOTR and gets a singles push, do we ever get DX as we know it? If so, what are the ramifications of no DX in the late 90s?
- Was HHH ready for a top level push in 96? If he fails, does he get "future endeavored" at some point?
Just a jumpoff point, go nuts.
What if the MSG incident never happened, and HHH won the 1996 King of the Ring instead of Steve Austin?
Things to consider:
- Nash and Hall were on their way to WCW, thus opening up a few top level roster spots.
- Austins 3:16 speech. I think the whole "Austins career skyrocketed after the 3:16 moment" is revisionist WWE history, but how important was this moment to his career arc?
- Does Austin eventually get his push, and get to work with Bret Hart (the feud that put him on the map) without winning KOTR?
- If HHH wins KOTR and gets a singles push, do we ever get DX as we know it? If so, what are the ramifications of no DX in the late 90s?
- Was HHH ready for a top level push in 96? If he fails, does he get "future endeavored" at some point?
Just a jumpoff point, go nuts.
Austin's 3:16 speech was really the tipping point for that character. Did he skyrocket right after that? No, but I'd say it's where the legend began, so to speak. Would he have gotten is push and feuded with Bret without winning KOTR? Maybe. Ultimately, I think the Stone Cold character would have found a way to come out. If 3:16 doesn't happen, Austin probably would have spouted something else that would have become a focal point.
ReplyDeleteDX would probably still have happened in some form because of the relationship between HBK and HHH.
HHH was NOT fucking ready for a top level push. He would not have been let go because of the lack of talent they had at the time.
I suppose it's possible that HHH might have surprised everyone had he won KOTR, but I seriously doubt it.
The HHH side of this interested me most in writing this. I think Austin still becomes Austin, it just takes longer. If Hunters in the midst of a si goes push in 96, I'm not sure we get DX. A non DX attitude era is interesting...is the Attitude Era a little less successful? Did DX help revitalize heel Michaels that last year he was around?
ReplyDeleteI don't know why you would think it's revisionist history that Austin took off after Austin 3:16. Maybe not by today's standards, where he would've squashed IC champion Marc Mero on Raw every week, but he was definitely catching on.
ReplyDeleteWWE paints it as he was on his way to the top after that speech. He floundered around for awhile until he got into a program with Bret
ReplyDeleteHow is the Austin 3:16 moment revisionist history? Just watch and listen to the POP from the crowd when he says the 3:16 line. I mean, it's instant heat and pure awesome.
ReplyDeleteIt's also (I believe) the highest-selling t-shirt in wrestling history so without that moment, he'd need to stumble into another catchphrase that was the #1 selling t-shirt in history...so that's tough.
Triple H was going to get put over whenever the WWF decided to pull the trigger because he was friends with HBK.
DX is so overrated in terms of what they meant for the Attitude Era. Without DX, the WWF still rockets to #1 on Austin's back. Without Austin, the WWF probably goes out of business.
ReplyDeleteI'm sure they could've found other guys to make dick jokes.
Austin would have gotten over at some point, as he was too good and his character was catching on with the people. HHH would have been SHIT. ON. winning KOTR. That character was a dead end. He only started making waves when he became the smartass heel.
ReplyDelete-Without the 3:16 speech, Austin probably sells a few less T-shirts, but I don't think it affects his character that much. He'd have come up with some other "defining moment," at least in hindsight, because he was just that awesome.
ReplyDelete-No way Austin was being held down. He hit gold with the character and the timing, could go in the ring, and had enough friends backstage to navigate the political games. So yeah, I think with or without the KOTR he gets that feud with Hart and the strap at WM14 on his way to the tippy top.
-Even without the KOTR in 1996, Trips still got something of a singles push in the IC title ranks and the 1997 KOTR...it just didn't get anyone to really give a shit about him. Unless winning the tournament in 1996 gets him over, which I don't think it does, Trips is still going to have to glom on to HBK and the DX schtick to get over.
-Fuck no Trips wasn't ready. He didn't get over as a main event guy for another 3.5 years!
Austin was driving business, absolutely. DX was the top heel faction when wwe was really coming into their own. By all accounts, shane, russo, michaels and hunter were the biggest advocates for "edgy". I dont think theyre "overrated" at all
ReplyDeleteIts revisionist history in the sense the wwe paints Austins career as instantly taking off after that speech. He floundered around with savio vega after that. It wasnt until Bret that he was really viewed as the guy.
ReplyDeleteStill chuckling about that last line.
ReplyDeleteI think it pretty much works out the same way. Triple H wasn't going to get over, so after he flounders post KOTR win he gets shunted down to the midcard and then gets paired with Shawn as an effort to get something out of him.
ReplyDeleteSorry, but the career trajectory for Austin is totally different without 3:16. Austin had found the bad-assery element of his character for sure, but it's hard to overstate how important catch phrases were in that period as well as how the 3:16 connected with a counter-cultural element which drove the early Attitude era. With 3:16, he questions religious and moral authority. That resonated with 20-somethings which really drove the Attitude era ratings. I think Austin gets to Main Event status, but not necessarily the Mount Rushmore of over he sits on now.
ReplyDeleteThere's actually another part of this which is an interesting butterfly effect of all this: no neck injury as the Owen botched piledriver doesn't happen. I could see Steve Austin wrestling the tail end of his career today without that particular injury.
If Bret still handpicks Austin to have his comeback match with, then no problems with Austin. Although Austin 3:16 sure helped push his character into the stratosphere.
ReplyDeleteHHH....hmmm. I can't remember any promos as his blue-blood character. So by winning KOTR does he get to drop that gimmick quicker and move into his edgier, pre-DX HHH character instead? Not sure where he'll end up fitting in with the Austin/Rock/Owen IC feud as Bret and Michaels do the US/Canada bit. Perhaps we talk of HHH'ing after winning KOTR instead of Billy Gunning it.
Here's a question: How much longer was Roberts with the company after KOTR?
ReplyDeleteBecause if there's an Austin/Roberts feud possible in 1996 (instead of Savio, maybe?), Austin 3:16 WILL happen.
Other than that, most of the changes would be more... subtle. For example, maybe Austin doesn't break his neck against Owen, which doesn't put Owen in the "doghouse", which keeps the Blue Blazer on the shelf.
But overall, I can't see too many changes to the main timeline. Bret and Shawn still hate each other, Bret and Austin will still collide, as will Shawn/DX and UT, and in the end, very little will change long term. But those "little" changes might be enough to have huge effects down the road.
Small "issue" with 3:16, however:
ReplyDeleteWould it be as huge if Austin used it on a RAW, post-PPV victory over Roberts... instead of "on the spot" after his KOTR victory? I think so... but sometimes those little things end up being huge.
But it became the cornerstone of his character for years. The Attitude era needed a counter-cultural element. Dick jokes are one thing, but the 3:16 was something that was a bit shocking for WWF at the time. Without it, Austin remains a bad-ass but not as counter-cultural.
ReplyDeleteIm not disagreeing with this, or even doubting the importance ofthe ccatchphrase...im just saying that the idea that has career completely skyrocketed after the speech isnt true. It helped the pro austin movement but he wasnt main eventing the next day lkme the way wwe portrays it
ReplyDeleteThese what if threads suck
ReplyDeleteI will bet you the Attitude Era never happens.
ReplyDeleteFrankly, how often did Austin say that on television anyway? It was a t-shirt, but "that's the bottom line" was his real catchphrase.
ReplyDeletewhat if my aunt had balls?
ReplyDeleteHHH was never really over until DX. He was a run-of-the-mill mid-card heel with no real heat. If he won KOTR, he probably would've gotten one or two PPV title shots against HBK in 1996. He would've lost those matches and then gone the way of Mabel and Shamrock as former KsOTR. Again, HHH was extremely forgettable without DX and by flopping as KOTR, who's to say he would ever be paired with HBK.
ReplyDeleteAs for Austin, the character was going to catch on anyway as he, not the slogan, was the WWF's answer to the NWO as far as anti-establishment, edgy content. WWF was going the way of "attitude" no matter what as it was the only way the company could have survived the late 1990s.
I just don't see him being paired with Shawn on-screen after a major flop-run as an upper mid-carder. It was well over a year later when DX was born and I think HHH would've been a sunken ship long before then.
ReplyDeleteHe didn't have a memorable promo until the sit down interview with Jim Ross and called himself "the Game"
ReplyDeleteYou are right. What sells people is one phrase that defines them and is easy to market.
ReplyDelete"YES!"
ReplyDeleteAustin REALLY didn't skyrocket until the McMahon feud. The Bret stuff was great but it was a benchmark and not the defining moment the Austin McMahon feud was.
ReplyDeleteI think Triple H and Shawn had enough clout backstage and Vince was committed enough to Hunter that it would have happened. I mean, he basically floundered as a mid-carder through all of 1996 and most of 1997 even as they tried to get him over with the Goldust/Marlena stuff and the summer program with Foley. They had plenty of time to dump him if they were going to.
ReplyDeleteBut it wasn't 3:16 that made him the tippy top mega star...it was the McMahon feud. Hell, that was nearly 2 years after the 3:16 speech.
ReplyDeleteMust suck then that somebody is holding you at gunpoint and forcing you to read and participate in them.
ReplyDeleteHe did mention it a few times. I remember when he was feuding with the Rock and the NOD there was a RAW that was built around him paging '316' to the Rock before attacking him.
ReplyDeleteBut then, you could also say that the neck injury was a big boost in his career because without it he probably doesn't have the feud with Vince McMahon.
ReplyDeleteI'd say the feud with VKM sent it into the stratosphere, but Austin/Bret was pretty damn huge. I can remember how much people got behind the guy, particularly post WM13.
ReplyDeleteThe 3:16 moment is where I think people behind the scenes stopped and considered the idea of pushing Stone Cold. The reaction he got in the weeks that followed probably cemented it.
The more I think about it, the more I think the mythos of the 3:16 speech really is just narrative as it's a nice starting point for the genesis of Stone Cold and the Attitude era more broadly. But really, Austin didn't become THE GUY until after Survivor Series 1997, the McMahon feud is what made him REALLY blow up to undisputed megastar levels, and in the grand scheme of things Montreal is infinitely more important to all of that history than KOTR 1996.
ReplyDeleteIn other words: take away the 3:16 speech, keep Austin's post Series 1996 run intact, create the Mr. McMahon character, and very little changes in the grand scheme of things.
There was also the awesome, "You're not gonna see Austin 3:16, you're gonna see Austin 6:66" line.
ReplyDeleteThe Tyson rub was what made him a tippy-top star in my opinion. It's what led to mainstream media attention.
ReplyDeleteI figure KotR begets 3:16 begets Bret begets TV time and looking strong begets DX feud begets Tyson rub begets McMahon feud. I'm not so sure he gets to run with the ball as much as he does without KotR
He did it on pay per view in the days before everything was scripted. I think there's a bit more latitude on pay-per-view than on basic cable.
ReplyDeleteIMO, Bret-Austin WM13 was what made Stone Cold a star, the WM14 main event with Shawn & Mike Tyson made him a media star, and the McMahon feud is what kept people tuning in while the WWF were creating viable opposition to Austin.
ReplyDeleteIs this a question you find yourself asking a lot?
ReplyDeleteI don't see any way he doesn't get a shot. That character was going to get over like rover one way or another, and WCW had Vince in so much trouble by that point that he just couldn't afford to ignore that sort of crowd reaction.
ReplyDeleteThat sounds reasonable to me.
ReplyDeleteI never read them. Not so much anymore. Im just bummed that quality of posting here has dropped tremendously. Use to look forward to this site very much when it had quality posts from fuj, cult, and even ryan. Now everyone is trying to put themselves over. Whether its softcore porn gifs from jef. To horrible comedy from parallax. Tengermans only posts during raw to put over his comedy bits. As a lurker, it just makes me sad thats all:((((((((((
ReplyDeleteP.s your analogy is also retarded jdg9. Thats like saying no one is forcing to watch monday night raw. We are creatures of habit. I tend to still look over things that suck with the hope that theyll get better :(
ReplyDeleteI'm kind of surprised how many people think "Austin 3:16" is the defining moment and/or catchphrase of Austin's career. When it comes to merchandising he had about ten zillion phrases etc. people latching onto, including but not limited to:
ReplyDelete"Austin 3:16"
"DTA - Don't Trust Anybody"
"Oh Hell Yeah"
"Open a can of whup-ass"
"WHAT"
Like many others have said, if it wasn't 3:16, it would've been something else. He (like the Rock, and to a lesser extent HHH) was creative and savvy enough to come up with lots of different ways to market himself.
"What if" WWE was run then the way it is now? William Stevens wins King of the Ring. "You talk about your Bible. You talk about your John 3:16. Well, Stevens 3:16 says I just beat you with a distracted roll-up!" He beats Todd Wright (Goldust) for the IC championship on Raw the next night, proceeds to defend it never and has a feud with whatever wacky authority heel figure is in charge that week. A heel Gorilla Monsoon? Maybe.
ReplyDeleteOn "A Very Brady Bunch Raw," Stevens dances with Gary Cole and Shelley Long. At "In Your House: Breaking Point," Stevens loses the IC title to Eric Johnson (Ahmed) on the pre-show.
I'm just gonna leave this here...
ReplyDelete(unrelated, Jef safe image)
https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/7953466112/h7B43A3E8/
The pillman beatings got Austin over more than pinning Jake Roberts and Marc mero. He was going to be the #1 guy no matter what. This was a different era, vince was forced to push over acts.
ReplyDeleteI'd say it was a happy coincidence that needing to give Austin a lighter schedule happened at the same time that he had no viable opponents. Adding McMahon to the mix made the threat of losing the title credible.
ReplyDeleteAnd there was the 'Bang 3:16' thing with Vince...
ReplyDeleteWas it? We all know that the WWF/WWE NEVER cuts off guys at the knees who are successfully getting over.
ReplyDeleteAustin didn't get over on his own, he had to go over a bunch of guys in a really strong fashion. He basically destroyed the entire roster, pissed on M$M on his way out of the promotion, and debuted the Stone Cold Stunner as his finisher around this time.
On the Raw 20 disc, it has Austin on Raw after winning KOTR (with his old music, too). Barely a reaction...
ReplyDeleteAn alternate question off of this: Have we missed out on another "Austin 3:16" moment with wrestlers now being heavily scripted? Yeah, we still got "YES" from Daniel Bryan. But if wrestlers were able to just go out there and wing it could we have had a huge phrase or moment from them? And who do you think could have had that big moment?
ReplyDeleteYeah, I think he does. Vince might cut guys off now and at various points in the past, but he just couldn't afford to do that then. I'd say that the Bret feud, Royal Rumble bit, and general badassery of his character was going to push him to that tipping point level no matter what, and Vice was going to have to give him a shot on top because he was looking at going out of business otherwise.
ReplyDelete...she would be able to play games involving...balls?
ReplyDeleteRusso and Ross had to push Vince so much to get Austin a prime position after King of the Ring--even Bret Hart went to bat for him. McMahon simply saw him as a good hand (technician along the lines of Benoit in later years). Russo has stated many times that he put Austin on the cover of the Raw magazine after King of the Ring with "Austin 316" and McMahon tried to get him to change it--he didn't like the religious overtones and didn't "get it." McMahon may know how to market, but he's really bad at picking talent sometimes (same goes for his HHH).
ReplyDeleteMeh, I can understand being nervous about the potential backlash of marketing something like that around out and out blasphemy, especially from a company that ultimately markets itself to kids.
ReplyDeleteFor some reason, the NFL just gets a free pass on everything from the media and the fanbase. Peyton Manning could go into a roid-rage and shoot a linebacker in the head during a playoff game, and fans would still want the game to continue. And the sports reporters would go write some faux-poetic bullshit lamenting how A-rod and steroids are destroying the sanctity of baseball. NFL just has some amazing brain-washers.
ReplyDeleteAs for WWE, everything they're doing is about trying to trickily navigate their way into mainstream attention and sponsorship deals. They absolutely are nowhere near as bullet-proof as other sports, ESPECIALLY the NFL, when it comes to this. Another Benoit-esque incident could easily set them back with that kind of stuff and cost them shitloads of money. Again, it's nowhere near worth it to them just so Angle could pop some star-rating boners with a suplexfest.
Yep.
ReplyDeleteDrunk Driving accident is solved by a "You need to have a CM Punk style bus" rule. Angle's still got a lot of money. He can afford it and WWE could subsidize a bit of it.
ReplyDeleteI dont think he was ever doing pain killers. So ODing is unlikely. He was just a steroid man.
I think ther some money to be had running Hardy in some fresh feuds beyond Punk. He never had a program with Cena, although they did have a one-off match on Raw once.
ReplyDeleteJeff seems to have matured a ton since becoming a dad, hence the lower risk factor.
ReplyDeleteWell, we're not that far post-Benoit and WWE is making more money than they've ever made and have more mainstream, family oriented sponsors driving their revenues, so I don't think that's hurting them at all. Ultimately people just don't have the attentin/empathy to give a shit about what these sports/entertainment ventures do to these guys' bodies, and as long as someone doesn't die in front of us it's not going to put much of a dent in anything. Fuck, the Jovan Belcher thing was totally forgot about a week after the fact!
ReplyDeleteIf he's too physically beat up to safely have a match, I agree they won't touch him. Addiction/DUI issues? Probably not a huge issue.
ReplyDeleteSeems like the ideal situation would be to have Hardy/RVD/Jericho just rotate shifts as the "back-up main eventer" a few months a year each (but all three on for the Rumble to Mania stretch). They can help put talent over and fill gaps in booking when you need a credible opponent to get you through those spring and fall PPVs that no one cares about.
ReplyDeleteHey ive seen that movie before!
ReplyDelete